Do you think non-thinking in toward sleep at night?

[Rich]

So if your dreaming leads you to sleep. Dream on. 😊 -)

But if your dream is stressful, focus on your breathing to relax.

I usually fall asleep quickly but if my body mind is hurting and the breathing focus doesn't work I'll hit the aspirin or ibuprofen.

SAT today

[Banto]

Lucy, thanks! That is my experience too, I appreciate you sharing. You've described what I had hoped to for my own experience, tee hee.
Indeed my curiosity is if anyone can actually fade in to a sleep without dreaming/thought. That point is a familiar one occasionally when drowsy on zafu.
Funny you mention doing zazen in lucid dream, I became aware in my dream about an hour before I was to get up this morning. Interesting what zazen would be like in that state, what would it be? Nothing I'm sure. But it's still interesting to me.



Gassho, Rodney SatToday

[Jakuden]

I am fearful of lucid dreaming, I sort of taught myself to do it when I was young and started having episodes of "sleep paralysis," where you are trying to wake up but can't because your motor functions are still paralyzed in REM sleep! Still happens to me once in awhile.

I think most people normally stage through a few non-REM (non dreaming) cycles when they first fall asleep, before going into REM eventually, and then continue to cycle through those stages with longer and longer periods of REM as the night progresses. However, I seem to remember that if your sleep cycle is off somehow, as if you are sleep deprived, sometimes you could fall right into REM sleep. The most restful sleep stage is not a REM stage though (I don't remember which one it is) I am curious and have to go Google this now. lol

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

[Kairu]

Interesting topic we have here. I've tried to do zazen on the pillow but it doesn't help out. Then I realized that instead of doing zazen like that, I can do zazen in my sleep via lucid dreaming. So I've been keeping a dream journal and set a "trigger" sound on my phone while I sleep. So far nothing yet, but I think it will end up being beneficial to this zen practice.

The only problem I've heard about with lucid dreaming is that you can become disconnected with the "awake" world, want to sleep more, or believe you're in a dream when you're not. I still think the benefits outweigh the repercussions, though. Guess we'll have to see!

Kyle
Sat2day

[Rich]

Dreaming is nothing more than repressed energies. I think the more aware and balanced you become the less you dream. Some repressions especially those tied to fear and anxiety can take a long time to release.

SAT today

[Eishuu]

I've read a few Tibetan Buddhist books on dream yoga but never come across this sort of thing in other Buddhist traditions. I'm sure it must happen. I'd be very interested to hear how you get on Kairu. I think a trigger sound would wake me up. What kind of noise do you use? Jakuden, sleep paralysis can be really horrible. My lucid dreams are usually early morning. I often go straight into dreaming at night...sometimes during zazen if I'm sleepy! Rodney, yes I wonder what zazen would be like in dreams too. The other night I woke up in the dream and tried to see through the illusion of the dream, but it looked so real and vivid. I've done lucid chanting in dreams..that seems easier than meditation for some reason. I'd love to hear if anybody has a dreaming zazen experience.

Gassho
Lucy
Sat today

[Jundo]

Me. I just sleep. Don't try to lucid dream.

Anyway, Buddhism teaches us that this "real" world we perceive is more of a mind created dream than we realize. Daily life is a lucid dream!

Some old Zen guys in the past, like Master Keizan (to a lesser degree, Dogen) were into their dreams, but that is because they thought they were getting messages from Kannon and such telling 'em the future, where to build a monastery etc. It was the 14th century, so such beliefs were common (still are for some people) ...

https://books.google.com/books?id=rbrtd0-WTwsC&pg=PA126&lpg=PA126&dq=keizan+dreams&source=bl&ots=RHr36S2CGd&sig=qqctvuDrhy71HNf93mZ49ju--E4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjUyI_I9czKAhWB1R4KHU-JBkUQ6AEIJDAB#v=onepage&q=keizan%20dreams&f=false

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

[Jundo]

Me. I just sleep. Don't try to lucid dream.

Anyway, Buddhism teaches us that this "real" world we perceive is more of a mind created dream than we realize. Daily life is a lucid dream!

