News/Social media as intoxicants

[Myojin]

Precept 11, refraining from intoxication, seems to be a precept around which there is some ambiguity. It is quite well known that practitioners in Japan often indulge in alcohol, Tesshu Yamaoka was famous for it, and even at a Sesshin I attended recently there was a quiet beer on the final night, so I've taken to interpreting the precept as not getting hammered, or allowing drugs or alcohol to get in the way of life.

I recently however came across the idea of the news and social media as intoxicants (The Japanese literally specifies alcohol, but I think we can be flexible), and I can say that for myself, the news at least has become something that I can be a little obsessive about. Given the various horrible things going on in the world it's difficult to look away, even while I realise that I can't do anything about most of it, yet I find myself drawn to want to know what's going on half way across the world.

Though I'm not currently a precept holder, I intend to become one, and try to hold them in my own way, and given that the aim of zen practice is to be recollected, and my tendency to watch the news multiple times a day, I'm thinking that this might be a good targe for practicing the precept of refraining from intoxication.

I'd be happy to hear the thoughts of others on this topic, I suspect it's something many of us struggle with.

Sattday

Dan

[Heath Thompson]

Back in 2008, I took precepts with Thich Nhat Hanh, a Vietnamese Zen teacher. He looked at what you are discussing as meaning that we should be mindful of what we consume, which includes TV, movies, adverts, radio, conversations, and so on. It goes into the mind and the body and how we react to it is a continuation of its effect that may flow beyond us.

So, personally, I think you are sensing things correctly, however, I'm sure you will get better answers from more experienced practitioners and teachers of this Zendo.

[Jundo]

Precept 11, refraining from intoxication, seems to be a precept around which there is some ambiguity. It is quite well known that practitioners in Japan often indulge in alcohol, Tesshu Yamaoka was famous for it, and even at a Sesshin I attended recently there was a quiet beer on the final night, so I've taken to interpreting the precept as not getting hammered, or allowing drugs or alcohol to get in the way of life.

I recently however came across the idea of the news and social media as intoxicants (The Japanese literally specifies alcohol, but I think we can be flexible), and I can say that for myself, the news at least has become something that I can be a little obsessive about. Given the various horrible things going on in the world it's difficult to look away, even while I realise that I can't do anything about most of it, yet I find myself drawn to want to know what's going on half way across the world.

Though I'm not currently a precept holder, I intend to become one, and try to hold them in my own way, and given that the aim of zen practice is to be recollected, and my tendency to watch the news multiple times a day, I'm thinking that this might be a good targe for practicing the precept of refraining from intoxication.

I'd be happy to hear the thoughts of others on this topic, I suspect it's something many of us struggle with.

Sattday

Dan

All things in moderation, and with equanimity even as our hearts are moved. One can be moved, concerned for the state of the world, yet ALSO know a profound, boundless peace and silence within. See, do not shut your eyes, but neither cling and be attached.

In fact, it is important to develop the ability to see the news and events of the world as lessons in the Buddhist Teachings, our greed, anger and ignorance.

What is more, SEE THROUGH the news, and all of Samsara, to a way beyond war, violence, greed, division, frictions, lack.

We do not shut our eyes in Zazen and run away from the world, neither do we become tangled in it.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLENTaHAND

[Bion]

Probably one of the biggest sources of anger and bitterness these days is the news and social media. It’s a never ending fuel provider for the worst in us, and algorithms managing what we see and hear makes things even worse. I look at the precepts for guidance and I fully trust that sticking to them will have good results, so I try to stick to a stricter interpretation of them, and that means, I don’t drink, would never smoke or take drugs and protect myself from all the negativity in the news and social media by choosing wisely who to befriend, what to look at and what to interact with. That takes on many forms, but it works for me.

SORRY FOR RUNNING LONG

Sat

[Chikyou]

I've been thinking about this myself, and I agree. Social media is definitely my main intoxicant ("I'm bored, time to mindlessly scroll") so I'm committing to being mindful of what, and how, I consume things online.

