Special reading - once born twice born zen (part not 2)

[Jundo]

Howdy,

I'd like to continue this special series of "readings that will help in understanding Zen readings" with a bit more of ...

Once-Born, Twice-Born Zen by Conrad Hyers

I agree with those folks who think the "Once-Born Twice-Born" categories are a bit black/white and broad brush. I do think the book helpful, though, in appreciating these contrasting, but complementary flavors of Zen practice. The descriptions are pretty accurate portraits of these two "not-two schools" of approach, I find.

As always, I emphasize that it is not a question of insisting that one way or the other is the "only way" or even "right way".

This week's reading can be downloaded here (PDF) ...

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1m9U...ew?usp=sharing

Gassho, J

[Tb]

Hi.

Rather good text on the differences between the two types, but i would also like an text on their similarities.

Even if it is a gradual process, the "moment of change" is sudden...

The basic difference i have always thought is whether you "arrive" or "are already" "there".
But what if there's a third option?

And i agree somewhat with the closing lines.
People today more and more just "enjoy the Sitting", and forget about the "finding one's original nature".
But is that wrong?

Mtfbwy
Tb

[Rich]

Very interesting reading.

Practicing just sitting here and now and letting thoughts come and go is a choice. Choosing to use a koan eventually becomes the same choice. so Soto, Rinzai produce the same result.

It's always arriving, so thinking you've arrived is too late.

Sometimes the sitting is enjoyable but not so much if its more than 30 minutes. If you are just trying to sit and accept and let go of the things that come and go then forgetting about the "finding one's original nature" is OK.

Even though we are all of the same substance or self, we still have an individual role to play in the present moment and some may be more suited to Rinzai or Soto depending on the time.

Just my thoughts
Rich

[Jundo]

Hi.

Rather good text on the differences between the two types, but i would also like an text on their similarities.

Hi Fugen,

Hmmm. I believe that the text covered differences and identities in some detail, and was pretty fair in presentation. Look at it a bit closer.

Two wondrous paths of Zen practice ... running side by side and often merging, crossing, on the way to here & no where

Gassho, Jundo

[Tobiishi]

"Soto...may play only in the shallow waters of mental control (joriki) instead of moving more deeply and fully into a realization and expression of one's Buddha nature. Instead of living more and more in the immediacy of original enlightenment and allowing that to pervade more and more of one's life, one may be satisfied to merely enjoy the momentary therapeutic benefits of 'sitting quietly, doing nothing,' and to use faith in one's original nature to rationalize the status quo... If Rinzai can become artificial in its method, Soto can become superficial in its realization."

How to avoid superficiality? It seems to me one must start with sincerity in their faith and practice, and quietly let the superficiality of ignorance be subsumed like rising waters overtaking an island. Thoughts?

_____________________________

My favorite part of the chapter was the metaphor of the fisherman on the lake, and the admonition to stop racing around, for you can't catch fish that way. Sit still, let waves go by, and put your line in the water. I would take it a step further:

Cut the barb off the hook
cut the line from the pole...
kiss the worm, and
throw the whole lot into the lake.

Now you have caught the lake.

gassho
tobiishi

[John]

Soto...may play only in the shallow waters of mental control (joriki) instead of moving more deeply and fully into a realization and expression of one's Buddha nature. Instead of living more and more in the immediacy of original enlightenment and allowing that to pervade more and more of one's life, one may be satisfied to merely enjoy the momentary therapeutic benefits of 'sitting quietly, doing nothing,' and to use faith in one's original nature to rationalize the status quo...

Yes Tobiishi - that section caught my attention as well. I hope I am 'living more and more in the immediacy of original enlightenment and allowing that to pervade more and more of one's (my) life' but maybe I am doing the latter? Nor can I see how one can use 'faith in one's original nature to rationalize the status quo?' Is it through developing some kind of passive complacency?

Gassho,
Doshin

[Tobiishi]

Passive complacency, yes.