Some old Zen guys in the past, like Master Keizan (to a lesser degree, Dogen) were into their dreams, but that is because they thought they were getting messages from Kannon and such telling him the future, where to build his monastery etc. It was the 14th century, so such beliefs were common (still are for some people) ...

https://books.google.com/books?id=rbrtd0-WTwsC&pg=PA126&lpg=PA126&dq=keizan+dreams&source=bl&ots=RHr36S2CGd&sig=qqctvuDrhy71HNf93mZ49ju--E4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjUyI_I9czKAhWB1R4KHU-JBkUQ6AEIJDAB#v=onepage&q=keizan%20dreams&f=false

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

[Mp]

Me. I just sleep.

Yuppers, me too!

Gassho
Shingen

#sattoday

[RichardH]

Sometimes when i wake in the morning and there is time to drift, there is a state of wakefulness, but discursive thinking is not active. The body is still heavy and completely at rest. In those moments the brightest sense is hearing. There are just the ambient sounds of the house and neighbourhood. It is a very sweet place that comes by itself now and then. When discursive thought is active I tend to alternate between getting caught up and not getting caught up. It depends on the emotional charge of the subject whether it hooks or not. Still,when i get caught up it is not a big deal like "oh no I should not be caught up" . It is just the play of things noticing, not noticing. There is an ordinary feel to it.

Gassho
Daizan

Sat today
Please take anything said with a grain of salt.

[Jishin]

Dreaming is nothing more than repressed energies. I think the more aware and balanced you become the less you dream. Some repressions especially those tied to fear and anxiety can take a long time to release.

SAT today

I think dreams are unfulfilled wishes. Sometimes easy to interpret and sometimes not. When a wish is suffiently resolved then the mind works on something else and there is always something else.

Just my opinion.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Byokan]

Anyway, Buddhism teaches us that this "real" world we perceive is more of a mind created dream than we realize. Daily life is a lucid dream!

Hi All,

this is an interesting subject. I’m a big dreamer, love sleeping, and enjoy remembering and thinking about dreams. I did a little work with lucid dreaming. It’s interesting and fun. I think, for me, fascination with sleep and dreams is part of a fascination with consciousness in all its forms. Sleep, dreams, coma, altered states, TBI, drug experiences, kensho, brain mapping, psychology, near-death experiences, etc., all are really interesting. Ultimately, what I take away from it all is the realization of how relative, contingent and unreliable is our usual daily experience. We really do create most of what we think we are experiencing. What we take to be objective reality is very, very subjective. There’s no there, there.


We wake from our sleeping dreams into this world. When we go to sleep we wake from our waking dreams into that world. Waking up is when you realize -- in any context -- “oh, I was mistaking this for reality, but now I see more clearly that there’s a larger/deeper/realer/revealed reality to be perceived.” But our perception of reality is always contingent on the conditions at that time. None is really more “real” than any other. Whatever you’re experiencing right now feels like the real reality.


In daily life, I guess what I carry forward from all this is the idea that once we catch on to this subjectivity, we find a great freedom and a great responsibility to shape our reality in a wholesome way as far as possible.


Shikantaza, maybe, is allowing ourselves to rest into clear awareness that is beyond all those layers of distinction, and yet encompasses them all.

Sweet dreams. Oh, and to answer the original question, sometimes I do a little zazen on the pillow, just to quiet the monkey, but for me falling asleep seems to be it's own thing, more like letting the mind drift... like Rodney said, as if dreaming is the onramp of sleep.

Gassho
Byōkan
sat today

[Daijo]

I wonder why I fall asleep so easily while watching a good movie, but as soon as I attempt to go to bed with the intention of sleep I just stare at the ceiling for hours wide awake!

any thoughts on that Jundo?

[Jishin]

I wonder why I fall asleep so easily while watching a good movie, but as soon as I attempt to go to bed with the intention of sleep I just stare at the ceiling for hours wide awake!

any thoughts on that Jundo?

I am not Jundo but I would say that there are too many variables to consider to come up with an answer in this forum.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Rich]

I wonder why I fall asleep so easily while watching a good movie, but as soon as I attempt to go to bed with the intention of sleep I just stare at the ceiling for hours wide awake!

any thoughts on that Jundo?

I'm not Jundo either but isn't it interesting that when you don't intend or want sleep you get it, but when you want it you don't get it.

SAT today