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Thread: Keizan’s No Entering, No Emerging Samadhi

  1. #1

    Keizan’s No Entering, No Emerging Samadhi



    Experiences of samadhi are commonly described as peaceful and pleasant states of deep concentration, entered into with body and mind. Buddhism offers a variety of breath and other physical and mental practices in order to attain these peaceful, often blissful states of deep concentration. Cherished throughout Buddhism, Soto Zen Buddhists likewise treasure such times, when all measures of time drop away. The heart is whole and calm, simple, still and equanimous, often truly blissful, rapturous, as the tensions and borders dividing our little “self” and the “not self” world soften or fully drop away. Such timeless times are precious, a vital aspect of the path.

    However, Soto teachings do not limit samadhi only to particular moments, feelings or states, for samadhi is truly boundless! Such unbounded samadhi may baffle those caught in ideas of samadhi as merely concentrated states.

    True samadhi is not restricted to peaceful and pleasant moments of deep concentration but, rather, is all moments and all reality, each truly precious, not only the calm and pleasing. Soto ancestors have criticized limited views of samadhi as only peaceful and pleasant states, only times of deep concentration, only experiences to be entered into then departed from, only certain conditions that emerge and are attained, or only a matter of body and mind. True samadhi exists always, is not dependent on whether peace or bliss is experienced or not experienced, cannot be attained or lost, never emerges or departs.

    Master Keizan, the great Soto Zen founder, expresses this never entered/never departing samadhi in his Denkoroku (Case 17). There, he tells the tale of Zen Ancestor Rahulabhadra's first encounter with his future disciple, Sanghanandi, who is found engaged in very deep meditation, unmoving for weeks! Sanghanandi finally emerges from his deep concentration state, which Rahulabhadra then criticizes, for true samadhi is not a matter of “entering into” nor “emerging from.” Keizan relates the story this way [based on SZTP translation]:

    Samghānandi ... was sitting peacefully, entered into samadhi. The Venerable [Rahulabhadra] and his congregation waited for him. When three seven-day periods had passed, [Samghānandi gradually] arose from his samadhi. The Venerable [Rahulabhadra] asked, “Is your body in samadhi or is your mind in samadhi?” [Samghānandi] said, “Body and mind together are in samadhi.” The Venerable [Rahulabhadra then] said, “If body and mind together are [truly] in samadhi, then how can there be emerging from it or entering into it?”

    Rahulabhadra means that, if body and mind are in the true samadhi of all reality (as we always are), there is no body nor mind, no in vs. out, and thus true samadhi is not some state to enter or exit.

    The meaning of this somewhat puzzling exchange becomes a clearer if we recall that, in Zen Wisdom, one does not truly come and go from reality even as we come and go in life, there is no “entrance” nor “exit” from wholeness even as we may enter and exit concentration or any other states, there are no “starts” or “finishes” in the timeless-unbroken even as time has starts and finishes, nor does the whole (being so whole) have an “inside” as opposed to an “outside,” nor separate somethings called “body” and “mind,” even as we experience these in practical terms. The wholeness of reality is all of this, all true at once, thus true samadhi sweeps in all these seemingly incongruous views.

    For such reason, Keizan comments:

    If it is said that body and mind are truly both in samadhi, then how can there be emerging from it and entering into it? If one faces body and mind and cultivates samadhi, then this is still not true samadhi. If it is not true samadhi, then how can there be emerging from it and entering into it? If there is emerging from and entering into, then we must say that this is not samadhi. Do not face the abode of samadhi and seek body and mind. Inquiring into Zen is, fundamentally, the sloughing off of body and mind. What is it that we call “body”? What is it that we call “mind”?

    Keizan here reiterates that if body and mind are in true samadhi (we always are), there is no body nor mind, no in vs. out, and thus true samadhi is not some state to enter or exit. If one seeks to cultivate samadhi using body and mind, then that is not true samadhi, and in that case, if it is not true samadhi, how can one claim to be entering and emerging from true samadhi? If there is emerging from and entering into, then we must say that this is not true samadhi. Do not seek samadhi with body and mind, do not seek body and mind in samadhi, but rather, drop off body and mind and the rest.

