Why do I avoid my practice?

[disastermouse]

Usually when I sit zazen, it's actually very easy. It's also usually pleasant, not that I try to make it pleasant, but frequently it's a rest from automatically acting on thoughts and feelings and instead letting them wave around in space with nothing to drag around. Life is allowed to be very simple, just breath in and out, sounds going around, my back aching or what have you. There is no urgent need to improve anything or fix anything or prevent anything. It's not like going on an exotic vacation or doing anything special, it's like just being at home - the world feels very friendly and instead of assessing each sensory input to gauge whether it's friend or foe, these things don't have to be decided.

I'm always surprised by how good it feels and how peaceful it is - even though I've sat zazen thousands of times. Why do I forget this? Why is it that sometimes many days pass by and I don't sit zazen?

Chet

[Hans]

Dear Chet,

you ask: "Why do I forget this? Why is it that sometimes many days pass by and I don't sit zazen?"

Obviously I cannot know why,because I am not you, however allow this novice to make a wild guess.

Maybe, it is simply because you have not made sitting Zazen into a real habit yet. Creating habits is just as difficult as destroying habits. Once the habit has firmly grown roots right into one's daily life, it becomes your best ally.

Just like brushing one's teeth. After a few years of forcing oneself (or being forced by one's parents) to do it twice daily, you just do it. It doesn't matter anymore whether your breath stinks, your teeth are rotten, or whether there is absolutely nothing wrong with your teeth. You just do it. Why? Because you do it. Period. Sometimes massaging your gums is nice, sometimes it isn't. But you do not have to think about doing this practise anymore.

Since you seem to have no problem with discipline when it comes to working out, may I suggest you just set yourself a realistic sitting goal and stick to it for one year, no matter what. Completely detach yourself from ideas about why and how - and just do it. After that, sitting daily should come easy. But then again, everyone is different and my suggestion might work for some and could be poison for others.

I am not qualified to tell you what to do, so all I can offer here stems from my own limited experience alone.

The short version of the above paragraphs would be: Create a habit through goalless discipline.

It worked for me, but everyone has to find their own way ultimately.

Gassho,

Hans

[Rich]

I think Hans is right. You have to make it a habit so you just do it. If you think about it you'll find a reason not to do it. You'll question yourself with ideas like 'is this really any good' or 'I can skip today and I'll be fine'. Just being present for one moment is worth the effort. Maybe you could try keeping your just sitting mind in all your activities then the actual sitting would be no different.

[Seiryu]

just an idea
Maybe your ego doesn't want you to practice, you know it is good for you and that is exactly why you forget. Because you don't want what is good for you. So I would suggest like what everyone else said to make it into a daily habit.



Gassho


Seiryu

[Dojin]

I must agree with Hans and the rest. a habit might help you. but there are other things that might be a reason for not sitting. it might be just that you are tired and when you sit late it feels like you must force yourself. i know because i sometimes sit late at night and am falling asleep so i can barely stay awake while sitting. another thing might be that when you sit and feel like you got it you might think you dont need sitting anymore and begin to cut corners. i am sorry for the comparison but sometimes psychiatric patients tend to stop taking their medication when they get better because they feel they dont need it anymore. might be something like that.

anyhow just my thought no the matter.

Gassho, Dojin.

[Heisoku]

I'm always surprised by how good it feels and how peaceful it is.

Don't be surprised Chet!!!!! I do zazen when I first get up, so I am only surprised at how bad I feel if I don't do it!!

I think on the thread about schedule rigidity some comments suggest that flexibility in practice is preferable. Personally I find a set time reinforces habit...but each unto their own. :wink:

[Eika]

Hi, Chet.

I'm not sure how helpful this is, but here's my story (which has some similarities in the beginning).

