TNH and the Heart Sutra

[Nameless]

Just picked up the Heart of Understanding by TNH. It's his commentary on the Heart Sutra and I've gotta say... it's brilliant and touching. Cry at least once each time I read it (three times now since it's only 50 pages). In one chapter, he encourages us to ask if something is empty, then what is it empty of? Something isn't just empty, it's empty of something, and that something is a separate, permanent self. Nothing and no one exists alone. Because I am, you are, because you are, everything is. "Empty of a separate self means full of everything." Knowing this intellectually isn't enough. We have to fully experience impermanence and interbeing firsthand via meditation and mindfulness:

"If you are a poet, you will see clearly that there is a cloud floating in this sheet of paper. Without a cloud, there could be no rain, without rain, the trees cannot grow; and without trees, we cannot make paper. The cloud is essential for the paper to exist. If the cloud is not here, the sheet of paper cannot be here either. So we can say that the cloud and the paper inter-are (interbeing)...

If we look into this sheet of paper even more deeply, we can see the sunshine in it. If the sunshine is not there, the forest cannot grow. In fact, nothing can grow. Even we cannot grow without sunshine. And so, we know that the sunshine is also in this sheet of paper. The paper and the sunshine inter-are. And if we continue to look, we can see the logger who cut the tree and brought it to the mill to be transformed into paper. And we see the wheat. We know that the logger cannot exist without his daily bread, and therefore the wheat that became his bread is also in this sheet of paper. And the logger's father and mother are in it too. When we look in this way, we see that without all of these things, the sheet of paper cannot exist.

Looking more deeply, we can see that we are in it too. This is not difficult to see, because when we look at a sheet of paper, the sheet of paper is part of our perception. Your mind is in here and mine is also. So we can say that everything is in here in this sheet of paper. You cannot point out one thing that is not here - time, space, the earth, the rain, the minerals in the soil, the sunshine, the cloud, the river, the heat. Everything coexists with this sheet of paper...

You cannot just be by yourself alone. You have to inter-be with every other thing. This sheet of paper is, because everything is.. The fact is that this sheet of paper is made up of 'non-paper elements.' And if we return these non-paper elements to their sources, then there can be no paper at all. As thin as this sheet of paper is, it contains everything in the universe."

Gassho, John

[Heishu]

Hello John,

Thank you for this, I liked what you said. I read the Heart of Understanding a while back and I agree with you on this teaching by TNH. This oneness with the universe, so vast and yet so small.

Gassho,
Heishu

[pinoybuddhist]

Had a conversaton with my wife over breakfast yesterday where we started from my first aikido teacher's vegetarianism (a worthy path, but not for either of us) and ended up as a sharing of our views on our interbeing with food (though we didn't quite word it that way). My wife's a typical japanese of her generation so she's not really into all this Zen and Buddhism stuff, but showing gratitude for the meal through doing gassho and saying "Itadakimasu" - roughly means "I will eat" but carries a connotation of respect - is a big deal for her because we have to eat to live, and (I pointed out, to which she agreed) we can only eat what used to be alive. I mean, the soil itself on which the plants take root is made of the decayed bodies of dead living things... the food comes from the universe, is on our plates because of the universe. And that goes for everything - food, paper, you, me...

Gassho,
Raf

[Jishin]

I loved the book too John.

Gassho, Jishin

[Jinyo]

Hello John - it is a lovely book and a good example of TNH using skillfull means to communicate a fundamental
teaching of buddhism.

But I also value Red Pine's translation and commentary as it puts flesh on some bare bones of the wider context - which I found helpful.

Gassho

Willow

[Jundo]

I love TNH's presentation and quote the "paper and sun" story many times.

If there is one criticism, some folks have found TNH's presentation to sometimes be too materialistic, in the sense of being limited in the things he lists to observable physical objects and living beings, matter and energy of the world. Also, there is not a sense of the wondrous interflowing wholeness of emptiness. Perhaps we need to add something like, "and the paper is all things ... and not things ... beyond and right through that, known and unknown, and each is all and each is the other through and through".

Something (and not thing) like that.

Gassho, J

[Jishin]

Jundo,

I think below is the Treeleaf Heart Sutra. At first it says emptiness is precisely form but then it says it's not. How come?

