Enlightenment experience

[Choboku]

I am seeking insight- Today, while going about my day, I had what I would consider an enlightenment experience. I had a sudden understanding of life, death, permanence and impermanence, and the finality of things. It was very scary and fascinating at the same time, and the overwhelming part of the feeling left fairly quickly.

Sat today,
Adam

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[Jundo]

Hi Adam,

My usual "rule of thumb" on such timeless moments is:

If it is truly worthwhile, it will leave you with good wisdom that will have some positive effects in your life that will stay with you, and truly help you see a bit beyond our petty little self and its hungers. This especially becomes clear when "life hits the fan" in the future, and the insights now color how we experience life's ups and downs.

On the other hand, if not then it is just a passing fancy ...

... and whatever the case, just learn from such, then move on, neither hungering for the experience to repeat, nor running from the experience ... and just continue one's practice.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jundo]

PS - Maybe others here might comments on whether they have had such experiences during their years of practice, and whether there were lasting effects on this life.

I sure have (or I wouldn't be bothering with all we do around here ), and it is most obvious to me at the hard times in life, anything from when my daughter was near death in the hospital, I had cancer, just when I had a flat tire in the rain or a car accident ... and I felt that I could experience the wholeness and peace that holds all that mess, fear, frustration and trouble.

I tried to express the "life two ways as one" of those terrible times here:

Two eyes open together
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...-open-together

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jishin]

I am seeking insight- Today, while going about my day, I had what I would consider an enlightenment experience. I had a sudden understanding of life, death, permanence and impermanence, and the finality of things. It was very scary and fascinating at the same time, and the overwhelming part of the feeling left fairly quickly.

Sat today,
Adam

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Hi,

If your experience can be put into words then that is not it.

My 2 cents.

Respectfully submitted,

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

[Horin]

Hey Adam,
it's great to encounter these states of mind. I also had experienced some of them, and before I met Jundo, I was trying to experience these states again and again, because I was so much impressed by them. So, I tried to stabilize them, thought, the goal must be to have these states as a permanent "awakening". And it was silly, every time they went, I was disappointed and was longing for more. Finally, Jundo made clear that these states are just as impermanent as any other state and we just sit through them, all of the experiences are Zazen, even the ordinary ones, those when thoughts arise are perfectly fine. So, as jundo said, appreciate these special states and you might learn from them.

I was reading the sandokai the other day and it reminds me of embracing both the form and the formless, the world and the absolute or the duality and the non-duality..

“To be attached to things is illusion; To encounter the absolute is not yet enlightenment.”

Neither to cling on the world nor sticking in the absolute is the way and with our practice, we encouter two sides of the same coin, the truth of relativity, of duality, where things are related, interdepended, caused and conditioned, but also something beyond... Something absolute, where nothing is seperated from another, everything is part of the same oneness. And with our practice we bring both aspects into harmony

“Ordinary life fits the absolute as a box and its lid. The absolute works together with the relative like two arrows meeting in mid-air.”
Well... at least this is my understanding of it..

Gassho

Ben

Stlah



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[Jundo]

Hi,

If your experience can be put into words then that is not it.

My 2 cents.

That is not true.

Words don't quite capture it, just like the words "Grand Canyon" or "mom" or "chocolate" cannot ever really get all the wonder, emotions and sweetness of each of those ... but Zen folks are pretty good about creatively using words, images, poetry, shouts and circles in the air or whatever is handy to get as close as one can, or at least a taste.

Otherwise, what was someone like Master Dogen rambling on about in all those pages and pages of magical prose in Shobogenzo?

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jishin]

That is not true.

Words don't quite capture it, just like the words "Grand Canyon" or "mom" or "chocolate" cannot ever really get all the wonder, emotions and sweetness of each of those ... but Zen folks are pretty good about creatively using words, images, poetry, shouts and circles in the air or whatever is handy to get as close as one can, or at least a taste.

Otherwise, what was someone like Master Dogen rambling on about in all those pages and pages of magical prose in Shobogenzo?

Gassho, J

STLah

"The Tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.

The unnamable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin
of all particular things." - Tao The Ching

If it can be talked about it, it's not it but let's go on and talk about it because it's the best that we can do.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

[Risho]

Adam,

I'm just a lay practitioner that knows nothing about nothing, and I wholeheartedly mean that.

