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  1. #1

    SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: I Don't Believe in Buddha!!


    I have a confession to make: I don't believe in Buddha.

    It may be shocking for a Buddhist priest to say so, as shocking as hearing a Catholic priest say he "doesn't believe in Jesus". But it's true nonetheless. I am a Buddhist priest who thinks "Buddha" is largely bunk and baloney.

    At least, I think there's a lot of "bull" to how Buddha is typically portrayed. I think many of the utterly fantastic Mahayana Sutra stories of Buddhas are ridiculous ... hyper-exaggerated ... just unbelievable! (meaning that they cannot be literally believed any more than children's fairy tales). The imagery is incredibly beautiful ... but the tale just incredible nonsense, purely the product of human imagination. I think the image of a "Perfect Buddha" ... either in this world or some Buddha Land ... as a flawless being beyond all human weakness, conflict and ignorance ... is a fable, a religious myth. I think most of the old miracle filled stories are well meaning fictions, sometimes holy lies, and the golden statues and paintings of Buddhas are but depictions of exaggerated dreams.

    Oh, I believe that there was a man who lived whom we now call "the Buddha", but I think what happened over the centuries' is his victimhood to a process of hagiography. A Buddha or Ancestor dies (same for Jesus, saints and holy men in other religions) and ... century by century ... those in the religion (looking from afar at what the attainments actually were on the part of their "religious icon" and with need to depict the top value of the religion) go over the top, start to imagine, fantasize and exaggerate the wonderful nature of the teacher and teaching into something super-human. A flesh and blood teacher who was merely "Great, Profound and Wonderful" must unfortunately becomes someone "Magical, Miraculous and Mythical" ... all to the point of Malarky. The worshipful dip the man in gold, remove all human qualities and gradually turn their hero into a statue, a super-hero. As a result, "Buddha" is no more real than "Beowulf" or "Batman".

    However ... my doubts about make believe "Buddhas" are not important to my Buddhist practice in the least.

    As well, although I do not believe in imaginary Buddhas ... I believe in Buddhas.

    Better said, I know Buddha for a fact!

    How? What? Let me explain.

    I believe in ... I KNOW ... Buddha in many ways, each Real as Real can be.

    One way is to see that such Buddhas (Bodhisattvas too) exist as a paradigm, an ideal, a goal representing the best of the human condition to which men and women can aspire. As I said in a talk last week on Kannon, the symbol of Compassion: It does not matter that she "may not be really real", for we make Kannon "really real" in life:

    I had a hard time, for many years, incorporating into my practice many figures such as Kannon and Jizo ...

    I have come to see "them" as archtypes, representing real characteristics of human life and (since we are just the universe) thus the universe.

    In other words: When we feel in our hearts and act upon Love and Compassion, thereby Love and Compassion exist as real, concrete aspects of the world which our hearts and acts create. There is no "inside" or "outside" ultimately, thus what is inside you is just as much "the universe" and concrete reality as the moon, gravity and the stars. That is "Kannon", in that way a real and concrete aspect and 'force' of the world. Her 1000 helping hands are our hands, and our actions make her real in the world.
    As with Bodhisattvas, so it is with the Buddha, all the Buddhas. Wisdom and Compassion realized in each of us is the realization (meaning both "the discovery" and "the making real") of Buddha in the world. We make Buddha real, Kannon and the other Bodhisattvas too. (Mara and the Devil too if we act badly).

    Next, I believe in the Buddha when I prove the worth of the Buddha's Teachings in my own life. The proof here is right in life's pudding. The Teachings are the Truth of Buddha that we can each verify in our lives. The Heart of the Buddha's teachings ... the Four Noble Truths, the Eightfold Path, Non-Self, Non-Attachment, Dependent Origination, the Middle Way, so much more, ... are all here now and can be known to all of us ... worth the whole ticket of admission!

    What's more, I recognize that the fantastic stories, the idealized images of Buddhas ... even the most incredible allegories and hallucinatory images of the Mahayana Sutras ... are merely attempts to convey these wondrous Truths and Teachings, to show their power. Even if I do not take the Sutra stories literally, I can dig what they are trying to say behind the wild way they do it. In that way, even the most bizarre image found in some Sutra tale is True if the Teaching it attempts to convey is True.