Gassho,
SatLah
Kelly

[Onki]

Years ago I was obsessed with watching the news. Every evening there I was sitting in my recliner staring at the tv. Yet I noticed something within me. Each evening after watching the news I felt overwhelmed. Overwhelmed with what I had been shown; fires raging in Alberta, a school shooting in the United States, poverty, homelessness, violence, war. It was endless. My heart ached for everything that was happening. I am a sensitive guy; things stick with me and I have my heart on my sleeve. I feel deeply. Watching the news was having a negative effect on me. I had to change something yet I didn’t want the worries of the world to completely disappear. I still wanted to know what was going on; just in more manageable bits. So I stopped watching the news. I took a much needed social media break (which I still do from time to time) as well. It was a good thing, not only for my mental health but for my life as well. Nowadays, I don’t watch the news anymore. If there is something that I need to know I will find out a different way.

Gasshō,

On

Sat today

[Onki]

Probably one of the biggest sources of anger and bitterness these days is the news and social media. It’s a never ending fuel provider for the worst in us, and algorithms managing what we see and hear makes things even worse. I look at the precepts for guidance and I fully trust that sticking to them will have good results, so I try to stick to a stricter interpretation of them, and that means, I don’t drink, would never smoke or take drugs and protect myself from all the negativity in the news and social media by choosing wisely who to befriend, what to look at and what to interact with. That takes on many forms, but it works for me.

Sat

Great points, Bion!

On

Sat today

[Meian]

I've mostly eliminated social media (except for MOD page and YouTube, which I am responsible for) for the time being, as I experience most social media to be negative and poisonous.

Other things, when I notice that I am hyper-focused or having anxious thoughts about them, I purposely step back and evaluate my involvement.

It took me a long time (years) to understand the addictive nature of various activities, and I'm still learning about this also - in the light of the Precepts.

Gassho2 stlh

[Seiko]

Precept 11, refraining from intoxication, seems to be a precept around which there is some ambiguity.

Though I'm not currently a precept holder, I intend to become one, and try to hold them in my own way

Hi Dan,

Yes we interpret and understand precepts as individuals, hold them, break them and keep them in our own way. We are each, our own greatest critic.

A special ceremony to signify taking precepts is lovely and meaningful. Precepts can also be taken to heart silently, alone, without any witnesses.

News is edited and presented as entertainment. We never know what the producers of news decide not to tell. I wouldn't isolate myself from news output entirely, but it doesn't consume me.

Gasshō
Seiko
Stlah

[Bion]

Hi Dan,

A special ceremony to signify taking precepts is lovely and meaningful. Precepts can also be taken to heart silently, alone, without any witnesses.

Gasshō
Seiko
Stlah

Just from a personal standpoint, I’d add ‘CRUCIALLY IMPORTANT’ to that description. Properly receiving the Precepts from a Precept Master is as Master Dogen said “authentically transmitted.” More so, he also insists that “at the beginning of entering the Dharma there is inevitably the receiving of the precepts. Without receiving the precepts we are never the disciples of the buddhas and never the descendants of the ancestral masters”. He actually mentions that “the observance in which ‘we should receive the bodhisattva precepts’ is not accomplished by negligent and lazy people.”

Reading that, just inevitably makes me feel grateful and privileged that I was able to make prostrations and ask to receive the Precepts, knowing I took a firm first step in the right direction!

SORRY FOR RUNNING LONG AGAIN

Sat Today lah

[Nengei]

I have been thinking on this since you first posted, Dan, and I am in agreement that social media can be intoxicating, and certainly lead to violations of the Precepts and breaking away from the Eightfold Path. Like Kelly and others, I have found myself falling into the scroll hole on any number of occasions, and staying in it even when it is keeping me from doing things I actually need to do, and making me late for things needlessly. Social media really are not a great source of information, and as Bion noted, swimming in that ocean is a source of bitterness and anger. Social media, from my point of view, fuel greed, anger, and ignorance. I would have a hard time saying that time spent on social media is right thought, right speech, or right action. If I post, I try to do so in such a way that it brings betterment to others. But the hard part is then walking away.

There can be great worth in some of what is on social media. But if you build a jewelry store in the alley behind the town bars, I wonder who will find your products? It would be wonderful if we could control what pops up in our social media feeds, but as we have all come to find, what you don't want is constantly pushed at you, no matter how much you try to make it otherwise. Full kudos to those who are able to surf those waves of garbage, and come away odor-free. For myself, I find that the more time I spend on social media, the worse I feel. It may do good for some, but it doesn't really do good for me. Far, far better, if I have so little to do, to pick up a book, call a friend or family member I have not spoken to in some time, write a letter, weed the garden, or just go to my mat and sit.