I think it is easy to 'learn' how to do shikantaza, superficially, and to then grow stagnant. I mean, we're just sitting there, right? So some effort is required to keep from drowning, unconsciously, and becoming just another zenny bump on a log.

I have come from a Christian background, which I have put at some distance from myself. Therefore, the idea of faith in anything makes my hackles rise. I'm discovering, however, that the old adage that 'everyone has faith in something, even if its nothing' is true. There is a place for faith in the efficacy of Buddhism, even beyond the idea of efficacy. I'm just not sure at what point I would discover that I had become complacent- the nature of the human mind would suggest that I wouldn't find out until I was well under water.

gassho
tobiishi

ps- I'm hoping Jundo or Taigu will chime in here- I'm out of my depth!

[Jundo]

Passive complacency, yes.

I think it is easy to 'learn' how to do shikantaza, superficially, and to then grow stagnant. I mean, we're just sitting there, right? So some effort is required to keep from drowning, unconsciously, and becoming just another zenny bump on a log.

I have come from a Christian background, which I have put at some distance from myself. Therefore, the idea of faith in anything makes my hackles rise. I'm discovering, however, that the old adage that 'everyone has faith in something, even if its nothing' is true. There is a place for faith in the efficacy of Buddhism, even beyond the idea of efficacy. I'm just not sure at what point I would discover that I had become complacent- the nature of the human mind would suggest that I wouldn't find out until I was well under water.

gassho
tobiishi

ps- I'm hoping Jundo or Taigu will chime in here- I'm out of my depth!

Well, I often compare this practice to a mountain hike ... a lifetime hike ...

I have found that, through many years of practice, it is a never ending exploration ... always something new is revealed over time, always another corner or vantage point disclosed. Never ending, something like a long love affair in that way. Always a new surprise, an insight, a discovery awaits ... (and a lot of bumpy times to be surmounted too!)

My friend Nonin likes to say, "A moment of Zazen is a moment of Buddha. But 25 years of Zazen is 25 years of Buddha".

It is also Buddha 25 years more mature.

Of course, any "hike" inevitably will seem like a "lost trudge" sometimes, as if the path is lost. It will not always pass lovely or breathtaking scenery, and sometimes may seem way off course.

We all go through times when it seems "nothing in happening" and we are "getting nowhere" in this practice (and I do not mean in the good Zenny way of "no where to get to" ... I mean that it feels we are at a 'dead end'). Then, suddenly, like drops of rain wearing away a mountain, one realizes that this practice has seeped into one's bones ... slowly, slowly.

There is a certain enthusiasm, trust and energy we must bring into our sitting to make sure that we stay vibrant, and do not turn into just lumps on a log (over the long term, I mean. We all have lumps-on-log days). We may even go through weeks --and months-- when it seems that the practice has lost its way, and we think "there seems to be no point" (and I do not mean a good Zenny way of "there is no point" ... but more "this is pointless"). Fear not! That is the time for trust in the practice.

Stick with it and the tallest mountain will be walked ... step by step, worn away ... drop by drop

Gassho, Jundo

[John]

There is a certain enthusiasm, trust and energy we must bring into our sitting to make sure that we stay vibrant, and do not turn into just lumps on a log (over the long term, I mean. We all have lumps-on-log days). We may even go through weeks --and months-- when it seems that the practice has lost its way, and we think "there seems to be no point" (and I do not mean a good Zenny way of "there is no point" ... but more "this is pointless"). Fear not! That is the time for trust in the practice.

Thanks Jundo and Tobiishi,

Yes, faith in the practice can be hard to keep up in the long term as you sit on your cushion day after day and nothing seems to be happening. We are such impatient creatures! Lately I have been studying Tibetan Lojong teachings and I suspect it is because they give you something more active to do, like the Tonglen meditation practices. But I suppose that there are also plenty of other helpful ways of maintaining faith in our practice i.e. by keeping studying Zen books and by talking to others who are involved in the practice, like the people on this website and going on retreats etc. That's why we need a sangha,

Gassho,
Doshin

[Myoshin]

Thanks for the above posts!