    And ultimately, although I do not believe at all in so-called "Awakened Buddhas who have mastered the Dharma 100% and are Perfect Beings beyond all human flaws" ... I believe through and through in "Awakened Buddhas who have mastered the Dharma 100% and are Perfect Beings beyond all human flaws".

    Huh? Sounds like a contradiction there? Sounds like I am speaking out of both sides of my no sided mouth? Well, get over it. This Buddhist Way allows for countless "contradictions" held in total harmony!

    You see, I believe in Buddhas who are Perfectly Buddha, Perfectly Reality ... beyond small human concepts of the "pure" and "impure", fully manifesting and enlivening the Dance of Emptiness. That is a kind of Purity and Perfection when there is dropped all human judgments of the stained vs. the pure. I believe in Buddhas who are always moral, never breaking a Precept ... for there is no Precept that can ever be broken, nothing to steal or do violence to, and no separate 'other' to take or injure in any way. Yes, Virginia, there is a Buddha beyond all thought of lack or flaw! In fact, in the realm of Real Buddha, even small minded judgments of "real" and "unreal" cleanly drop away.

    And when we couple this Great Buddha with the Buddhas we make real in our lives ... by manifesting Wisdom and Compassion in our thoughts, words and acts ... we have a way to manifest that Perfect Buddha right here in the Saha world. We do our best in this life to live Compassionately by the Precepts avoiding harm. We fill ourselves with Prajna Wisdom, seeing this world for the 'dream within a dream' it truly is. At the moment, Buddha and all the Great Bodhisattvas are also real as real can be, walking the earth.

    The extreme and exaggerated stories of Buddhas' powers are but a mental mirror reflection of human imperfections, extrapolated to the ultimate by men based on seeing what men are now not. These images are themselves just 'Made in Samsara'. Paintings of 'Nirvana' are themselves imperfect goods of Samsara! Yet, there is Nirvana, this Perfection swallowing all small human mirages of perfection and imperfection ... and such is Buddha!

    Thus, Buddhas are but fables and lies, Buddhas are human aspirations, Buddhas are True Teachings, Buddhas are Whole and Complete beyond "full" or "lack", Buddhas live and breathe in the world when we live and breath like Buddhas.

    The Buddhist Path is Real

    Liberation is Real

    Buddha is Real

    Today’s Sit-A-Long video follows at this link. Remember: recording ends soon after the beginning bells; a sitting time of 15 to 35 minutes is recommended.

    Last edited by Jundo; 05-03-2015 at 11:11 AM.

  2. #2
    Thank you just what this doubting thomas needed to find tonight. I don't trust in magic or mythology. But do know in my heart the good that the Buddhist path can do me and the good I can do in the world if I follow it. Nice to be reminded that belief in something that cannot be proven is not required

  3. #3
    Thank you, Gregor, for pushing up this thread in the list.

    Discovering, that Shikantaza Zazen is part of the steep and serpentine path, I am walking, came (after trying) quite naturally.
    Calling myself a "buddhist" however does not. And this has nothing to do with not accepting the buddhist teachings.
    I've been resisting setting up an altar in my grasshut for quite some time. Some weeks ago, I did, leaving the statues place empty as a symbol for embracing the Void, not the Buddha (which I know is the same, but saying "Buddha" to it felt like cheating/betraying somehow).

    I've arrived here with about twenty prior years practicing weekly (and the time between) in an old "humanistic" tradition from the west, that's trying to help/teach the individuals to make themselves a better person.
    There are ancient rites, lots of special bowing, quite- and calmness and very lovely symbolism in it. But without being a religion.
    There is also an altar, which isn't that different, from an buddhist altar. But it's only in the temple, not in the individual homes and only the keeper of the light (master/teacher) handles the symbols on it.

    Personally, I have to be very careful, not to do things to "belong" to the others doing it, longing for acceptance, love and father figures.
    Very recently, resisting is fading a little and curiosity and explorers mind gets on top again.

    Thank you very much, Jundo for helping me exploring and smoothing my path, not only with this talk.
    I am still not calling myself a "Buddhist", knowing that this is not the end-point in my development.

    I am already writing too much, but that stroke my heart and had to be said.