Gassho, Jishin

Treeleaf
HEART SUTRA
Avolokitesvara Bodhisattva, Awakened One of Compassion
In Prajna Paramita, the Deep Practice of Perfect Wisdom*
Perceived the emptiness of all five conditions,
And was free of suffering.
O Shariputra, form is no other than emptiness,
Emptiness no other than form;
Form is precisely emptiness, emptiness precisely form.
Sensations, perceptions, formations and consciousness are also like this.
O Shariputra, all things are expressions of emptiness,
Not born, not destroyed, not stained, not pure;
Neither waxing nor waning.
Thus emptiness is not form; not sensation nor perception,
not formation nor consciousness.
No eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind;
No sight, sound, smell, taste, touch, nor object of mind;
No realm of sight, no realm of consciousness;
No ignorance, no end to ignorance;
No old age and death,
No cessation of old age and death;
No suffering, nor cause or end to suffering;
No path, no wisdom and no gain.
No gain – thus Boddhisattvas live this Prajna Paramita*
With no hindrance of mind –
No hindrance therefore no fear.
Far beyond all delusion, Nirvana is already here.
All past, present and future Buddhas
Live this Prajna Paramita*
And realize supreme and complete enlightenment.
Therefore know that Prajna Paramita
Is the sacred mantra, the luminous mantra,
the supreme mantra, the incomparable mantra
by which all suffering is clear.
This is no other than Truth.
Therefore set forth the Prajna Paramita mantra.
Set forth this mantra and proclaim:*
(1x)
Gate! Gate! (Already Gone, Gone)
Paragate! (Already Gone Beyond)
Parasamgate! (Already Fully Beyond)
Bodhi! Svaha! * (Awakening, Rejoice)

[pinoybuddhist]

It is and it isn't.

[Jishin]

It is and it isn't.

Thanks.

Gassho, Jishin

[Risho]

Thank you Jishin. Awesome Question!!! OK.. I'm going to attempt to answer this knowing full well that I will fail, but I will attempt to answer this because it's such an awesome question and it must be asked again and again knowing full well that the answer changes and the only answer is to drop all this and practice. This could be one of the most important questions in our practice, and I mean honestly I have to sit more, but I think it's something really important that we need to investigate. There are so many things we do in this wonderful practice, and every one of them should be questioned.

In the precepts we are studying the 3 pure precepts. The Heart Sutra is a way of looking at the precepts. To paraphrase: Cease all evil. Practice Good. Do good for others (save others).

There are others to save, but there are no others, simultaneously. By helping ourselves, finding balance and stability, we are saving others. But we can't just sit on our butts thinking that's saving others. There's a fine balance of falling to one side or the other. The middle path is deceptively simple, but it's incredibly difficult.. That's why we practice.

In Shikantaza, when you are fully "here", then you slip off into a dream or thought. That's the falling to one side or the other. But our practice is to just keep falling and just keep getting up. Just keep getting up. Never quit. After all, this isn't about you at all, but only you can do it.

We are all the same, but we are all different, each in our own place and time. To steal from John Daido Loori, you and I are the same, but you are not me, and I am not you.

We are connected in ways that we cannot intellectually fathom, yet intellect is a gateway to practice.

I love TNH's commentary because he focuses on that interconnectedness; I never thought about it like Jundo said that it could be too materialistic. Interesting.. I just never thought of that.

Emptiness as I understand it, is that things are all empty of an independent self. We can only define things by virtue of their relationship to other things (i.e. relatively)... they are this high, as opposed to that high. They are brown, or they are white... All these descriptions are in fact expressing the relationship to everything else. Without you, there couldn't be anything else.

So in a way you are the center of the universe. But the rub is that so am I, and so is Willow and so is Kyonin, etc.

And these are just words.. and I have a bad habit of making things too intellectual, but ultimately with true practice this is a very very compassionate and loving practice. This form is emptiness and emptiness is form is the essence because it means that we are connected, and that our normal way of looking at things is ass-backward. That by following our normal motivations of greed, anger and ignorance we are destroying ourselves. When you hurt someone, it takes a massive psychological toll. I mean after practicing for a couple of years now, for example, after getting really furious I feel it within my body. It drains me. Greed or jealousy at "others" drains me.. because "others" are me.