    Keizan returns to this teaching in a later section of Denkoroku (Case 34). True Nature is not anything that can be entered or exited, has no outside as opposed to inside (for it leaves nothing out), is a wisdom beyond discriminating thoughts, perceiving and knowing that nonetheless is all perceiving and knowing, and leaps through both movement and stillness yet is precisely all movement and stillness of this world:

    Truly, this place of profound obscurity has no surface or interior; in the border of its ultimate profundity, there is no opening, even when chopped by an axe. Therefore, what levels could there be? … This body is not anything that can be discerned on the basis of movement or stillness. This wisdom is not anything that can be distinguished on the basis of perceiving and knowing. [Yet] because perceiving and knowing, too, are this wisdom, movement and stillness likewise are not other [than it].

    This all becomes a bit clearer when Sanghanandi and Rahulabhadra compare entering and exiting samadhi, and samadhi’s emerging or vanishing, to our entering a mine to find gold, and gold emerging from a mine. Sanghanandi first presents a one-sided view, comparing samadhi to gold which is always still, even though there is one’s entering to find it, then its emerging or our leaving:

    Although there is emerging and entering, the characteristic of concentration [samadhi] is not lost. Like gold in a mineshaft, the essence of gold is always at rest.

    In other words, Sanghanandi says that samadhi is entered and exited, emerges and vanishes, despite which samadhi remains as some unchanging stillness. However, Rahulabhadra rejects such a view. Rather gold is gold [samadhi is samadhi] whether in or out but, because it leaps past both movement and stillness, what entrance or exit is possible, what need to speak of "in" or "out?"

    Gold may be in a mineshaft, or gold may be out of a mineshaft, but if gold lacks movement or stillness, what thing is it that might emerge or enter?

    In other words, Rahulabhadra says that this is not a matter of being in samadhi or outside samadhi (truly, there is no “in” apart from “out.”) In fact, because samadhi is not limited by movement and stillness, there is no measure of a state of samadhi emerging, of entering such state or of then exiting.

    Keizan Zenji expresses approval of this observation by Rahulabhadra:

    Indeed, if gold [samadhi] had movement or stillness, or had places it emerged from or places it entered, it would not be true gold [true samadhi]. However [Samghānandi, unfortunately,] still had not penetrated this principle.

    Keizan agrees with Rahulabhadra: If samadhi has movement or stillness, or places in-or-out to enter or emerge from, it would not be true samadhi. Sadly, Samghanandi does not understand. Samghānandi goes on to further display his misunderstanding:

    [It is said] that gold [samadhi] has movement and stillness, and is a thing that might emerge and be entered. I speak of gold’s [samadhi’s] emerging and entering, but say that in gold [samadhi] there is no movement or stillness.

    Keizan expresses disapproval of such a view: Keizan says that Samghanandi tries to split things by saying that samadhi is entered and emerged from even though samadhi is beyond movement and stillness:

    If one says that gold lacks movement and stillness, but that it does have emerging and entering, this is still a dualistic view.

    Keizan declares that it is dualistic to say that one emerges and enters into samadhi even though samadhi is free of movement and stillness.

    Rahulabhadra also disapproves of Samghanandi’s view:

    If the gold stays in the mineshaft, then how can what emerges be gold? If the gold emerges from the mineshaft, then what thing is it that remains within?

    If gold only stays in the mine, how can that which emerges be gold? And if gold emerges, what is left inside? Rather, it is best to say that there is no inside or emerging, no outside nor entering, then all is gold.

    Keizan adds:

    From outside, in the final analysis, one is not free to enter. From inside, too, one is not free to emerge. If one emerges, one is completely emerged. If one enters, one is completely entered. What could be in the mineshaft, or emerge from the mineshaft? Therefore, [Rahulabhadra correctly] said, “That which emerges is not gold; what thing is it that remains within?”

    This strange statement makes sense as inside is just outside-on the in, so one is already inside when out; outside is not other than inside-on the out, so no way to depart inside. For such reason, when one has emerged outside, there is nothing but outside, when one is inside, there is completely inside, for there was never anything other than this complete no-sided place (that's always been our place too). This is because there is no inside or outside in this whole, just an “inside” which is thoroughly the outside that is “in,” and the “outside” which is fully the inside that’s “out.” So what could be inside the mineshaft of samadhi and then emerge from the mineshaft of samadhi?

