No Rank

[RichardH]

Hi. I am curious how other sangha members see the idea of "a person of no rank". It is a very beautiful teaching that has been on my mind lately. Tutoring people in painting at a local school it is surprising how many students equate those words ( we talk about the idea) with low rank. So many people feel that they could never bloom creatively, that there are special people who are entitled to play and explore and realize something "authentic" , but that such things are "over there" and not "here". It isn't just a matter of temperment, it is a matter of conditioning. In creative terms she/he may not realize that her/his eye is already the best eye . We always hear about big egos and inflated self images, but I think it is much more common for people to diminish themselves and call it a virtue. In the same way, in " spiritual" matters it is so common to hear that there are special people out there who know about these things, or that no one does, or that maybe one day science will figure out the cosmos. Yet it is every person's birthright to realize the beautiful universal truths inherent in our own bones and in every gesture we make. We may need guidance and encouragement but "it" is not far away, and never belongs to someone else, or to an "official" institution.

Sorry to go on here but this has really jumped out lately. The best I can see is that a person of no rank can fetch water or take charge when needed, is not small or large, can feel comfortable in the company of rich or poor , socially powerful or not powerful. A person of no rank can assume the role of any rank, while being bound to none. And in the context of learning art, a person of no rank is willing to try and "fail" , and allows things to bloom according to their own light. Everyone booms differently but when that boom is sovereign it always shines.

Just had to get it out..


Gassho
Daizan

Sat today

Please take this post as a personal expression.

[Jishin]

Hi Daizan,

A person of no rank has achieved the highest rank of them all.

Gassho, Jishin, ST

[Shinzan]

Daizan, your words resonate for me. Allowing oneself to be wholly oneself in every situation, whether that is family life or facing a blank canvas, is about being present. Present to what's alive in oneself. And present to what's alive in the other person or outer environment. Setting aside preconceptions, old reactivity, misperceptions, judgments. Just here-now-here-now. Rank is irrelevant. Just being fully the tender petal flowering in whatever rocky crevice of this marvelous universe that shelters us. Letting that basic goodness and creativity flow thru one in our most sincere way.

Just my 2 cents, as well.
With a bow. _/st\_ Shinzan

[Mp]

Thank you Daizan,

I have heard a saying before ... "I am just a bug! In the grand scheme of things (universal) I am insignificant, yet a vital part of this world as a whole."

We are who we are and each one of use valuable - regardless of rank. =)

Gassho
Shingen

#sattoday

[Byrne]

Daizan,

I have also found that when it comes to being creative most people totally undermine themselves. We do not get to pick our talents, but all creative expressions come from ordinary people with all manners of advantages and disadvantages. The more open we are to our ordinary abilities, whatever they may be, the greater our capacity to make extraordinary statements.

Gassho

Sat Today

[Rich]

Daizan, your words resonate for me. Allowing oneself to be wholly oneself in every situation, whether that is family life or facing a blank canvas, is about being present. Present to what's alive in oneself. And present to what's alive in the other person or outer environment. Setting aside preconceptions, old reactivity, misperceptions, judgments. Just here-now-here-now. Rank is irrelevant. Just being fully the tender petal flowering in whatever rocky crevice of this marvelous universe that shelters us. Letting that basic goodness and creativity flow thru one in our most sincere way.

Just my 2 cents, as well.
With a bow. _/st\_ Shinzan

What Shinzan said. Creativity flows out of your presence. It's like the whole expressing itself through you.
And this is available to everyone so no rank. The Chinese and Japanese expanded Zen into many creative arts and sports.

SAT today

[Risho]

Thank you Daizan for this. I haven't thought about this consciously for a long time. Thank you Jishin, Shinzan, Shingen, Byrne and Rich. I don't say it enough but your posts always inform my practice.

I think this is such freeing view: from one point it's a good ego check; when I'm puffed up and think I'm this or that or I get worried I can't do something but feel I should given my "rank" or status, dropping that and remembering those are all imaginings is very freeing. At the same time, like you stated Daizan, dropping thoughts of being a low rank, not good enough, is also very liberating.

But I have a lot of bad habits personally; I see those thoughts of going from puffed up to not good enough over and over. So I have to always come back and remember there is no rank. Thank you again for bringing this up; it's very helpful.

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

[Kyonin]

Hi Daizan,

Once upon a time I wanted to be a comic book artist. I used to draw pretty nice and the dream was there.