I really like the modern cases of both traditions. If what is stated in the case of the Soto school is true then I am the same. I came to Buddhism only out of curiosity not out of some great turmoil in my life.

It seems in the writing that the Rinzai is more of an in your face path and Soto is kinda like a slow peaceful brook or stream. Both have a uniqueness that is kinda like a hook. When I first started reading up on Buddhism it was of the Rinzai flavor. I was entranced by the stories of Kensho and the 'big breakthrough' but I do not know if it is for me. Maybe a combination of both is best? I did like the similarities in the two schools though.

Gassho,
Kyle

[Dosho]

Hi all,

Interesting chapter, especially the more "modern" cases Kyle just mentioned. I found the metaphor of the lifeguard taking you out to drown just so you could appreciate being saved to be quite interesting, although I wonder if a Rinzai practioner would find it a good description. It appeared to me that the writer is more aligned with Soto, with a number of criticisms of Rinzai with one big jab at Soto right towards the end. I could be reading that wrong of course, but it was my impression. I could see someone who has practiced shikantaza for many years beginning to wonder if they are missing something, especially with all the yelling and hoohah-ing at the rinzai temple across the street. I suppose I'll see if anything like that occurs to me after a year, a decade, or a lifetime.

I will add annecdotally that more than a few people who consider themselves buddhists in the area started out at the Rochester Zen Center only to find themselves in other traditions within a few years. There is a common perception of Zen in this area as a bit sadomasochistic. When I have described my very narrow understanding of Soto to people they are usually unaware of such divergences from what is practiced at RZC.

Gassho,
Dosho

[Jundo]

.... I could see someone who has practiced shikantaza for many years beginning to wonder if they are missing something, especially with all the yelling and hoohah-ing at the rinzai temple across the street. I suppose I'll see if anything like that occurs to me after a year, a decade, or a lifetime.

I could yell and "hoohah" more around here if you's like! 8)

Actually, my understanding is that the author is a Presbyterian minister and Professor of Religion at a college, not particularly a Zen practitioner (I have found nothing that says he is a regular Zazener). Most of his writings which I could find seem to be on matters of Christianity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conrad_Hyers
http://www.google.com/search?source=ig& ... h&aq=f&oq=

But, you know, sometimes it takes a perceptive and well minded "outsider" to observe some things about a topic not so obvious to folks too close to the "inside". I found the descriptions in the book (as with the current reading on "Eight Types of Enlightenment") rather "broad brush" and sweeping ... but generally true.

Gassho, Jundo HOOHAH! :twisted:

[Jinyu]

Hi!
It's a bit late so a lot has been said!
I really like the descriptions of the practice even if sometimes it is a bit "manichean". But it is interesting to get an article who tried to define what's a part of Soto or Rinzai in Zen as folks usually see it. ( make sense?)

" In Rinzai the negative method is justified by the dramatic sense of liberation and explosive insight that may come from the torment. Soto prefers small, everyday insights. If some earth-shacking flash light comes now and then, fine; but large or small, thundering or quiet as a mouse, is not the issue. What is most important is steaday everyday practice on an even keel. In Soto, as it is said "Everyday is a good day".

I didn't know he was a Presbyterian minister, but maybe it explains that sometimes the texts is a bit "on the Soto side of things"... as Dosho just said :"It appeared to me that the writer is more aligned with Soto, with a number of criticisms of Rinzai with one big jab at Soto right towards the end. I could be reading that wrong of course, but it was my impression." It is also mine :wink:

Gassho to all!

Luis

[Dosho]

I could yell and "hoohah" more around here if you's like! 8)

Actually, my understanding is that the author is a Presbyterian minister and Professor of Religion at a college, not particularly a Zen practitioner (I have found nothing that says he is a regular Zazener). Most of his writings which I could find seem to be on matters of Christianity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conrad_Hyers
http://www.google.com/search?source=ig& ... h&aq=f&oq=

But, you know, sometimes it takes a perceptive and well minded "outsider" to observe some things about a topic not so obvious to folks too close to the "inside". I found the descriptions in the book (as with the current reading on "Eight Types of Enlightenment") rather "broad brush" and sweeping ... but generally true.

