Leaving Everything

[okan_toygun]

Hello,

I am new and sorry for my English. I have started to meditate in the local zendo and also try to meditate everday at home. Also I have started Jundo's book but I can't follow treeleaf easly, sometimes I'm looking topics for some inside.

At the zendo, I am not comfortoble to sit 1.5 hours so I struggle everytime. Elders of zendo tells me you can do some exercises and you can sit in half lotus. In this forum I searched many people says you should try burmese but I tried it, always my back hurts.

So, I was at home and I did some exercises like streching and tried half lotus and meditate. I feel pain all the time, maybe I could do zazen 30 minutes but I can stand just 15 in half lotus. I didn't even want to do mudra to sit zazen. I start to complain. Why we are doing this. I just want to sit. Why people still follow these rules. Why is zazen still about following these rules. I think I overwhelmed. And these times, I just want to quit everything, I just want to be empty.

Right now I don't understand Why there are so much thing if we just want to sit. I little bit lost my connection with tradition. I experienced this lots of time in my life so I don't continue anything with this mindset so I don't want to quit easly zazen too. I thought maybe I can write here for some inside.

Thank You
Okan

[Tokan]

Hi Okan

I will just say welcome! There is much understanding and friendship here, I'm confident you will feel supported by the sangha in your practice

Tokan, satlah

[Gareth]

Hello,

I think there are a lot of people who cannot sit in half lotus. It would be a shame for zazen to be restricted just to people with a high level of flexibility.

Gassho,
Gareth

Sat today, Lah

[Nengei]

Hello Okan, and welcome to Treeleaf. It is nice to have you here.

You asked

Why is zazen still about following these rules.

It does not have to be! There are certain benefits you might find from stricter sitting poses in more advanced practice, but these are few, and relatively minor in comparison to just sitting.

If you can sit full-lotus, sit full-lotus.
If you can't sit full-lotus, sit half-lotus or seiza.
If you can't sit half-lotus or seiza, sit Burmese.
If you can't sit Burmese, sit cross-legged.
If you can't sit cross-legged, sit up in a chair.
If you can't sit up in a chair, recline.

We even have had formal zazenkai where everyone reclined, in support of our disabled members who are unable to sit upright: https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...eclining+zazen

And we make allowances for every genuine need.

I myself can sit Burmese style for one period of about 25 minutes. But if I am going to sit longer than that, I use a chair with a small cushion and sit upright.

If you hang around with us for a while, you will see that there are many ways we practice, and while practice can have some mild pain, it is not about agony. That does not help anyone. 1.5 hours is a lot; maybe if you are not able to manage that, sit for less. Better to sit well for 1 minute or 5 minutes, than be in agony for 30 minutes or an hour.

So please explore the forums, read the sections for newcomers: https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/foru...GINNER-s-PLACE
and sit with us, how you can.

Gassho,
Nengei
Sat today. LAH.

Please excuse any appearance that I am teaching. I am a priest in training, and have no qualifications or depth of knowledge for teaching Zen practice or the Dharma.

[Jundo]

Hello,

I am new and sorry for my English. I have started to meditate in the local zendo and also try to meditate everday at home. Also I have started Jundo's book but I can't follow treeleaf easly, sometimes I'm looking topics for some inside.

At the zendo, I am not comfortoble to sit 1.5 hours so I struggle everytime. Elders of zendo tells me you can do some exercises and you can sit in half lotus. In this forum I searched many people says you should try burmese but I tried it, always my back hurts.

So, I was at home and I did some exercises like streching and tried half lotus and meditate. I feel pain all the time, maybe I could do zazen 30 minutes but I can stand just 15 in half lotus. I didn't even want to do mudra to sit zazen. I start to complain. Why we are doing this. I just want to sit. Why people still follow these rules. Why is zazen still about following these rules. I think I overwhelmed. And these times, I just want to quit everything, I just want to be empty.

Right now I don't understand Why there are so much thing if we just want to sit. I little bit lost my connection with tradition. I experienced this lots of time in my life so I don't continue anything with this mindset so I don't want to quit easly zazen too. I thought maybe I can write here for some inside.

