Results 1 to 42 of 42

Thread: Should Zen practitioners be politically active?

  1. #1

    Should Zen practitioners be politically active?

    The practice of Zen Buddhism has a long history and is rooted in the principles of mindfulness, non-attachment, non-violence, interdependence, and impermanence. These principles are at the core of Zen practice and provide a foundation for the spiritual beliefs and practices of Zen practitioners. However, when it comes to participating in the political system, these principles may come into conflict with the demands and dynamics of politics. This can create a challenge for Zen practitioners who seek to reconcile their spiritual beliefs and practices with the demands of political involvement.

    One of the key challenges faced by Zen practitioners in participating in the political system is non-attachment. Zen emphasizes the importance of non-attachment and letting go of material things, while politics often requires individuals to seek power and influence. This can create a conflict between a Zen practitioner's spiritual beliefs and their political responsibilities. In order to participate in the political system, a Zen practitioner may have to compromise their principles of non-attachment and seek power and influence, which can be at odds with their spiritual beliefs.

    Another challenge faced by Zen practitioners in participating in the political system is non-violence. Zen teaches non-violence and compassion, which can make it difficult for a Zen practitioner to participate in a political system that may require them to make decisions that result in harm to others. This can be especially challenging for Zen practitioners who seek to maintain their principles of non-violence while participating in a political system that may require them to make decisions that are not in line with their beliefs.

    Mindfulness is also a challenge for Zen practitioners in participating in the political system. Zen emphasizes mindfulness and being present in the moment, which can be at odds with the fast-paced and demanding nature of politics. A Zen practitioner may struggle to balance the need to make quick decisions with the need to stay grounded and mindful. This can make it difficult for a Zen practitioner to participate in the political system while maintaining their spiritual practice of mindfulness.

    The principle of interdependence is also a challenge for Zen practitioners in participating in the political system. Zen teaches the interdependence of all things and the importance of seeking the well-being of all beings, which can make it difficult for a Zen practitioner to prioritize the needs of their own country over the needs of others. This can be especially challenging for Zen practitioners who seek to maintain their principles of interdependence while participating in a political system that may require them to prioritize the needs of their own country.

    The principle of impermanence is also a challenge for Zen practitioners in participating in the political system. Zen emphasizes the impermanence of all things and the lack of a permanent self, which can make it difficult for a Zen practitioner to fully embrace the role of a political leader, who must make decisions with long-term consequences. This can be especially challenging for Zen practitioners who seek to maintain their principles of impermanence while participating in a political system that may require them to make decisions with long-term consequences.

    For those who seek to stay true to their spiritual beliefs and practices, it may be more appropriate to work with things that align with their spiritual beliefs and values, such as volunteering, activism, or working in fields related to environmental conservation or social justice. By focusing on activities that align with their beliefs, Zen practitioners can make a more meaningful and lasting impact while staying true to their spiritual beliefs and maintaining their well-being.

    My 2 cents,

    Gassho, Jishin, STLAH

  2. #2
    What made you think of this?

    Sat Today
    Bion
    美音

    -------------------------
    "Put on the okesa and do zazen - That's all!"

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Bion View Post
    What made you think of this?

    Sat Today
    My mind goes places it should not.



    Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Jishin View Post
    My mind goes places it should not.



    Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH
    Donít know about ďshouldnítĒ . We all have thoughts and opinions about everything. I shall now lay back and see where this pot stirring leads

    Sat Today
    Bion
    美音

    -------------------------
    "Put on the okesa and do zazen - That's all!"

  5. #5
    Another challenge faced by Zen practitioners in participating in the political system is non-violence. Zen teaches non-violence and compassion, which can make it difficult for a Zen practitioner to participate in a political system that may require them to make decisions that result in harm to others.
    I think that the same could be said of life.

    Politics is definitely a place where attachments can happen but, by virtue of that, I think it is an area of life in which we can see how our thinking tends to be split into 'those I like' and 'those I don't like' and communicating with people who hold a different political view can be great for watching our reactivity and practicing Right Speech.

    Activisim, volunteer work and other 'grassroots' politics is definitely something I would encourage all Zen practitioners to become involved with, but politics also has the potential to do a lot of good, so I do not have a problem with people practicing Zen being involved in that. As Rumi once said, there are many ways to kneel and kiss the ground.

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    -sattoday-
    ------------------------------------
    Feel free to message me if you wish to talk about issues around practicing with physical limitations. This is something I have been sitting with for a fair while and am happy to help with suggestions or just offer a listening ear.