These are some things I ask myself, and I know it seems to contract that "zen is not good for anything", but that is not what I mean here. What will you do with that experience? Will you use it to make you better (kinder, more helpful, doing hard things and not running from them)? Will you use it to help you make your life more meaningful?

There is something with this pratice that helps us live this life like a great experiment; it softens our edges, and I don't mean makes us weak. I mean it allows us to live almost like a scientist; we have to come into situations with "knowledge" but as we learn new things we need to adjust. Practice helps me do that. Practice makes me loosen my grip on my strongly held beliefs and not take things too personally. There are experiences that happen during practice - but when you stare at a wall or if you are in the "flow" of whatever you are doing if you've been doing it long enough, your mind does crazy things. It doesn't mean it's good or bad or we should latch on or reject.

So we are limited by words - it cannot capture everything but we have to use something, and we are stuck with them, so we have to try.

I find that although there is no goal in practice - my life is an experiment meaning coming into every day as a beginner - even while still having experience. For instance, I love working out. Every workout, you can come into it as something that's routine and over time things become easy, but if you really try to challenge yourself consistently you will feel like a beginner always because you are doing more, lifting more etc.

No matter what we know - we are always beginners because we don't know much. We are always learning, always seeing new perspectives, or I should say those things are available to a flexible mind.

All of this is hard to articulate but I think the key point with this (at least for me) is that we learn from this practice (as Jundo mentioned) and not get too hung up on experiences but try to apply anything that we learn and not worry to much about it.

We are all going to die, sooner than we'd all like; I know that's sobering from one perspective, but it also makes our lives more meaningful. How will you be remembered?

Gassho

Rish
-stlah

[Jundo]

If it can be talked about it, it's not it but let's go on and talk about it because it's the best that we can do.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

Exactly. That's why some fool grabbed a pen and wrote the Tao The Ching.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Kokuu]

I'm just a lay practitioner that knows nothing about nothing, and I wholeheartedly mean that.

I can totally vouch for Risho on this

There is something with this pratice that helps us live this life like a great experiment; it softens our edges, and I don't mean makes us weak. I mean it allows us to live almost like a scientist; we have to come into situations with "knowledge" but as we learn new things we need to adjust. Practice helps me do that. Practice makes me loosen my grip on my strongly held beliefs and not take things too personally. There are experiences that happen during practice - but when you stare at a wall or if you are in the "flow" of whatever you are doing if you've been doing it long enough, your mind does crazy things. It doesn't mean it's good or bad or we should latch on or reject.

So we are limited by words - it cannot capture everything but we have to use something, and we are stuck with them, so we have to try.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Risho]

hahahah thanks Kokuu

gassho

Rish
-stlah

[Kaiku]

Words don't quite capture it, just like the words "Grand Canyon" or "mom" or "chocolate" cannot ever really get all the wonder, emotions and sweetness of each of those ... but Zen folks are pretty good about creatively using words, images, poetry, shouts and circles in the air or whatever is handy to get as close as one can, or at least a taste.

Otherwise, what was someone like Master Dogen rambling on about in all those pages and pages of magical prose in Shobogenzo?

Gassho, J

STLah

I find the more I experience the experiences and nonexperiences as practice deepens there is more silence from me and the world. But wonderful words do come like a dance of poetry. Explain the unexplainable, how wonderful!

Ghasso
Bobby
SatTodayLAH


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[Ryumon]

I am seeking insight- Today, while going about my day, I had what I would consider an enlightenment experience. I had a sudden understanding of life, death, permanence and impermanence, and the finality of things. It was very scary and fascinating at the same time, and the overwhelming part of the feeling left fairly quickly.

Whatevs. Don't seek. Just move on.

Gassho,

Kirk

sat

[Sekishi]

Exactly. That's why some fool grabbed a pen and wrote the Tao The Ching.

Nine bows.

Sekishi
#sat

[serenewolf]

An enlightenment experience is what brought me here and i suspect this will be more than three sentances but i will try to keep it brief. I was suffering from severe depression for 20 years before i decided to use meditation to face my past and pain. I was able to figure out how the mind works and why people do what they do. When i opened my eyes the world seemed brighter and my depression was gone. What a joyous feeling! I understood the world in a new way and then found buddhism which spoke of many of the lessons i had learned, which led me to Shokai, who led me to Treeleaf.
Gassho
David
Sat

[Jishin]

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

[Rich]

Have had many mindblowing experiences in my life.
But always returned to just sitting, just being.
That’s the simple insight attained.