    Keizan continues to wag his finger at Samghanandi:

    Not penetrating this principle, the Master Samghanandi [wrongly] said: “If the gold emerges from the mineshaft, then what remains is not gold. If the gold remains in the mineshaft, then what emerges is not a thing.” These words, truly, are ignorant of the nature of gold. … Truly, although it seemed that he penetrated the principle while in concentration, the Master [Samghānandi] still had views about things and self.

    Because he thought that there was mind and body to be employed to enter or exit samadhi, and that samadhi is something that emerges (appears) and also vanishes, has inside versus outside, Samghānandi thus wrongly thought that if samadhi emerges outside then it is not inside, if Samadhi is inside then nothing has emerged. This is because Samghānandi is caught thinking in terms of body and mind, entering and exiting, appearing and vanishing, in vs. out.

    For these reasons, it is wrong to say that Soto folks do not cherish samadhi. It is simply that we cherish samadhi that is not inside vs. out, entered or not entered, emerging or not emerging, Nor are body and mind mere tools to reach what cannot be reached. In this world in which we constantly hunt for pleasure and fulfilled desires, the denial of which is the dukkha of disappointment and dissatisfaction, true peace comes from dropping all hunt to the bone, sitting in the fulfillment of sitting. As counter intuitive as this may sound, such true samadhi will emerge in Shikantaza from an attitude of radical goallessness, letting thoughts go, whether following the breath or in “open awareness,” Just Sitting in zazen for sitting’s sake. Seeking samadhi any other way may feed the very hunger and thirst for gain that is the root of dukkha, of divided views and opinions. For us, deep and pleasant samadhi states will emerge in our zazen, or they may not sometimes, but all is samadhi. It is much like profoundly knowing that the moon is always shining, round and full, whether seen or unseen by human eye, whether appearing half or full, and even on so-called "moonless" nights or when hidden by the darkest storms. Thus, the moon always shines as our shining. The achievement of true freedom arises from our radically, to the marrow, giving up all need to achieve samadhi, much like a door that unlocks only when we stop struggling to unlock it. The very act of dropping all need to turn the key leads to the door springing open, and our hearts to open in samadhi. Such samadhi is True Peace.

    In Shikantaza, Just Sitting Zazen, we Soto folks drop all notions that we have “entered” or “exited” samadhi, and that samadhi has emerged or vanished, only at those times when we begin or stop feeling peaceful and pleasant. In Shikantaza, we do not run from peaceful and pleasant times of deep concentration (nothing could be further from the truth, for all is welcomed within our mirror-like minds and, in fact, the profound equanimity of Shikantaza is most conducive to such deep concentration happening), but neither do we chase and cling to states of peace and pleasure. That is because we realize true samadhi as having neither “in” nor “out,” as fully the whole of reality, as the timeless times when peace and pleasure are experienced as today’s gift but also, no less, as the times when peace and pleasure are not the gift which life presents some days.

    Gassho, J

    stlah
    Last edited by Jundo; 11-11-2022 at 12:12 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  2. #2
    What a good read, Jundo! So much to unpack here! Thank you!


    Sat Today lah
    Bion
    -------------------------
    When you put Buddha’s activity into practice, only then are you a buddha. When you act like a fool, then you’re a fool. - Sawaki Roshi

  3. #3
    Thank you, Roshi.
    Gassho,
    Mateus
    Satlah

  4. #4
    Thank you Jundo. Fascinating read.

    Gassho, Shinshi

    SaT-LaH
    空道 心志 Kudo Shinshi
    I am just a priest-in-training, any resemblance between what I post and actual teachings is purely coincidental.
    E84I - JAJ

  5. #5
    Thank you Jundo,

    Gassho,
    Koushi
    STLaH
    理道弘志 | Ridō Koushi

    Please take this novice priest-in-training's words with a grain of salt.

  6. #6
    Thank you Jundo


    Tairin
    Sat today and lah
    泰林 - Tai Rin - Peaceful Woods

  7. #7


    gassho

    ds stlah
    Visiting priest: use salt

  8. #8
    The dynamics of experiencing samadhi remind me of trying to fall asleep. If you try to make yourself fall asleep it is the sure fire way to not sleep. The best you can do is try to set the stage for it (cool, dark room and wait till you're yawning, etc).

    Gassho,

    MarkJ
    s@
    Last edited by Koriki; 11-05-2022 at 11:46 PM.

  9. #9
    May we be at peace embracing ALL conditions of life.

    gassho, Shokai
    stlah
    合掌,生開
    gassho, Shokai

    仁道 生開 / Jindo Shokai

    "Open to life in a benevolent way"

    https://sarushinzendo.wordpress.com/

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Shokai View Post
    May we be at peace embracing ALL conditions of life.

    gassho, Shokai
    stlah



    aprapti

    sat

    hobo kore dojo / 歩歩是道場 / step, step, there is my place of practice

    Aprāpti (अप्राप्ति) non-attainment

  11. #11
    Life itself is the only teacher.
    一 Joko Beck


    STLah
    安知 Anchi

  12. #12
    There is no need to reread this, but I rewrote the essay to prepare to submit it to Tricycle. I abbreviated some sections, and added some parts about Zazen. There is no need to reread, but if somebody should want to see the added parts, they are colored in blue:

    ~~~~

    Keizan’s No Entering, No Emerging Samadhi

    Experiences of samadhi are commonly described as peaceful and pleasant states of deep concentration, entered into with body and mind. Buddhism offers a variety of breath and other physical and mental practices in order to attain these peaceful, often blissful states of deep concentration. Cherished throughout Buddhism, Soto Zen Buddhists also treasure such moments, times when all measures of time drop away. The heart is whole and calm, simple, still and equanimous, often truly blissful, rapturous, as the tensions and borders dividing our little “self” and the “not self” world soften or fully drop away. Such timeless times are precious, a vital aspect of the path.

    However, Soto teachings -do not limit samadhi only to particular moments, feelings or states- for samadhi is truly boundless! Such unbounded samadhi may baffle those caught in ideas of samadhi as merely concentrated states.

    True samadhi is not restricted to peaceful and pleasant moments of deep concentration but, rather, is all moments and all reality, each truly precious, not only the calm and pleasing. Soto ancestors have criticized limited views of samadhi as only peaceful and pleasant states, only times of deep concentration, only experiences to be entered into then departed from, only certain conditions that emerge and are attained, or only a matter of body and mind. True samadhi exists always, is not dependent on whether peace or bliss is experienced or not experienced, cannot be attained or lost, never emerges or departs.

    For example, Master Keizan, the great Soto Zen founder, expresses this never entered, never departing samadhi in his Denkoroku (Case 17). There, he tells the tale of Zen Ancestor Rahulabhadra's encounter with Sanghanandi, who practices very deep meditation, unmoving for weeks! Sanghanandi finally emerges from his deep concentration state, which Rahulabhadra then criticizes, for true samadhi is not a matter of “entering into” nor “emerging from.” Keizan relates the story this way [based on SZTP translation]:

    Samghānandi ... was sitting peacefully, entered into samadhi. The Venerable [Rahulabhadra] and his congregation waited for him. When three seven-day periods had passed, [Samghānandi gradually] arose from his samadhi. [Rahulabhadra] asked, “Is your body in samadhi or is your mind in samadhi?” [Samghānandi] said, “Body and mind together are in samadhi.” The Venerable [Rahulabhadra then] said, “If body and mind together are [truly] in samadhi, then how can there be emerging from it or entering into it?”

    Rahulabhadra means that, if body and mind are in the true samadhi of all reality (as we always are), there is no body nor mind, no in vs. out, and thus true samadhi is not some state to enter or exit.

    The meaning of this somewhat puzzling exchange becomes a bit clearer if we recall that, in Zen Wisdom, one does not truly come and go from reality even as we come and go in life, there is no “entrance” nor “exit” from wholeness even as we may enter and exit concentration or any other states, there are no “starts” or “finishes” in the timeless-unbroken even as time has starts and finishes, nor does the whole (being so whole) have an “inside” as opposed to an “outside,” nor separate somethings called “body” and “mind,” even as we experience these in practical terms. The wholeness of reality is all of this, all true at once, thus true samadhi sweeps in all these seemingly incongruous views.

    For such reason, Keizan comments:

    If it is said that body and mind are truly both in samadhi, then how can there be emerging from it and entering into it? If one faces body and mind and cultivates samadhi, then this is still not true samadhi. If it is not true samadhi, then how can there be emerging from it and entering into it? If there is emerging from and entering into, then we must say that this is not samadhi. Do not face the abode of samadhi and seek body and mind. Inquiring into Zen is, fundamentally, the sloughing off of body and mind. What is it that we call “body”? What is it that we call “mind”?