But I can't just live in your house or drive your car because "Emptiness is not Form" at the same time. You are you and I am me. It's really just beautiful.

And this is practice. Why do you sit zen? Why do I sit zen? Why do I do this seemingly crazy practice? Why do I say the bodhisattva vows? Why participate in Ango? Why have Sangha? Why sew the Rakusu? It's all here. This is a sane way to live. These are the questions that are just integral to this practice.

Zen is useless, but it's also the most important thing we can do, discovering who we are... not limiting ourselves to these bullshit definitions of our roles in life. Sure our roles are real to some extent.. we are Dads, Moms, husbands, wives, students, etc., but we are also so much more than a definition could ever hope to describe.

When I started this practice I wasn't sure why. I was feeling stressed. I wanted to be more compassionate whatever that meant. Those definitions limit Zen. Practice is beyond form and emptiness. It is limitless.

The world is on fire. The media would have us believe we are on the brink of World War III. Greed, anger and ignorance. At the same time, when someone cuts us off in traffic, we want to kill them or beat them or hurt them. There is World War 3. So those crazy bastards that want to nuke us are us. At the same time, we are ourselves and we need to take responsibility for our own actions.. to atone and to have the courage to face those harmful actions, not feel ashamed, not feed them. Learn from them, let them dissipate. That is practice man.

Gassho,

Risho

[Jundo]

It is and it isn't.

And it is neither is nor isn't. And more but just precisely all that.

Now ... GO SIT!

We live in a world of apparently separate things and beings ...

... except that, for another non-perspective, there are no separate things or beings ...

... and yet, something more than that, yet all that too.

So ...GO SIT!

Gassho, J

[Daiyo]

And this is practice. Why do you sit zen? Why do I sit zen? Why do I do this seemingly crazy practice? Why do I say the bodhisattva vows? Why participate in Ango? Why have Sangha? Why sew the Rakusu? It's all here. This is a sane way to live. These are the questions that are just integral to this practice.

Zen is useless, but it's also the most important thing we can do, discovering who we are... not limiting ourselves to these bullshit definitions of our roles in life. Sure our roles are real to some extent.. we are Dads, Moms, husbands, wives, students, etc., but we are also so much more than a definition could ever hope to describe.

When I started this practice I wasn't sure why. I was feeling stressed. I wanted to be more compassionate whatever that meant. Those definitions limit Zen. Practice is beyond form and emptiness. It is limitless.

The world is on fire. The media would have us believe we are on the brink of World War III. Greed, anger and ignorance. At the same time, when someone cuts us off in traffic, we want to kill them or beat them or hurt them. There is World War 3. So those crazy bastards that want to nuke us are us. At the same time, we are ourselves and we need to take responsibility for our own actions.. to atone and to have the courage to face those harmful actions, not feel ashamed, not feed them. Learn from them, let them dissipate. That is practice man.

Gassho,

Risho

Thanks Risho, I felt very identified with your words.
Awesome words, BTW.

I am walking the part of the road where I am not sure why I do practice. I started some time ago because I was feeling stressed, wanted to be more compassionate.
I still don't know how to define in words why I practice, but I feel doing this is doing good. To me and others (no two, as you guys like to emphasize)
In a short time, continued practice made me less egotistic, angry, jealous, greedy.

Thanks everyone for your practice.

Gassho,
Walter.

[Risho]

And it is neither is nor isn't. And more but just precisely all that.

Now ... GO SIT!

We live in a world of apparently separate things and beings ...

... except that, for another non-perspective, there are no separate things or beings ...

... and yet, something more than that, yet all that too.

So ...GO SIT!

Gassho, J

[Kyonin]

And it is neither is nor isn't. And more but just precisely all that.

Now ... GO SIT!

We live in a world of apparently separate things and beings ...

... except that, for another non-perspective, there are no separate things or beings ...

... and yet, something more than that, yet all that too.

So ...GO SIT!

Gassho, J

Yes, reading and studying the Heart Sutra will only take you so far. Sitting zazen is how it all makes sense. And the fun part is that every time something new pops up, just to wash away in the waves of the mind.

Ok, now I'll go sit.

Gassho,

Kyonin

[pinoybuddhist]

And it is neither is nor isn't. And more but just precisely all that.

Now ... GO SIT!

We live in a world of apparently separate things and beings ...

... except that, for another non-perspective, there are no separate things or beings ...

... and yet, something more than that, yet all that too.

So ...GO SIT!

Gassho, J

Yes, reading and studying the Heart Sutra will only take you so far. Sitting zazen is how it all makes sense. And the fun part is that every time something new pops up, just to wash away in the waves of the mind.

Ok, now I'll go sit.

Gassho,

Kyonin

Gassho,
Raf

[Nameless]

I love TNH's presentation and quote the "paper and sun" story many times.

If there is one criticism, some folks have found TNH's presentation to sometimes be too materialistic, in the sense of being limited in the things he lists to observable physical objects and living beings, matter and energy of the world. Also, there is not a sense of the wondrous interflowing wholeness of emptiness. Perhaps we need to add something like, "and the paper is all things ... and not things ... beyond and right through that, known and unknown, and each is all and each is the other through and through".

Something (and not thing) like that.

Gassho, J

Thank you Jundo. He does indeed seem to limit it to the material. Now, off to sit again before bed.

Gassho, John

[Anshu Bryson]

I love TNH's presentation and quote the "paper and sun" story many times.

If there is one criticism, some folks have found TNH's presentation to sometimes be too materialistic, in the sense of being limited in the things he lists to observable physical objects and living beings, matter and energy of the world. Also, there is not a sense of the wondrous interflowing wholeness of emptiness. Perhaps we need to add something like, "and the paper is all things ... and not things ... beyond and right through that, known and unknown, and each is all and each is the other through and through".

Something (and not thing) like that.

Gassho, J

I read one review of TNH's work as being 'accessible'; I think that is the reason for his 'materialistic' presentation. His ever-growing audience is not restricted to scholars or practitioners of Buddhism; he likely feels the need to speak from a framework easiest grasped by the majority of readers. If that leads to further delving on the part of those readers, that's a good thing, no...?

Gassho,

Bryson

[Jundo]

I read one review of TNH's work as being 'accessible'; I think that is the reason for his 'materialistic' presentation. His ever-growing audience is not restricted to scholars or practitioners of Buddhism; he likely feels the need to speak from a framework easiest grasped by the majority of readers. If that leads to further delving on the part of those readers, that's a good thing, no...?

Gassho,

Bryson

Hi Bryson,

Accessible is wonderful. But it could be that a way of describing Emptiness and Dependent Origination can also be a little misleading.

Gassho, J

[Hans]

Hello,

as much as I loved Thich Nhat Hanh's book on Dying and some other of his works, and as much I admire him for his great courage, wisdom and perseverance when faced with terrible tragediy, I remember reading a text of his on dependent origination many years ago that left me with the impression that he completely misrepresented the radical underbelly of the emptiness teachings. I do believe his dharma activities do strengthen and spread wisdom, compassion etc., but the whole "interbeing" notion reifies existence in a way that to me has little to do with the uniqueness of the Prajna Paramita. To each his own. And no, I don not claim to be half as courageous and wise as him in general.

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Jinyo]

Hi Bryson,

Accessible is wonderful. But it could be that a way of describing Emptiness and Dependent Origination can also be a little misleading.

Gassho, J

Hi Jundo - would appreciate if you could you explain a little more. Not sure I understand how TNH is misleading?

The thing is - his words do look deceptively simple - but he keeps repeating 'to look deeply'. This feels more than a simple material instruction - because to look deeply and then sense the whole universe in a sheet a paper maybe requires a deeply meditative stance that can bring one to a realisation of something wonderous beyond the material aspect of interconnectivity?

Hi Hans - could you say a little more too?
Just to say I read TNH's book on death and found it didn't help me - I wanted it to but it didn't - but I have always assumed this is a 'weakness' in myself not the teaching.

Gassho

Willow

[Hans]

Hello Willow,

Dharma teachings come in a lot of flavours....and sometimes the different ways in which different aspects are highlighted make it seem as if we are talking about different religions....and who knows....maybe we are.

Btw. I do not claim to be the world's foremost authority on emptiness as a lived experience, otherwise I'd be a great Bodhisattva....and let me add that emptiness as an intellectual concept doesn't interest me.