Sat

[Doshin]

I am still waiting...sort of.

Doshin
St

[Risho]

Have had many mindblowing experiences in my life.
But always returned to just sitting, just being.
That’s the simple insight attained.

Sat

Rich - you are a treasure - you always say so much with so few sentences.

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

[Choboku]

I appreciate all of the shared wisdom. I plan to sit and let these things come and go.

Sat today
Adam

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[Seikan]

I was initially drawn to Buddhism and Zen (in particular) decades ago by the romantic notion of obtaining an earth-shattering, mind-blowing enlightenment experience that would forever change me in an instant (all credit for that goes to Philip Kapleau's book "Three Pillars of Zen").

Over the years, the desire for a particular experience has dimmed (although I can't deny that it's still lingering in the shadows of my mind), and I've developed a far greater appreciation for Zazen as both the means and the end.

So, still no mind-blowing experiences to speak of, but if I ever do have one, that would be nice, and if I never have one, that would be nice too.

Gassho,
Rob

-st-


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[Rich]

Rich - you are a treasure - you always say so much with so few sentences.

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

Thanks. Been writing 5-7-5 haiku for a few years so have had lots of practice 😀🙏

[Jundo]

I was initially drawn to Buddhism and Zen (in particular) decades ago by the romantic notion of obtaining an earth-shattering, mind-blowing enlightenment experience that would forever change me in an instant (all credit for that goes to Philip Kapleau's book "Three Pillars of Zen").

One of the few Zen books I specially DO NOT recommend just for that reason, and it has done so much damage over the decades sending people into some pressure cooker practice in a race for big booming Kenshos!

Gassho, J

STLah

[Onkai]

I haven't had any big experiences. When I started just sitting, I became aware of some very practical things. Sitting has changed me since then, but like water changing a rock by its movement.

Gassho,
Onkai
Sat/lah

[Jinyo]

I haven't had any big experiences. When I started just sitting, I became aware of some very practical things. Sitting has changed me since then, but like water changing a rock by its movement.

Gassho,
Onkai
Sat/lah

Lovely - pretty much how I feel too.



Jinyo

sat today

[Shoki]

One of the few Zen books I specially DO NOT recommend just for that reason, and it has done so much damage over the decades sending people into some pressure cooker practice in a race for big booming Kenshos!

Gassho, J

STLah

As soon as The Three Pillars of Zen came up I knew Jundo was going to get fired up! I can't say I ever had any super dramatic enlightenment experiences as they're more like moments of clarity and while sitting, cutting tomatoes or brushing my teeth. I always favored Shunryu Suzuki's approach who said it "nothing special."

Gassho
STlah
Shoki

[Doshin]

I haven't had any big experiences. When I started just sitting, I became aware of some very practical things. Sitting has changed me since then, but like water changing a rock by its movement.

Gassho,
Onkai
Sat/lah

You said what I meant above but so much more beautifully. Decades ago I had great expectations but now....”like water changing a rock by its movement” will become my answer. Thank you.

Doshin
St

[Jundo]

As soon as The Three Pillars of Zen came up I knew Jundo was going to get fired up! I can't say I ever had any super dramatic enlightenment experiences as they're more like moments of clarity and while sitting, cutting tomatoes or brushing my teeth. I always favored Shunryu Suzuki's approach who said it "nothing special."

Gassho
STlah
Shoki

When I say that, people sometimes take me to mean that there is no "Kensho" or "enlightenment" to be attained through Buddhist practice, but that is not my point at all. Of course there is, or this would not be Zen! I only mean that, in our Soto way, it is not something to be run after, pushed hard for as a passing "mind blowing" experience in which we momentarily become "one with the universe" (although that happens too, and in fact, can happen with psychedelic drug experiences maybe more easily than through meditation).

It is rather that, for many people, the hard borders which separate the "self" and the "not self" world may soften more subtly, slowly, less in "one-off" mind blowing experience of the walls tumbling down (although sometimes it happens too Soto folks too, as perhaps some of the stories in this thread show), and more as a much more subtle sense deep in the bones of the whole world flowing through us and all things (the sound of the symphony of the universe that is us too, and which sweeps us in and is vibrating as us, which I wrote about in another post today).

There is a story in Soto Zen that one can get just as wet walking slowly through a foggy mist in one's robes walking a path as one can standing under a waterfall, for wet is wet.