Gassho, Jundo HOOHAH! :twisted:

A few hoohahs here and there would be fine...just as long as I don't have to crawl under rope lines in the mud or jump out of an airplane. That might be a bit over the top.

You are quite right about what an outside perspective can offer and his background is interesting. My father taught religion for about 30 years at a community college and in high school planned to be a methodist minister. He has always had a negative view of zen, although I've never been able to get him to say why. He is a Toni Packer fan though...can't get him to explain that one either as he keeps his views close to the vest. The ultimate challenge will be finding out what he thinks of me practicing zen...I'm not thinking that's likely. :?

[Jundo]

You are quite right about what an outside perspective can offer and his background is interesting. My father taught religion for about 30 years at a community college and in high school planned to be a methodist minister. He has always had a negative view of zen, although I've never been able to get him to say why. He is a Toni Packer fan though...can't get him to explain that one either as he keeps his views close to the vest. The ultimate challenge will be finding out what he thinks of me practicing zen...I'm not thinking that's likely. :?

You'd be surprised (or maybe not) at the 'meeting of the heart&mind' that can occur on such matter between parents and children as the years pass (not always ... but very often). If dad is a Toni Packer 'fan', then he is a Zen 'fan' in some way deep down (Toni Packer is still a Zen teacher, whatever she labels it) ... and if he had a religious calling deep down, and taught religion for 30 years, I would bet that the common ground is not too far below the surface ... even if he wishes perhaps you had kept to the family religion.

My mother, later in life, was very open to the road I choose (my father years before). During the first few years, she had been concerned that "Zen" meant I would be hanging around airports in a bedsheet selling George Harrison CDs. When she had cancer, I even had her Zazening , and in the end, she asked me to perform a "Buddhist Jewish Whatever' funeral as clergy ... which I did.

By the way ... here is something I did with mom before she passed that I recommend to a lot of folks: I got a video camera and conducted about 4 or 5 hours of "interviews" (in the style of the American CNN show "Larry King" or the like), just asking mom questions and letting her respond. At first, we both thought that she would have nothing to say. But ya know, sometimes when people get talking about their lives ... well, 4 or 5 hours was no problem! Questions were very simple ... such as ....

- What was your toughest moment in life?

- What is your greatest memory in life?

- What is your advice for overcoming the tough times?

- What would you like to pass on to your grandchildren as a lesson in life?

- What is your view on God?

- Where do you think the world is going?

- How has the world changed over your lifetime, since you were a kid?

- Tell me about your parents.

- What would you change if you had to do it over again?

- What would you not change if you had to do it over again?

etc. etc. It is pretty easy to make a list. It was a real learning experience as we were doing it (I even found out a few stories and amazing facts about our family and her that I did not know ... and I thought I knew everything!). Now that she has passed, it is nice to have to give our kids too.

Gassho, Jundo

[Shohei]

No really important comment on the reading. I thought when i read it it sounded slanted to wards soto versus rinzai mostly, perhaps, i thought, it was my own likes/dislikes that amplified such a view. Im down with gentler means i think and even though i have no personal experience make a call that i "like" soto over rinzai... how fair is that? Something to think about i guess. No right or wrong way, Harder or Softer way, in the end it may be harder in my perspective, but just right for another. We all find our own path - and make of it what we can... and then see were standing in the middle of wide open field with with everyone else :P

Jundo Thank you for your last post here a wonderful idea!! Should do that sort of thing today! (well as soon as possible!)

Gassho Shohei

[Dosho]

You are quite right about what an outside perspective can offer and his background is interesting. My father taught religion for about 30 years at a community college and in high school planned to be a methodist minister. He has always had a negative view of zen, although I've never been able to get him to say why. He is a Toni Packer fan though...can't get him to explain that one either as he keeps his views close to the vest. The ultimate challenge will be finding out what he thinks of me practicing zen...I'm not thinking that's likely. :?

