enlightentment, is it exist

[Shui_Di]

Hi, guys, I just think whether enlightenment exist or not?

In my opinion, enlightenment is exist and not exist.

In relative point of view, we can't deny that sakyamuni buddha has a great wisdom. That's why he's called the enlightened one. Some one who has no any ego again. So, it's not true, if some one think that enlightenment is not exist.

But, in the absolute point of view, there is no different betwen enlightened or not. What is called ego is not exist as well. No delusion, that's why nothing to achieve. For example, in diamond sutra Sakyamuni Buddha said that Buddha didn't achieve anything.

But anyway, I don't think too much about all of the above. All of this just the product of the mind.

Remember, when the first time you was born, did you even think about all of these stuff?

Gassho, Mujo.

_/|_

[Jundo]

Thank you, Shui Di,

I neither agree nor disagree. :wink:

No, I did not think about all this stuff when I was born. I only thought that I was hungry!

Gassho, Jundo

[Jinho]

Greetings Mujo!

While it is true that everything has enlightened nature, the issue is whether one can experience this great understanding that we call "enlightenment". It is the difference, but non-separation, of "intrinsic enlightenment" and "manifesting enlightenment". This "manifestation" is not only manifested in what we call external actions but also in our consciousness/internal understanding/experience.

(According to the stories written 200 to 500 years after he died) there was a person known as Shakyamuni who fully experienced this understand we call "enlightenement". But Zen Buddhism does not stop there, with Shakyamuni, Zen Buddhism says EVERY PERSON not only is intrinsically enlightened but has the capability of fully experiencing and manifesting enlightenment. But intrinsic is not the same as experiencing/manifesting, theory is not the same as doing/being. And we have the second vow (Delusions are inexhaustible, I vow to cut through them all) to keep us from incorrectly believing that we are manifesting enlightenment before we actually are. (And a little enlightenment, bit by bit, does make a difference, at least it very much does make a difference in my life).

yours, with hope for more and more understanding,
gassho,
rowan/jinho

PS - a small note on the second vow. The version above is Seung Sahn's version. I like the "cut through them all). The more common version is "delusions are inexhaustible, I vow to end them". Many traditions use "desires are inehaustible" but I like "delusions" since I feel that is more inclusive and precise.