  6. #6
    Certainly the divisive and extreme political climate in many countries might dissuade a practitioner from wanting to participate or make a mild natured person unelectable. I would be pleased to see more such people governing though. The Buddha has something to say about righteous leadership: https://mahamevnawa.lk/en/faq-items/...g-to-buddhism/

    Gassho,
    Naiko
    st lah

  7. #7
    I think if I wanted to avoid anything that might expose me challenges related to the precepts - I would probably go live in a cave by myself. And that still probably wouldn't do it.

    I agree with Kokuu, working towards beneficial ends outweighs the risks. But one must stay vigilant as well.

    Gassho, Shinshi

    SaT-LaH
    空道 心志 Kudo Shinshi
    I am just a priest-in-training, any resemblance between what I post and actual teachings is purely coincidental.
    E84I - JAJ

  8. #8
    Kokuu, Naiko and Shinshi have my vote!

    So long as one is working for the greater good, to help sentient beings, then politics and other kinds of social activism can be our Practice, Right Livelihood, Bodhisattva Work. The Bodhisattva works in the world, in the marketplace, but with a still heart and for good purposes.

    The Buddha did advice many kings and leaders who professed to be Buddhists as well, and knew that they sometimes even had to use violence, administer criminal punishments and such, in that role. Although done with regret, it is sometimes necessary for the greater peace of society, and such measures may sometimes need to be taken when other courses are unavailable and it cannot be avoided, with regret and hesitancy, and hopefully fairly and justly.

    Not ALL Buddhists need to be socially active and involved, and some can devote themselves to other things ... but any Buddhist can be politically and socially involved, seeking to make this world a little better, and it is a good path. In fact, some Zen and other Buddhists folks can put political and social involvement right front and center in their practice, their moving Zazen, and that is fine and possible too for those who do.

    Gassho, J

    stlah
    Last edited by Jundo; 02-09-2023 at 04:57 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  9. #9
    Simple answer - If you don't participate in the political process, even if just by voting, you enable people like Putin to run things. Your choice.

    Gassho

    Zenkon

  10. #10
    It's a difficult one. Zen practitioners/Buddhists can be of varying political persuasions whilst living in the same political system, but also we all live in varying political systems that can affect how we are politcally active (as well as the extent of our political activity). We have to find our own path, even if others may not see it as something as Zen practioner 'should' do.


    Ross
    stlah

  11. #11
    Now, another question is whether one HAS to be engaged in politics and social action if a Zen Buddhist.

    I would say that, no, one does not have to be, although I believe that Buddhists should be focused on helping other sentient beings in some way, in some kind of service to others, whether as a caretaker for those who need, parent, teacher, street cleaner, charitable volunteer, musician, artist ... I am not going to say the exact form that the service should take. Personally, I agree that every citizen should vote, and take an interest in local, national and even world events, but I would not say that one has to do so as a Buddhist.

    In fact, much of Buddhist history involves one going to a monastery and closing off from society (of course, in the kingdoms and military empires of old Asia, one risked death and having one's temple burned down if displeasing the rulers, so there was often little choice. It is easier now in western republics where we do not risk jailing for expressing a peaceful opinion. Some in many countries today are still under threat.) However, while I do believe that EVERY Buddhist should focus their practice on service to others ... and should not just be wrapped up staring into their own belly button ... that other directed activity can take many forms unrelated to politics. Frankly, I hope everyone will vote and take an interest in what is happening in their town, nation and the world.

    Second, not everyone in Buddhism needs to have opinions associated with progressive politics. It seems that most people in western Buddhism are on the left in their views (I will leave my personal opinions out of this discussion), I know many conservative Buddhists. Buddhism in Asia can be quite conservative, with many Buddhists having views, for example, which oppose abortion, support "traditional marriage," support the military in what they perceive as defense of society, and the like.

    What Buddhism should not do, in my view, is hold any view which can be considered driven by hate, aggressive violence, prejudice and bigotry against other groups, and the like. Thus, "Zen Buddhist NAZI" would be a no go. One can be quite conservative, and hold sincere and peaceful views about what is best for society and its "sentient beings," without being hate driven, prejudiced and the like. There are many good and caring people on right and left.

    My Dharma Brother, Brad Warner, sometimes expresses opinions that one should not or cannot be a so-called "woke" Buddhist. He is wrong. One can be a "woke" Buddhist, and can support policies which are usually associated with being "woke," and one can organize Buddhist Sangha and activities centered on such causes. There is much good to be said about doing so. However, one need not do so, and their are other ways of being concerned for fellow sentient beings, including sincerely held conservative views.

    However, one's views of "helping sentient beings" must not be based on hate, aggressive violence, prejudice and bigotry, etc.

    (One other area in which I disagree with Bro. Brad VERY much is in his tolerance of "anti-vaxxers" and his spreading of misinformation about vaccines in some of his audio casts. While I do not care so much what somebody does or does not do with their own body in their own foolishness, I do care about the indirect effect on others ... such as the elderly and immune suppressed ... who will be placed at greater risk of death and harm by people who refuse to be vaccinated. Brad also criticizes Zen centers that require proof of vaccine to enter. He is wrong, and with all the elderly and ill folks in Zen centers, it is simply foolhardy not to do so. Peoples' lives are at risk. If we were not online, I would do so here. I almost want to do so even though we are online. I usually avoid political discussion in this Sangha, but I believe that some policies are truly a matter of "preserving life.")

    Gassho, Jundo

    stlah
    Last edited by Jundo; 02-09-2023 at 10:02 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  12. #12
    I won't get into it much, but saying Brad is wrong about his views about the vax is, well, wrong. Much misinformation has been spread by those pushing the vaccine, which is being evidenced more and more every day. I'd be happy to discuss in more in private, Jundo, as I don't think this is the venue to get into it much. However, I had to call you on your blanket judgement of Brad on this. You can say you disagree, stating he is wrong as if it were fact is quite another thing altogether. I also agree with Brad about the "woke" stuff as well. Those who are such, in my experience, are actually the most intolerant people I have come across, and engage in pushing many delusions. I will leave the matter here now.

    Again, teacher, I mean no disrespect in any way to you.

    Gassho,

    John

    SatTodayLAH
    Gassho

    John

    SATToday

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnS View Post
    I won't get into it much, but saying Brad is wrong about his views about the vax is, well, wrong. Much misinformation has been spread by those pushing the vaccine, which is being evidenced more and more every day. I'd be happy to discuss in more in private, Jundo, as I don't think this is the venue to get into it much. However, I had to call you on your blanket judgement of Brad on this. You can say you disagree, stating he is wrong as if it were fact is quite another thing altogether. I also agree with Brad about the "woke" stuff as well. Those who are such, in my experience, are actually the most intolerant people I have come across, and engage in pushing many delusions. I will leave the matter here now.

    Again, teacher, I mean no disrespect in any way to you.

    Gassho,

    John

    SatTodayLAH
    Please feel free to PM me any information that you have.

    However, for the time being, I will stick with the view that failing to be vaxxed is indirectly killing unknown elderly and immune compromised individuals who are placed at risk, thus a clear violation of the Precepts on preserving life as much as walking past a drowning man while taking no action or, worse, tossing him a rock to hold on to.

    As I said, I keep politics outside the door here, but on certain issues ... such as climate destruction of the planet, making sure that lower income folks have food and education and and safe housing and decent healthcare, and this ... it is more the Precepts than politics.

    Gassho, Jundo

    stlah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  14. #14
    Except the vax has been shown not to prevent anything in terms of spread, one of the many fallacies of misinformation about the vaccine. I am secure in my perception of myself not violating any precepts by not being vaxxed. In my case, the vax was contra-indicated for me, due to medical reasons. I am supposedly in a high risk group, had COVID 2x, never had a fever or cough either time. Was fine in a few days. My natural immunity now is better than a vax, this has been shown in many studies that seem to always get ignored by the media. I would think it would be more in alignment with the precepts for the medical community to tell people how to get and stay healthy than pushing meds on them, as the industry does.

    Gassho,

    John
    stlah
    Last edited by JohnS; 02-09-2023 at 11:15 AM.
    Gassho

    John

    SATToday

  15. #15
    I am supposedly in a high risk group, had COVID 2x, never had a fever or cough either time. Was fine in a few days. My natural immunity now is better than a vax, this has been shown in many studies that seem to always get ignored by the media. I would think it would be more in alignment with the precepts for the medical community to tell people how to get and stay healthy than pushing meds on them, as the industry does.
    Being in a high risk group does not mean that everyone in it will get a bad case of Covid, and it depends on your age and other factors. However, it does mean that group is more at risk of their Covid being more serious. I am glad that you had mild cases both times but that doesn't refute the fact that your group in general is more likely to have a more serious infection.

    Immunity against Covid after having Covid is indeed good but 1) that does not help people who have yet to be infected, 2) it offers less protection against new strains than an updated vaccine, and less protection than having been infected plus getting vaxed.

    As regards staying healthy, this is an important thing to emphasise and I am not fond of a lot of elements of the pharmaceutical industry myself which can promote overmedication. However, I have seen a lot of people confusing innate and acquired immunity in respect of this. Whereas being generally healthy and eating well will tend to improve your innate immunity, and that is a good thing, it does not give the acquired immunity that trains the immune system to recognise specific viruses. Immunisations do that.

    If you have medical reasons not to be vaccinated, that is fine, and a good reason for people who can get vaccinated to do that as part of herd immunity. Vaccines do prevent transmission, especially with certain strains such as Omicron, and is dose dependent with each vaccine dose a person has reducing the risk of passing on the virus by a further 12% on average according to a study in prisons (https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-02328-0). That study also shows that infection + vaccine offers greater immunity than either one by itself. So, yes, natural immunity may be similar to being vaccinated, but natural immunity + vaccine is better still so why would the media say that once you have been infected you don't need to get a vaccine when it offers additional protection?

    Apologies for running long and partly with my biologist hat on.

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    -sattoday-
    Last edited by Kokuu; 02-09-2023 at 11:52 AM.
    ------------------------------------
    Feel free to message me if you wish to talk about issues around practicing with physical limitations. This is something I have been sitting with for a fair while and am happy to help with suggestions or just offer a listening ear.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnS View Post
    Except the vax has been shown not to prevent anything in terms of spread, one of the many fallacies of misinformation about the vaccine. I am secure in my perception of myself not violating any precepts by not being vaxxed. In my case, the vax was contra-indicated for me, due to medical reasons. I am supposedly in a high risk group, had COVID 2x, never had a fever or cough either time. Was fine in a few days. My natural immunity now is better than a vax, this has been shown in many studies that seem to always get ignored by the media. I would think it would be more in alignment with the precepts for the medical community to tell people how to get and stay healthy than pushing meds on them, as the industry does.

    Gassho,

    John
    stlah
    From a Buddhist perspective, getting vaccinated against COVID-19 is a responsible and ethical choice as it aligns with several key principles such as compassion, altruism, and respect for life. Buddhism encourages individuals to act with compassion and prioritize the well-being of others over their own self-interest. By getting vaccinated, individuals demonstrate compassion for the health and well-being of others and help to slow the spread of the virus. Buddhism also recognizes the value of life and encourages individuals to respect and protect it. By getting vaccinated, individuals are taking a proactive step to protect their own life and the lives of others, helping to mitigate the harm caused by the pandemic.

    From a scientific perspective, vaccines have been shown to be safe and effective in preventing illness and reducing the spread of COVID-19. Vaccines go through rigorous testing and are continuously monitored for safety. Decades of research have shown that vaccines have been instrumental in controlling and eliminating many deadly diseases, such as smallpox, polio, and measles. The overwhelming scientific consensus is that there is no link between vaccines and autism.

    On the other hand, antivax thinking is based on misinformation, conspiracy theories, and a lack of understanding of the science behind vaccines. Refusing vaccines puts not only the individual but also the community at risk, as it contributes to the spread of disease and puts vulnerable populations at risk.

    Getting vaccinated against COVID-19 aligns with Buddhist principles and is supported by credible scientific evidence. It is important to rely on scientific evidence and trust in the safety and efficacy of vaccines in order to protect not only oneself but also the community.

    My 2 cents.

    Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

  17. #17
    Kokuu actually has a Ph.D. in biology, although he does not usually brag about it!

    He is a man of many talents.

    And Jishin is a medical doctor!

    He is useful for something too, besides starting contentious threads.

    Gassho, J

    stlah
    Last edited by Jundo; 02-09-2023 at 11:48 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Jishin View Post
    From a Buddhist perspective, getting vaccinated against COVID-19 is a responsible and ethical choice as it aligns with several key principles such as compassion, altruism, and respect for life. Buddhism encourages individuals to act with compassion and prioritize the well-being of others over their own self-interest. By getting vaccinated, individuals demonstrate compassion for the health and well-being of others and help to slow the spread of the virus. Buddhism also recognizes the value of life and encourages individuals to respect and protect it. By getting vaccinated, individuals are taking a proactive step to protect their own life and the lives of others, helping to mitigate the harm caused by the pandemic.

    From a scientific perspective, vaccines have been shown to be safe and effective in preventing illness and reducing the spread of COVID-19. Vaccines go through rigorous testing and are continuously monitored for safety. Decades of research have shown that vaccines have been instrumental in controlling and eliminating many deadly diseases, such as smallpox, polio, and measles. The overwhelming scientific consensus is that there is no link between vaccines and autism.

    On the other hand, antivax thinking is based on misinformation, conspiracy theories, and a lack of understanding of the science behind vaccines. Refusing vaccines puts not only the individual but also the community at risk, as it contributes to the spread of disease and puts vulnerable populations at risk.

    Getting vaccinated against COVID-19 aligns with Buddhist principles and is supported by credible scientific evidence. It is important to rely on scientific evidence and trust in the safety and efficacy of vaccines in order to protect not only oneself but also the community.

    My 2 cents.

    Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH
    Your presuppositions are flawed I'm sorry to say. We are not, first of all, discussing all vaccines, but rather, this vaccine. There were no real trials, not the 3 to 5 years worth that is standard for the industry. According to much data, the vaccines did little to impact spread. Why was natural immunity ignores so long until studies forced the admittance of its role? You also, like many who hold your view, use the term anti Vax in a derogatory fashion, most unseemly for a Buddhist. You presume I don't believe in vaccines, which is false. As far as this vaccine goes, there is much data to support my position. If you really relied on scientific data, you would acknowledge that.

    That all being said, I will not silently be judged or condemned in this liberal make shift tribunal. I am actually extremely disappointed but what has been said here. It seems I will need to rethink my being a part of this sangha, for as usual, those who portray themselves as tolerant are the least so.

    John
    Last edited by Kokuu; 02-09-2023 at 12:08 PM.
    Gassho

    John

    SATToday

  19. #19
    I am actually extremely disappointed but what has been said here
    As far as this vaccine goes, there is much data to support my position. If you really relied on scientific data, you would acknowledge that.
    I would be very happy to engage with you if you would like to challenge any of the points I have made. I am not judging or condemning you, but presenting the scientific facts from what I know. However, immunology and epidemiology are not my fields so I may have erred.

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    Last edited by Kokuu; 02-09-2023 at 12:12 PM.
    ------------------------------------
    Feel free to message me if you wish to talk about issues around practicing with physical limitations. This is something I have been sitting with for a fair while and am happy to help with suggestions or just offer a listening ear.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnS View Post
    Your presuppositions are flawed I'm sorry to say. We are not, first of all, discussing all vaccines, but rather, this vaccine. There were no real trials, not the 3 to 5 years worth that is standard for the industry. According to much data, the vaccines did little to impact spread. Why was natural immunity ignores so long until studies forced the admittance of its role? You also, like many who hold your view, use the term anti Vax in a derogatory fashion, most unseemly for a Buddhist. You presume I don't believe in vaccines, which is false. As far as this vaccine goes, there is much data to support my position. If you really relied on scientific data, you would acknowledge that.

    That all being said, I will not silently be judged or condemned in this liberal make shift tribunal. I am actually extremely disappointed but what has been said here. It seems I will need to rethink my being a part of this sangha, for as usual, those who portray themselves as tolerant are the least so.

    John
    John, it is important to approach this matter with an open mind and respect for different perspectives. While I understand your concerns regarding this specific vaccine, it is also important to acknowledge the overwhelming scientific evidence supporting the safety and efficacy of vaccines in general. As Buddhists, it is our responsibility to act with compassion and prioritize the well-being of others, and getting vaccinated is one way we can do so. I encourage you to consider the evidence and the potential impact of refusing a vaccine on both yourself and others. Let us approach this subject with understanding and kindness, and strive to find common ground.

    Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

  21. #21
    With respect, I have read much of the data, as has MY doctor, who told me he was dead set against giving the vaccine to anyone. There are many doctors who strongly disagree with your position, and you know it. This has been driven by many factors which many dont care to see or acknowledge. As a Buddhist, it my responsibility to adhere to truth. Also, it would do well for you to practice non-judgement, as you assume much. My potential impact has been strengthening my immune system, therefore slowing spread. Surely you acknowledge this can be so, as there is much data from studies to support it. You say we should approach the subject with kindness and common ground, and with respect, yet condemn me and judge me and presume things in almost every other sentence you write.

    I am done with this conversation. As I said, I have some thinking to do in regards to the sangha.

    John
    Gassho

    John

    SATToday

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnS View Post
    With respect, I have read much of the data, as has MY doctor, who told me he was dead set against giving the vaccine to anyone. There are many doctors who strongly disagree with your position, and you know it. This has been driven by many factors which many dont care to see or acknowledge. As a Buddhist, it my responsibility to adhere to truth. Also, it would do well for you to practice non-judgement, as you assume much. My potential impact has been strengthening my immune system, therefore slowing spread. Surely you acknowledge this can be so, as there is much data from studies to support it. You say we should approach the subject with kindness and common ground, and with respect, yet condemn me and judge me and presume things in almost every other sentence you write.

    I am done with this conversation. As I said, I have some thinking to do in regards to the sangha.

    John
    I am sure it is not the first time you find yourself in this argument. I guess, anywhere in life, this sangha or others, weíre dealing with different people and beliefs, different personalities and approaches. Not sure youíd be able to ever find a place where everyone thinks exactly the same. Ultimately, we try to find a way to listen to each other and to respect each other, cause that is also our practice, so I hope you donít get too upset with the sangha itself.

    Sat
    Bion
    美音

    -------------------------
    "Put on the okesa and do zazen - That's all!"

  23. #23
    This is off topic. Please argue about it somewhere else.

    Gassho,
    Ryūmon (Kirk)
    Sat
    流文

    I know nothing.

  24. #24
    Why do you assume I want people to think exactly as I do? Have not those who have been judging and making assumptions been guilty of that? Thank you for your words, however.
    Gassho

    John

    SATToday

  25. #25
    Don't think the sangha is really the correct forum to debate such a matter due to the various scientific, political, economic, social etc aspects of COVID vaccinations. I don't think it's helpful saying either stance is or isn't 'Buddhist' either. I sort of think the debate kind of points out some of the reasons why it is difficult to be politically active as a zen practitioner (in the widest sense of the term), due to the varying ways that someone can intend to apply their Buddhist principles into any sort of political or social topic (I don't intend to say that we shouldn't be politically active as zen practioners either).


    Ross
    stlah

  26. #26

    Should Zen practitioners be politically active?

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnS View Post
    Why do you assume I want people to think exactly as I do? Have not those who have been judging and making assumptions been guilty of that? Thank you for your words, however.
    Donít know if that was meant for me, but I donít assume that. I just mean that we all disagree with others and someone disagrees with us. I canít control what others do or think, I can only focus on how I handle what I feel about it, and that applies to everyone. Given that I noticed youíre visibly upset by these interactions, I merely wanted to say: please donít let disagreements make you think the sangha acts as a tribunal and donít be too discouraged, but I was not in any way attacking you or judging you.

    Sorry about running a bit long!


    Sat today
    Last edited by Bion; 02-09-2023 at 01:12 PM.
    Bion
    美音

    -------------------------
    "Put on the okesa and do zazen - That's all!"

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnS View Post
    With respect, I have read much of the data, as has MY doctor, who told me he was dead set against giving the vaccine to anyone. There are many doctors who strongly disagree with your position, and you know it. This has been driven by many factors which many dont care to see or acknowledge. As a Buddhist, it my responsibility to adhere to truth. Also, it would do well for you to practice non-judgement, as you assume much. My potential impact has been strengthening my immune system, therefore slowing spread. Surely you acknowledge this can be so, as there is much data from studies to support it. You say we should approach the subject with kindness and common ground, and with respect, yet condemn me and judge me and presume things in almost every other sentence you write.

    I am done with this conversation. As I said, I have some thinking to do in regards to the sangha.

    John
    Reasons to trust your doctor:

    Personalized medical advice: Personal physicians have a deep understanding of their patients' medical histories, including any pre-existing conditions or allergies that may affect the vaccine's efficacy or safety. They can provide personalized advice on whether the vaccine is right for their patient and answer any questions or concerns they may have.

    Trusted source of information: Personal physicians are a trusted source of information for their patients, and they can provide accurate and up-to-date information about the COVID-19 vaccine. This can help to dispel myths and misinformation and build confidence in the vaccine.

    Monitoring for adverse reactions: Personal physicians can monitor their patients for any adverse reactions to the vaccine, and provide prompt and appropriate medical care if needed.
    They can also provide guidance on when and how to seek medical attention if needed.

    Continuity of care: The COVID-19 vaccine is just one part of a person's overall health care, and personal physicians can ensure that the vaccine fits into their broader health care plan. This can help to ensure that patients receive the best possible care and are protected from the virus.

    Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryumon View Post
    This is off topic. Please argue about it somewhere else.

    Gassho,
    Ryūmon (Kirk)
    Sat
    This is one reason why we leave politics and political discussions at the door.

    Gassho2

    Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

  29. #29
    As I stated, it was my doctor who advised against it.

    John
    Gassho

    John

    SATToday

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnS View Post
    As I stated, it was my doctor who advised against it.

    John
    I think that we should follow our doctors advice because they know how to apply general guidelines to their individual patients.

    Thanks for taking care of your health .



    Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

  31. #31
    Were this a Sangha in which we were all meeting and sitting together in the same physical space, I would admit nobody who was not fully vaxxed (as a matter of fact, I ask all participants in our Zendo in Tsukuba if they are fully vaxxed, and if not they cannot come in. Perhaps they might sit outside).

    However, I would make an exception if someone was not vaxxed because their doctor advised them not to do so because of their personal physical condition. Fortunately, that is not too many people.

    Gassho, Jundo

    stlah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  32. #32
    And that would be your prerogative. Mine would be to happily not attend. I'm curious, do you also demand flu shots? Im not being sarcastic, it is a legitimate question. You don't really need to answer it, because, again, it is your prerogative. You are doing what you think is best, I just strongly disagree. Hopefully we can do that without me being condemned as a bad or non Buddhist.

    Gassho

    John

    satlah

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Were this a Sangha in which we were all meeting and sitting together in the same physical space, I would admit nobody who was not fully vaxxed (as a matter of fact, I ask all participants in our Zendo in Tsukuba if they are fully vaxxed, and if not they cannot come in. Perhaps they might sit outside).

    However, I would make an exception if someone was not vaxxed because their doctor advised them not to do so because of their personal physical condition. Fortunately, that is not too many people.

    Gassho, Jundo

    stlah
    Last edited by JohnS; 02-09-2023 at 02:37 PM. Reason: forgot something
    Gassho

    John

    SATToday

  33. #33
    Having lost two family relatives who died of Covid (my uncle and an in-law), plus friends and acquaintances, plus individuals who appear to have suffered long term effects from Covid, plus my reading of what reputable (emphasis on reputable) sources were advising (from Johns Hopkins, as of last summer) ...

    Flu: The World Health Organization estimates that 290,000 to 650,000 people die of flu-related causes every year worldwide.

    The COVID-19 situation continues to change, sometimes rapidly. Doctors and scientists are working to estimate the mortality rate of COVID-19. At present, it is thought to be substantially higher (possibly 10 times or more) than that of most strains of the flu.
    ... I believe that, during much of the pandemic, Covid was much more dangerous than the flu (there have been an estimated 7 million Covid deaths worldwide since the pandemic began). Now, thanks to vaccinations and other measures and treatments, that risk appears to have dropped somewhat.

    I did not emphasize flu vaccines until Covid began. Since Covid began, I treat flu vaccines and Covid vaccines the same. Both are required to enter the Zendo, plus masks and distancing. I also want my child to go to school with other kids who have been vaccinated against such diseases as polio, measles, rubella and the like.

    Gassho, J

    stlah
    Last edited by Jundo; 02-09-2023 at 02:52 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  34. #34
    Hopefully we can do that without me being condemned as a bad or non Buddhist.
    If you cannot take the vaccine because of a health condition, and your doctors advice not to, then I would not criticize.

    If you will not take it when you could, but choose not to for reasons which disregard the indirect and direct risk you place on others, including the elderly and frail, I will condemn it. I would condemn it in the same way that I condemn drunk driving or shooting firearms in a crowded square ... because it places others at risk.

    Gassho, Jundo

    stlah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  35. #35
    Living in Florida during the pandemic was like being in a madhouse. Everyone was telling you different things. Wear a mask, don't wear a mask. Quarantine, don't quarantine. Get the vaccine, don't get the vaccine. Businesses closed down while not being under any actual mandate to do so, other businesses refused to shut down while also not being under a mandate to do so. You would see exactly half of the people in any grocery store wearing a mask and the other half unmasked.

    Me and my wife got the vaccine early since she works in healthcare and was able to pull some strings, I got a severe adverse reaction from the second dose, had to lay in a bathtub to stop the shaking. My wife developed appendicitis and needed surgery that same week, we'll never know if it was related to the vaccine or just a coincidence.

    That being said, I've continuously encouraged my family to get vaccinated and still continue to do so, but two family members remain actively employed in the healthcare field with religious exemptions to this day. I can't help but sympathize with anyone who refuses to get vaccinated, being that social media algorithms will perpetually reinforce any cultural divisions and conflicts that generate engagement. I think it would be less of an issue if it weren't jobs and reputations being used as collateral.

    Not to throw fuel on the fire, these are just my experiences. When I got the vaccine my attitude was it couldn't possibly be any more harmful to my health than some of the ridiculous things I did in my late teens/early 20s. And it most certainly wasn't.