I started sitting in 1994 (breath counting) and would sit every day for about a month or two at a time, then gradually shift into sporadic practice until I wasn't sitting at all for a few months. Then I'd come back to it in great seriousness, only to drift away gradually again. This cycle continued for more than 10 years. I attribute part of it to not having a sangha or a teacher to inspire and inform my practice, and part of it to youthful lack of discipline. Whatever the case, I ran hot and cold with practice until about 4 years ago. Various life-events made that a particularly stressful time and I returned to sitting as a relief. Somewhere in those first few weeks back, I found Treeleaf and made a vow to myself to practice. Especially just before Jukai, I had this feeling that to really do Zen in the serious way my "spiritual ancestors" (TNH's term) did, I needed to live up to some minimum expectations. For me this meant sitting everyday. I still feel that way mostly, "Am I living up to the standard I inherited when I took Jukai?" So, once that priority was set, sitting has been solidly consistent. The only days I have missed since joining Treeleaf were because of the flu or migraines. I treat these vows just like wedding vows: not to be entered into lightly, not to be taken for granted, and a lifelong commitment. Pretty damn serious when I say it like that. But, ultimately, it is about priorities for me. In the list of things that must be accomplished everyday, zen practice is one of the higher priorities (along with other things like food, shelter, family time, etc.).

I have no idea if this helps or applies to your life in any way. I offer it only because something "clicked" in my life a few years ago, and since then finding time for sitting has never been a problem.

Gassho,
Eika

[AlanLa]

Avoidance serves a function, but that function can sometimes become dysfunctional, as in not helpful. These kinds of functions tend to be personal idiosyncrasies, so only you can know what function avoiding zazen provides you. What do you get out of avoiding it? The answer is the function of your avoidance. Then, once you know the answer (which is probably nothing simple and might require lots of time to figure out or understand), then you let it go.

In a very real way, I think this sums up our practice overall. We find our hindrances and then we let them go.

[Heisoku]

Thankyou Eika for reminding me of the power of 'vow' and of my jukai vows.

Deep gassho.

[disastermouse]

It's just weird to me that although zazen is usually pleasant and feels right, I somehow keep forgetting that and avoid it. This thread is an expression (written after zazen) that it's so weird to me that although sitting zazen feels like the very best thing to do, I still somehow avoid it.

I had zazen as a daily habit in my early 20s and it became obsessive and unhealthy, but I think that this time it wouldn't be.

[Heisoku]

Hi Chet

I don't know if you've changed your practice much...but..you sound so much....calmer...coherent and easier to read now!!! Its a revelation actually!
Best wishes in your endeavours.

[Jundo]

Hi, Chet.

I'm not sure how helpful this is, but here's my story (which has some similarities in the beginning).

Hi Eika,

I know that you also teach music at the concert level. How does one get students motivated to do their scales and other practice?

I think there might be some similarities, as our practice may be a bit like learning to play beautiful music on life's piano.

Here, one gets grades even though there is no way to fail.

Gassho, J

[Stephanie]

Pick up Unlearning the Basics off of your bookshelf and read pages 51-52

(I would quote it here for all to read but typing two pages of book text with an iPhone is an exercise in masochism I'd rather avoid...)

[Keishin]

Hello Chet and to all others posting here!

Why? Why indeed! Forget 'why.'

I think avoiding practice actually in some strange way is part of practice.

It changes over time. It is not the same for everyone. Face to face with self and there is no escape. Even if you never sit again, there is no escape from practice, having ever practiced. Let's call it practice in suspended state. Like seeds in the dry soil of the desert. It is practice awaiting circumstances to arise and flower.

We could psychologize 'why' (maybe it is so much of a 'good' thing you don't 'deserve' it; maybe you don't believe it will always be so 'good,' and so you avoid encountering that possibility). But while it is entertaining and might even once in a great while come close to or hit the mark, 'understanding' is not necessary and (from my experience) is unnecessary.

It is what it is. So. That being the case: Sit. Avoid sitting. Avoid avoiding (sit). Avoid avoiding avoiding sitting (don't sit).

Some people sit (to avoid other things).

I'll wager that thinking about the sitting you are avoiding is a form of sitting itself albeit a remote form.
I think this kind of thinking is a way I can soothe or excite myself--depending on what I am thinking of.

