Taking lives as a good thing?

[disastermouse]

Right. Okay, you go follow your Zen - we'll all be over here waiting for you. Don't let the years and sheer numbers of people who have explicitly stated that awakening is not a goal to be attained deter you. Clearly, we must all be wrong.

No, I didn't say that at all. I apologize deeply if this is how I came off.

You are all probably right. The thing is, Chet, that zen and mahayana is not the only perspective. Yes, I know, I know, this is a zen sangha, but I'm still pretty much influenced by theravada teachings, that in many cases correspond with my own experience of reality. I'm really sorry if this is bothering you, and if you want, I can keep my mouth shut if it's not proper to express these views in a zen context. Really, I didn't know, I'm not just trying to please you by saying that. Because it does seem to offend you, but maybe I'm just reading you wrong?

No, you don't offend me - I just have a hard time containing my frustration most of the time and that causes me to speak a little bit more harshly. I hope that doesn't offend you actually.

Let me get this straight - you've been on this path for six years or so and you still think that awakening is something fundamentally different and separate from delusion? No offense, but what exactly the fuck have you been doing on that cushion'? An awakening that can be attained is exactly a conditioned thing - only an awakening that can neither be attained nor lost is unconditioned.

No offense taken. I believe, perhaps wrongly, that once it is attained, it becomes unconditioned. It is unconditioned, not uncaused. But you don't have to reply to that one, I see a whole row of "what the fuck!"s coming my way if you do . Just kidding of course.

Read Nagarjuna please. It is difficult text, but basically, if something can become - it is conditioned and cannot thus become unconditioned. Conditioned things do not suddenly become unconditioned.

Once again, I don't mean to offend so much as shock you out of your complacency with what you think you know. Please feel free to do the same to me, as I know I often need it.

Chet