Violent Media and Right Thought

[Bokugan]

I was able to find a wonderful thread started by Kyonin here: Violence in Entertainment

It was very helpful, but I have a sort of followup question that aligns with developing more sensitivity to violent media. This might be super obvious and is clearly subjective (ie what is considered violent media might vary from person to person). Even so, I would be interested in opinions if anyone has the time and feels inclined to share

My question(s): In thinking on the eightfold path, specifically Right Thought, would consuming violent media be advised against? Put another way, as a Buddhist, is violent media something that should be abstained from?

For me, I am specifically thinking on violent music and film. Like Kyonin mentions in the thread he started, after around 6-7 months of practice I too find that there are certain media preferences, especially music, that are shifting for me. Much of the violent music I once listened to on a regular basis just isn't appealing anymore. I'm also noticing that types of shows and films I once watched are a struggle at times when they have gratuitous violence.

But still, my interest hasn't completely dropped off on these things. I don't want to write a book here, but one strong example is music. I still listen to some stuff that elicits an aggressive emotion/energy. Such material almost always contains violent lyrics and imagery (black metal and certain industrial artists for example). I enjoy it during a workout, while driving, or making art... but I feel like the aggressive/negative feelings I get from listening to it works against the ideal of Right Thought.

Maybe as time goes my interest in such things will continue to wane. I guess the main reason I am curious is that I wonder if keeping such media in my life (which is all part of the practice -- not just zen on the zafu, but in all things; all of life) is counterproductive to the practice.

Thank you for reading!

Gassho,

Ryan S
Sat Today

[Tairin]

Anger breeds anger. Violence breeds violence. There is already enough of it in the world. I don’t need to expose myself to movies, music, news etc that are just going to make me feel anxious and angry. That doesn’t mean I will bury my head in the sand either. Middle way.


Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Bokugan]

Anger breeds anger. Violence breeds violence. There is already enough of it in the world. I don’t need to expose myself to movies, music, news etc that are just going to make me feel anxious and angry. That doesn’t mean I will bury my head in the sand either. Middle way.


Tairin
Sat today and lah

Thank you Tairin.

Your line of thought feels right. I never realized what emotions came with the energy I would feel from such music as starkly as I do now. Granted, I am not a violent person whatsoever -- but the "feel" is there with the rise the music gives, if that makes sense.

That is what brought this question to mind a few weeks ago. It definitely has me asking "what am I doing to myself by consuming such things?"

I appreciate your response

Gassho

Ryan
Sat Today

[Tairin]

I don’t know how old you are but definitely when I was younger I was a frustrated, angry, depressed person (not violent though). I fed that energy by listening to violent, angry and depressing music. It is like a spiral. One feeding the other.

The constant news cycle of negativity can also feed that energy. I find that I need to take relatively frequent breaks from current events.

This practice has helped immensely. Reciting Metta helps me. Jundo’s insistence on putting controversial figures such as a certain president on the altar and asking us to bow helps me.

I can’t recall exactly the quote but some text we read each year for the Precepts hits on this directly. Just like we are what we eat. We can become what we consume in terms of thoughts and ideas.


Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Bokugan]

I'm late 30s, but it took me a very long time to grow and deal with some issues. It sounds like we have a similar past with music. I was much the same, and even most all of my personal art and music from that period reflect a lot of angst and despression. As a child of the 90s, angsty, violent, and depressing music was plentiful. It certainly filled a void for me. I carried it a long time, and I now think part of the continued appeal for me is an old, comfortable familiarity. Like a bad habit? I didn't think about it like that until now.

Again, I deeply appreciate your insight! Thank you.

Gassho

Ryan S
Sat Today

[Geika]

If something doesn't make me feel good, then I try to avoid it. For example, I love Tarantino movies, but I seem to have trouble with war movies. Then again, I have watched Apocalypse Now and Full Metal Jacket dozens of times. For a lot of people, it is different. Like how some people can take a drink and others cannot touch alcohol because they lose control. If I notice that something I indulge in results in negative feelings or behavior, that is what I avoid.

Gassho
Sat today, lah

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[Bokugan]

If I notice that something I indulge in results in negative feelings or behavior, that is what I avoid.

I dig that, and maybe that is what I am trying to ultimately figure out. What kind of feeling does it leave me with?