    By the way,
    finding a small "Manjushri on Shishi" statue and a very nice Mokugyo made me ordering them (financial benefit of a Zendo-organisation).
    The "seller" is from a different city, but visited his girlfriend in my hometown over this weekend. He asked if I'd like to receive the "wares" hand to hand, coming over for a short "hello".
    I feel very much rewarded for giving my mind the chance to explore something more "traditional", like a Buddha-statue.
    It turned out to be a very nice forenoon with a Soto monk and a Rinzai nun with silence and friendly talk in the garden.
    I gave them some small Agarwood pieces as incense to express my thanks and they returned a piece of Palo santo wood as such.

    I am so thankful for "giving Buddha a try" and getting to know this fine people.
    Today, after sitting with this talk, chanting, offering incense (Palo santo this time) in front of Manjushri and Shishi felt so much the right thing...

    Ralf sattoday,
    古庭 KoTei / Ralf

  4. #4
    Thank you Jundo

    sat today

  5. #5
    Anyone else around here take Calculus? In many equations that describe the physical world, "infinity" is an important number. In elementary school arithmetic, we learn about a number line, which has no start or end... then we spend years learning math, working with the limited numbers, geometrical shapes, etc. that our minds can grasp in between the ends of that number line. Is practicing Zazen is like a function in Calculus where x goes to infinity? Math tells us infinity exists, but our minds can't see it.... life tells us Buddha exists, but our minds can't grasp it.


  6. #6
    Treeleaf Unsui / Engineer Sekishi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Virginia, USA
    Hi Sierra,

    I minored in mathematics in college, and despite my hopes that it would help makes sense of the world, it didn't help me all that much. Ditto for philosophy (but I still love them both in their way). This post prolly won't help either.

    Anyhow, to continue your analogy, maybe Zazen helps us "integrate" the Dharmakaya. Normally we try to count each and every lemma (continuing the calculus analogy), though there are an infinite number of them (by definition!). We try to peer into the future, and relive the past, one lemma at a time. In Zazen, we let them go, and allow them to be just what they are - infinite in number, creating a beautiful curve, or graph, or flower, or tumor, or bullet. To a Bodhisattva, all functions are continuous!

    A completely different analogy from mathematics (the philosophy of mathematics in particular) is an age old debate between the "Mathematical Realists" and the "Mathematical Anti-Realists". The realists argue that mathematical concepts exist independently of human minds (or any other sentient beings capable of perceiving them). These concepts are DISCOVERED, not invented. The anti-realists argue that mathematical concepts exist through formal rules only, which may sometimes align with entities "in the world", but are ultimately useful fictions. (BTW: I am not doing either side justice, but its tough to sum up in a sentence or two.)

    Anyhow, this struggle reminds me so much of the heart sutra - form and emptiness, being and non-being, difference and unity. I think the price of sentience is living in a universe that we have cut and shredded into uncountable separate pieces using logic and symbols. Sentience is the act of creating me, you, black, white, up, down, matter, energy, life, and death. Sentience allows us to perceive the difference between the road and the guardrail, the tiger and the puppy. Mathematics does not really exist, the lemmas between x=0 and x=1 in this curve are infinite, but 1+1=2 and we really CAN integrate the volume under that curve! A miracle!

    So for me, Zazen is setting in the space between existence and non-existence, realism and anti-realism, self and non-self.

    But I'm a doofus about math, and even moreso about the Dharma, so YMMV.


    As a novice priest-in-training, this is simply an expression of my opinion. Please take it with a grain of salt.

  7. #7
    Gee it sounds like the realists and the anti-realists would end up in the same place though, pretty much? Finding a way to describe the indescribable in our limited terms, be it language or mathematics... whether the rules are there and we discover them, or we invent and apply them, they are not two.

    Anyway, I like Sekishi's Theorem on Sentience and Zazen!


  8. #8
    Treeleaf Unsui / Engineer Sekishi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Virginia, USA
    Quote Originally Posted by Sierra529 View Post
    Gee it sounds like the realists and the anti-realists would end up in the same place though, pretty much?
    Yeah, delusion. ;-)



    As a novice priest-in-training, this is simply an expression of my opinion. Please take it with a grain of salt.

  9. #9

  10. #10
    Old post, but I just saw it and wanted to thank Jundo for an excellent talk. I feel more and more at home at Treeleaf with these kinds of teachings.


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