Also, enlightenment for Soto Zen folks (the Rinzai Zen folks) is what happens after such realization, how one lives one's life from that point on incorporating the realizing in one's life ... not just the realization of the wholeness itself.

Gassho, J

(more than three sentences for this)

PS - Doshin, the environmentalist, somehow feels this standing in the desert and mountains with the lizards, I know, and I am sure he sometimes feels the desert and mountains and lizards in him.

[Seikan]

Full disclosure statement: Having listened to all of Jundo and Kirk's podcasts, I knew that mentioning Three Pillars was bound to raise an eyebrow or two, but I still wanted to mention it in context as it was the book that introduced me to Zen back in my college years (early 90s).

That said, I'm very glad to have ultimately found my way to the Soto world as the practice of always striving for some grand enlightenment experience was too stressful.

Instead of blasting a stone with a high-pressure water jet to reshape it, I much prefer Onkai's metaphor of letting the water gently reshape the stone over time.

Gassho,
Rob

-st-


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[Jundo]

Instead of blasting a stone with a high-pressure water jet to reshape it, I much prefer Onkai's metaphor of letting the water gently reshape the stone over time.

Yes, that's another very common metaphor that Soto folks use, that we pass through the mountain like water flowing through the cracks and spaces, being the mountain's flowing itself, rather than blowing a hole through with TNT.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jakuden]

”like water changing a rock by its movement” will become my answer.

Doshin
St

Same here!! Thank you Onkai.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

[Onkai]

Yes, that's another very common metaphor that Soto folks use, that we pass through the mountain like water flowing through the cracks and spaces, being the mountain's flowing itself, rather than blowing a hole through with TNT.

Gassho, J

STLah

I'm glad that people liked the metaphor of the water on rock. It isn't original but like many things, I don't remember where I came across it - Dogen? Jundo? Somewhere else?
I'm sorry I don't have the source.

Gassho,
Onkai
Sat

[Jundo]

Someone posted on Facebook a very nice quote from Uchiyama Roshi from a teaching he offered on Shobogenzo-Shoaku-Makusa ....

"Perhaps you might be disposed to think that since a person has been practicing a long time, surely they must be in possession of the virtue or power of practice. Unfortunately, there is no such thing as a totally complete practitioner. There just aren't manufactured, "satorized" human beings. You know, that satori thing is very fast: it runs away very quickly. The satori you may have bagged in the morning is already beginning to smell bad by noontime. You have no choice but to get rid of this morning's satori that same morning. It is not like something you would put in the refrigerator thinking you will snack on it later on in the day. It only comes raw, uncooked!"

Uchiyama Roshi



Gassho, J

STLah

[Doshin]

Words to ponder

Doshin
St

[Onkai]

Someone posted a very nice quote from Uchiyama Roshi from a teaching he offered on Shobogenzo-Shoaku-Makusa ....


"Perhaps you might be disposed to think that since a person has been practicing a long time, surely they must be in possession of the virtue or power of practice. Unfortunately, there is no such thing as a totally complete practitioner. There just aren't manufactured, "satorized" human beings. You know, that satori thing is very fast: it runs away very quickly. The satori you may have bagged in the morning is already beginning to smell bad by noontime. You have no choice but to get rid of this morning's satori that same morning. It is not like something you would put in the refrigerator thinking you will snack on it later on in the day. It only comes raw, uncooked!"

Uchiyama Roshi



Gassho, J

STLah

Love it!

Gassho,
Onkai
Sat/lah

[Tairin]

Love it!

Gassho,
Onkai
Sat/lah

Me too. I think I’ll keep that handy.


Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Heiso]

Sitting has changed me since then, but like water changing a rock by its movement

[Tosei]

I had one such moment--that seemed much longer--early in my practice. It has never repeated itself, and although I keep an eye (one of three?) open in case it happens again, I didn't DO anything to bring it about the first time. That seems like a fine way to proceed.

Gassho,

Peter

>satoday

[Jundo]

Bro. Brad Warner has a pretty good talk today on such experiences, and our teacher Nishijima's and other Zen teachers' attitudes toward such ...



Gassho, Jundo

STLah

PS - His related talk from the day before, on "Zazen is good for nothing," is good for something too ...

