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Thread: Keeping the Names Straight (as straight as names can go that is).

  1. #1

    Keeping the Names Straight (as straight as names can go that is).

    In reading some of the cases in Dogen's Shobogenzo, it is a challenge to keep these names straight. For example in case 48 (In Nishijima's Shinji Shobogenzo) (case 247 in Kaz Tanahashi and Lori's translation) ,the Zen Master is called Zuigan (Shigen) in Nishijima and called Ruyian (Shiyan) in Tanahashi/Loori and in my Korean lineage past, he was called Soeng Am. We also needed to know the Chinese name also which is Jui-yen Shih-yen.

    I believe that Ruyian Shiyan is Pinyin and Jui-yen Shih-yen is Wade Jiles and Zuigan Shigen is the Japanese version.

    Is there a place where these are listed to follow these correctly?

    And yes, I chose this case on purpose since old master Zuigan called himself master which was the true master which is the only master that really matters in this case, but still the translations of the names keeps my head spinning sometimes.

    Gassho,

    Daiman
    St/Lah

  2. #2
    Hi Daiman

    Yes, it does get confusing. There may be somewhere which has listings of all of the names but the best I have is at the back of Book Two of the Nishijima/Cross Shobogenzo (and maybe also in volumes Three and Four), on pages 291-292, there is a listing of the Chinese masters with both their Japanese and Pinyin names.

    Often it can be good to make your own list as I will admit that I still have to look many of them up.

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    -sattoday-
    ------------------------------------
    Feel free to message me if you wish to talk about issues around practicing with physical limitations. This is something I have been sitting with for a fair while and am happy to help with suggestions or just offer a listening ear.

  3. #3
    Is there a place where these are listed to follow these correctly?
    many of the names of the old Chinese masters in Pinyin, Wade and Japanese, and a lot about their sayings, can be found in: Andy Ferguson, Zen's Chinese heritage.

    aprapti


    sat

    hobo kore dojo / 歩歩是道場 / step, step, there is my place of practice

    Aprāpti (अप्राप्ति) non-attainment

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokuu View Post
    Hi Daiman

    Yes, it does get confusing. There may be somewhere which has listings of all of the names but the best I have is at the back of Book Two of the Nishijima/Cross Shobogenzo (and maybe also in volumes Three and Four), on pages 291-292, there is a listing of the Chinese masters with both their Japanese and Pinyin names.

    Often it can be good to make your own list as I will admit that I still have to look many of them up.

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    -sattoday-
    Hi Kokuu,

    Thank you for this. I forgot to look there. I will start seeing if I can use that to help sift through this a bit better.

    Gassho,

    Daiman
    St/lah

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by aprapti View Post
    many of the names of the old Chinese masters in Pinyin, Wade and Japanese, and a lot about their sayings, can be found in: Andy Ferguson, Zen's Chinese heritage.

    aprapti


    sat
    Aprapti,

    This sounds like a good resource. Thanks.

    Gassho,
    Daiman
    St/Lah

  6. #6
    Is there a place where these are listed to follow these correctly?
    Just the internet. If you put a name in Google, usually wiki, terebess or some online academic publication will pull up biographical information that is fairly reliable, and pops right up.

    I actually have a brain condition of some kind (truly, medically verified) in which I forget names, even sometimes calling my own daughter by the cat's name (truly). I don't try to keep all these names straight anymore.

    Koan: But what is their True Name, and yours??

    Gassho, J

    stlah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post

    Koan: But what is their True Name, and yours??

    Gassho, J

    stlah
    “Hey Jundo?”
    “Yes, Daiman?” “How can I help you?”
    “Oh good, the True Name has appeared. Thank you for your teaching.”

    Gassho,

    Daiman
    St/Lah
    Last edited by Daiman; 03-31-2023 at 11:24 AM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    I don't try to keep all these names straight anymore.

    Koan: But what is their True Name, and yours??
    As a child, mum would go through all my sister's names before she reached mine. I never liked that.

    Now as an older adult, I find myself calling my eldest granddaughter by my wife's name, then explaining to her that there is a facial resemblance. Her reaction is to laugh uncontrollably because she says "but grannie is white!" The girl is mixed race and very clearly of African heritage.

    Then I call one of our cats (who is black and white) by our old cat's name (who was ginger). She doesn't mind so much. So perhaps, as our memories begin to crumble, we should stick to talking to cats?

    On the original subject - to people living today - isn't the teaching important, and our names for the teacher less so? In my house Treeleaf, Tsukuba and Jundo are often referred to collectively as "Japanese HQ".

    Sorry for talking too much (running long as usual).

    Gasshō
    Seiko
    stlah
    Last edited by Seiko; 03-31-2023 at 07:06 AM.
    Gandō Seiko
    頑道清光
    (Stubborn Way of Pure Light)

    My street name is 'Al'.

    Any words I write here are merely the thoughts of an apprentice priest, just my opinions, that's all.

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