    Keizan here reiterates that if body and mind are in true samadhi (we always are), there is no body nor mind, no in vs. out, and thus true samadhi is not some state to enter or exit. If one seeks to cultivate samadhi using body and mind, then that is not true samadhi, and in that case, if it is not true samadhi, how can one claim to be entering and emerging from true samadhi? If there is emerging from and entering into, then we must say that this is not true samadhi. Do not seek samadhi with body and mind, do not seek body and mind in samadhi, but rather, drop off body and mind and the rest.

    Keizan returns to this teaching in a later section of Denkoroku (Case 34). This is not anything that can be entered or exited, has no outside as opposed to inside (for it leaves nothing out), is wisdom beyond discriminating thoughts, perceiving and knowing that nonetheless is all perceiving and knowing, and leaps through both movement and stillness yet is precisely all movement and stillness of this world:

    Truly, this place ... has no surface or interior; in the border of its ultimate profundity, there is no opening, even when chopped by an axe. Therefore, what levels could there be? …

    ... This body is not anything that can be discerned on the basis of movement or stillness. This wisdom is not anything that can be distinguished on the basis of perceiving and knowing. [Yet] because perceiving and knowing, too, are this wisdom, movement and stillness likewise are not other [than it].


    Sanghanandi and Rahulabhadra go on to compare entering and exiting samadhi, and samadhi’s emerging or vanishing, to our entering a mine to find gold, and gold emerging from a mine. Rahulabhadra declares that gold is gold [samadhi is samadhi] whether in or out but, because it leaps past both movement and stillness, what entrance or exit is possible, what need to speak of "in" or "out?"

    Gold may be in a mineshaft, or gold may be out of a mineshaft, but if gold lacks movement or stillness, what thing is it that might emerge or enter?

    Rahulabhadra says that this is not a matter of being in samadhi or outside samadhi (truly, there is no “in” apart from “out.”) In fact, because samadhi is not limited by movement and stillness, there is no measure of a state of samadhi emerging, of entering such state or of then exiting. Thus, where is the gold of samadhi not?

    Keizan Zenji expresses approval of this observation by Rahulabhadra:

    Indeed, if gold [samadhi] had movement or stillness, or had places it emerged from or places it entered, it would not be true gold [true samadhi]. … If one says that gold lacks movement and stillness, but that it does have emerging and entering, this is still a dualistic view.

    Keizan later adds:

    From outside, in the final analysis, one is not free to enter. From inside, too, one is not free to emerge. If one emerges, one is completely emerged. If one enters, one is completely entered. What could be in the mineshaft, or emerge from the mineshaft?

    This strange statement makes sense as inside is just outside-on the in, so one is already inside when out; outside is not other than inside-on the out, so no way to depart inside. For such reason, when one has emerged outside, there is nothing but outside, when one is inside, there is completely inside, for there was never anything other than this complete no-sided place (that's always been our place too). This is because there is no inside or outside in this whole, just an “inside” which is thoroughly the outside that is “in,” and the “outside” which is fully the inside that’s “out.” So what could be inside the mineshaft of samadhi and then emerge from the mineshaft of samadhi?

    But how to “non-find” this gold which is always present, beyond inside and out? One could try to employ body and mind, seeking to enter within. However, in Shikantaza zazen, because there is no entrance or exit, movement or stillness, nor inside or outside here (the source of all this world’s movement and stillness and all the rest), there is a better way: One Just Sits, dropping from mind all opposites such as movement/stillness, entrance/exit, subject/object, in/out, sacred/mundane, ignorance/enlightenment, buddhas/ordinary beings and separate things such as body and mind, together with all seeking and measures and goals. Then, one finds, one has always been fully entered in what can never be entered nor left behind, and this gold flows and rests everywhere, endlessly.

    Keizan (like Dogen before him) spoke of Shikantaza zazen as such "no in or out" samadhi in his Zazen Yojinki [from Antaiji translation]:

    Clear water has no back or front, space has no inside or outside. Completely clear, its own luminosity shines before form and emptiness were fabricated. Objects of mind and mind itself have no place to exist …., it has no "more" or "less" about it. This is symbolized by the full moon … Difference and sameness miss the point. … There are no waves without water and no water without waves; water and waves are not separate, motion and stillness are not different …

    …. The pure and clear mind is actualized in the present moment; the original light shines everywhere. The water in the ocean neither increases nor decreases, and the waves never cease. … For this, there is a peaceful and pure way: zazen. This is nothing but the samadhi in which all buddhas receive and use themselves as buddhas (jijuyu-zanmai). It is also called the king of samadhis. If you dwell in this samadhi for even a short time, the mind-ground will be directly clarified. You should know that this is the true gate of the buddha-way.