Until I had an art teacher that hated everything I did. He criticized my perspective, anatomy, style... even how I handled a pencil or brush. I was young, so I ended hating art class and kept drawing mostly for myself.

I thought I didn't have the rank to be at Marvel or DC and forgot that dream and focused more on the written word.

I had no rank but for a lot of reasons I gave myself the rank of Capt. Incapable.

Now looking back, all I can say is that having no rank, no place to go and no dream to hold on to would've given me a better experience.

But on the other hand I wouldn't be here

So all is good and part of the same.

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

[Juki]

I had no rank but for a lot of reasons I gave myself the rank of Capt. Incapable.

It's okay if you still want to think of yourself as Captain Incapable, Kyonin. Try to be incapable of judgment, incapable of criticism, incapable of greed, hatred and delusion. Because you are capable of the opposites of all of those things.

Gassho,
Juki

Sat today

[Yugen]

Thank you to all in this thread. I'm grateful for your company and counsel tonight.

Deep bows
Yugen


sat2day

[Jundo]

Lovely post, Daizan.

I will note that the "person of no rank" was a saying by Zen Masters of old in the societies of traditional China and Japan in which everyone had a "rank", and a very rigid one. Lords and Peasants, Soldiers and Merchants. Even the priests in the Zen monastery were ranked high and low, from Master to Novice. Most of the lay people that a Zen Master might be speaking to would be ruling officials of very high rank. Perhaps the most famous use of the phrase is by Master Linji [Master Rinzai], and may not have been such a confidence builder to the poor ego of the pushee monk ...

Rinzai instructed his assembly and said, “There is one true person of no rank, always coming out and going in through the gates of your face. Beginners who have not yet witnessed that, look! look!”

Then a monk came out and asked, “What is the one true person of no rank?” Rinzai descended from the rostrum and grabbed him. The monk hesitated. Rinzai pushed him away and said, “The true person of no rank – what a shit-stick you are!”

Probably, in the hands of such Zen Masters (Uchiyama Roshi also talks about this nature of Self in our readings), they are referring to the "no rank" which drops "self/other, this vs. that, inside/outside, up and down, left and right, good and bad, beautiful vs. ugly etc. etc." 'Tis the Ultimate beyond division, name, classification, comparison. Thus, they pointlessly point to this "no rank" which comes in and out of your senses, because your senses and brain then impose all the divisions and classifications of "me-ness" including "self vs. others, up and down, beautiful and ugly and all the rest."

It is pointing to something much bigger ... boundless, in fact ... beyond the question of whether our little day to day ego feels good about itself or not. Thus Is Buddha! High, beyond small human judgments of high or low. So, the focus is not really the lack of confidence of our little self, but to get past the little self completely. Then, one finds a Big C Confidence in all Reality which transcends and is right at the heart of all little "confidence or no confidence, gain or lack, win or lose."

However, I do think our society faces a disease of people with too big egos and confidence in their abilities (maybe it is all the lawyers I know! ) and also people too weak and fragile in ego. I agree that balance is important here. I have been doing some reading on how recent generations of American middle class kids are "over-confident" in their abilities, mostly because they have been getting prizes and praise for everything they do since they were kids ... and they are a little shocked when they don't get that in the workplace as much (best to praise their efforts and "stick-to-it-ness" if one is to praise anything).

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/1...o-much-praise/
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...limenting-them

Training and effort must be combined with a positive attitude about oneself, but at the same time we must stay very very humble and not become over-confident. A fine, wise balance. I like to think that folks like the Buddha and Dogen and Linji were very confident about their projects to teach and maintain a Sangha, but also humble, not over-confident, accepting the ups and downs while never quitting.

And it is also vital to know this "person of no rank" beyond all compare ... no up no down, no better no worse, no me or you, beautiful or ugly, no eye or hand ... who is in your every glance of eye and gesture of hand, and fills this world of up and down, better or worse, me and you, beautiful and ugly. The "person of rank" and the "person of no rank" are not two!

Dogen was actually not such a fan of Linji's "person of no rank" (if it is just meant as some kind of blank slate) unless we also recall the "person of rank" who must bring this life to life each day through our thoughts and actions ... He wrote ...