I can take this thinking and go ahead and sit anyway--I can say to myself: avoid all you want for the next 15 minutes! and set a timer and sit down. I can give myself permission to continue avoiding, if that's how it is going to be, and I can also give myself permission to 'sit' if I want to after all.

Sometimes I think it is the thought of sitting that gets me avoiding sitting, not the actual sitting of sitting.

Apologies, Chet, for not making much sense here, but the situation you are describing isn't one that can be REASONed out of, Spock would tell you it isn't logical. This doesn't mean it doesn't have it's own mysterious logic to it.

I haven't found a way through it--when I have had bouts of avoiding sitting, I just have had bouts of avoiding sitting...sometimes they've lasted a brief time, sometimes a longer time. Like breathing a short breath or a long breath I have just been aware that some bouts are brief and some are longer. I return when I return.

Good luck to you, and to us all with this recurrent theme

[disastermouse]

The original post was more an exclamation of wonderment over the situation than anything else, I think.

[Heisoku]

I get what you are saying Chet.
Maybe we are pushing up against our personal conditioning, the self in some form, when we feel this inertia.
Like typing in a forum when I should be typing school reports :mrgreen:

[Risho]

Pick up Unlearning the Basics off of your bookshelf and read pages 51-52

(I would quote it here for all to read but typing two pages of book text with an iPhone is an exercise in masochism I'd rather avoid...)

Thanks for the recommendation Stephanie!! And it's on iBooks!!! woohoo (I notice the iBooks selection is growing in terms of Buddhist books... it was pretty sparse when I first got the app; it's still missing a lot but at least it has more than just TNH's stuff (not that TNH is bad but I like a variety). Realizing Genjokoan just came out (or at least I just noticed it the other day).

In any case, back to Chet's point. I do the same damned thing! With everything... everything. Working out, eating right, zazen. It feels good when I'm doing it or did it, but it's easy to lose that consistency. I'm not offering advice because I just don't like doing that sort of thing; personally, I find that it's easier for me to get back into the swing of things if I don't focus so much on why the hell I'm not doing them. But like I said this is something I do; it doesn't always work.

Gassho,

Risho

[Stephanie]

This post has bothered me, and I find myself still wanting to say something about it.

You avoid your practice because you live your life in a way that goes in the opposite direction of practice. I am not on a high horse, I struggle with the same "duality" in myself, between the wisdom seeker and the self-serving jerk/idiot/moron.

Chet, you frustrate and fascinate me because you have this natural kindness in you that seems very pure when it comes out, but it's like you spend most of your waking hours fighting against it, and living in the most self-centered way possible. What do you think the outcome is going to be? That kensho you had when you were 19 doesn't mean shit. You are Number One at the center of your universe with all your strategies for how to escape anything frustrating. That is what you are doing with your mind for most of your waking day.

Again, as much as I'm calling you out, I include myself in my indictment. I sit zazen and read my nice little Buddhist homilies before I go to bed, on the nights I even manage that, and then proceed into the next day with my blowtorch of vicious judgment on full blast and constantly thinking about how Me just hasn't gotten what it wants yet, and it's the fault of this or that so-and-so. Sheer ignorance just as the Buddha described it. And it's what you do too.

[disastermouse]

This post has bothered me, and I find myself still wanting to say something about it.

You avoid your practice because you live your life in a way that goes in the opposite direction of practice. I am not on a high horse, I struggle with the same "duality" in myself, between the wisdom seeker and the self-serving jerk/idiot/moron.

Really? My whole life, huh? The 4-5 12 hour shifts I do at work are purely self-centered? You really can't do my job if you're completely self-centered.

Chet, you frustrate and fascinate me because you have this natural kindness in you that seems very pure when it comes out, but it's like you spend most of your waking hours fighting against it, and living in the most self-centered way possible. What do you think the outcome is going to be? That kensho you had when you were 19 doesn't mean shit. You are Number One at the center of your universe with all your strategies for how to escape anything frustrating. That is what you are doing with your mind for most of your waking day.

