Advice on comfort for sitting on your knees (seiza)?

[Onsho]

Hello everyone!
Im Keith, im quite new here and im looking for some advice from folks that sit on their knees.
Firstly, I really want to sit in half lotus but my hip wont let me have access to my brain if i do. Very sharp but im working on stretching every day. Iv gone through the beginner resources and have a good start I think. The last 3-4 evening iv tried sitting on my knees with the zafu under my butt, while on a thick is yoga matt folded in two and its by far the best option for me. Can anyone help me with their own experience to really dial in the comfort?
Should the zafu be more forward Centred or backwards? Shape it like a bike seat or pancake?Toes together? Knees apart? My ankles need about 5 minutes after the 45 minute sit to come back to life, can that be helped?

Gassho,
Keith
SatLat

[aprapti]

hi Keith,

my knees don't permit it any more to sit in lotus or Burmese, so i sit on my knees now about a year. I use a rather thick mat under my knees and i use a little bench, not a zafu. I make sure that most weight is on my buttocks, not on my knees. To be sure that your back is straight, it is important to experiment a bit with the height of the bench/zafu.

aprapti

sat

[Ryumon]

It really depends on what sort of knee pain you have. I've got arthritis in my knees, so I can't sit in seiza. For others, it may just be a matter of sitting enough to stretch tendons and ligaments.

You could spend a lifetime trying different zafu positions and different sitting positions. I've found that the best thing is to not get too obsessed by getting it just exactly right, and find a position that doesn't cause pain, and, especially, doesn't cause excess tension in the upper back and neck.

If you have ankle pain, then a yoga mat is not the right thing for you. A zabuton - which is a thick cotton sitting mat - works for the ankles.

Gassho,

Ryūmon (Kirk)

sat

[michaelw]

Welcome Keith
I tried sitting seiza on a my zafu by turning it sideways and reshaping it.
The secret seems to be to get your knees close together to stop the filling collapsing while you sit.
Even so I ended up sinking lower at the end of sitting increasing pressure on my knees.
In the end I got a seiza bench.
There is a world of difference between sitting comfortably and uncomfortably.

Gassho
M
sat

[Tai Do]

I don't know if this is the better place, since it is specifically about knee pain and seiza sitting, but I also have pain problems. In my case though it is on my upper back, shoulders and neck. The thing is that it really doesn't matter what position I use - lotus, half-lotus, Burmese, seiza (without a bench), even in chair zazen. A little context: I don't have arthritis, but have been overweighted and sedentary for many years now, but I gained even more weight (20 Kg) during the pandemic. It has been really difficult to drop away body while feeling this discomfort - I know many people have much more serious conditions and I admire their commitment to practice and their example to all of us.
Sorry for the long post.
Gassho,
Mateus
Satlah

[Daiman]

I don't know if this is the better place, since it is specifically about knee pain and seiza sitting, but I also have pain problems. In my case though it is on my upper back, shoulders and neck. The thing is that it really doesn't matter what position I use - lotus, half-lotus, Burmese, seiza (without a bench), even in chair zazen. A little context: I don't have arthritis, but have been overweighted and sedentary for many years now, but I gained even more weight (20 Kg) during the pandemic. It has been really difficult to drop away body while feeling this discomfort - I know many people have much more serious conditions and I admire their commitment to practice and their example to all of us.
Sorry for the long post.
Gassho,
Mateus
Satlah

Hi Mateus,

I too have this issue and have had it for a long time. I too can change positions and it still creeps in. What I have done to help with this is to make sure that I am not leaning too far forward or too far back on the cushion. Either way can have the head trying to compensate and then the neck muscles work overtime. The other thing that I do is while I am sitting, I am constantly making sure that I am in touch with my body. (I know Dogen had his realization when dropping off body and mind, but for me that just means to not struggle with body and mind and be present with what is). Whenever I bring awareness to the body, I may notice that the head is leaning forward. That is when I tuck the chin in (kind of like we do when we would make a double chin but not as drastic). Tucking the chin in and making sure that the shoulders are relaxed and not pulling forward can help a great deal. It is very subtle but for me makes a great difference.

Gassho,

Wondo,

Sat Today

[Tai Do]

Hi Mateus,

I too have this issue and have had it for a long time. I too can change positions and it still creeps in. What I have done to help with this is to make sure that I am not leaning too far forward or too far back on the cushion. Either way can have the head trying to compensate and then the neck muscles work overtime. The other thing that I do is while I am sitting, I am constantly making sure that I am in touch with my body. (I know Dogen had his realization when dropping off body and mind, but for me that just means to not struggle with body and mind and be present with what is). Whenever I bring awareness to the body, I may notice that the head is leaning forward. That is when I tuck the chin in (kind of like we do when we would make a double chin but not as drastic). Tucking the chin in and making sure that the shoulders are relaxed and not pulling forward can help a great deal. It is very subtle but for me makes a great difference.

Gassho,

Wondo,

Sat Today

Thanks, Wondo. To relax the shoulders is something I'm yet to learn how to do. As for not pulling the shoulder forward, it is kind of hard to do for me to do without breaking the mudra (something I must confess I do sometimes). Onkai's idea of the little cushion to hold the mudra has help a lot, but not to the point that I can forget about the pain.
Gassho,
Mateus
Satlah

[Bion]

Thanks, Wondo. To relax the shoulders is something I'm yet to learn how to do. As for not pulling the shoulder forward, it is kind of hard to do for me to do without breaking the mudra (something I must confess I do sometimes). Onkai's idea of the little cushion to hold the mudra has help a lot, but not to the point that I can forget about the pain.
Gassho,
Mateus
Satlah

I think it’s about the way you are placed on the cushion. Whenever we see each other, for sewing or even after the sit, we can look a bit and see if we can fix your posture to help you be more comfortable. If I can help, I most certainly will, just let me know!


Sat Today lah

[Tai Do]

I think it’s about the way you are placed on the cushion. Whenever we see each other, for sewing or even after the sit, we can look a bit and see if we can fix your posture to help you be more comfortable. If I can help, I most certainly will, just let me know!


Sat Today lah

Thanks, Bion. I will try to show you how I'm sitting. Maybe ask one of my kids to take a picture of me sitting and send you by PM.
Gassho,
Mateus
Satlah

[Bion]

Thanks, Bion. I will try to show you how I'm sitting. Maybe ask one of my kids to take a picture of me sitting and send you by PM.
Gassho,
Mateus
Satlah

We’ll see each other during a sit, I’m sure

Sat Today lah

[Tai Do]

We’ll see each other during a sit, I’m sure

Sat Today lah

Mateus
Satlah

[Onsho]

hi Keith,

my knees don't permit it any more to sit in lotus or Burmese, so i sit on my knees now about a year. I use a rather thick mat under my knees and i use a little bench, not a zafu. I make sure that most weight is on my buttocks, not on my knees. To be sure that your back is straight, it is important to experiment a bit with the height of the bench/zafu.

aprapti

sat

Thank you for your reply.
The bench is very Intriguing. I’m tempted to throwing together and try it out. Do you set the bench on the floor or on a mat or on a zabuton?

Gassho,
Keith
Satlah

[Onsho]

It really depends on what sort of knee pain you have. I've got arthritis in my knees, so I can't sit in seize. For others, it may just be a matter of sitting enough to stretch tendons and ligaments.

You could spend a lifetime trying different zafu positions and different sitting positions. I've found that the best thing is to not get too obsessed by getting it just exactly right, and find a position that doesn't cause pain, and, especially, doesn't cause excess tension in the upper back and neck.

If you have ankle pain, then a yoga mat is not the right thing for you. A zabuton - which is a thick cotton sitting mat - works for the ankles.

Gassho,

Ryūmon (Kirk)

sat

Oh yes, my poor ankles. The position is very comfortable. But bringing my angles back to life as a challenge. I will certainly be trying a zabuton.
Thank you so much!

Gassho,
Keith
Satlah

[aprapti]

Thank you for your reply.
The bench is very Intriguing. I’m tempted to throwing together and try it out. Do you set the bench on the floor or on a mat or on a zabuton?

Gassho,
Keith
Satlah

i set it on a zabuton: without i have a problem with my ankles, with a zabuton not.

aprapti

sat

[Daiman]

Mateus,

Yes a cushion helps a lot. I often use one and my overall pain in the shoulders tends to be better. I see that Bion is able to check your posture next sitting with him. This is a great opportunity.

Wishing you the best with your practice!

Gassho,

Bill

[Tai Do]

Mateus,

Yes a cushion helps a lot. I often use one and my overall pain in the shoulders tends to be better. I see that Bion is able to check your posture next sitting with him. This is a great opportunity.

Wishing you the best with your practice!

Gassho,

Wondo

Thanks, Wondo. Bion's advices were great. I will sit with them from now on.
Gassho,
Mateus
Satlah

[Jundo]

Just to add, I have heard the sometime recommendation for these, and I think that they would be fine for Zazen.



Are they traditional? YES! A brand new ergonomic tradition!

The basic rule of thumb around here is to experiment, know your own unique body. This is the philosophy of this book, which I strongly encourage around here. At basis, if you find a way(s) (because the body changes and adjusts even during a day) that feel balanced, stable, comfortable and allow extended sitting, then that is a good way(s).

Book Recommendation: - THE POSTURE OF MEDITATION
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...-OF-MEDITATION

He recently offered some classes at Tricycle:

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...h-Will-Johnson

Gassho, J

STLah