Thank You
Okan

Hi Okan,

At Treeleaf, we recommend to find the posture which is right for you body. If it feels balanced, stable, comfortable, and allows you to sit for a long time, then it is a good posture for you. It can be cross legged, in a chair, on a Seiza bench or (if health reason) even reclining.

Part of Zen tradition is to follow silly rules in order to become free of silly rules. In other words, our head is filled with "I like/I dislike." We practice to do some things we dislike, in order to learn equanimity and to put down "like/dislike."

Some silly things we do because they are actually not silly. Cross legs is a balanced and stable posture for many people. Also, when we all do ritual or procedures together, it is like a dance, a ballet. In learning a ballet, we let the body memorize the movements so that we can stop thinking about the movements, like losing ourself (and finding our freedom) in a dance.

It is okay to sit Zazen 15 minutes, 30 minutes, 1 hour or 5 minutes ... but always stop having "goal" in sitting, and stop thinking about time measures during sitting.

Gassho, Jundo

stlah

[okan_toygun]

Thank you for all answers. I will consider them and I think I will find a good way to continue in time.

[Veronica]

Hi Okan. I kneel on my mat and put the cushion sideways under my bottom, between my feet. Jundo showed it in a video. I also cannot tolerate Burmese although I tried. It's ok.

Treeleaf forum can be soooooo big, even for someone with very comfortable English. You don't have to read it all. And the group is so nice and answers questions if we can't find the answer.


Veronica
Sat today

[Onsho]

I sit the same way as Veronica. The 3 tricks i have learned to seiza is
1: really fluff up the zaofu, have it side ways
2: pinch it a bit with your feet so it doesn’t flatten
3: lots of padding for your knees (yoga matt folded in half with two blankets folded into four in my case ) and poke your toes off the back.

Listen to your body, it knows how to drop away when you sit. You got this

Gassho
Keith
Satlah

[Ankai]

I sit in the seiza posture; it's the only way I can do Zazen for any length of time. Over the years, I've also stopped using a timer at all, unless I've got something I have to do or somewhere to be after I sit. I find it's not conducive to quality in my meditation if I'm thinking about the clock and waiting for the "ding." In the beginning, it may aid in discipline. But, it's an aid, not a monitor.


Just sat.

[Onki]

Do what is right for you whether that be half lotus, Burmese, or reclined. I personally cannot sit Burmese for long. I have to alternate between Burmese and reclined as I have chronic pain.
Treeleaf is a wonderful Sangha. Everyone is very helpful. I hope you find what works for you

Gasshō,

Onki

Sat today

[Chikyou]

Welcome!

I also sit seiza. I have an extra tall zafu (purchased from Dharmacrafts, no affiliation, I just recommend them if you need supplies). I started with a regular one but I had trouble being comfortable for long. Now I use the high one, not turned on its side, and have my feet hanging off the back of my zabutan. I have a little pillow to support my hands so my back doesn't hurt. I can sit for long periods this way without pain or discomfort (although there IS a limit of course).

Sorry to run long.

Gassho,
SatLah
Kelly

[Shinshi]

I too sit Seiza, I have two herniated disks in my lower back and, sadly, one of the things that really aggravates them is sitting (or standing in one place - oddly if I am moving I tend to be ok). I have taken to using a chair much more often - and doing Kinhin more often. I can still get caught in the attachment that some ways of sitting are "better" than others like being in a chair is somehow inferior. I try to remember to adapt and move forward. I think that working with pain that comes up while sitting can be very valuable, but I also now think that doing things that you know will cause pain is not noble or useful. It is just distracting.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Jishin]

I am just old. I sit seiza.

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

[okan_toygun]

Oh thank you guys. I will also try to sit seiza.
Yes treeleaf is great. Right now I read Jundo's book, and it helps also alot. I feel so lucky to practice zazen after many years in searching what is suitable for me. I resonate with ideas in the book. I feel soo lucky.

Okan
Sat Today