[StoBird]

It’s a challenge for us newbies to ignore talks of a tempting enlightenment, Kensho, or satori fast track. There seem to be two options for us:

to sit sweating, with an iron ball in our throats, saying “muuuuu,” for hours on end, feeling something that might be satori and then having a teacher invalidate our experience, sitting again and feeling worse than before...

VERSUS

to actually just sit, and be quiet as much as possible, to have trust in the priceless bright pearl of wholeness and completeness, to say “enough” to greed, smile with equanimity and contentment and acknowledge that everyday is a “good” day, even “bad” ones, etc... etc... etc... and maybe experience “satori” or not.

Due respect to Kapleau, but I’d take the second route any day.

Gassho,
Tom

SAT/LAH


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[Jundo]

It’s a challenge for us newbies to ignore talks of a tempting enlightenment, Kensho, or satori fast track. There seem to be two options for us:

to sit sweating, with an iron ball in our throats, saying “muuuuu,” for hours on end, feeling something that might be satori and then having a teacher invalidate our experience, sitting again and feeling worse than before...

VERSUS

to actually just sit, and be quiet as much as possible, to have trust in the priceless bright pearl of wholeness and completeness, to say “enough” to greed, smile with equanimity and contentment and acknowledge that everyday is a “good” day, even “bad” ones, etc... etc... etc... and maybe experience “satori” or not.

[Tairin]

Well said Tom and I am with you on that. My early days of Zen started down the Koan / satori route based on the centre I joined. Something inside me said it wasn’t the right path for me. I am so glad I discovered the Soto Zen Shikantaza path. It intuitively feels right.


Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Jishin]

Hi,

If enlightenment could be defined by the phrase "that's not it.." then anyone who opens their mouth on this topic is way way off...

Me included.

From a stationary bike fixing to hit the shower for work.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

[StoBird]

Hi,

If enlightenment could be defined by the phrase "that's not it.." then anyone who opens their mouth on this topic is way way off...

Me included.

From a stationary bike fixing to hit the shower for work.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

Also, the impression I get from reading Steve Heine's new book on Dogen, is that Dogen says awakening (as synonymous with the word "enlightenment") is not wasting life. Not wasting life because of a deep knowledge of impermanence and death. I'm a newbie so I hope this is correct and relevant.

Gassho,
Tom

Sat/Lah

[Risho]

Tom - I haven't read that book, but I would reckon that "not wasting life" means doing our best in all circumstances. We know for example that we can't perfectly adhere to the precepts but we do our best.

Gassho

Rish
-stlah

[Kokuu]

If enlightenment could be defined by the phrase "that's not it.." then anyone who opens their mouth on this topic is way way off...

Me included.

There is way off and way off. Although we clearly cannot completely capture awakening in words, there have been pretty good attempts to point to it.

And less good attempts.

Even though every attempt will miss it in some way, that doesn't mean keeping totally schtum as the words of former and current teachers give us a feel of the territory.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Shinshou]

I am seeking insight- Today, while going about my day, I had what I would consider an enlightenment experience. I had a sudden understanding of life, death, permanence and impermanence, and the finality of things. It was very scary and fascinating at the same time, and the overwhelming part of the feeling left fairly quickly.

Sat today,
Adam

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I sure have - from knowing we are more than our bodies, telepathic-type experiences, visions that come true...but in the end, there's nothing to do but let it come, wash over you, and be gone. Then get up, sit, go to work, hug your family, and do some good in the world. What else is there?

Shinshou (Daniel)
Sat Today

[Jishin]

There is way off and way off. Although we clearly cannot completely capture awakening in words, there have been pretty good attempts to point to it.

And less good attempts.

Even though every attempt will miss it in some way, that doesn't mean keeping totally schtum as the words of former and current teachers give us a feel of the territory.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

I am a fool for talking about it.

Gassho, Jishin, ST

[Tairin]

The video Jundo posted above “Mystical Experiences in Zen” is interesting. In it Brad provides a subtle but powerfully different definition of “discriminating” than I had been using as it relates to this practice. Brad’s definition of discriminating is basically “this thing” vs “that thing” vs “the other thing”. Totally makes sense to me. My definition of discriminating was more of the qualitative “this is good” “this is bad” sort of discrimination. That difference makes sense and clears up a number of readings so thank you Brad! A little light bulb went on as I was listening.

Sorry for all the extra sentences.


Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Choboku]

I am a fool for talking about it.

Gassho, Jishin, ST

I am a fool regularly. Its part of my charm.

Sat today,
Adam

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