    Zazen samadhi is sitting in clarity as the ocean, as the waves which are the ocean too. Motion and stillness are not different.

    Thus, it is wrong to say that Soto folks do not cherish samadhi. It is simply that we cherish samadhi that is not inside vs. out, entered or not entered, emerging or not emerging, Nor are body and mind mere tools to reach what cannot be reached. In this world in which we constantly hunt for pleasure and fulfilled desires, the denial of which is the cause of dukkha's disappointment and dissatisfaction, true peace comes from dropping all hunt and hungering to the bone, sitting in the fulfillment of sitting. Although perhaps counter-intuitive to some folks, such true samadhi will emerge in Shikantaza from an attitude of radical goallessness, profound equanimity, letting thoughts go, sitting Just Sitting for sitting’s sake, whether following the breath or in “open awareness." In fact, seeking samadhi any other way could feed the very hunger and thirst for gain that is the perpetual root of human dukkha, of divided views and opinions.

    For us, deep and pleasant samadhi states will emerge in our zazen, or they may not sometimes, but ALL is samadhi. It is much like profoundly knowing that the moon is always shining, round and full, whether seen or unseen by human eye, whether appearing half or full, and even on so-called "moonless" nights or when hidden by the darkest storms. The moon is not only the moon when seen, we are never other than the moon even when feeling distant. Thus, the moon always shines as our shining. The achievement of true freedom arises from our radically, to the marrow, giving up all need to achieve samadhi, much like a door that unlocks only when we stop struggling to unlock it. The clouds depart when we do not stir them up with our effort, or even with our desire that they depart. The very act of dropping all need to turn the key leads to the door springing open, and our hearts to open in samadhi. Such samadhi is true peace.

    In Shikantaza, Just Sitting Zazen, we Soto folks drop all notions that we have “entered” or “exited” samadhi, and that samadhi has emerged or vanished, only at those times when we begin or stop feeling peaceful and pleasant. In Shikantaza, we do not run from peaceful and pleasant times of deep concentration (nothing could be further from the truth, for all is welcomed within our mirror-like minds and, in fact, the profound equanimity of Shikantaza is most conducive to such deep concentration happening), but neither do we chase and cling to states of peace and pleasure. That is because we realize true samadhi as having neither “in” nor “out,” as fully the whole of reality, as the timeless times when peace and pleasure are experienced as today’s gift but also, no less, as the times when peace and pleasure are not the gift which life presents today.
    Last edited by Jundo; 11-11-2022 at 12:12 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  13. #13
    Great read. Thank you, Jundo.

    Gassho
    Washin
    stlah
    Kaidō (皆道) Every Way
    Washin (和信) Harmony Trust
    ----
    I am a novice priest-in-training. Anything that I say must not be considered as teaching
    and should be taken with a 'grain of salt'.

  14. #14
    Thank Jundo, for the reading.
    🙏
    Diana
    Sat

  15. #15
    Thank you for the additional parts.
    Gassho,
    Mateus
    Satlah

  16. #16
    Thank you Jundo

    ST/LAH

  17. #17
    Very interesting! Thank you Jundo
    Gassho, Kiri
    Sat/Lah

    Στάλθηκε από το SM-A705FN μου χρησιμοποιώντας Tapatalk
    希 rare
    理 principle
    (Nikolas)

  18. #18
    Thank you Jundo.
    Gassho,
    Kotei sat/lah today.

    義道 冴庭 / Gidō Kotei.
    Being a novice priest doesn't mean my writing about the Dharma is more substantial than yours. Actually, it might well be the other way round.

  19. #19
    Member Getchi's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Between Sea and Sky, Australia.
    Thankyou Jundo, this was very timely for my life.

    SatToday
    LaH
    Nothing to do? Why not Sit?

  20. #20


    Gassho, Michael
    Satlah

  21. #21


    Gassho,

    ST/LAH

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