It can feel invigorating, but definitely not always positive. There is plenty of alternative media that is equally invigorating/exciting/etc. sans the negative feelings. Being aware of the effects media has on me and letting that be a guide would be ideal. Such things are so long engrained in my life that it seems daunting... but honestly, realizing it is something to work on is a good start.

Thank you

Gassho
Ryan
Sat Today

[Seikan]

This is a very timely thread as I was just discussing something similar with my wife the other day. I have a large collection of films that I never watch anymore, and I was just realizing the other day how so many of them contain what I would now classify as gratuitous violence—and not necessarily physical violence, but some have what I would call verbal or emotional violence.

That said, I will still watch certain films (e.g., Saving Private Ryan) that incorporate violence as a critical part of the story. I see these films as more educational and as providing strong evidence for the pitfalls of violence. I'm not at all entertained by the violence, in fact I'm disgusted by it, but it serves as a valuable reminder of the darker side of our humanity. I imagine that different media will resonate with each of us in a similar manner, but often for different reasons.

On a similar note, I tend to avoid the TV news as they always focus on the violence and negativity of the day ("if it bleeds, it leads"). I don't bury my head in the sand when it comes to the news of the day, I just prefer a more balanced view gleaned from more thorough news agencies.

Thank you Ryan for starting this discussion. I'm looking forward to the thoughts of others here as well.

Gassho,
Rob

SatToday


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[Jundo]

Ryan,

When I do see extremely violent media these days (it is so hard to avoid), I take it as a glimpse into "samsara," a lesson in the diseases of anger and violence that the Buddha's medicine is meant to treat. In the old days, 150 years ago in our grand-grand parents' times, 800 years ago in Dogen's time, people may have lived and witnessed much more actual violence in daily life that most westerners do now (it is true, and we are actually much more sheltered now).

https://ourworldindata.org/ethnograp...violent-deaths

"Game of Thrones" was not just a TV show, but real life for our ancestors (well, perhaps without the zombies and actual dragons ).

So, I take it as "study," much as some Buddhist meditators in Asia head to graveyards to sit with death. It is not something to do each day perhaps, but when death and violence are seen ... witness and learn.

However, it is also fine to turn away from the excess violence that the media tries to force on us. I just don't find watching others suffer to be entertaining. Much of it is my Buddhist practice, and some is perhaps just getting older (movie and musical tastes tend to mellow a bit, and I am no longer the angry 16 year old with hormones raging.) If someone does need to watch violence, I would much rather have people do so as an outlet for their inner animals rather than to do so on the city streets. Of course, it would be a nicer world if we could do away with both fictional and non-fictional violence in our society.

In a monastery, they would close the doors to the outside world, and live in non-violence within their walls. It is fine to do so too with media. However, neither shut your eyes to the outside world. If you see violence in media or (hopefully not) in flesh and blood life, witness and learn. It is samsara. Perhaps do what you can as one citizen and consumer to lessen violence in our media and in life. After all, the game, movie and TV producers are just selling the drugs that people want to buy and tune in to watch.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Bokugan]

That said, I will still watch certain films (e.g., Saving Private Ryan) that incorporate violence as a critical part of the story. I see these films as more educational and as providing strong evidence for the pitfalls of violence. I'm not at all entertained by the violence, in fact I'm disgusted by it, but it serves as a valuable reminder of the darker side of our humanity. I imagine that different media will resonate with each of us in a similar manner, but often for different reasons.

Rob - thank you for sharing this! Excellent point. This leads in to the advice Jundo shared quite well.

Ryan,

When I do see extremely violent media these days (it is so hard to avoid), I take it as a glimpse into "samsara," a lesson in the diseases of anger and violence that the Buddha's medicine is meant to treat. In the old days, 150 years ago in our grand-grand parents' times, 800 years ago in Dogen's time, people may have lived and witnessed much more actual violence in daily life that most westerners do now (it is true, and we are actually much more sheltered now).

https://ourworldindata.org/ethnograp...violent-deaths

"Game of Thrones" was not just a TV show, but real life for our ancestors (well, perhaps without the zombies and actual dragons ).

So, I take it as "study," much as some Buddhist meditators in Asia head to graveyards to sit with death. It is not something to do each day perhaps, but when death and violence are seen ... witness and learn.