Gassho,
Nengei
Sat today. LAH.

[Tokan]

Just from a personal standpoint, I’d add ‘CRUCIALLY IMPORTANT’ to that description. Properly receiving the Precepts from a Precept Master is as Master Dogen said “authentically transmitted.” More so, he also insists that “at the beginning of entering the Dharma there is inevitably the receiving of the precepts. Without receiving the precepts we are never the disciples of the buddhas and never the descendants of the ancestral masters”. He actually mentions that “the observance in which ‘we should receive the bodhisattva precepts’ is not accomplished by negligent and lazy people.”

I guess this is one of the key differences between a humanist and a Buddhist (reducing the distinction a bit of course). I believe you can live by the precepts from reading a book, but as Bion points out, there is something quite different about "receiving" the precepts that must be experienced to fully understand, which I think is for you to personally grasp when you receive the precepts.

Whether I partake of the media or social media is neither here nor there is some ways, the world will carry on with its disputes, the never-ending re-posting of bad news will continue, whether I take part is up to me, even if that is simply reading the story, and then, at some point, I will die, and all of the above will continue without me. Depressed yet?!?! I doubt any of us can change the narrative on facebook or Al Jazeera, CNN, or Fox Media, the BBC or ABC - BUT we can change the narrative within ourselves, that's a big enough challenge for me and takes up much of my day (LOL) so if I can stay on top of that, maybe I can positively influence others.

Gassho, Tokan

satlah

[Jundo]

Hi Guys,

I would like to remind folks of the "The Sacred Sentences" request, for when the forum and many of us (me too) get too chatty and wordy, as it is just good practice in "less is more."

A Request to Sangha Members: "Three Sacred Sentences" Practice & No AI Posts

In Zen, it is important to untangle from our complex thoughts, simplify views and hold opinions lightly. As one practice in doing so, I am requesting that our members try to limit their Forum comments to about, more or less, three (3) well-chosen and heartfelt sentences. The purpose is to cause people to consider what they really need to say, to keep it short, simplify and to honor the dropping of opinions and extra ideas.

That said, the request is not a "rule" or set in stone in any way [and there are some nice exceptions]:

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...ce-No-AI-Posts

On the topic at hand, while this is more a citizen's opinion than a "Buddhist opinion," I hope everyone will stay informed of news and developments in society from REPUTABLE sources (we still have ethical and dedicated news reporters and respected news, university and other institutions out there, rather than Q-anon or crazy rumors on facebook or twitter), even while managing to view with a "Buddhist eye," the greed, anger and ignorance in the news you see while not becoming overly entangled.

Simply, we need smart, caring citizens to stay involved.

Gassho, J

stlah

[Bion]

Hi Guys,

I would like to remind folks of the "The Sacred Sentences" request, for when the forum and many of us (me too) get too chatty and wordy, as it is just good practice in "less is more."
stlah

THANK YOU FOR THAT REMINDER!

Sat

[Seiko]

I would like to remind folks of the "The Sacred Sentences" request, for when the forum and many of us (me too) get too chatty and wordy, as it is just good practice in "less is more."

Gasshō
Seiko
stlah

[Myojin]

Hi Guys,

I would like to remind folks of the "The Sacred Sentences" request, for when the forum and many of us (me too) get too chatty and wordy, as it is just good practice in "less is more."



On the topic at hand, while this is more a citizen's opinion than a "Buddhist opinion," I hope everyone will stay informed of news and developments in society from REPUTABLE sources (we still have ethical and dedicated news reporters and respected news, university and other institutions out there, rather than Q-anon or crazy rumors on facebook or twitter), even while managing to view with a "Buddhist eye," the greed, anger and ignorance in the news you see while not becoming overly entangled.

Simply, we need smart, caring citizens to stay involved.

Gassho, J

stlah

You raise a good point, quality of intake of our media is as important as our diets, to say nothing of our choice of intoxicants. In computer science they call it GIGO (garbage in, garbage out), but one thing that is increasingly being muddied is what constitutes good intellectual nutrition.