Linji's total power to say something is just "the true person without rank," but he still has not said, "the true person with rank." He has not realized what remains to be studied, what remains to be said; we can say he has not reached the ground of penetration.

alternative translation:

“The strongest way that [Linji] phrased it was merely as ‘a real person who is beyond rank’; he still had not phrased it as ‘a real person who has a rank’. He had not yet displayed any other ways of exploring this through his training or any other ways of putting it. Thus, we must say that he had not yet reached the field of the Ultimate.”

Maybe what Dogen means [Uchiyama says much the same in this week's readings] is that to just realize the "no me/other, no up/down, no beautiful/ugly" of no rank is not enough if we do not bring it alive through our words, thoughts and acts in this world of "me/other, up/down", bringing a little beauty right here.

Something like that.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Byrne]

Thank you Jundo.

Gassho

Sat Today

[RichardH]

Thank you Jundo.

Dogen was actually not such a fan of Linji's "person of no rank" (if it is just meant as some kind of blank slate) unless we also recall the "person of rank" who must bring this life to life each day through our thoughts and actions ... He wrote ...

Linji's total power to say something is just "the true person without rank," but he still has not said, "the true person with rank." He has not realized what remains to be studied, what remains to be said; we can say he has not reached the ground of penetration.

alternative translation:

“The strongest way that [Linji] phrased it was merely as ‘a real person who is beyond rank’; he still had not phrased it as ‘a real person who has a rank’. He had not yet displayed any other ways of exploring this through his training or any other ways of putting it. Thus, we must say that he had not yet reached the field of the Ultimate.”

Maybe what Dogen means [Uchiyama says much the same in this week's readings] is that to just realize the "no me/other, up/down, beautiful/ugly" of no rank is not enough if we do not bring it alive through our words, thoughts and acts in this world of "me/other, up/down", bringing a little beauty right here.

Is there any word on what the Rinsai folks response is to this?

Gassho
Daizan

sat today

[Byrne]

Kyonin,

Comics are easy. You can do it.

In the back of your mind set out to do a three panel comic of something. Anything. The more it means something to you personally the better. One day you'll be walking around doing the things you normally do and 3 panels with a beginning, middle, and end about SOMETHING will come to you. Then flesh it out to the best of your abilities. Keep hacking away and editing it until the idea comes across. If you enjoyed yourself do another. It can go as shallow or deep as you like. You don't need to worry about getting hired by Marvel or DC. My buddy in Macon GA has been working in that world for 30 years. He's done some very successful comics but those cats go through the RINGER in that industry. Drawing for that is stressful. Drawing for yourself and possibley others to enjoy is a joy.

Gassho

Sat Today

[Jundo]

Thank you Jundo.





Is there any word on what the Rinsai folks response is to this?

Gassho
Daizan

sat today

Master Rinzai's PR guy did have a press release, but I can't find it.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Jundo]

By the way, I also added this to what I wrote, because I was not confident about it ...

It is pointing to something much bigger ... boundless, in fact ... beyond the question of whether our little day to day ego feels good about itself or not. Thus Is Buddha! High, beyond small human judgments of high or low. So, the focus is not really the lack of confidence of our little self, but to get past the little self completely. Then, one finds a Big C Confidence in all Reality which transcends and is right at the heart of all little "confidence or no confidence, gain or lack, win or lose."

[Kyotai]

Thank you Jundo, and Daizan for this post.

Gassho, Kyotai
Sat today

[Kyonin]

Thank you Jundo!

Oh and what I meant with what I said about comic books, was not to say I have hard feelings for the past. I meant that to me a rank or approval was important. Now it isn't.

I have no rank whatsoever and when I see myself giving ranks (even for me) I go sit

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

[Jika]

A person of no rank can assume the role of any rank, while being bound to none.

This resonates with me.

Thank you all for your thoughts and explanations.

Gassho
Jika
#sattoday

[Jishin]

Maybe what Dogen means [Uchiyama says much the same in this week's readings] is that to just realize the "no me/other, no up/down, no beautiful/ugly" of no rank is not enough if we do not bring it alive through our words, thoughts and acts in this world of "me/other, up/down", bringing a little beauty right here.

I think this is the most important point in Zen that is often missed (by me too).

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Myosha]

Hello,

Drawn to practice by our Teacher -

“A fool sees himself as another, but a wise man sees others as himself.”

- Dōgen, How to Cook Your Life

Distinction is good fun.

"There's only Bozo's on this bus." - Firesign Theatre


Gassho
Myosha sat today

[RichardH]

This resonates with me.

Thank you all for your thoughts and explanations.