However, it is also fine to turn away from the excess violence that the media tries to force on us. I just don't find watching others suffer to be entertaining. Much of it is my Buddhist practice, and some is perhaps just getting older (movie and musical tastes tend to mellow a bit, and I am no longer the angry 16 year old with hormones raging.) If someone does need to watch violence, I would much rather have people do so as an outlet for their inner animals rather than to do so on the city streets. Of course, it would be a nicer world if we could do away with both fictional and non-fictional violence in our society.

In a monastery, they would close the doors to the outside world, and live in non-violence within their walls. It is fine to do so too with media. However, neither shut your eyes to the outside world. If you see violence in media or (hopefully not) in flesh and blood life, witness and learn. It is samsara. Perhaps do what you can as one citizen and consumer to lessen violence in our media and in life. After all, the game, movie and TV producers are just selling the drugs that people want to buy and tune in to watch.

Gassho, J

STLah

Jundo,

That gave me better perspective on this. Thank you!

Like Rob's example of disliking violence but appreciating lessons it presents in films like Saving Private Ryan, I see how it could be a deep learning experience to glimpse samsara as you say. I hadn't fully considered that aspect, at least not looking at seeing violence as a learning experience (as unfortunate as it is). And you are right, our lives are so different and sheltered compared to 150 (let alone 800!) years ago. Witnessing violence is certainly not new.

What this takes me to is not fully turning away from violence in media (film, music, news, etc.), but carefully evaluating media that seems gratuitously violent for violence's sake (or otherwise one-dimensionally negative) and gauging what value it brings and what effect it has on me. At that point it is very personal and totally a judgement call.

I surrounded myself with it for many years and I feel it is time to sort of shed some of it away, if that makes sense.

Also, working to lessen violence is good advice. I like the idea of being active.

This has all been so helpful. I appreciate everyone taking time to share some thoughts.

Gassho,

Ryan S
Sat Today

[Shinshi]

I have always been fond of the gardening analogy of life. Essentially you reap what you sow.

Thich Nhat Hanh has some excellent writing on this which I really like. To kind of paraphrase, you have a store consciousness that contains seeds of emotions. Those seeds can grow into emotional states like happiness or anger. Some people may have more of one kind of seed than another or some with seeds that grow more easily. But we are the gardener of our emotional garden. And we can choose what we water and what we encourage to grow. What we choose to nurture will impact what grows in our garden. Violence nurtures/water seeds of violence. Loving kindness nurtures seeds of loving kindness.

And if we aren't paying attention all kinds of seeds can be watered by what we encounter during our lives. We may not even be paying attention as it happens. In thinking about this yesterday I realized that I have been exposing myself to a lot of anger and aggression via the media. Much of it may be justified but I realized that it is still effecting my emotional state at some level and I either need to be exposed to less of it, or make sure it is balanced by other experiences.

So I would say try to be mindful tending your garden. Try to watch how what you experience impacts how your garden is growing.

Gassho,

Shinshi

[Bokugan]

So I would say try to be mindful tending your garden. Try to watch how what you experience impacts how your garden is growing.

That is a very good analogy! Thank you, Shinshi.

I may track down the book containing the writing you paraphrased from Thich Nhat Han. Do you remember if it was from Taming the Tiger Within? I did a little digging and I think that might be the one.

Gassho

Ryan
Sat Today

[Bokucho]

This is a very timely thread as I was just discussing something similar with my wife the other day. I have a large collection of films that I never watch anymore, and I was just realizing the other day how so many of them contain what I would now classify as gratuitous violence—and not necessarily physical violence, but some have what I would call verbal or emotional violence.

That said, I will still watch certain films (e.g., Saving Private Ryan) that incorporate violence as a critical part of the story. I see these films as more educational and as providing strong evidence for the pitfalls of violence. I'm not at all entertained by the violence, in fact I'm disgusted by it, but it serves as a valuable reminder of the darker side of our humanity. I imagine that different media will resonate with each of us in a similar manner, but often for different reasons.

This is exactly how I feel about it as well. Humans have a long history of violence and sometimes it is a good reminder just what humans are capable of if they remain ignorant or separate from the world. I personally read a lot of fantasy books, and some contain some pretty graphic violence (A Song of Ice and Fire comes to mind). I often think about how close we are evolutionary to the violent ancestors of the past. We've all still got some level of inherent violence in our DNA, and just like everything else, it's a part of this realm of suffering. I don't enjoy the glorification or excessive nature of violence, but it's a reality that many have lived through and it's part of who we are as a species. Sometimes it can be a good reminder (for me at least) that everyone has some capability to do violence, even if it's verbal or mental, it's still violence because that's part of the cost of admission for being a human. With a reminder every now and again it helps keep things in perspective.