You'd be surprised (or maybe not) at the 'meeting of the heart&mind' that can occur on such matter between parents and children as the years pass (not always ... but very often). If dad is a Toni Packer 'fan', then he is a Zen 'fan' in some way deep down (Toni Packer is still a Zen teacher, whatever she labels it) ... and if he had a religious calling deep down, and taught religion for 30 years, I would bet that the common ground is not too far below the surface ... even if he wishes perhaps you had kept to the family religion.

My mother, later in life, was very open to the road I choose (my father years before). During the first few years, she had been concerned that "Zen" meant I would be hanging around airports in a bedsheet selling George Harrison CDs. When she had cancer, I even had her Zazening , and in the end, she asked me to perform a "Buddhist Jewish Whatever' funeral as clergy ... which I did.

By the way ... here is something I did with mom before she passed that I recommend to a lot of folks: I got a video camera and conducted about 4 or 5 hours of "interviews" (in the style of the American CNN show "Larry King" or the like), just asking mom questions and letting her respond. At first, we both thought that she would have nothing to say. But ya know, sometimes when people get talking about their lives ... well, 4 or 5 hours was no problem! Questions were very simple ... such as ....

- What was your toughest moment in life?

- What is your greatest memory in life?

- What is your advice for overcoming the tough times?

- What would you like to pass on to your grandchildren as a lesson in life?

- What is your view on God?

- Where do you think the world is going?

- How has the world changed over your lifetime, since you were a kid?

- Tell me about your parents.

- What would you change if you had to do it over again?

- What would you not change if you had to do it over again?

etc. etc. It is pretty easy to make a list. It was a real learning experience as we were doing it (I even found out a few stories and amazing facts about our family and her that I did not know ... and I thought I knew everything!). Now that she has passed, it is nice to have to give our kids too.

Gassho, Jundo

These are indeed some very good questions and food for thought (or non-thought) on the subject as a whole. I may have given the impression I don't talk much with my Dad...quite the reverse. In fact the topics I mentioned are about the only thing we don't talk about freely and that's why it puzzles me. I grew up without any religion since he walked away from his in high school, but it was often a topic of discussion in our household. He has always danced around the idea of referring to himself as a buddhist, but never did other than once when he had surgery and they asked for a selection of clergy (and as it turned out they got it wrong when he noticed afterwards that his hospital band said "Jewish"). In fact, the emotional life I have comes almost exclusively from my father...my mother is the one who rarely shares emotion or history. I think for my Dad, being a true buddhist would tend to make him consider some things I don't think he wants to face. I will say that much of the last year as I have begun to practice has been very helpful in my relationship with my mother, at least in the respect that I don't get as angry as I did before. That was only causing me pain. Perhaps what you describe above is a good goal of my goalessness and a step towards healing.

[BrianW]

I found it interesting that the testimonial by the Soto practitioner at the end of the chapter really didn’t provide much in the way of a description in of the characteristics of his “climax” or “insight.” It reminded me of something I heard in a Norm Fisher podcast. He was discussing the nature of religious experience in various traditions and noted, somewhat in jest, that the Soto religious experience tends to be “somewhat fuzzy.”

Gassho,
BrianW

[Jundo]

He was discussing the nature of religious experience in various traditions and noted, somewhat in jest, that the Soto religious experience tends to be “somewhat fuzzy.”

Warm and fuzzy?

A stillness ... a subtle and clear taste ... how natural it all seems ...

The 'Soto" fellow in the book did say in the very last line ...

the flower unfolds to the light

[BrianW]

Warm and fuzzy?

I sure feel somewhat fuzzy in my thinking much of the time

The 'Soto" fellow in the book did say in the very last line ...

the flower unfolds to the light

Yes exactly…I can see how within the Soto tradition, poetic language seems best at expressing our experience. Dogen’s poetic language and, many times, contradictory statements really seem right on the mark. A more linear analysis often does not seem adequate. For example, the author’s discussion of emptiness and oneness in “Eight Types of Enlightenment”, while providing some useful information, seems to me to fall a bit short.