Once again, I really don't think I live in the most self-centered way possible. Natalia certainly wouldn't agree with that; I don't think Joe or Dan would agree with that. A perfect example of this is when Natalia showed up at 1930 to find me still asleep - she'd called and texted a few times, but instead of assuming I was avoiding her - she just showed up because she figured I was sleeping. And I just woke up and we went from there. No drama at all. So maybe some of what you see in me is a little bit you. Not all of it, certainly, but some of this is resentment on your part, IMHO.

Joe's close friend and roommate was just T-boned and killed right in front of him while they were motorcycling with a group of friends. When Joe wanted to bring his friend's PS3 over to take movies and photos off it so his friend's family could have them (first thing in the morning after work) because Joe has no idea how to do it, I said 'Of course.' When Natalia wants forms printed out so she can get her documents sent out to be verified so she can become an RN in this country - even though struggling with that stuff is literally the most frustrating thing I can imagine, I do it - because really, who else is going to?

If you needed some money to pay for gas or food while you're waiting for your check to come in, you know I'd not deny you. Not a loan, because I don't loan money - but a gift. Only as much as I could freely give, but it'd be freely given.

Once again, you really need to know where I started here - Nursing has opened me up a whole lot, as much as it frustrates me. I try not to over-commit because it's been disastrous in the past. As far as strategies to escape frustration - I once again bring up nursing. 'Frustrating' is the calling-card of nursing. I spend more time in the pursuit of this frustrating 'practice' than any other single area of my life.

So yeah, I'm a bit of a self-centered man-child - but I'm much LESS so than I was even six years ago. And what started me on this path was that very first experience when I was 17. It was the START of the path for me, not the end. I've never claimed that it was the end.

Again, as much as I'm calling you out, I include myself in my indictment. I sit zazen and read my nice little Buddhist homilies before I go to bed, on the nights I even manage that, and then proceed into the next day with my blowtorch of vicious judgment on full blast and constantly thinking about how Me just hasn't gotten what it wants yet, and it's the fault of this or that so-and-so. Sheer ignorance just as the Buddha described it. And it's what you do too.

I think you're projecting your own inner battle on me here a little bit. Not completely, but a little bit. You seem unhappy with yourself in a way that I'm not unhappy with myself. There are parts of myself that I find disappointing, some of them even frightening - but I don't go to war with them anymore. I rarely even get depressed anymore, and I certainly don't have the sort of self-loathing or feelings of monstrousness that I once did.

I must say here - none of this is indictment or said in anger or unfriendliness - but I sometimes feel a distortion in what I feel you are trying to project on me - both good and bad.

*gassho*

Chet

My post wasn't really looking for solutions to a problem - but to put it out there that it's so odd that although zazen feels 'right', I still avoid it sometimes.

[Stephanie]

Chet, you work for a paycheck, you complain about it frequently, and you talk smack about your patients and coworkers, and how much you dislike your job. You talk about wanting another job or to move to another country.

You've paid for my meal once. The two times you've talked up wanting to give me a gift, you didn't do it either time. I've never seen you as a go-to person for financial help. Remember when I wanted that Netbook, and you were willing to sell it to me for $300? That's about as far as that goes. You never tell me anything about myself you respect or admire. You are not generous with money or words, at least ad far as my experience goes. Or time. You have done and said really fucked up things to me. It's absurd, but doesn't surprise me you want to paint yourself inore honorable colors in a public forum.

You don't understand my inner battle because you don't have it. I don't hate myself. I just want to be a better person. I don't know how you are with Joe or Natalia. Maybe they get to see a different side of you. But while I have learned from you, I don't want to be like you. You think you are more spiritually advanced than me, and that is fine. Our standards are different. You project onto me too, because my current battle isn't about self-loathing. I don't think I am an awful person. I just know that I am wearing grooves into my character that go in a different direction than wisdom, and want to work on that. If you don't want to learn or change anything, that is fine with me.

[disastermouse]

Chet, you work for a paycheck, you complain about it frequently, and you talk smack about your patients and coworkers, and how much you dislike your job. You talk about wanting another job or to move to another country.

You've paid for my meal once. The two times you've talked up wanting to give me a gift, you didn't do it either time. I've never seen you as a go-to person for financial help. Remember when I wanted that Netbook, and you were willing to sell it to me for $300? That's about as far as that goes. You never tell me anything about myself you respect or admire. You are not generous with money or words, at least ad far as my experience goes. Or time. You have done and said really fucked up things to me. It's absurd, but doesn't surprise me you want to paint yourself inore honorable colors in a public forum.

You don't understand my inner battle because you don't have it. I don't hate myself. I just want to be a better person. I don't know how you are with Joe or Natalia. Maybe they get to see a different side of you. But while I have learned from you, I don't want to be like you. You think you are more spiritually advanced than me, and that is fine. Our standards are different. You project onto me too, because my current battle isn't about self-loathing. I don't think I am an awful person. I just know that I am wearing grooves into my character that go in a different direction than wisdom, and want to work on that. If you don't want to learn or change anything, that is fine with me.

I think your perspective is distorted, and I think that given time to reflect, you'll realize this. There was a 9 hour trip to NJ, shoveling snow for your car (and taking shit from my landlord for it), time to help you with your fitness goals, a crash over for a job interview.... You do this when you feel hurt by me sometimes (lash out and paint me into some weird shadow of who I am) - although in this case I'm not sure what it is I've done.

I don't think I'm spiritually advanced at all, really - I just don't trust most others in religious matters.

As for complaining about my coworkers and job - you really wanna portray my venting about a stressful job that way? Alright. Fair enough - but I've listened to you about your job, your family - and you actually DID move away from a job and situation you didn't like. Do you feel the same way about your actions and decisions as you do about mine?

You can call me if you start to see me in a better light. Good luck with the new job.

Chet

[disastermouse]

Also, I should note that when I was worse in my 20s, I sat zazen everyday. So I'm not really sure what me being a horrible, detestable person has to do with me not sitting zazen. It feels like you feel hurt and just want to take a shot at me.

[Stephanie]

I was not trying to lash out at you at first. I felt like there was something you weren't seeing, and wanted to share how I saw in you something I saw in myself. I came at it from that perspective, of wow, this really doesn't work to have a seamless flow from the cushion to life off of it when you are spending a lot of time wearing samsaric patterns and habits more firmly into your mind and life. I shared it in the spiritthat maybe your question was sincere. I think this is a legitimate point, one we can all learn from.

But then you turned it around into elevating yourself at my expense. You then even had the balls to claim how generous you've been with me when you haven't. You came to New Jersey because you wanted to. Yes, we both vent about jobs to one another, what I was pointing to was you claiming your job as a stamp of your compassionate virtue, when I never hear you talk about it that way. I have had frustrations with job and life but I am happy in my field. You very frequently say you don't like being a nurse. So to claim it as something you do out of compassion, a choice you make because of those you serve-bogus.

I never had any intention to start going into specific criticisms of you on a public forum, but once you started going at me, and even worse, making completely untrue claims about how you are and have been with me? Yeah, it's on.

I don't really care what you do, it's been apparent to me that you're not really my friend for quite some time, so it's not like you're taking something away that actually had much meaning for me any more.

[Adam]

Usually when I sit zazen, it's actually very easy. It's also usually pleasant, not that I try to make it pleasant, but frequently it's a rest from automatically acting on thoughts and feelings and instead letting them wave around in space with nothing to drag around. Life is allowed to be very simple, just breath in and out, sounds going around, my back aching or what have you. There is no urgent need to improve anything or fix anything or prevent anything. It's not like going on an exotic vacation or doing anything special, it's like just being at home - the world feels very friendly and instead of assessing each sensory input to gauge whether it's friend or foe, these things don't have to be decided.

I'm always surprised by how good it feels and how peaceful it is - even though I've sat zazen thousands of times. Why do I forget this? Why is it that sometimes many days pass by and I don't sit zazen?

Chet

Hey Chet,

To stay on the original topic, I too have felt this way in the past. For me, I try to stay on a schedule to sit every night at the same time regardless of what is going on. Sometimes, it varies, but usually it's around the same time every day. In addition, I've found that once the thought of zazen enters my mind, I should go sit because more times than not, my ego thinks of ways to avoid sitting. I think we all go through this and it's hard to say exactly why we seem to avoid the cushion, but that's part of the path. Thanks for your post. Look forward to hearing more.

Gassho,

Adam

[disastermouse]

I didn't come after you, I just said that I didn't feel like your vision was clear in saying our situations are so similar. Am I not free to disagree? Saying I disagree and that I think you're projecting is saying 'I think you're wrong' not 'I'm better than you'.

I don't hate my job and patients often actually often say 'You look like you love your job.' Really. I'm critical of the issues - but it's not usually my patients that are what is driving me up a wall - it's the stress of trying to get everything right without killing anyone by missing something or getting something wrong. I especially resent what I see as psychotic decisions from management because it stresses us unnecessarily. Recently it's so bad that one of our most laid-back and professional coworkers (I'm really hoping she will try to be our new manager now that our old one left on short notice) - she's freaking out because it's gotten so stressful and dangerous.

Also, it's not that I hate nursing, it's that although it's got something to teach me, I don't know if it's my endpoint.

I only came to New Jersey to visit because you made it very clear how much it meant to you. I'm sorry if you think I had some burning desire to see New York (even though my lack of curiosity about it was something we've talked about).

Anyone who interacts with me on this forum can see that I haven't realized yet in my life many of my experiences on the cushion - I hardly think you're the first person to notice that.

[disastermouse]

Another thing, Steph: I hate to even criticize you for this since I do it so much myself - but you tend to interpret me disagreeing with you as me not listening to you or respecting your opinion. Now sometime that's a perfectly good interpretation because there are a lot of times that's true - but there's a very real need you project that I validate your opinion - and your criticism of me - or there's hell to pay and we have to hash is out for a thousand years.

I'm not under any obligation to validate your opinion or make you feel heard - and frankly, sometimes I'm just not able.

[Stephanie]

As entertaining as I'm sure this is for other forum members, I'm not going to continue with the drama. I've said my piece, to alert people to the fact you may be an unreliable reporter. Maybe my first post used more extreme language than I should have used, but my general intent was to say, this is a real issue that reflects on the question you asked, as it's something I have in myself and see in you too. That's all that should have been said, and no more will be said here by me.

[KvonNJ]

...am I alone in thinking, "What the hell...??!!"

[Jundo]

Hi,

Perhaps take it outside ... and, hopefully, work it out.

Be gentle with each other ... we all step on each others toes sometimes.

And we all get caught up in our little mind theatre sometimes ... and often my mind theatre goes crashing into yours.

Gassho, J

[disastermouse]

Hi,

Perhaps take it outside ... and, hopefully, work it out.

Be gentle with each other ... we all step on each others toes sometimes.

And we all get caught up in our little mind theatre sometimes ... and often my mind theatre goes crashing into yours.

Gassho, J

*gassho*

[Shogen]

Usually when I sit zazen, it's actually very easy. It's also usually pleasant, not that I try to make it pleasant, but frequently it's a rest from automatically acting on thoughts and feelings and instead letting them wave around in space with nothing to drag around. Life is allowed to be very simple, just breath in and out, sounds going around, my back aching or what have you. There is no urgent need to improve anything or fix anything or prevent anything. It's not like going on an exotic vacation or doing anything special, it's like just being at home - the world feels very friendly and instead of assessing each sensory input to gauge whether it's friend or foe, these things don't have to be decided.

I'm always surprised by how good it feels and how peaceful it is - even though I've sat zazen thousands of times. Why do I forget this? Why is it that sometimes many days pass by and I don't sit zazen?

Chet

Perhaps, the utter simplicity of zazen is just too much for a complex mind to accept as a path to truth.
" The truth is simple; it just requires simplicity to realize it." ( or something close) Platform Sutra
Gassho, Zak