Gassho
Jika
#sattoday

Hi Jika. I'm talking here as a teacher of painting on canvas only... on the Dharma I happily embrace the rank of junior student... so please do take with a grain of salt.

Gassho
Daizan

sat today

[Washin]

Thank you, Daizan, for a great post and all for their comments.

And it is also vital to know this "person of no rank" beyond all compare ... no up no down, no better no worse, no me or you, beautiful or ugly, no eye or hand ... who is in your every glance of eye and gesture of hand, and fills this world of up and down, better or worse, me and you, beautiful and ugly. The "person of rank" and the "person of no rank" are not two!

Thank you Jundo

Gassho
Sergey
sattoday

[Jika]

Hi Jika. I'm talking here as a teacher of painting on canvas only... on the Dharma I happily embrace the rank of junior student... so please do take with a grain of salt.

And I was talking as a patient caring for patients... who is the one who has knowledge, on what side of the bed?
I do not put myself into ranks of the Dharma, no worry
I'll go "Just Sit!".

Gassho,
Jika
#sattoday

[alan.r]

Thank you, Jundo, for the clarity, and Daizan, for starting the discussion.

Gassho,
Alan
sat today

[Joyo]

Daizan, I think you described the person of no rank perfectly. Thank you all for your posts and sharing here.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Gukan]

Thank you Daizan, there's much food for thought in that.

I liked this too, from the Existential Buddhist blog: http://www.existentialbuddhist.com/2...an-of-no-rank/ "Imagine walking into an encounter with no idea of your status in the relationship. I don’t mean being oblivious to what you imagine the other person thinks of you. I mean having no evaluation, positive or negative, about your own worth. You just are who you happen to be in this moment. Any concerns about what the other person thinks about you are irrelevant to your own worth since you have none. You don’t exist anywhere on that scale. The other person’s evaluations only matter in terms of how they’ll affect the likely outcome of the transaction.

You are now free to do whatever seems necessary or skillful. You don’t have to ask whether it’s your place or right to say something. You don’t have to worry about how you’ll feel if the other person thinks poorly of you. You only have to ask if it’s skillful and likely to turn out well.

What would it be like to negotiate the world in this way, moment after moment? We can simply be what is needed in each situation to the degree our energy and judgment permit. We would go through life neither up nor down but just here."

Very powerful and liberating.

Gassho,
Libby

sattoday

[Jundo]

Thank you Daizan, there's much food for thought in that.

I liked this too, from the Existential Buddhist blog: http://www.existentialbuddhist.com/2...an-of-no-rank/ "Imagine walking into an encounter with no idea of your status in the relationship. I don’t mean being oblivious to what you imagine the other person thinks of you. I mean having no evaluation, positive or negative, about your own worth. You just are who you happen to be in this moment. Any concerns about what the other person thinks about you are irrelevant to your own worth since you have none. You don’t exist anywhere on that scale. The other person’s evaluations only matter in terms of how they’ll affect the likely outcome of the transaction.

You are now free to do whatever seems necessary or skillful. You don’t have to ask whether it’s your place or right to say something. You don’t have to worry about how you’ll feel if the other person thinks poorly of you. You only have to ask if it’s skillful and likely to turn out well.

What would it be like to negotiate the world in this way, moment after moment? We can simply be what is needed in each situation to the degree our energy and judgment permit. We would go through life neither up nor down but just here."

Very powerful and liberating.

Gassho,
Libby

sattoday

Hmmm.

Just offering a personal opinion, it sounds like a lovely ideal. But I really wonder if such human interaction is possible, and I doubt we are wired for it. It sounds very idealistic. I am reminded what happened in Chinese communism when they sought to impose such an ideal, with everyone dressed in identical "Mao Suits" and equal on paper. However, soon it became hard to identify who was in charge in any group and making decisions, so the system they devised included the leaders having the most pockets on their ideally equal clothing ...

The Mao suit was also, supposedly, about classlessness. In reality different cuts demonstrated differing statuses. ... While lowest ranking officials had to make do with a Mao suit made from itchy grey cloth, and middle ranking officials from polyester, those who stood at the top of the food chain received suits in more luxurious wool. A higher number of pockets also signified a higher political status and rank.
http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/201...o-suit-endures

Certainly, I do not know any place in the Zen or Buddhist world which has been so rankless. In fact, throughout its history, since the Buddha began to lay out rules for which monks of which seniority could sit in which chair ... and later, in the the top down hierarchy of the Zen monastery ... it has been anything but that. Everyone has a very firm rank, thank you, and the "up/down" relationships are very clear.