Dependent origination is not just about showing how THINGS work or how they are inter-related. It points toward the groundlessness and ultimate non-existence of THINGS as real things. Including the illusory sense of I.

This is radical, literally groundbreaking stuff.

Most people whom I hear or read (and I am just a guy with limited life experience) use the words and concepts "inter-being" and "we are all inter-related" after having been exposed to the TNH way of putting things seem to take Pratitiya-Samutpada
to point them to a positive affirmation of their existence as part of a wonderful chain of related stuff. We are all responsible for the planets future etc. often follows.

To me personally, nothing could be further from the intent of the original Pratitiya-Samutpada based Dharma teachings. The Suttas and Sutras are all out there for people to read btw., so everyone can find their own way towards their own experiential understanding of these matters. It is true IMHO that the Tathagatagharba/Buddha nature teachings had to arise in order to counter the Prajna Paramitas tendency of being almost too radical in the ears of most practitioners...but nevertheless Prajna Paramita and dependent origination teachings repeatedly point towards the fact that our normal reification of our selves is ....excuse the French... bullshit

I am NOT a nihilist, to me that is another false dharmic view, but you simply will not find me in the "let's make it sweet, so that more people will be able to get in touch with it" camp. Maybe TNH's approach is a far better Upaya position than my own...it's just not the way I roll...and I am a nobody.



Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Jundo]

Hi Jundo - would appreciate if you could you explain a little more. Not sure I understand how TNH is misleading?

The thing is - his words do look deceptively simple - but he keeps repeating 'to look deeply'. This feels more than a simple material instruction - because to look deeply and then sense the whole universe in a sheet a paper maybe requires a deeply meditative stance that can bring one to a realisation of something wonderous beyond the material aspect of interconnectivity?

Hi Willow,

I like what Hans tries to say, and just add this ...

If I find someone describing a Beethoven Symphony as violin, viola, cello and bass, woodwinds and brass, conductor and composer, stage and lighting, audience and notes on the page ... and each violin its strings, wood, tuning screws, varnish and player ... I would say some of the wonder and "big picture" is missing.

There is something more to Emptyness than things dependent on other things to make a whole. There is a great Symphony, and Dance of Emptiness, where a certain wonder happens more than the sum of parts, and transcendent of any one, yet each and all, one flowing into the other.

As Hans described, there is something here more wondrous than merely parts flowing together, or their coming together in some whole or interdependency, but a complete and harmonious vanishing of all separation and individuals ... only to reemerge with the symphony fully contained in each and all (as if all the other instruments are ever fully and originally held in each one in a very real and radical sense beyond mere relationship and identity. This is a bit like saying the mother fully holds the unborn child within, and continues to do so after seeming birth and separation ... in such way all facets of the world fully hold within all other facets in the most intimate sense).

This is something very hard to express, so old Zen guys turn to the cushion, poetry and such. However, TNH's very mechanical description ... a bit like describing the parts of the orchestra ... strikes me sometimes as brilliant, but a little cold.

The Steve Stucky death poem I posted earlier today does better ...

“This human body truly is the entire cosmos
Each breath of mine, is equally one of yours, my darling
This tender abiding in “my” life
Is the fierce glowing fire of inner earth
Linking with all pre-phenomena
Flashing to the distant horizon
From “right here now” to “just this”
Now the horizon itself
Drops away—
Bodhi!
Svaha.”

Dogen from Genjo Koan

Enlightenment is like the moon reflected on the water. The moon does not get wet, nor is the water broken. Although its light is wide and great, the moon is reflected even in a puddle an inch wide. The whole moon and the entire sky are reflected in dewdrops on the grass, or even in one drop of water. Enlightenment does not divide you, just as the moon does not break the water. You cannot hinder enlightenment, just as a drop of water does not hinder the moon in the sky. The depth of the drop is the height of the moon. Each reflection, however long or short its duration, manifests the vastness of the dewdrop, and realizes the limitlessness of the moonlight in the sky.

Gassho, J

[Risho]

Man I'm confused. lol

Hans: sorry to put you on the spot, but I find what you said interesting. What do you mean by "reification of our selves"? I think I know what means ... I mean we try to establish that we exist separate and independent? But of course we don't exist independently. Isn't that pretty obvious? Without all the components that come together to make a human being there would be no human beings. At the same time I sure as hell do exist, and I'm not a hammer. I'm not a car. I'm a human being. There are causes and conditions that make me a human vs. something else. But I'm really confused on that point. I think I'm simplifying this somewhat, and it's difficult to discuss.

The reason I think I'm simplifying this is that it always seems like this is such a big revelation that everything is related or empty of an independent self-existence. But I think that's pretty obvious. Of course everything is defined in relative terms. I mean what is blue? You know blue because you know what blue is not. The color can also be defined by a measurable frequency but measurement is completely relative and based on context (i.e. everything around it). But I also think I'm missing a lot of what emptiness is trying to express.

I don't even know how to express what I'm not understanding. lol

Gassho,

Risho

[Hans]

Dear Risho,

"I don't even know how to express what I'm not understanding."

That is a wonderful place to be in

There is little point in me trying to explain something that cannot be explained, that can only be pointed at, but the bottom line is that it is not about intellectual views. All these words circle around the recognition of something very apparent yet easily overlooked. Words can do so little to help us, but they can do so much to tip us into the wrong direction when we turn them into calcified-crystallised things we mistake for something that really exists. It is not about words, it is how they point and what that leads us to, or what it leads us away from.

Balancing on a razor's edge,
some peoples' safety ropes seem to me
like feathers made of lead.
The feather feels so soft,
as it drops onto my balancing arm,
but I cannot help but feel too that...
it tips me towards the abyss.

May I and all sentient beings steer the raft of Dharma
towards arriving at groundlessness,
where nothing is lacking.

In this palace of awe,
things never had a true abode in the first place.


Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Kaishin]

Thanks, Hans

To what does it lead us? And away from what?
Thanks,
Kaishin

[Hans]

Hello Kaishin,

right where you are,
the space behind your question mark,
needs looking into.

Hint: Concepts won't cut it.

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Risho]

Thank you Hans! I think I was starting to try to intellectualize myself out of this.

Again, I'm really thankful for this thread; sometimes I get complacent, but questions like these are just awesome.

Gassho,

Risho

[Meishin]

Thank you all very much for this teaching. Now I'll sew.

Gassho
John

[Jishin]

Words can do so little to help us, but they can do so much to tip us into the wrong direction

Good advice in my case.

Gassho, Jishin

[Nameless]

The whole is different than the sum of its parts. Ah Gestalt, what a lovely psychological perspective you are.

Gassho, John

[Jinyo]

Thank you Jundo and Hans.

I think I understand - but can't be sure - to be honest I'm lost for words.

Perhaps that's the best place to be

Gassho

Willow

[jphiled]

Hello,

There is something more to Emptyness than things dependent on other things to make a whole. There is a great Symphony, and Dance of Emptiness, where a certain wonder happens more than the sum of parts, and transcendent of any one, yet each and all, one flowing into the other.

When I read this, this reminded me a bit of something Nagarjuna said with respect to Emptiness: because everything is empty, everything is possible. This can be a double-edged sword. A man with a bad temper and alcohol problems can, with the right environment and conditions, become a saint, but on the flip side a perfectly normal person can be a terrible dictator.

Also, the "greater than the sum of its parts" comment reminds me of the esoteric Shingon school in Japan who venerates Mahavairocana Buddha. Mahavairocana Buddha is supposed to personify this very thing from what little I understand, but at the same time, the real Mahavairocana is something beyond words. The statue is just a visual aid. Or so I understand it.

This is something very hard to express, so old Zen guys turn to the cushion, poetry and such. However, TNH's very mechanical description ... a bit like describing the parts of the orchestra ... strikes me sometimes as brilliant, but a little cold.

That explains why old Zen guys write a lot of poetry. I often wondered about that.

I don't read TNH's books very much, but I often do like reading his sutra commentaries. I have this book, plus his commentaries on the Diamond Sutra, Lotus Sutra (very helpful as it is not an easy read), and the Amitabha Sutra. In all such books, he seems to try to express things as down to earth as possible, presumably because his audience is very, very new to Buddhism and might be intimidated by anything less. I bet if you were to ask him in person though, he'd probably agree with your description of Emptiness. I imagine anyone in Buddhism who has experienced that insight would probably draw the same description.

Anyhow, great sutra commentaries, imho. They helped me out a lot back in the day and I still read from time to time.