Gassho,

Joshua
SatToday/LaH

[Shinshi]

That is a very good analogy! Thank you, Shinshi.

I may track down the book containing the writing you paraphrased from Thich Nhat Han. Do you remember if it was from Taming the Tiger Within? I did a little digging and I think that might be the one.

Gassho

Ryan
Sat Today

I haven't read Taming the Tiger Within. I know he writes about it in Understanding Our Mind and in Breath, Know You Are Alive!. If I get the chance later I'll look through some of my books to see if I can find any other references. I know there is stuff online as well as well as some videos.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Shinshi]

I haven't read Taming the Tiger Within. I know he writes about it in Understanding Our Mind and in Breath, Know You Are Alive!. If I get the chance later I'll look through some of my books to see if I can find any other references. I know there is stuff online as well as well as some videos.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

Quoting myself, is that like talking to yourself?

I went through the books I own and this topic is also discussed in:

Buddha Mind, Buddha Body - Walking toward enlightenment.
Transforming the Base
The Path of Emancipation
The Heart of the Buddha's teaching.

Also Peace Is Every Step is a compilation of two texts, one of which is Breath, Know You Are Alive! so that is another option.

There is also a section in Essential Writings that covers this as well. Also a compilation.

It might be covered in other texts, but it is addressed in the above.

Hope this Helps.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Kyonin]

Hi Ryan,

Thank you for bringing up that ol'post of mine. I still think like I did back then. I have found that violence in entertainment is hard for me to swallow, but my mind works rather oddly.

I used to love metal and industrial, but I can't take the violence any more. I listen to that from time to time, but I now go for more symphonic and epic stuff like Blind Guardian. Now I listen more to jazz and blues than anything else. Jazz in particular seems very compatible with Zen practice. And I guess I'm just old.

In movies and series, I go with science fiction like Star Trek. I also like super hero stuff like The Flash or The Arrow. There's violence in them, but there's always a good and heroic reason for it. I watch a lot of documentaries.

In videogames I love to be the hero and kill monsters or demons or robots. It's satisfying, but I would never do that kind of stuff in real life.

At the end I think it all comes down to intention and to go with whatever makes you feel at peace.

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAH

[Shoki]

For me it depends on the person involved and context. I'm not really too familiar with some of the violent music around today but back in the Stone Age when I was a teenager there were a lot of violent references in music. Neil Young; Down By the River (I shot my baby. Shot her dead). Jimi Hendrix; Hey Joe (I'm going down to shoot my old lady), etc. It had no effect on me. They were just stories about people. Characters. But if I were a violent psychopath maybe they would have inspired me to kill somebody. I don't know. Although this type of music is not as aggressive and in your face of some stuff that came later. I remember musicians testifying before Congress in the '80s who were trying to convince the lawmakers you'd have to be violent to begin with to take this music to violent action. Judas Priest actually were charged and acquitted with contributing to a suicide.

As for movies, if they're cheap slasher movies with gratuitous violence that's one thing. Then there's a move like The Godfather. Graphic violence about murderers but an epic film. One of the greatest ever. There is a moral to the story. I saw a video once of a film maker's analysis of the movie. Especially the restaurant scene. The one where Al Pacino shoots Solozzo and McCluskey at the table. It's pretty bloody and graphic. But it's not stupid. People analyzed the scene from a film maker's view. How the sound of the train approaching heightens the tension before the shooting. How Michael Corleone searching for the gun looks for a minute like he might not find it. Then what would he do? How Solozzo looks a little suspicious while clueless McCluskey is stuffing his face with veal. (It's the best in the city). A detached technical analysis. Not people getting their jollies over watching people die. Maybe if I was some gangster wanna be I'd think; Cool. I'd like to do that. How do these movies and music make you feel? Will it lead to bad thoughts and actions or not?

Gassho
STlah
James

[Bokugan]

Again, I deeply appreciate everyone sharing their thoughts!

I agree Joshua, having that reminder every once in a while of what humans are capable of can help keep things in perspective.

Quoting myself, is that like talking to yourself?

I went through the books I own and this topic is also discussed in:

Buddha Mind, Buddha Body - Walking toward enlightenment.
Transforming the Base
The Path of Emancipation
The Heart of the Buddha's teaching.

Also Peace Is Every Step is a compilation of two texts, one of which is Breath, Know You Are Alive! so that is another option.

There is also a section in Essential Writings that covers this as well. Also a compilation.

It might be covered in other texts, but it is addressed in the above.

Hope this Helps.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

Hi Shinshi,

That is very helpful! Thank you. I keep a list of books to read and will add these to it. It is ever growing, but I'll probably bump one or two up in the queue.

I used to love metal and industrial, but I can't take the violence any more. I listen to that from time to time, but I now go for more symphonic and epic stuff like Blind Guardian. Now I listen more to jazz and blues than anything else. Jazz in particular seems very compatible with Zen practice. And I guess I'm just old.

In movies and series, I go with science fiction like Star Trek. I also like super hero stuff like The Flash or The Arrow. There's violence in them, but there's always a good and heroic reason for it. I watch a lot of documentaries.

In videogames I love to be the hero and kill monsters or demons or robots. It's satisfying, but I would never do that kind of stuff in real life.

At the end I think it all comes down to intention and to go with whatever makes you feel at peace.

Hi Kyonin,

Sure thing -- I was happy to find that post, as I have been hitting some similar thoughts recently.

Not sure that it is a truly direct correlation to my practice, but I have been getting more into jazz lately myself -- interesting that you mention that! I've always enjoyed jazz (was even in jazz band in high school), but when I started questioning what violent music was "doing" to me emotionally/mentally (now what I think of as 'what seeds am I watering' with it, thanks to Shenshi's post) I started to delve deeper into other genres. Jazz really surprised me --- so many subgenres!

How do these movies and music make you feel? Will it lead to bad thoughts and actions or not?

Hi Shoki,

Honestly, that is largely what it all boils down to. More than bad action in my case, I'm interested in the bad thought (bad emotion) consideration. Some things I feel like I enjoy, but realize that in truth they don't exactly leave me in a good place, if that makes sense. My interests are naturally shifting some, and I think I'm going to nurture that shift. I'm coming to it being something to be mindful of, but not overthink (which I'm known to do!).

Thank you so much! All so very helpful.

Gassho,

Ryan
Sat Today

[Kyōsen]

I thought something I experienced recently might be a helpful contribution to this discussion.

I've been a fan of the horror genre for as long as I can remember. The other day I decided to finally watch the film Cargo on Netflix; I'm not really a fan of the zombie genre but I was willing to give it a go since it stars Martin Freeman and I'm a fan of his performances. Anyway, onto the point, as expected in any horror film and (especially) zombie film there is at least one main character who dies. This character's death hit me hard, harder than I was expecting, harder than films that include this trope have in the past. I don't think there was anything especially significant about its presentation or implication in the story that hasn't been done in other films I've seen but, for some reason, it was left disturbed.

I am certain it's me who has changed over the years and I welcome it. Not only because change is change and it's going to happen whether or not I want it to, but also I welcome not feeling numb to this kind of thing even if it's fiction.

Gassho
Kyōsen
Sat|LAH

[Snark]

I don’t know how old you are but definitely when I was younger I was a frustrated, angry, depressed person (not violent though). I fed that energy by listening to violent, angry and depressing music. It is like a spiral. One feeding the other.

The constant news cycle of negativity can also feed that energy.

Tairin
Sat today and lah

As Tairin says, the 24/7 news cycle feeds itself. without getting too political, the news is advertising, to subvert people's will, to prick their neuroses, to get them to 'opt in'. wherever possible severing ties with the bs is advisable and the space it leaves can be filled by anything you wish to fill it with.

Gassho,

dan.

[Jundo]

As Tairin says, the 24/7 news cycle feeds itself. without getting too political, the news is advertising, to subvert people's will, to prick their neuroses, to get them to 'opt in'. wherever possible severing ties with the bs is advisable and the space it leaves can be filled by anything you wish to fill it with.

Gassho,

dan.

I might say, speaking personally, that I do believe in staying informed however, and being a well informed citizen. What the dictators actually want is for the citizens to "tune out," and to not be paying attention. Don't overdo on the news, be discerning and "see thru" the BS, but neither look away.

Most of the Zen teachers I have known (not all) have kept up with current events and the state of the world. We know that this world is something like a dream, but it is the dreamers' duty to keep informed and participate in the dream so that the dream dictators don't take over, and the corrupt don't win.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jishin]

Hi,

Aggression, the money trail and sex explains close to 100 % of media content and life in general.

