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  1. #1

    Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VI (Karma)

    I APOLOGIZE FOR THE LENGTH OF THE FOLLOWING ... IT MAY TAKE SEVERAL LIFETIMES TO READ!

    Hi Ho,

    It's been a couple of weeks since our last "BIG Questions". But now fate has led us to the next which, though seemingly some of the trickiest, I find not so tricky at all ...

    What about KARMA?

    Mr. D asked ...

    The thing about Karma is this: I don't really see how the Buddhist belief in Karma is compatible with the possibility that the universe is random and unintended. Karma for me means that there are no 'coincidences' and nothing happens just 'by chance'. We find ourselves where we find ourselves and with certain people for a reason. Karmic relationships and patterns are at work, and maybe we even get exactly what we need... As such, if Karma is true then it would be a kind of proof against the idea that the universe is random and unintended. You can't believe in Karma AND consider the possibility that this is all random and unintended. This is to assume of course, that the Buddhist notion of Karma refers to more that mere materialistic determinism or mechanistic cause and effect: a cause yielding an inevitable effect which in turn acts as the cause of another inevitable effect and so on... But as far as I'm aware, this idea is usually supported by those who believe that there is only matter, and nothing else, and I would never have associated Buddhism with that sort of thing. And Karma always seemed to have more to it than that...

    ...

    Buddhism says that Ignorance and delusion bind us to the cycle of birth and death. As such, when one who hasn’t realised his/her true nature and remains in ignorance dies, they are subsequently reborn. But what happens to one who has realised their true nature in life, attained enlightenment , Satori...? What happens to a Buddha when their physical body disintegrates, if they are not reborn and they are egoless?
    In a nutshell, Karma means our volitional actions (which includes words and thoughts) are causes which have effects good and bad. Our lives are (in whole or part ... for there are other, non-Karmic causes too such as natural and environmental factors) the product of past Karmic causes, and our life contains the causes of future effects. Usually, this is coupled with a belief that our Karmic volitional actions in this life will help determine future rebirths.

    But the details of what that all entails, and exactly how the system works, can be rather fuzzy.

    The idea of Karma, and a belief in a rather mechanical system of rebirth (or reincarnation ... not quite the same thing, more about that in a moment) existed in Indian religion long before the time of the Buddha. What is more, it seems highly likely that Guatama Buddha himself believed in a rather mechanical system of rebirth resulting from Karma (Kamma in Pali). There is some small debate about this, because the Buddha's words were passed on as an oral tradition, and not written down for centuries after his death ... and because the Buddha often adapted his teachings to the ears of his listeners, and adapted many Hindu concepts (in order to attract Hindus to his ideas). However, it certainly seems hard to doubt that the Buddha himself taught a very mechanical, detailed system of rebirth ... and that Buddhists continued to believe as much ever since ... much as in the following system (explained by a teacher in a Vietnamese tradition)

    According to Buddhism if a human does not obtain nirvana or enlightenment, as it is known, the person cannot escape the cycle of death and rebirth and are inevitably be reborn into the 6 possible states beyond this our present life, these being in order from the highest to lowest;

    Heaven. In Buddhism there are 37 different levels of heaven where beings experience peace and long lasting happiness without suffering in the heavenly environment.

    Human life. In Buddhism we can be reborn into human life over and over, either wealthy or poor, beautiful or not so, and every state between and both as it it is served up to us. Anything can happen, as is found in human life and society all around us as we are familiar with in the day to day human world in is myriad of possibilities. What we get is a result of our Karma of what we have dragged with us from previous existences and how it manifests in our temporary present lives.

    Asura. A spiritual state of Demi-Gods but not the happy state experienced by the gods in the heavens above this state. The Demi-Gods are consumed with jealousy, because unlike humans, they can clearly see the superior situation of the gods in the heavens above them. They constantly compete and struggle with the gods due to their dissatisfaction with their desires from the others.

    Hungry Ghost. This spiritual realm of those who committed excessive amounts of evil deeds and who are obsessed with finding food and drink which they cannot experience and thus remain unsatisfied and tortured by the experience. They exhaust themselves in the constant fruitless searching.

    Animals. This realm is visible to humans and it is where spirits of humans are reborn if they have killed animals or have committed a lot of other evil acts. Animals do not have the freedom that humans would experience due to being a subject constantly hunted by humans, farmed and used in farming, also as beasts for entertainment.

    Hell. This realm is not visible to humans. It is a place where beings born there experience a constant state of searing pain and the various types of hell realms reads like a variety of horrific torture chambers. Those with a great deal of negative Karma can remain in such places for eons of time.

    http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma5/viewdeath.html


    In later Buddhist philosophy (not only popular belief), the details could become ... well, quite detailed (such as in these descriptions of Buddhist 'Hells'!

    * Arbuda – the "blister" Naraka. This is a dark, frozen plain surrounded by icy mountains and continually swept by blizzards. Inhabitants of this world arise fully grown and abide life-long naked and alone, while the cold raises blisters upon their bodies. The length of life in this Naraka is said to be the time it would take to empty a barrel of sesame seed if one only took out a single seed every hundred years.

    * Nirarbuda – the "burst blister" Naraka. This Naraka is even colder than the one above, and here the blisters burst open, leaving the beings' bodies covered with frozen blood and pus.

    * Sa?gh?ta – the "crushing" Naraka. This Naraka is also upon a ground of hot iron, but is surrounded by huge masses of rock that smash together and crush the beings to a bloody jelly. When the rocks move apart again, life is restored to the being and the process starts again. Life in this Naraka is 10,368*1010 years long.

    * Raurava – the "screaming" Naraka. Here beings run here and there looking for refuge from the burning ground. When they find an apparent shelter, they are locked inside it as it blazes around them, while they scream inside. Life in this Naraka is 82,944*1010 years long.


    The reason that this is said to be a system of "rebirth", and not "reincarnation", is based primarily on the very fine distinction that the Buddha denied an eternal "self" or "soul" that would pass on from life to life. Buddhist philosophers have struggled for generations, often bending over backwards, thus to explain how there can be a "you" which is reborn when there is no "you" ...

    Here are a couple of modern attempts, one from the London Buddhist Vihara ...

    The non-existence of a permanent soul or spirit that reincarnates from one life to another is fundamental to the Buddha’s teachings. A permanent soul cannot exist in the ever-changing, interdependent process of mind and matter which constitutes a living being. However, the momentum of accumulated kamma results in a new existence. The individual so born is neither the same nor different from the previous being. Buddhism, therefore, describes this process as ‘rebecoming’ or ‘rebirth’ in preference to reincarnation which implies a resurrection of the same entity. It is the force of one’s accumulated kamma which drives life onward from one existence to another. Only an enlightened being (arahant) creates no more kamma.
    http://www.londonbuddhistvihara.org/...a/qa_kamma.htm


    The modern Theravada scholar Walpola Rahulan, in his book What the Buddha Taught (1959), asked,

    "If we can understand that in this life we can continue without a permanent, unchanging substance like Self or Soul, why can't we understand that those forces themselves can continue without a Self or Soul behind them after the non-functioning of the body?

    "When this physical body is no more capable of functioning, energies do not die with it, but continue to take some other shape or form, which we call another life. ... Physical and mental energies which constitute the so-called being have within themselves the power to take a new form, and grow gradually and gather force to the full."


    Ideas of Karmic Rebirth have been just as present throughout the history of Ch'an/Zen Buddhism as well. It varied from teacher to teacher, but there is no reason to believe that Zen Buddhists of old believed less in Karmic Rebirth than other Buddhists. HOWEVER, the emphasis in Zen Buddhism on "living in this life, in the present moment" quickly began to make the question less important to Zen Practitioners. Be a good human being here and now, seek to do no harm now in this life ... and what happens after this life will take care of itself. As well, the pivot point of "birth and death" in right this moment, where birth and death are ever occurring ... and the place of realization and release from "birth and death" is right this moment too, right in this life now.

    Based thereon, many modern teachers (me included ... and may I burn in a hot Buddhist hell if wrong) do not find the question so important or central to Buddhist Practice.

    Now, don't get me wrong: I believe that our actions have effects, and I believe that we create "heavens" and "hells". I see people create "hells" within themselves all the time, and for those around them, by their acts of greed, anger and ignorance. .I see people who live in this world as "Hungry Ghosts", never satisfied. I also believe that we are reborn moment by moment by moment, so in that way ... we are constantly reborn, always changing (the "Jundo" who began writing this essay is not the same "Jundo" who will finish it). Futhermore, I believe that our actions will continue to have effects in this world long after this body is in its grave ... like ripples in a stream that will continue on endlessly.

    But what about those future lives, heavens and hells? Will I be reborn as an Asura or a cocker spaniel?

    My attitude, and that of many other Buddhist teachers, is that ...

    If there are future lives, heavens and hells ... live this life here and now, seek not to do harm, seek not to build "heavens" and "hells" in this world ... let what happens after "death" take care of itself.

    And if there are no future lives, no heavens or hells ... live this life here and now, seek not to do harm, seek not to build "heavens" and "hells" in this world ... let what happens after "death" take care of itself.


    Thus I do not much care if, in the next life, that "gentle way, avoiding harm" will buy me a ticket to heaven and keep me out of hell ... but I know for a fact that it will go far to do so in this life, today, where I see people create all manner of "heavens and hells" for themselves and those around them by their harmful words, thoughts and acts in this life.

    And if there is a "heaven and hell" in the next life, or other effects of Karma now ... well, my actions now have effects then too, and might be the ticket to heaven or good rebirth.

    In other words, whatever the case ... today, now ... live in a gentle way, avoiding harm to self and others (not two, by the way) ... seeking to avoid harm now and in the future too.

    In closing, a couple of (more like 5) final notes ...

    Buddhists all through history, including Guatama himself, always spoke of our escape from the cycle of birth and death, heaven and hells ... and that largely involves emptiness, and tasting a realm beyond all such states. So, in that way, the Buddha himself implied and often directly said that "Karma" and "Rebirth" only exist so long as you see the world that way, and they each vanish when you pierce through them (for example, this from the Nibbana Sutta)

    There is that dimension where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished, unevolving, without support (mental object). This, just this, is the end of stress.
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit...8.01.than.html


    Remember too that being "reborn" was never seen as a positive thing in Buddhism (despite how modern practitioners often want to "come back"), but was seen as something to be escaped!

    Second, even in the most mechanical of mechanical views of Karma, what is truly important is (not past causes) but our harmful and beneficial actions here and now, in this present life. We are not prisoners of Karma, but have great freedom in this moment to make our lives and the future. So, again, what is vital is the here and now.

    Third, on the question of why "bad things happen to good people" and such ... one Buddhist view has always been "because of their 'bad' past Karma". For example, this explanation of why so many folks died in the great Tsunami a few years ago ...

    To Ananda Guruge, former Sri Lankan ambassador to the United States who teaches at the Buddhist-affiliated University of the West in Rosemead, the Buddhist doctrine of karmic law, not random chance, determines who lives and dies in any disaster. The region suffered collective bad karma, he says, perhaps prompted by oppression, unjust war or other negative actions that invited the calamity.

    In Sri Lanka and Thailand, both majority Buddhist countries hit by the tsunami, people tend to believe that those who perished were paying the price of accumulated demerits in this life or past ones, Guruge said, while the survivors were reaping rewards.

    “Buddhist doctrine makes people responsible for their own fate,” said Guruge, whose own family in Sri Lanka largely survived. ...

    But he said such doctrines of cause and effect provide solace by empowering people to take corrective action. By doing good deeds, he said, people can improve their own futures and transfer their merits to deceased loved ones to help bring them a better rebirth.
    http://articles.latimes.com/2005/jan...al/me-beliefs8


    However, another Buddhist view is that there is a perspective by which we can drop all thought of birth, death, Tsunami and victims, suffering and such. By that view, there are no "bad things" to happen to "good people" ... and no "people, for all is empty! This is a view that I often teach when asked about these questions.

    Fourth, even if the Buddha did have an incomplete, or even dead wrong, view on "birth and death" ... no harm to my Buddhist Practice. For me, Guatama Buddha was much like the Wright Brothers in a glider at Kitty Hawk, while now we can board a Boeing 777. I even say that maybe, just maybe, the Buddha was not infallible on every darn thing and, while he was 90% right in his proposals, he also had some klunkers and narrow ideas here and there (as fits a man who lived in a traditional, myth based society some 2500 years ago in ancient India). No matter, as that 90% he taught was so wondrous that I happily bow to him in gratitude.

    Fifth...

    What happens when we die? Some say that death is an illusion. How so? ... Why is it said that Satori destroys the fear of death?
    Yes, I see that death is an illusion anyway. So, the whole question is moot from that perspective. We'll talk about this more in our next edition of ...

    Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions !


    Gassho, J
    Last edited by Jundo; 05-08-2014 at 03:53 AM.

  2. #2
    Hi Jundo

    Many thanks for posting this as part of our study of case 8 in the Book of Equanimity. This is a very useful teaching and i found Stephanie's description of the fox koan very helpful.

    I have thought about the issue of karma and like you i tend to see the six realms as existing very much in our own minds. By this i mean our own actions send us to hell, animal or asura realms by our wrong or right thinking depending on the realm. I remain open to the fact that rebirth actually happens, that some of our karma moves on to others lives in the future but i don't have a fixed view on how that happens. I do find it interesting to note that many of the great Buddhist teachers seemed to have believed in karma and rebirth and to my eye they were right on everything else so why not this subject? This makes me keep an open mind.

    Thanks again for your teachings.

    Gassho

    Thane

  3. #3
    Mp
    Guest
    Wonderful teaching Jundo ... I have a thangka of the Six Realms of Samsara hanging by my door, it is a great reminder.

    Gassho
    Michael

  4. #4
    An interesting essay from Western born Theravada priest Shravasti Dhammika points out that, even in the old Suttas, the historical Buddha said very little on the mechanics of rebirth ... and much was added later.

    I personally feel that Buddha was a man of his times, and believed much that the surrounding society believed.

    --------------------


    The Buddha On Rebirth



    The first Buddhists regarded life (jiva) as a process of consciousness moving through a succession of bodies, death being only a momentary event to this process. This phenomena is sometimes called `moving from womb to womb' (Sn.278) or more precisely, rebirth (punabbhava, D.II,15). Later Buddhist thinkers explained rebirth in complex and minute detail - death-proximate kamma (marana samma kamma), last thought moment (cuti citta), relinking (patisandhi), the underlying stream of existence (bhavanga sota), etc. Interestingly, none of this is mentioned in the Sutta Pitaka, much of it is not even to be found in the Abhidhamma Pitaka. It is the product of speculation dating from the early centuries CE onward. This is not to say that such concepts are valueless, but it is important to distinguish between early, late and very late Dhamma concepts.

    The Buddha mentions rebirth often enough but what does he say about the actual process of rebirth? The answer is `Not very much'. The Buddha considered death to have taken place when bodily, verbal and mental activities stop, when vitality (ayu) and heat (usma) cease, and when consciousness disengages from the body so that it becomes suspended (acetana, M.I,296). The consciousness `moves upwards' (uddhagami) and then `descends' (avakkanti) into the womb, i.e. the mothers newly fertilized egg (D.III,103; S.V,370), finding `a resting place' (patiññthà) there (D.II,63). I assume that these `up' `down' description are only metaphorical.

    Some Buddhist schools teach that after death, consciousness hovers in an in-between state (antarabhava) for a certain period before being reborn. Others, such as the Theravadins, assert that rebirth takes place within moments of consciousness disengaging from the body. The Buddha suggests that there is an interval between death and rebirth. He spoke of the situation `when one has laid down the body (i.e. died) but has not yet been reborn' (S.IV,400). On several other occasions he said that for one who has attained Nirvana there is `no here, no there, no in-between'(S.IV,73), presumably referring to this life, the next life, and the in-between state. He even said that in certain circumstances someone might attain Nirvana while in this in-between state. He called the individual who achieved this `a Nirvanaized in-between type' (antaraparinibbayi, S.V,69).

    When the consciousness is in transition between one life and the next it is referred to as gandhabba, and the Buddha said that this gandhabba has to be present for conception to take place (M.I,265). For most people the whole process between death and actually being born again is unconscious (asampajana), although a few spiritually evolved individuals can remain fully aware during the transition (D.III,103). The question of exactly which point the consciousness finds `a resting place' in the fertilized egg or fetus so that it can be considered a new being, is nowhere addressed in the Tipitaka. Whether or not it is mentioned in any later Buddhist literature I do not know. Can anyone help? This question is important because it has a bearing on the abortion debate. Certainly, the earliest Buddhists considered abortion to be wrong (D.I,11; Ja.V,269).

    http://sdhammika.blogspot.jp/2013/03...n-rebirth.html
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  5. #5
    Some thoughts off topic, but related to the above.

    Thoughts on Time:
    Living in the moment, from moment to moment... Time is just a progression of moments.
    In maths, using integral calculus, a curve can be split into infinitesimally small slithers in order to see how something changes over time... from slither to slither.
    An hour is split into minutes. minutes are split into seconds, seconds are further subdivided until we reach the Planck time unit and beyond that is... an instant. Which according to the Wikipedia article on time is 'no time at all'.
    Therefore, what I read above in "21. contradictions in human freedom" quoted by Jundo makes sense. I have had an experience of being in a moment, moving from moment to moment. It may well have been maya but it seemed pretty real when it happened!

    On Energy and Matter:
    On a very simplistic level, I believe that matter is energy, energy can not be created nor destroyed (As Shokai says above), and when matter ceases to be what it is, it is transformed into another matter and/or energy. For example, if I burn a rag it turns into soot and heat. For me, on this simplistic level, matter is energy, energy is matter and matter and energy can exist at the same time. Perhaps matter is just a very large concentration of energy. That is why it is dense and heavy?

    So, coming onto birth and rebirth:
    If a human is a concentration of matter and energy, when it ceases to be 'alive' it rots or it is burned. It transforms into a different type of matter and/or a different kind of energy (for energy and matter are not separate). The 'energy' which makes up all things in the cosmos 'dies' with the passing of the human and is 'reborn' as the heat from the crematorium chimney... and where does that heat go? Who knows, perhaps it makes a molecule of air jiggle a bit and that turns into a wind to blow across the face of the Earth until it passes that 'energy' onto something else.

    Nihilistic thoughts:
    And if we are all made from matter and energy and matter and energy are one; and the flowers and the trees and the houses and the planets and the sun are all too; and if I can burn a rag and it turns to soot and heat; perhaps we are all dust waiting to happen?
    I formed this nihilistic view a few years ago when I was trying to figure out who 'I' was and why 'I' was here. Then I postulated that I was a thing yet a no-thing, I was only a human because I had called myself one and we (as a human race) had decided that's what we were, I was in fact no different from the pretty flower or the dried up dog turd in the flowerbed, we were all made of the same stuff, and we would all end up as dust at some point. Every 'thing' in the cosmos is the cosmos and not separate from it and when 'I' die my 'stuff' (which is made of energy) will be reborn as something else...

    Applying this to life:
    So, taking what Khalil Bodhi said (above), "I hope I'm not being too forward when I ask this but if there is no rebirth no re-becoming, then why not just wait for death or even hasten its arrival". For me, once we realise that we are just dust waiting to happen, living in an instant from moment to moment and 'THATS IT', we can stop postulating, and get on with living our lives and being happy.

    As for Karma, I think its all been said above.

    Gassho
    Richard

  6. #6
    I Think I'll just keep on row row rowing my boat the best I can.


  7. #7


    Gassho
    Lisa
    sat today

  8. #8
    Cyd
    Guest
    Thank you JUndo
    some what clear. Though Karma to me
    is still a Complicated Topic

    Gassho
    Cyd
    Sat2day

  9. #9
    Member Seishin's Avatar
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    La Croix-Avranchin, Basse Normandie, France
    Just stumbled across this whilst working through the Buddha Basics series. Yet to read all the responses to the op but expect to find them insightful. Deep bows Jundo for your clarity and eloquence on this subject, I have learned much from this thread.
    Last edited by Seishin; 01-21-2017 at 11:22 AM.


    Seishin

    Sei - Meticulous
    Shin - Heart

  10. #10
    I, too, just worked through the Buddha Basics talks, and this point really reassured me. My familiarity is more with Theravada Buddhism, and I have to say that the mechanics of a literal rebirth and all the variations on hell for specific sins were things I really struggled to accept about Buddhism. It was, in truth, my only remaining misgiving about jukai. Can I fully commit to a path that in this one regard I so wholeheartedly disbelieve?

    Thank you for your great wisdom, Jundo. It has put both mind and heart (not two) at ease. I appreciate your points especially that the Buddha's views on rebirth, hell, etc. were shaped by the society he lived in--just as mine are, too. This does not mean he was wrong about any of it. But his being right about so many other things also doesn't guarantee he was right in this, too. I deeply appreciate your metaphorical reading of "hungry ghosts" and types of heaven, hell, and rebirth as well.

    This, my modern mind can embrace and learn from. Thank you.
    Deep gassho,
    M.C.
    SatTody

  11. #11
    Thank you Jundo
    Gassho
    Dan
    Sat2day

  12. #12
    Thank you fort the teaching, Jundo.


    Gassho
    Teiro

    Sat
    Teiro

  13. #13
    I struggle with Karma when it comes to extreme evil. Nazizs, such as Mengele managed to have a successful life, believing they are bringing good to (Arian) humanity and justice for their atrocities was not served as many managed to escape to South America and lead rest of their life's in peace. Slave traders to this day have monuments erected and their descendants profit from huge fortunes that were build on unimaginable suffering. And although you may say that they also had Dukka, it is not even close to the eveil they've caused. The idea of them being reborn as branded animal slaves in industrial farms that resemble concentration camps is tempting, but I have to much compassion for animals to wish the suffering upon anyone. I feel like there's a fundamental error in IT ALL. "God is Love". But I can't imagine that the true love would allow for evil and suffering. Yet there can't be light without darkness. Is our Bodhisattva way deemed for failure? If we manage to "achieve" enlightenment and free all siented beings from suffering what will be left?
    Gassho
    Sat

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Ania View Post
    I struggle with Karma when it comes to extreme evil. Nazizs, such as Mengele managed to have a successful life, believing they are bringing good to (Arian) humanity and justice for their atrocities was not served as many managed to escape to South America and lead rest of their life's in peace. Slave traders to this day have monuments erected and their descendants profit from huge fortunes that were build on unimaginable suffering. And although you may say that they also had Dukka, it is not even close to the eveil they've caused. The idea of them being reborn as branded animal slaves in industrial farms that resemble concentration camps is tempting, but I have to much compassion for animals to wish the suffering upon anyone. I feel like there's a fundamental error in IT ALL. "God is Love". But I can't imagine that the true love would allow for evil and suffering. Yet there can't be light without darkness. Is our Bodhisattva way deemed for failure? If we manage to "achieve" enlightenment and free all siented beings from suffering what will be left?
    Gassho
    Sat
    Allow me to say I feel you’re equating karmic consequences to appropriate punishment for evil acts. Karmic consequences are impossible to predict. And trying to deem them as good or bad can only be done in relation to subjects experiencing those consequences.. If something bad happens to someone who’s done bad, you as a witness of that will deem it as a good consequence or punishment, but for the person suffering it, their family and close ones, maybe not so much. So which adjective is the correct one? The one you apply or the one they apply?
    On the other hand, we can’t possibly understand the emotional suffering others experience regardless of what we can see or observe. You say Mengele had a successful life despite atrocities he committed. How do you know? How do you measure success? Do you know whether someone is suffering from guilt, remorse, whether their personal relationships are strained, or whether they spend their nights sweating from constant nightmares? I think we expect justice or retribution for sins to present themselves in a way we deem acceptable or correct and that only causes us to feel discouraged, hurt, angry, frustrated etc ..

    The Bodhisattva way is the way of compassion. That can never fail, because the compassion we show does not depend on what we might get in return for it. And when there’s no suffering left to end, there’ll be plenty good to be experienced.


    SatToday lah
    Bion
    -------------------------
    When you put Buddha’s activity into practice, only then are you a buddha. When you act like a fool, then you’re a fool. - Sawaki Roshi

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Ania View Post
    I struggle with Karma when it comes to extreme evil. Nazizs, such as Mengele managed to have a successful life, believing they are bringing good to (Arian) humanity and justice for their atrocities was not served as many managed to escape to South America and lead rest of their life's in peace. Slave traders to this day have monuments erected and their descendants profit from huge fortunes that were build on unimaginable suffering. And although you may say that they also had Dukka, it is not even close to the eveil they've caused. The idea of them being reborn as branded animal slaves in industrial farms that resemble concentration camps is tempting, but I have to much compassion for animals to wish the suffering upon anyone. I feel like there's a fundamental error in IT ALL. "God is Love". But I can't imagine that the true love would allow for evil and suffering. Yet there can't be light without darkness. Is our Bodhisattva way deemed for failure? If we manage to "achieve" enlightenment and free all siented beings from suffering what will be left?
    Gassho
    Sat
    Even in such cases, Buddhists try to say that there are no "bad people," and only people who are themselves ill within, filled with the poisons of excess desire, anger and violence, division, discrimination and other divided thinking in ignorance which causes them to act badly, and, in that sense, all are victims. I don't know if Mengele and the slave traders paid a price in some future lives, but, even if someone like Dr. Mengele had an objectively "good" life because of material gains, he still suffered in some ways within, I am sure, by the anger and violence which ate at him within, the empty space that is a hell of its own (I think that even a sociopath who cannot feel compassion and empathy for others must still feel some great deprivation or suffering because of that lack).

    What is more, I know that there is a view of this life beyond even violence, death, war, in which all is washed away in wholeness, peace and stillness in the realm of the Absolute, and that war, torture and the like are but the doings of Samsara, this broken, beautiful yet often ugly world in which we live, an Illumination which shines right at the heart of all earthly dark and light.

    I think that Zen Buddhists came up with a way to see past the ugliness, war and violence even as we continue to live in a world of sometime ugliness, war and violence ... seeing past it all, even while up to our necks in the mud, while also doing what we can to turn war to peace and create goodness and beauty where we can.

    Gassho, J

    STLah

    (sorry, a little more than three lines)
    Last edited by Jundo; 08-18-2020 at 11:06 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  16. #16
    Way back in the Original Post on this topic, we say
    Karma means our volitional actions ... are causes which have effects good and bad. Our lives are ... the product of past Karmic causes, and our life contains the causes of future effects
    I have two thoughts/questions on this:

    1. By "effects" do we mean the actual creation of a phenomena or do we mean a change in our PERCEPTION of a phenomena? For example, do we mean that my past "bad" karma will cause an actual even to happen which will have negative consequences for me? Or, do we mean that I will PERCEIVE a future event in such a way as to have negative consequences for me? The difference is the seemingly telepathic Jedi-like ability to physically alter reality vs. the internal mental ability to change the way I perceive things.

    2. If Karma causes the future, what about free will? Without free will, why bother trying to change anything if it is all pre-determined? Isn't it more reasonable to think that karma creates a "tendency" for me to experience things in a certain way, and that that tendency can be affected by my learning?

    Gassho

    Zenkon

    sat/lah

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Zenkon View Post

    1. By "effects" do we mean the actual creation of a phenomena or do we mean a change in our PERCEPTION of a phenomena? For example, do we mean that my past "bad" karma will cause an actual even to happen which will have negative consequences for me? Or, do we mean that I will PERCEIVE a future event in such a way as to have negative consequences for me? The difference is the seemingly telepathic Jedi-like ability to physically alter reality vs. the internal mental ability to change the way I perceive things.
    I do not believe that the ancients made such distinctions. The teaching was that very concrete good and bad events would occur to one, in this or in later post-death lives, due to ones good and bad actions in this or prior lives.

    2. If Karma causes the future, what about free will? Without free will, why bother trying to change anything if it is all pre-determined? Isn't it more reasonable to think that karma creates a "tendency" for me to experience things in a certain way, and that that tendency can be affected by my learning?
    Free will still holds, and Karmic effects can be changed or counter-balanced in traditional belief. Karma sets the stage, but does not have the final word on the future.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

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