A hierarchical view of the world – of people, but also of things – has been an important part of Buddhism from its origin. While the Buddha challenged many of the hierarchicies of his day (caste, for example), this often did not translate into significant differences at the institutional level (the vast majority of early monks appear to have come from the two highest castes). At the same time, it was the Buddha himself who appears to have put into place a fairly strict hierarchy that governed the relationship between the different kinds of clergy, and between the clergy and the laity. In Buddhist terms this hierarchy is constructed as an etiquette: who should show respect to whom, who should bow down to whom. All non-monastics were supposed to bow down to monks and nuns. Even kings (the highest of men) were supposed to bow down to novice nuns (the lowest of ordained women). Within the clergy, nuns of all ranks (including fully ordained nuns) were supposed to bow down to monks of any rank (including novices). Within the order of monks and nuns, respectively, novices had to bow down to their fully ordained peers, and within a single level of ordination, those who were ordained later were supposed to prostrate to those who had been ordained before them.
http://www.chinabuddhismencyclopedia...stic_Community

[Traditional instructions for serving "sweet hot water" tea in a Chinese Zen monastery around Rinzai's time... Buckingham Palace may be more relaxed ... ]

[A]n invitation is extended to the old and new officials of the major and minor positions, and especially to the west hall ranking official and the retired officials as honorable participants. The seats and name tablets must be set up in terms of the four divisions. The new training faculty officials’ seats are set in the first section (i.e., front right of the hall), the former faculty officials in the second section (front left), the former administrative officials in the third section (middle right), and the estate management official and treasury administrative official in the fourth section (middle left). Additional seats are prepared for the new administrative officials as a group in the main section, but only the new director of practitioners’ affairs is supposed to take a seat as participant. The seats of the retired officials who participate in this serving must be arranged in the fashion previously referred to in the serving of sweet hot water at the abbot’s office, [namely, the retired officials of the east and west orders should be placed on the right side of the main seat and the left side of the participant’s seat, respectively]
http://www.bdk.or.jp/pdf/bdk/digital...zhang_2006.pdf

I very much doubt that Rinzai and the other Zen Masters who spoke of the "Man of No Rank" while sitting in the High Seats at the front of the room meant so. In fact, in that age, the Abbot of the Zen monastery had become the central object of worship in the community, even sometimes topping the Buddha statues and Buddha himself. Great equality and democracy in a Buddhist Sangha is a western innovation unheard of in Asia.

Ah, the good old days, when nobody challenged what the Abbot said! If only I had it so easy.

Frankly, I think such statements as the following seem very unrealistic. If you go into a kitchen, and their is no clear head chef, no clear apprentices, no clear dish washers, no clear desert chef, no assistant chefs under the head chef doing what they are told to do ... who knows what to do, who decides the menu, who tells the others to do a better job? No need to be a tyrant, that is for sure, but somebody has to be in charge and somebody has to follow orders.

You are now free to do whatever seems necessary or skillful. You don’t have to ask whether it’s your place or right to say something. You don’t have to worry about how you’ll feel if the other person thinks poorly of you. You only have to ask if it’s skillful and likely to turn out well.

I fear that the roast beef won't be done on time, the dishes will be left piled in the sink.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[RichardH]

Hi. I agree with Jundo. Ranking in some form is part of an always developing world. For instance in the painting class I am giving instruction because there is thirty years of handling paint and solving problems. The people learning to paint do not have that experience. Maybe the "no rank" difference is that these "ranks" are not fixed boundaries but relationships where we all learn something, and my heart is not bound by it. The point in the OP is not that everyone has equal skills.... some are very skilled (have a good sense of paint properties, can describe an object in accurate proportion...etc.) and some people are not so skilled and need much more support. But everyone can make an authentic mark from where they are. Even a simple drawn line can show the difference between when someone makes a mark directly, and when they get in their own way with judgements. That doesn't mean there is no evaluation.

Gassho
Daizan

Sat today

[Jishin]

Hi,

In Alcoholics Anonymous a person with 20 years of sobriety may tell a person with one week of sobriety that they have the same rank to emphasize respect for the disease of addiction. Both recovering alcoholics have been sober since waking up. Both risk losing the sober rank of no rank by being less than humble.

Sobering fact.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

PS: If you want to see some truly awakened people, people that have been to hell and back and have seen the light, you don't need to go any further than your local 12-step meeting.

[Rich]

In the outer world of function, roles and ranks are necessary. In the inner world of being there is no rank. My respect and interaction with the pope is the same quality as with the beggar.
Pope Francis is pretty cool with this.

SAT today

[Jundo]

In the outer world of function, roles and ranks are necessary. In the inner world of being there is no rank. My respect and interaction with the pope is the same quality as with the beggar.
Pope Francis is pretty cool with this.

SAT today

There is no difference between Pope and Begger, all just Buddha, all Jesus, all without rank.

And yet the Pope is the Pope and the Begger the Begger. The College of Cardinals is not led by a Begger, nor do millions flock to hear him. One sleeps in a palace, one in an alley. Perhaps it would be a better world if we elected a Begger to head our institutions, letting our Popes fend for themselves in the streets.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Rich]

Thanks Jundo.
How is the sometimes beggar Taigu?

SAT today

[Gukan]

Yes, I really had the inner world of being in mind, rather than the outer getting-things-done world where roles/ranks/whatevers are rather important

I went to look around a school with my daughter last week where the ethos of equality and respect was palpably expressed in the way staff and children interacted with each other. Everyone's voice deserved to be heard - but not all the time! All were of equal worth - but the head teacher was still the boss!

Well, I guess I didn't express it very well. I knew what I meant

Libby
sattoday

[Sekishi]

To (badly) paraphrase Alan Watts: if I hand you a stick or twig and say "break off the left side", you'll hand me back two sticks, each with a left side. Presto chango!

In the minds of sentient beings, left is defined by right, and right is defined by left. The same is true of up and down, light and dark, and lowly and worthy. All completely empty.

And yet, life is lived within forms created by a particular rank. Lets say my rank is "white middle class male in Virginia in the early 21st century". I cannot deny the effects of that rank (access to food and medicine and material comforts, enough time and money to pursue hobbies and projects, etc.).

I believe that to truly be of "no rank" is to both see the empty nature of lowly and worthy, and to see (and work on) how lowly and worthy manifest in the world.

But thats just my opinion man.

Gassho,
Sekishi
#sattoday

[Jundo]

And yet, life is lived within forms created by a particular rank. Lets say my rank is "white middle class male in Virginia in the early 21st century". I cannot deny the effects of that rank (access to food and medicine and material comforts, enough time and money to pursue hobbies and projects, etc.).

I believe that to truly be of "no rank" is to both see the empty nature of lowly and worthy, and to see (and work on) how lowly and worthy manifest in the world.

But still I hope we can do much to make the divisions less wide, and make sure "low rank" and "high rank" are not so economically and socially far apart in this world. The 1% have too much power. People in this world are too poor while others live too well.

Jefferson said "aｌｌ men are created equal", but that left out the women and slaves! He also meant that every man is theoretically born equal, but he still knew that some ride in carriages and some live in the streets. I hope we build a world where everybody has at least a human level of food, shelter, education, health care, representation in government, opportunity.

By the way, even though somebody has to be the manager in the monastery or the office or the restaurant kitchen, still, no need for tyrants. The relative democratization that has happened to Buddhism as it moved from Asia to the West is a good thing. Somebody still needs to be the bus driver, telling the passengers to sit and be quiet and no smoking, turning the wheel and explaining the route to new riders ... keeping things moving in the right direction ... but we are all bozos on the bus.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Sekishi]

But still I hope we can do much to make the divisions less wide, and make sure "low rank" and "high rank" are not so economically and socially far apart in this world. The 1% have too much power. People in this world are too poor while others live too well.

Agreed 100%. As I said "to see (and work on) how lowly and worthy manifest". I guess in contemporary terminology that can mean both acknowledging "privilege" (we could Buddify that by saying "karma that flows from a higher rank"), and using it to enact change in the world as best we can.

Gassho from another bozo on the bus,
Sekishi
#SatToday

[Jika]

when nobody challenged what the Abbot said!

You are now free to do whatever seems necessary or skillful.

because there is thirty years of handling paint and solving problems

Thank you for the interesting thread.

I am reminded of my boss.
I work in a very traditional hierarchy, and from cloths to office size you'll know immediately who is the "chef in the kitchen".
All beginners are afraid to question anything the boss says.
I have made the experience that since I accept he is the most experienced, I can also challenge him if I think it to be necessary and do so in a skillful way (to my best ability, which often does not mean much, but he knows me by now).
In fact, he said he appreciates it a lot, because sometimes it lets him review things and come to a new conclusion.

I think this is about mutual respect and trust:
To fully accept the hierarchy, but not be too intimidated by it.
Trust each other to still think freely, for the sake of best results.

I have not heard many Zen storys or sutras yet, but isn't that a way of teacher-student relationship too?
Sometimes the Buddha gets asked strange things, but through that he comes to a wonderful teaching.
If no "lowly" had dared talk to the ancestors, addressed the abbot, we would not have so many stories.

Deep bows
Jika
#sattoday

[Jundo]

Thank you for the interesting thread.

I am reminded of my boss.
I work in a very traditional hierarchy, and from cloths to office size you'll know immediately who is the "chef in the kitchen".
All beginners are afraid to question anything the boss says.
I have made the experience that since I accept he is the most experienced, I can also challenge him if I think it to be necessary and do so in a skillful way (to my best ability, which often does not mean much, but he knows me by now).
In fact, he said he appreciates it a lot, because sometimes it lets him review things and come to a new conclusion.

I think this is about mutual respect and trust:
To fully accept the hierarchy, but not be too intimidated by it.
Trust each other to still think freely, for the sake of best results.

I have not heard many Zen storys or sutras yet, but isn't that a way of teacher-student relationship too?
Sometimes the Buddha gets asked strange things, but through that he comes to a wonderful teaching.
If no "lowly" had dared talk to the ancestors, addressed the abbot, we would not have so many stories.

Deep bows
Jika
#sattoday

Hi Jika,

That is just my attitude too. A manager ... whether in an office or kitchen or Zen Sangha ... who doesn't listen and accept disagreement is not a good manager. At the end of the day, a decision has to be made, and not everyone will agree or be happy. However, it is important to listen to the group.

Even in the Zen temples in Japan and China, the importance of "building group consensus", is vital. The Abbot cannot be a tyrant. He needs to listen, accept criticism, but then render a decision, hopefully with the consensus of the group. Sometimes, not everyone in the group will agree with the decision. (That means in Japan, by the way, that once the decision is made, members of the group will tend to go along even with the decision they first resisted in order to maintain group harmony. It is dangerous to have the group pulling in opposite directions over every decision ... although hopefully somebody will point out if the Titantic is truly heading to an iceburg). The group has to work to build harmony and go along as much as the manager has to listen to the group.

Gassho, Jundo

[Jakuden]

Hi,

In Alcoholics Anonymous a person with 20 years of sobriety may tell a person with one week of sobriety that they have the same rank to emphasize respect for the disease of addiction. Both recovering alcoholics have been sober since waking up. Both risk losing the sober rank of no rank by being less than humble.

Sobering fact.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

PS: If you want to see some truly awakened people, people that have been to hell and back and have seen the light, you don't need to go any further than your local 12-step meeting.

I totally believe this. What respect I have for those people... there are those who choose death from alcoholism over sobriety because it is the easier path...

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

[Risho]

I feel compelled to write about this; it's such an interesting topic and thread! Daizan thank you; I had no idea that this was such pertinent question and important aspect of practice to myself as well.

This probably echoes what has been said to some extent; how could it not? We're all just clown fish (stealing from the bozo's on the bus. lol) swimming in the same aquarium. hahah

Anyway, this reminds me of the freedom and flexibility that this practice has to offer amid a seemingly binary world. That freedom can also be constricting; now let me reel this back in and see if I can explain this.

I can't remember exactly, but I think it was Shunryu Suzuki who was the teacher in this anecdote. The student and teacher were going back and forth, and finally the student said why do you always point to emptiness and not form?!!! The teacher replied because you are stuck in form, so I was showing the other side. Or it's like in the US. We are really really individualistic, so instead of pissing on the Buddha, our practice may need to focus more on bowing because that's where we're stuck. Zen is about removing that stuckness by going right into the messiness of where we are stuck in life.

This relates to no-rank because of course (and has already been stated here) hierarchies matter. I think with this and other ideas in Zen, there is a superficial layer and then you get into the heart of it. I think that hierarchies are necessary for things to function, but we often times switch roles in those hierarchies. Sometimes our role is to bow, sometimes our role is to lead. The way of no-rank is to not be stuck. Completely, wholeheartedly execute your role whatever the situation requires, and by that you exercise no-rank. As the CEO, you may need to be a janitor or a customer service rep. The higher in rank you get, the more roles you need to fulfill. You float between roles freely.