Understanding humans is important as we are humans and to turn away from understanding humans is an act of aggression in itself.

To effect change in this imperfect world you have to get your hands dirty; visit brothels and participate in objectionable behavior, hold a rifle to effect peace, be a reporter spinning the news and a politician telling lies; an arm chair Buddhist does little to effect change other than criticize the world as it is.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

[gaurdianaq]

I think in regards to right thought a lot of it comes down to intention, going with the music example... are you listening to the song because of the violent lyrics? Like do you relate to them, or are you listening because you enjoy the music itself? There are probably a bunch of songs that I don't agree with the lyrics, but the melody is catchy and it helps to pump me up (such as for a workout, where an aggressive energy can be useful).

That being said I know everyone processes things differently, I personally find it fairly easy to tune out the meaning of lyrics if I don't think they're good... Within reason, I suppose if it was something extreme and I felt the musicians were trying way too hard to make it sound extreme I might be turned off for it and then just not want to listen to it. (Hence why I always skip that one part in Disturbeds song Down with the Sickness)

Evan

[Bokugan]

Understanding humans is important as we are humans and to turn away from understanding humans is an act of aggression in itself.

True, turning away from exposure that will bring an understanding would be like burying our head in the sand to ignore suffering rather than work to alleviate it. Enacting change to make things better requires real experience that leads to understanding. Thank you for sharing that.

Gassho,

Ryan
Sat Today

[Bokugan]

I think in regards to right thought a lot of it comes down to intention, going with the music example... are you listening to the song because of the violent lyrics? Like do you relate to them, or are you listening because you enjoy the music itself? There are probably a bunch of songs that I don't agree with the lyrics, but the melody is catchy and it helps to pump me up (such as for a workout, where an aggressive energy can be useful).

That being said I know everyone processes things differently, I personally find it fairly easy to tune out the meaning of lyrics if I don't think they're good... Within reason, I suppose if it was something extreme and I felt the musicians were trying way too hard to make it sound extreme I might be turned off for it and then just not want to listen to it. (Hence why I always skip that one part in Disturbeds song Down with the Sickness)

Evan

For my media of concern, I was partaking out of habit and new sensitivities brought me to realize the state of mind it was leaving me in. After going through this helpful discussion, I think my Right Thought concern is with how it (let's say violent films and certain music specifically here) leaves me feeling afterwards. I'm losing my taste for intensely violent/depressing media, which I feel is happening because I am more in tune with how it affects me mentally (not a violent person, more a thought pattern/negative view sort of thing) and that could affect right thought.

Gassho,

Ryan
Sat Today

[gaurdianaq]

For my media of concern, I was partaking out of habit and new sensitivities brought me to realize the state of mind it was leaving me in. After going through this helpful discussion, I think my Right Thought concern is with how it (let's say violent films and certain music specifically here) leaves me feeling afterwards. I'm losing my taste for intensely violent/depressing media, which I feel is happening because I am more in tune with how it affects me mentally (not a violent person, more a thought pattern/negative view sort of thing) and that could affect right thought.

Gassho,

Ryan
Sat Today

Sounds like you've found your answer then.

Evan

[Bokugan]

Sounds like you've found your answer then.

Evan

I did, thank you so much for sharing as well Evan! This whole thread was very helpful to me. I appreciate people taking the time to share their personal experiences and opinions.

Gassho,

Ryan S
Sat Today

[Tairin]

I don’t think anyone posted a link to article in this thread

https://www.lionsroar.com/food-for-thought/

I think this teaching is apropos to the topic at hand.


Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Bokugan]

Tairin,

I finally took a moment to read this article and it was so spot on for what prompted my question.

“When you eat your breakfast, are you eating your breakfast, or are you eating your projects or the morning radio show?” Thich Nhat Hanh would ask.

Every morning I browse the news while eating breakfast, and often during lunch... so this too is something I need to take to heart. Like the author says, aim for informed not overwhelmed.

Gassho,

Ryan
Sat Today

[Tairin]

Tairin,

I finally took a moment to read this article and it was so spot on for what prompted my question.



Every morning I browse the news while eating breakfast, and often during lunch... so this too is something I need to take to heart. Like the author says, aim for informed not overwhelmed.

Gassho,

Ryan
Sat Today

Yes it is a very good perspective and one I try to take to heart. I am glad to hear you found it useful.


Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Bion]

I was able to find a wonderful thread started by Kyonin here: Violence in Entertainment

It was very helpful, but I have a sort of followup question that aligns with developing more sensitivity to violent media. This might be super obvious and is clearly subjective (ie what is considered violent media might vary from person to person). Even so, I would be interested in opinions if anyone has the time and feels inclined to share

My question(s): In thinking on the eightfold path, specifically Right Thought, would consuming violent media be advised against? Put another way, as a Buddhist, is violent media something that should be abstained from?

For me, I am specifically thinking on violent music and film. Like Kyonin mentions in the thread he started, after around 6-7 months of practice I too find that there are certain media preferences, especially music, that are shifting for me. Much of the violent music I once listened to on a regular basis just isn't appealing anymore. I'm also noticing that types of shows and films I once watched are a struggle at times when they have gratuitous violence.

But still, my interest hasn't completely dropped off on these things. I don't want to write a book here, but one strong example is music. I still listen to some stuff that elicits an aggressive emotion/energy. Such material almost always contains violent lyrics and imagery (black metal and certain industrial artists for example). I enjoy it during a workout, while driving, or making art... but I feel like the aggressive/negative feelings I get from listening to it works against the ideal of Right Thought.

Maybe as time goes my interest in such things will continue to wane. I guess the main reason I am curious is that I wonder if keeping such media in my life (which is all part of the practice -- not just zen on the zafu, but in all things; all of life) is counterproductive to the practice.

Thank you for reading!

Gassho,

Ryan S
Sat Today

I find this to be a particularly interesting question/topic. It makes me think of the tendency some christian groups have of deeming certain types of entertainment as unsuitable for the followers. I experienced that firsthand as a Jehovah’s Witness. Violent, sexual, occult content in books, entertainment, music were strongly discouraged and even a reason for punishment. The logic behind that is that it taints one’s mind and exposes them to evil thoughts.

Obviously, the subconscious is a powerful thing and of course what we consume, whether physical or intellectual food has an effect on us.

However, speaking of certain content being advised against by someone else whose criteria might be different than yours opens the door for a very cult-like behavior. While we definitely have guidelines for behavior coming from the Buddha, masters, etc it all meant to help us keep the precepts and walk the Buddha way. But ULTIMATELY, the Middle Way is very different for each person and what is too much for one might be just enough for another and what might be a challenge or a stumbling block for one person might be nothing for another.

My point here is that the issue should not be so much whether something is advised against or not, but rather if we make wise choices on our own. I think it is much more important for an individual to act “right” based on their own compassion, empathy, wisdom, impulses and choices than for them to do so out of a sense of obligation to something external.

In my case for example I find little to no entertainment in certain types of violent content.. I stay away from horror movies after a certain time of the day as I know they make me uneasy at night and I have no need to torture myself. I never use obscene language EVER, not in public, not with friends, just cause I think it sets a bad example and tarnishes the image of what a zen practitioner should be for others and also because I am perfectly capable of expressing any emotion, feeling or idea using a language that doesn’t make anyone uncomfortable and is not offensive. Rather than doing it because I was told to, I’ve ended up here as a result of the practice and I do think that is ultimately the goal.

SatToday lah

[Bokugan]

Jake,

You hit on something important here. Thinking back on the watering the right seeds of our mind's garden metaphor Shinshi shared, I feel this question of media impacting right thought is absolutely a personal decision and not something anyone else can dictate for us (it is our garden, after all -- ultimately all one garden, but a garden that we are tending).

So, it is not the point to avoid all media that could be considered violent -- just learning that one needs to be in tune with what the consumption of certain media (as discussed in the article Tairin shared) residually leaves behind and make decisions based on whether we are watering the right seeds/affecting right thought in negative or positive ways. On top of that, we also can't be too sheltered and need to experience life, which is part of the point I believe Jishin was bringing up.

Thank you for sharing! I know I went over a bit here, but this has been an excellent discussion for me.

Gassho

Ryan
Sat Today

[Geika]

Good points, Jake, I feel much the same.

Gassho
Sat today, lah

[Bion]

Good points, Jake, I feel much the same.

Gassho
Sat today, lah

ST lah

[sreed]

Let me strt by saying that I read this thread and Kyonin's original post a few days ago. This topic has been with me during Samu.

I think about: how much I love the Die Hard movies, and action flicks in general, especially martial arts.
It's all a fantasy and an art form.
I am a very sensitive person who can't watch overly violent or disturbing things.

Today I was watching a tv special on how Hitler profited off concentration camp prisoners and working them to death. I asked my husband to change the channel because it was too disturbing and mad me feel nauseous. He changed the channel. Then I wondered if I should have continued watching it because it was educational and it happened, even though I didn't like it, there was something to learn.


I have decided that I haven't decided how I feel about this topic yet. I'm still processing it but very happy to have this brought to my attention.


-Sara
ST

[Emmet]

Perhaps this is an American cultural phenomenon, but...try this thought experiment.

Spend several hours each weekday evening watching police dramas, not just with their inherent violence, but their archetypes; the agents of the State as heroes; pretty much everyone else as suspects and perpetrators, including people who look a lot like our fellow citizens and neighbors.
Then watch the evening news, which will spend an inordinate amount of time breathlessly recounting the lurid details of some individual's sociopathic behavior, without ever providing the context that they're referring to only one person out of millions (for example, metro Atlanta; one person out of five million eight thousand).
Now; go to the grocery store on Saturday, and tell me that you don't look upon your fellow human beings a little bit less charitably than you did the previous Monday morning.
There's a reason they call it "programming". Thich Nhat Hanh was right when he included "toxins" from "certain websites, electronic games, TV programs, films, magazines, books, and conversations" in their version of the 5th Precept. There are many more delusive, destructive, and addictive intoxicants out there than just alcohol & drugs.

[Margherita]

I have always loved creepy, sometimes violent readings, like King or Lovecraft, I love Tarantino's and similar movies, and I still shout some metal music if I'm angry.
I am going to study creative writing in October and I wonder, does writing horror/bloody stories make me a violent person, and a bad Buddhist?
Personally I I don't think that putting my frustrations and fears into what I watch, read, listen or write makes me violent, but even so, I try to hit the middle way.

Gassho,
Mags
ST

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[Risho]

I have always loved creepy, sometimes violent readings, like King or Lovecraft, I love Tarantino's and similar movies, and I still shout some metal music if I'm angry.
I am going to study creative writing in October and I wonder, does writing horror/bloody stories make me a violent person, and a bad Buddhist?
Personally I I don't think that putting my frustrations and fears into what I watch, read, listen or write makes me violent, but even so, I try to hit the middle way.

Gassho,
Mags
ST

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You may have read this - but I was just re-reading Brad Warner's "Sit Down and Shut Up", and he has a chapter on anger where he discusses how punk music (what he is a musician in) is seen as angry, but to actually effectively write and perform it you cannot be angry at all.

I listen to metal and rap and am exposed to countless forms of violence being portrayed in media (like we all are), but I think we have to make sure we don't start believing messages we listen to and, to Emmet's point, take an inventory that we aren't watering the wrong seeds.

I think right now social media and news media may be the things that arouse anger in me the most; I think they are actually designed to evoke an emotive response for profit; sidenote: I'm giving up twitter for ango, and I don't watch news - if I do it's with a heavy eye on who's agenda is being promoted.

Gassho

Rish
-stlah

[Bion]

I have always loved creepy, sometimes violent readings, like King or Lovecraft, I love Tarantino's and similar movies, and I still shout some metal music if I'm angry.
I am going to study creative writing in October and I wonder, does writing horror/bloody stories make me a violent person, and a bad Buddhist?
Personally I I don't think that putting my frustrations and fears into what I watch, read, listen or write makes me violent, but even so, I try to hit the middle way.

Gassho,
Mags
ST

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I think many times when we ask certain questions we already know what the answer is for ourselves at least, and especially in situations where it’s a matter of conscience.

What I mean is that if we do something - always something that doesn’t actually harm anyone - and what we take from it is guilt, we might want to re-analyze why we feel that way, because it’s a source of suffering for us.

I don’t believe being a “good buddhist” means just following someone else’s clear rules and regulations, but rather making decisions on our own that are based on the dharma, the precepts and our personal situation, qualities, weaknesses and flaws.

SatToday lah

[Margherita]

My question about being a good Buddhist was rhetorical, but surely there are certain established rules regarding right thought?

I have never read anything by Warner but I agree with him, if you get too much engulfed in a fantasy you're going to get hurt in real life (been there, done that).

I do get too much involved in everyday violence thanks to the news, so I decided to read less of it and let my mind rest,

Gassho,
Mags
ST