Gassho,
BrianW

[Byokan]

From the text:

It should be acknowledged, however, that if Rinzai meditation has it’s pitfalls, so does Soto. Rinzai tends to turn Zen practice into a means to an end, to be interminably goal-oriented. And the end that is emphasized (satori) may be the ecstasy involved in the experience rather than the insight (kensho) which issues from the experience. Soto, on the other hand, may play only in the shallow waters of mental control (joriki) instead of moving more deeply and fully into a realization and expression of one’s Buddha nature. Instead of living more and more out of the immediacy of original enlightenment and allowing that to pervade more and more of one’s life, one may be satisfied to merely enjoy the momentary therapeutic benefits of “sitting quietly, doing nothing,” and to use faith in one’s original nature to rationalize the status quo. Rather than being the highest level of Zen practice (saijojo), the practice of Buddhas, Soto is in danger of reducing itself to the lowest level, bompu zen. If Rinzai can become artificial in it’s method, Soto can become superficial in it’s realization.

Ahh, the momentary therapeutic benefits of sitting quietly, doing nothing. So easy, so relaxing! Ok, the author is doing his best to describe the practices as a scholar, not as one who does the practice. So I’ll give him some slack. His description of the difference between the log jam and the muddly pond is quite good. However, I think there is little danger that any enlightened being would use his enlightenment to “rationalize the status quo”. I think here he is indulging the popular misconception of Buddhists as blissed-out slackers. Lucky for us, I think Jundo and Taigu do emphasize “living more and more out of the immediacy of original enlightenment and allowing that to pervade more and more of one’s life.” If nothing else, this reading has made me more sure than ever that the muddly pond is the place for me.

Like a duck bobbing naturally in water

Gassho
Lisa

[Jundo]

Hi Lisa,

Yes, that is his broad brush. In fact, almost all the Rinzai AND Soto Teachers I know are actually Teaching that there is Attainment and endless attainments and depths along the way, one should never be complacent and Practice never ends (not so long as our hearts are beating anyway).

This is the old debate about whether Soto or Rinzai is about "Sudden" or "Gradual" enlightenment. In fact, almost all good Zen Teachers I know of all flavors will say the each is Both! In Soto too, Realization happens again and again and again Suddenly in each moment and gesture when can see, yet the Path of truly getting such in one's bones is step by step. It is much like saying that, at some point we suddenly realize that we have been on the Buddha Mountain all along ... the bottom and the top and every scene and step along the way, all the Buddha Mountain with no place to get away from it ... yet we continue, step by gradual step, continuing our walk up Buddha Mountain.

Gassho, J

[Byokan]

Hoohah!

[Oukan]

Howdy,

I'd like to continue this special series of "readings that will help in understanding Zen readings" with a bit more of ...

Once-Born, Twice-Born Zen by Conrad Hyers

I agree with those folks who think the "Once-Born Twice-Born" categories are a bit black/white and broad brush. I do think the book helpful, though, in appreciating these contrasting, but complementary flavors of Zen practice. The descriptions are pretty accurate portraits of these two "not-two schools" of approach, I find.

As always, I emphasize that it is not a question of insisting that one way or the other is the "only way" or even "right way".

This week's reading can be downloaded here (PDF) ...

https://sites.google.com/site/jundot...edirects=0&d=1

Gassho, J

Hi Jundo,

The link for the second part 'oncebornteicebornzen' isn't working for me is there another link?

Gassho
Sat2day.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mp]

Hi Jundo,

The link for the second part 'oncebornteicebornzen' isn't working for me is there another link?

Gassho
Sat2day.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hey there Oukan,

I tried it and it worked for me ... give this a try https://sites.google.com/site/jundot...edirects=0&d=1 =)

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[Oukan]

Hey there Oukan,

I tried it and it worked for me ... give this a try https://sites.google.com/site/jundot...edirects=0&d=1 =)

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

Thank you Shingen works just not on tapatalk. Think I'm going to go back to just using the forum. Too complex for me.

Gassho


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