This happens in my job; I am a senior engineer but, ultimately, grasping to that "rank" is not healthy. If someone comes to me for help I am always first and foremost a customer service representative. I treat my job like that; to steal from Uchiyama Roshi, that would be Parental Mind.

A very wise leader in the corporate world once told me, most people think leaders are on top of a pyramid and their employees follow them and support them, but a true leader knows that it's the opposite. A true leader is on the bottom supporting their people.

You see that ethic here. Jundo states that explicitly with the priests in training. I've listened to talks where other zen teachers say the same thing. When you become a priest, you've earned a place at the bottom of the pile.

So in that way, it is no rank. You'd think that being a leader or a teacher would mean you are the boss, but being a boss is all about doing what others don't want to do, supporting others, not rejecting them, being there, guiding them.

So this no-rank thing has some very serious consequences in our lives.

I think sometimes these phrases are saying something that is quite simple, or not simple, subtle. But digging through the cryptic/archaic language throws me off. Someone just said this in another post; they said "it would be easier if we rephrased this to black and white"; I'm sorry, I cannot remember who said that but it I think it's a really good point.

I also think zen keeps an eye on potentiality; I think it allows us to open ourselves beyond our limitations. Even if we cannot read, we can read in a way or we could not learn to read. It's the same with being awake. Even though we may not act in an awakened manner, we are already Buddhas or we would have no possibility to learn how to live in an awakened manner.

So in that way, even though we fulfill a necessary role in a specific time/place, we are not completely defined by that role. We can switch, and we often have to. We grow and change into those.

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

[Shugen]

Thank you Risho.

Wherever the resistance is, that is where the practice is.

We are all in this together.

Gassho,

Shugen

#sattoday


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[treebeard]

Rank as regarding leadership is one thing, but rank can also apply to value. Going by value, we are all equal value because we are all part of the same universe and valuing/ranking oneself over another would be delusion. A teacher/leader, in my perception, should not think they are any more valuable than their student but merely a servant/helper of sorts.

Gassho,
Paul
Sat today

Sent from my Z813 using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

Rank as regarding leadership is one thing, but rank can also apply to value. Going by value, we are all equal value because we are all part of the same universe and valuing/ranking oneself over another would be delusion. A teacher/leader, in my perception, should not think they are any more valuable than their student but merely a servant/helper of sorts.

Gassho,
Sat today

Sent from my Z813 using Tapatalk

Hi (would you mind to sign your human first name, Treebeard?)

Also, do not forget that every person, cell, blade of grass, drop of dew, atom, star, mountain peak or valley, good day and bad day, birth and life, sickness and death, beautiful scene and saint or battlefield and villain (when we get past seeing it and them just for what they appear) ...

... is a shining jewel in a universe which is itself a shining jewel.

One might say that each and all in this world is "Top Rank".

Gassho, J

SatToday

[treebeard]

Hi (would you mind to sign your human first name, Treebeard?)

Also, do not forget that every person, cell, blade of grass, drop of dew, atom, star, mountain peak or valley, good day and bad day, birth and life, sickness and death, beautiful scene and saint or battlefield and villain (when we get past seeing it and them just for what they appear) ...

... is a shining jewel in a universe which is itself a shining jewel.

One might say that each and all in this world is "Top Rank".

Gassho, J

SatToday

Sorry, I forgot to put my name on. It has been awhile since I posted.

Gassho,
Paul
sat today


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[alan.r]

I like that a lot, Risho. Feels right in regards to my experience of work/social life. Thank you.

Gassho,
Alan
sat today

[Jakuden]

I can't remember exactly, but I think it was Shunryu Suzuki who was the teacher in this anecdote. The student and teacher were going back and forth, and finally the student said why do you always point to emptiness and not form?!!! The teacher replied because you are stuck in form, so I was showing the other side. Or it's like in the US. We are really really individualistic, so instead of pissing on the Buddha, our practice may need to focus more on bowing because that's where we're stuck. Zen is about removing that stuckness by going right into the messiness of where we are stuck in life.

This paragraph really rings true to me Risho, "to attain the buddha way, a way non-attainable." I have to keep reminding myself. If there is a rank, then something has been attained, which means you have no longer "attained" something else. Such a delicious discussion!

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday