The Satipatthana Sutra

[Hōzan]

Currently reading Joseph Goldstein’s ‘Mindfulness’ and wondered if there are any good commentaries on the satipatthana sutra out there? Maybe from a zen point of view?

, Michael
Sat today

[Kokuu]

Hi Michael

The Satipatthana is a lovely sutra but the description of meditation it goes into is quite distinct to what we do in Zen. I don't know of any Zen commentaries on it, aside from the one by Thich Nhat Hanh, but his version of Vietnamese Zen explored mindfulness so it is not surprising that he talked about that sutra and the Anapanasati Sutta also.

Transformation and Healing by Thich Nhat Hanh


Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Hōzan]

Thank you
I love his books so this was bulls eye.
Hmm, I see so many similarities between our sitting and the teachings in this sutra that I struggle with separating the two. Still learning

Michael
Sat today

[Jundo]

Hi Michael,

As Kokuu points out, Vietnamese Buddhism in general, including many of the Teachings of Thich Nhat Hanh, are greatly influenced by geographically near Southeast Asian Theravadan practices and perspective.

However, we did have a recent discussion that brough up some interesting possibilities:

A student of Kyonin's in Mexico, Hokin, made a very interesting post. Frankly, I think that there is no need to find such close parallels. There are many ways of meditation throughout Buddhism and elsewhere, and South Asian practices and Chinese or Japanese practices need not be exactly the same. However, he said that he saw some special parallels between Shikantaza and the Satipatthana. Maybe so, maybe so ...

I find that one can eventually trace basic "shikantaza" teachings even back to good ol' Shakyamuni himself, if you really read through the pali tipitaka, there are very many cases where one can see how much stress is made of "SITTING DOWN CROSSLEGGED" (निसीदति, पल्लङ्कं आभुजित्वा) with "BODY ERECT" (उजुं कायं पणिधाय), "JUST OBSERVING", while "SIMPLY KNOWING" (पजानाति) and "RELAXING/LETTING GO" (पस्स even of "NIBBANA" itself!), to finally, being RID OF DESIRE AND ADVERSION FOR ANYTHING IN THE WORLD (विनेय्य लोके अभिज्झा दोमनस्सं) and MAKE AN END TO SUFFERING. (Check for sure, amongst so many other early texts, the 'twin' ANAPANASATI & SATIPATTHANA SUTTA -two of the most, if not THE most, detailed texts on sitting meditation we are left with among the Buddha's original teachings- as well as the MULAPARIYAYA SUTTA. Respectively suttas number 118, 10 and 1 of the Majjhimanikaya collection of discourses.)
Never forget, also, that he (Buddha) completely woke up (realized enlightenment), only when he let go of the "way-seeking mind" itself (which included a good amount of kinds of different meditation techniques existing at his time in india, which he personally tried, but felt they failed as to make an end to suffering) and sat under the bodhi-tree with the very same actitude he had once when only a child, when he ran away from the crowd attending a festival and sat under a rose-apple tree, finally free of anxieties and ideas of achievement, but open minded (and hearted).

But I will leave you with just these two much interesting (to me) quotations from those very early suttas as well...


1) फस्सद्वयं सुखदुक्खे उपेक्खे
अनानुरुद्धो अविरुद्ध केनचि लोके
Look with equanimity at the duality of painful and pleasant contacts, without favoring or opposing anything. (Samyutta Nikaya 35,95)

Doesn't this sound shockingly similar to the first two verses of the Hin Hsin Ming? Which is shockingly similar, in its turn, to the "basic shikantaza tachings", for that matter...

And...:

2) तस्स सम्मा विमुत्तस्स
सन्तचित्तस्स भिक्खुनो
कतस्स पटिचयो नत्थि
करणीयं न विज्जति
For that one, rightly freed,
a practitioner with peaceful mind,
there’s nothing to be improved,
and nothing more to do. (Anguttara Nikaya 6.55)


Reminds me a bit of "mushotoku", doesn't it?

Anyway, as I already stated, there are sooooo many exemples of "shikantaza" teachings in the first pali suttas!!! One just has to go and read with open mind and heart...and experience in practice also...that is fundamental!
I think...

Gassho.
Hokin.
ST.

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...l=1#post271612

Sounds good to me! Could be, could be. "Food for non-thought." Yes, Shikantaza is the medicine for desire, the root of Dukkha, and putting down that hunger is the cure.

In any case, I did point out this in that discussion, as I sometimes do, some scholars' descriptions of "Jhana of the Suttas" vs. "Jhana in the later commentaries":

... you might be interested in the history and examination of Jhana and samadhi by Richard Shankman. He makes the argument that the Fourth Jhana, originally the highest, is actually a putting aside of blissful and highly concentrated states in favor of equanimious sitting with a sense of wholeness, at least as described in the Suttas before the Vishudimagga and other commentaries (perhaps under the influence of Bhraman/Hindu practices which the Buddha originally may have rejected) turned the meaning of Jhana to some kinds of deeply concentrated and blissful, even other worldly states:

"Just Sitting" Shikantaza which we practice at Treeleaf is placed in historical context perhaps closer to the intent of the older Pali Suttas for "open, spacious, aware samadhi which thus brings insight" than other later forms.

More here:

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...l=1#post266905

and

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...l=1#post266908

In any case, Indian curry is good, Thai curry is good, Japanese "kare" (curry) is good, all delicious and filling even if spiced their own ways.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Tai Do]

Very interesting, Jundo. Will look at those suttas when I have more time available.
Gassho,
Tai Do (Mateus)
Satlah

[Shinshi]

Hi Michael,

As Kokuu points out, Vietnamese Buddhism in general, including many of the Teachings of Thich Nhat Hanh, are greatly influenced by geographically near Southeast Asian Theravadan practices and perspective.

However, we did have a recent discussion that brough up some interesting possibilities:

A student of Kyonin's in Mexico, Hokin, made a very interesting post. Frankly, I think that there is no need to find such close parallels. There are many ways of meditation throughout Buddhism and elsewhere, and South Asian practices and Chinese or Japanese practices need not be exactly the same. However, he said that he saw some special parallels between Shikantaza and the Satipatthana. Maybe so, maybe so ...



Sounds good to me! Could be, could be. "Food for non-thought." Yes, Shikantaza is the medicine for desire, the root of Dukkha, and putting down that hunger is the cure.

In any case, I did point out this in that discussion, as I sometimes do, some scholars' descriptions of "Jhana of the Suttas" vs. "Jhana in the later commentaries":



In any case, Indian curry is good, Thai curry is good, Japanese "kare" (curry) is good, all delicious and filling even if spiced their own ways.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

Thank you Jundo. Really interesting.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Hōzan]

Thank you, Jundo That is helpful to me. I have (it appears, unconsciously) adopted the following definition (right or wrong) of mindfulness: awareness of stimuli (smell, touch, light, heat, pressure, thoughts, feelings, etc.) without judgement/getting caught up in them…which seems like “open awareness”. This seems to suggest something down the same line.

Michael
Stlah

[Jundo]

awareness of stimuli (smell, touch, light, heat, pressure, thoughts, feelings, etc.) without judgement/getting caught up in them

Generally, in Shikantaza, we say not to even try to be aware of "smell, touch, light, heat, pressure, thoughts, feelings, etc.," and don't try (as they do in many Vipassana practices) to mentally identify or isolate sensations of "smell, touch, light, heat, pressure, thoughts, feelings, etc." ... but rather just sit ...

... with the emphasis on the "without judgement/without getting caught up" part.

Gassho, J

stlah

[Hōzan]

Yes, because we sit without intentionality, of course. Thank you!

Michael
stlah

[Tairin]

Yes, because we sit without intentionality, of course. Thank you!

Michael
stlah

I don’t think that is quite right. I absolutely sit with intention. The intention is to just sit quietly for some period of time. When thoughts arise just let them go and don’t follow them.

Sitting without goals is not the same is sitting without intention.


Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Jundo]

I don’t think that is quite right. I absolutely sit with intention. The intention is to just sit quietly for some period of time. When thoughts arise just let them go and don’t follow them.

Sitting without goals is not the same is sitting without intention.


Tairin
Sat today and lah

Hmmm.

Of course, we sit after having the intention to get our feet over to the cushion, and the intention to bow and sit down.

But once sitting, one might say that one should sit with the only intention being to sit, an intention fulfilled by sitting. There is no goal or intention for anything else but sitting.

Of course, we have other things that the body is doing, like breathing, not closing the eyes, and sitting in a balanced way, not falling over. We let thoughts go. But truly, these happen naturally, so I would not call that "intention."

And really, in Shikantaza, we even might be said to drop from mind thought of "intention vs. no intention"... and Just Sit. The Morning Star shines without "intention" to shine, just shining. One is just sitting in such way.

Frankly, it is rather a speculative topic, not something to analyze too closely. However, the bottom line is ...

... Just Sit to Sit, free of all goal and intention.

Gassho, J

stlah

[Tairin]

Thank you Jundo. You expressed it better than my fumbling attempt.


Tai
Sat today and lah