Thanks to all who have commented thus far, there are some interesting and insightful thoughts coming from this, I guss it's something we can all relate to to a greater or lesser extent.

Further ruminations on the topic; something that comes back to me time and again is the idea that the thoughts that we actively cultivate, will propagate. That is to say not only the media induced thought patterns that we have to deal with, but other forms of mental activity, some based on consumption, or on other behaviour. In many cases, not only can our behaviours harm ourselves, but can also exacerbate real world harms, such as drug use inadvertently funding criminal networks that do a lot worse things than just move a bit of weed about, I don't want to be part of such things, even as a passive consumer.

Anyway, as is often the case, these precepts get deeper the more I think about them.

Sattday

Dan

[paulashby]

Try a little test to discern the level of manipulation on the web.
Click three Fox news links and watch how all the next pop ups are
right wing extremist articles. Then click three Huffington post links
and observe a flood of left wing news bits to grab your consciousness.
Now realize we are all being played. Exercise discernment about the
sources that will be sent your way.
The whole point of appealing click options is to promote intoxication with
our perspectives of choice. Mine lean liberal so I will often click an opposite
viewpoint to try to grasp why some want to make America like Florida
minus the great beaches and Miami art deco.
Daily zazen can help you dump some of the social media buzz we absorb.

Gassho, peace,Paul sat lah

[Myojin]

Try a little test to discern the level of manipulation on the web.
Click three Fox news links and watch how all the next pop ups are
right wing extremist articles. Then click three Huffington post links
and observe a flood of left wing news bits to grab your consciousness.
Now realize we are all being played. Exercise discernment about the
sources that will be sent your way.
The whole point of appealing click options is to promote intoxication with
our perspectives of choice. Mine lean liberal so I will often click an opposite
viewpoint to try to grasp why some want to make America like Florida
minus the great beaches and Miami art deco.
Daily zazen can help you dump some of the social media buzz we absorb.

Gassho, peace,Paul sat lah

You only have to spend five minutes scanning through Youtube to see that, it's the easiset thing to to go down a rabbit hole, the quality of which varies wildly, and the problem is most of it adheres to the rules of confirmation bias, you see more of what you click on.

For this reason I'm mainly seeing audiobooks by Terry Pratchett at the moment, but it's only a few clicks away from being much much worse.

Sattday

Dan

[Gareth]

One thing is that we are still at least somewhat in charge of who and what we interact with on social media. I realise it is addictive, e.g. I spent 20 minutes on “suggested for you” content on Facebook this morning without even noticing. However, if we don’t engage with angry people, e.g. by not subscribing or upvoting, then we won’t get that content nearly as much. I also think that as Buddhists we should try to lighten the tone in darker patches of the social media landscape, if we can.

Gassho,
Gareth
Sat today, Lah

[Bion]

One thing is that we are still at least somewhat in charge of who and what we interact with on social media. I realise it is addictive, e.g. I spent 20 minutes on “suggested for you” content on Facebook this morning without even noticing. However, if we don’t engage with angry people, e.g. by not subscribing or upvoting, then we won’t get that content nearly as much. I also think that as Buddhists we should try to lighten the tone in darker patches of the social media landscape, if we can.

Gassho,
Gareth
Sat today, Lah

Or we can refrain from expressing our opinions about every single thing, cause that attracts arguments and we can remove all the people and content that is harmful, including family and friends.. I can be your friend in person and not have you as a friend on Insta or Twitter and we absolutely won’t stop being family just cause I don’t want to witness your Facebook rants and share your chain messages and copy-pastes. It’s absolutely compatible. Interactions online HAVE to be controlled the same way we do in person or face to face.

Sorry for running a bit long here

Sat Today

[Gareth]

Yes, I totally agree, that’s actually what I meant in part. I do think we can choose to curate our social media feeds in the way you suggest. On the other hand, it is also possible to use social media with a purpose, an intention to help in some way.

Gassho,
Gareth

Sat today, Lah

[Tom M]

This is a difficult one. I constantly struggle with addictive behaviours, like my hobby and work both being software engineering, and the addiction to the flow state of engaging with that. It obliterates feelings for a while and is a reassuring place, but the return to reality is often unpleasant, and makes me a worse husband & father.

Tom
Sat today