    Gassho,
    Sat today
    Last edited by Jacob Janicek; 02-09-2023 at 09:32 PM.
    ジャコブジェイ

  36. #36
    When I got the vaccine my attitude was it couldn't possibly be any more harmful to my health than some of the ridiculous things I did in my late teens/early 20s. And it most certainly wasn't.
    Hey thanks for that perspective Jacob

    You know I work in health care, now and through the pandemic. With a bit of the black humour that often accompanies a job in healthcare, I could not help but laugh when people would enthusiastically tell me they would not put "that foreign substance" in their body, because "no-one knows what it'll do to you", while at the same time smoking crack/meth or any other substance they could lay they hands on.

    This is exactly why we have the bodhisattva vows - no more need be said

    Gassho, Tokan

    satlah
    Tokan (Island Nurse)
    I enjoy learning from everyone, I simply hope to be a friend along the way

  37. #37
    Just one little point. History will write as it will. This has been a challenging time with many people trying to do there best under difficult - life threatening - conditions.

    One thing to keep in mind is that attachment leads to Dukkha. And we can get attached to all kinds of things, including ideas and notions.

    Just try to hold things lightly, and treat folks with different ideas gently.

    If you think you know the "truth" you are probably wrong.

    At least that is what I think today.

    Gassho, Shinshi

    SaT-LaH
    Last edited by Shinshi; 02-10-2023 at 02:29 PM.
    空道 心志 Kudo Shinshi
    I am just a priest-in-training, any resemblance between what I post and actual teachings is purely coincidental.
    E84I - JAJ

  38. #38
    To respond to the original qs, I think you should pursue the noble 8 fold path the best and most earnest way you can. If you've taken the precepts, the same.

    If for you that means being politically active, then do that. There are lots of ways to embody buddhist ideals. I think the challenging part is not assuming that your way is best or that you have arrived at the correct answer.

    Today it could be feeding a street dog, tomorrow it might be getting enough sleep ro properly take care of your family, next week it might be marching in the streets to protest state violence. It's specific to each one of us.

    Sat

    W

  39. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Will001 View Post
    To respond to the original qs, I think you should pursue the noble 8 fold path the best and most earnest way you can. If you've taken the precepts, the same.

    If for you that means being politically active, then do that. There are lots of ways to embody buddhist ideals. I think the challenging part is not assuming that your way is best or that you have arrived at the correct answer.

    Today it could be feeding a street dog, tomorrow it might be getting enough sleep ro properly take care of your family, next week it might be marching in the streets to protest state violence. It's specific to each one of us.

    Sat

    W
    I like this. Thank you, Will.

    Gassho
    Sat, lah
    求道芸化 Kyūdō Geika
    I am just a priest-in-training, please do not take anything I say as a teaching.

  40. #40
    As I get older and get deeper in practice and study in the dharma I've allowed my practice to inform my activism more. It's mellowed from radicalism to a much more productive form where I am informed by the compassion that arises from practice rather than a reactionary knee jerk response to talking heads. I find that the two, for me, are but one purpose though they are two separate and distinct things.

    I would hope that politicians are able to tap into practice to be able to make clear and level headed decisions that go beyond trying to keep their job and actually helping the people in their area.

    Gassho
    Kaisho /Chelsea
    Sat lah

    Sent from my moto g stylus 5G using Tapatalk

  41. #41
    Since everyone is sharing their vaccine opi nions Iíll jump in. I am fully vaccinated. I feel safe in the crowd and have confidence in my immune system. I feel that vaccination is a personal choice and I donít try to convince others of its benefits. If someone is not vaccinated, I donít feel threatened by them and welcome them. I do feel sad for the millions that died because the vaccines were not available or they chose not to receive them

    Sat/lah


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    _/_
    Rich
    MUHYO
    無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

    https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

  42. #42
    I think the important distinction is whether we're talking about being "politically active" as simply being vocal about partisan politics, shouting at FOX or CNN as if it were a team sport, or, being politically active in the sense of using our ideals and ideas as part of practice to better the lives of those around us.
    One could call politicians, Tucker Carlson or Rachel Maddow "politically active," but one could also call Bernie Glassman, Thich Nhat Hanh or Wavy Gravy the same.
    There may be a way to do both, but my own preference is, in a world of Tucker Carlsons, I'd rather be a Wavy Gravy.

    Sat.
    Gonna sit.
    On my way to lend a hand.
    Gassho!
    -Ankai

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •