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Thread: Aug 26-27 Treeleaf Weekly Zazenkai - MORE Zen can solve ALL your problems! (REALLY!!)

  1. #1

    Aug 26-27 Treeleaf Weekly Zazenkai - MORE Zen can solve ALL your problems! (REALLY!!)

    Dear All,

    Our little Talk this time will dance a Koan:

    Book of Serenity, Case 94 - Tozan's Illness:

    Tozan was ill. A monk asked, "Osho, you're sick. Is there someone not sick?”
    Tozan answered, ''Yes, there is."
    The monk asked, "Does the one who is not sick look after you?"
    Tozan replied, "This old monk is able to look after others!"
    The monk asked, "Osho, how about when you look after others?"
    Tozan said, "Then the having of sickness is not seen."


    Please sit our Treeleaf Zazenkai for 90 minutes with Zazen, Heart Sutra and more:

    10am Japan Saturday morning, NY 9pm, LA 6pm Friday night, London 2am and Paris 3am Saturday morning, or any time thereafter here:


    However, "one way" live sitters are encouraged to come into the Zoom sitting, and just leave the camera and microphone turned off: Join live (with or without a camera & microphone) on Zoom at: TREELEAF Now OR at DIRECT ZOOM LINK, password (if needed): dogen

    00:00 – 00:15 CEREMONY (HEART SUTRA in English) and Dedication
    00:15 – 00:45 ZAZEN
    00:45 – 00:55 KINHIN
    00:55 – 01:25 ZAZEN
    01:25 – 01:30 VERSE OF ATONEMENT & FOUR VOWS
    01:30 - 01:45(?) Informal Tea Time (All Welcome)

    ATTENTION: Everyone, when rising for Kinhin or Ceremonies after Zazen, get up slowly, don't rush, hold something stable, you won't be "late," so TAKE YOUR TIME! Make sure you are careful getting up!

    Gassho, Jundo

    SatTodayLah



    PS - There is no "wrong" or "right" in Zazen ... yet here is a little explanation of the "right" times to Bow (A Koan) ...


    Chant Book is here for those who wish to join in: CHANT BOOK LINK

    The other video I mention on Zendo decorum is this one, from our "Always Beginners" video Series:

    Sit-a-Long with Jundo: Zazen for Beginners (12) - Basic Zendo Decorum At Home
    https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...093#post189093

    I also recommend a little Talk on why small rituals and procedures are so cherished in the Zendo:

    SIT-A-LONG with Jundo: Small Things in the Zendo

    https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...s-in-the-Zendo
    Last edited by Jundo; 08-26-2022 at 01:23 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  2. #2
    Ok, I’m ready to bring my problems to have them solved! Make some room in the zazendo, please!

    Sat Today
    Bion
    -------------------------
    When you put Buddha’s activity into practice, only then are you a buddha. When you act like a fool, then you’re a fool. - Sawaki Roshi

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Bion View Post
    Ok, I’m ready to bring my problems to have them solved! Make some room in the zazendo, please!

    Sat Today
    Me too! Thank goodness we practice in 'boundless space'

    Gassho, Tokan (satlah)

  4. #4
    That was very lovely ! Thank you everyone!

    Jewels and pearls of wisdom in every talk.
    Your words are inspiring and lovely. Thank you Jundo.

    Sending all my sincere respect and gratitude for always bringing a smile and peace!


    ln Peace with Nine Bows,
    Anchi
    Life itself is the only teacher.
    一 Joko Beck


    STLah
    安知 Anchi

  5. #5
    Thank you everyone!
    Gassho, Kiri
    Sat/Lah
    希 rare
    理 principle
    (Nikolas)

  6. #6
    Thank you everyone. I sat with you this morning.

    Nice talk Jundo.


    Tairin
    Sat today and lah
    泰林 - Tai Rin - Peaceful Woods

  7. #7
    Nice sitting with you today. I'm reminded of when I was a little kid and I had a big ball of clay. I'd pinch off a few pieces and make a few little men. Then pinch off another and make a dog, etc. Did the creatures I made also think that they were separate or did they know that they were part of the same ball of clay?

    Gassho,
    Mark
    s@ lah

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
    Nice sitting with you today. I'm reminded of when I was a little kid and I had a big ball of clay. I'd pinch off a few pieces and make a few little men. Then pinch off another and make a dog, etc. Did the creatures I made also think that they were separate or did they know that they were part of the same ball of clay?

    Gassho,
    Mark
    s@ lah
    I am gonna steal that story.

    I guess you were their god with clay feet.

    Gassho, J

    stlah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  9. #9
    Wonderful to sit with you all this evening.

    And I apologize for bowing in all the wrong ways a couple of weeks ago. From my screen all I could see was the zendo and didn't have anyone to follow. I figured I wouldn't panic and would just do the best I could but I so appreciate the tutorial.

    Gassho,
    Aimee

    sat today
    Aimee B.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimeebeing View Post
    And I apologize for bowing in all the wrong ways a couple of weeks ago. From my screen all I could see was the zendo and didn't have anyone to follow. I figured I wouldn't panic and would just do the best I could but I so appreciate the tutorial.
    No reason to apologize, Aimee! It's all a repetition and learning thing—and to be honest, if I don't hear a bell fully or I notice my knee twinging more than the words chanted, I still bow in the wrong place after these years

    Gassho,
    koushi
    STLaH
    理道弘志 | Ridō Koushi

    Please take this novice priest-in-training's words with a grain of salt.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimeebeing View Post
    Wonderful to sit with you all this evening.

    And I apologize for bowing in all the wrong ways a couple of weeks ago. From my screen all I could see was the zendo and didn't have anyone to follow. I figured I wouldn't panic and would just do the best I could but I so appreciate the tutorial.

    Gassho,
    Aimee

    sat today
    We have never kicked anyone out for over or under Bowing.

    I flub too. This week, I lit the Incense BEFORE the Ceremony started, when I just was supposed to light the candle alone ... a premature incensing.

    Gassho, Jundo

    stlah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  12. #12
    Thank you, everyone! Sat with you all via recording this evening. The talk gave me peace as I remember that the place of refuge is always there.

    Gassho,
    Judy
    sat/lah

  13. #13
    Just finished sitting with you all

    Wonderful talk, Jundo. You mentioning how our experience of the world is a model we create made me think of Donald Hoffman's discussions on how our perceptions of reality are actually like a computer interface...

    "For the perceptions of H. sapiens, space-time is the desktop and physical objects are the icons."
    https://link.springer.com/article/10...423-015-0890-8

    Thank you Nengyoku for your eno services and everyone for your practice

    Gassho,

    Bokugan
    SatToday

    Sorry to run a smidge long!
    墨眼 | Bokugan | Sumi Ink Eye
    Ryan-S | zazenlibrarian.com

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    We have never kicked anyone out for over or under Bowing.

    I flub too. This week, I lit the Incense BEFORE the Ceremony started, when I just was supposed to light the candle alone ... a premature incensing.

    Gassho, Jundo

    stlah

    The flubs were my favorite part, they served as a fantastic reminder that we're all perfectly imperfect humans and in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter!

    I have a question that I've been meaning to ask: when we recite the four vows, what is the purpose of doing so with differing volume/inflection (first normal, then loud, then whisper?)

    Gassho,
    SatLah
    Kelly

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by KellyLM View Post
    I have a question that I've been meaning to ask: when we recite the four vows, what is the purpose of doing so with differing volume/inflection (first normal, then loud, then whisper?)
    Kelly! You get the prize today for asking a question that, I believe, I have never been asked in 16 years here. I don't know! It is something that I inherited from my mentor, Rev. Doshin Cantor of the White Plum (who passed this year), as it was the way in his Sangha when I was sitting there.

    It reminds me of a true story, when I once asked a priest at Eiheiji's branch temple in Tokyo about why they ring the bells with a certain pattern. (It turned out later that it is because it is timekeeping signals, like European churchbells). But he did not know, so called an older priest who ALSO did not know, but said to me: "We ring the bells that way because ... that is how we ring the bells!" Very Zen!

    I note that the Upaya Zen Center, also connected to the White Plum, is similar in style, slightly more forceful on the second verse, a bit quieter on the third. I will write to Joan Halifax and see if she has some background:


    Looking at the Japanese Soto style, it seems to be a fairly consistent monotone:


    However, there is a Japanese Rinzai way of chanting the Four Vows (the Shigu Seigan Mon / 四弘誓願文) that is so beautiful. You must listen to this, perhaps one of the loveliest chanting styles I know. Perhaps, because the White Plum is a mixed Soto-Rinzai line, it was an attempt to have some feeling of the same musicality.


    In the meantime, I will speak from my own heart what it means:

    First, we chant with sincerity and equanimity; Second, we chant we more energy and determination to realize these Vows; Third, we allow the Vows to merge with quiet and stillness.

    Gassho, Jundo

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 08-29-2022 at 12:54 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  16. #16
    Thank you all for your practice. It was lovely sitting with you all.
    Please be at peace until we sit again.

    Gassho,
    Nengyoku
    Sat
    Thank you for being the warmth in my world.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post

    I note that the Upaya Zen Center, also connected to the White Plum, is similar in style, slightly more forceful on the second verse, a bit quieter on the third. I will write to Joan Halifax and see if she has some background:
    Well, Joan Halifax has responded and, apparently, she created this version with Bernie Glassman Roshi (who also created the interesting melody for our "Indentity of Relative and Absolute Chant" which, truly, is vaguely based on Fiddler on the Roof! )

    Joan writes:

    dear jundo,

    warm wishes to you.
    am not sure of the meaning but i think this is something bernie and i devised years ago.
    we also have tonal shifts in other chants: jeweled mirror and identity...
    and of course gate of sweet nectar has significant melodic shifts.
    as to why, i don't remember...
    this doesn't help you much. so sorry...
    two hands together,

    Rev. Joan Jiko Halifax
    Abbot, Upaya Zen Center


    We chant that way because, well ... that is the way we chant!

    I am sticking with my interpretation:

    First, we chant with sincerity and equanimity; Second, we chant we more energy and determination to realize these Vows; Third, we allow the Vows to merge with quiet and stillness.


    Gassho, Jundo

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  18. #18

    Aug 26-27 Treeleaf Weekly Zazenkai - MORE Zen can solve ALL your problems! (REALLY!!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Well, Joan Halifax has responded and, apparently, she created this version with Bernie Glassman Roshi (who also created the interesting melody for our "Indentity of Relative and Absolute Chant" which, truly, is vaguely based on Fiddler on the Roof! )

    Joan writes:





    We chant that way because, well ... that is the way we chant!

    I am sticking with my interpretation:





    Gassho, Jundo

    STLah
    I remember having this very conversation with Sekishi a while ago! Happy to have an answer to the question. My follow-up to that is about the translation used. Is it yours or is it inherited as well?

    Sat Today
    Last edited by Bion; 08-29-2022 at 10:22 AM.
    Bion
    -------------------------
    When you put Buddha’s activity into practice, only then are you a buddha. When you act like a fool, then you’re a fool. - Sawaki Roshi

  19. #19

    Stlh

    Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
    My life is my temple and my practice.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    We chant that way because, well ... that is the way we chant!
    That reasoning is good enough for me


    Tairin
    Sat today and lah
    泰林 - Tai Rin - Peaceful Woods

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Kelly! You get the prize today for asking a question that, I believe, I have never been asked in 16 years here. I don't know! It is something that I inherited from my mentor, Rev. Doshin Cantor of the White Plum (who passed this year), as it was the way in his Sangha when I was sitting there.

    It reminds me of a true story, when I once asked a priest at Eiheiji's branch temple in Tokyo about why they ring the bells with a certain pattern. (It turned out later that it is because it is timekeeping signals, like European churchbells). But he did not know, so called an older priest who ALSO did not know, but said to me: "We ring the bells that way because ... that is how we ring the bells!" Very Zen!

    I note that the Upaya Zen Center, also connected to the White Plum, is similar in style, slightly more forceful on the second verse, a bit quieter on the third. I will write to Joan Halifax and see if she has some background:


    Looking at the Japanese Soto style, it seems to be a fairly consistent monotone:


    However, there is a Japanese Rinzai way of chanting the Four Vows (the Shigu Seigan Mon / 四弘誓願文) that is so beautiful. You must listen to this, perhaps one of the loveliest chanting styles I know. Perhaps, because the White Plum is a mixed Soto-Rinzai line, it was an attempt to have some feeling of the same musicality.


    In the meantime, I will speak from my own heart what it means:

    First, we chant with sincerity and equanimity; Second, we chant we more energy and determination to realize these Vows; Third, we allow the Vows to merge with quiet and stillness.

    Gassho, Jundo

    STLah
    Wow! What a fantastic discussion. I love hearing all of the different chanting styles.

    The discussion on musical chanting reminds me of this recording of the heart sutra which is absolutely captivating and I listen to it often:



    Gassho,
    SatLah
    Kelly

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Bion View Post
    My follow-up to that is about the translation used. Is it yours or is it inherited as well?
    Yes, it is mine ... although not exclusively ... and has much to do with how one reads 無上.

    So ... in the last line, I use "unattainable" instead of the "unsurpassable" that seems more common in various English translations. Okumura Roshi, in Living by Vow, seems to say that the actual meaning is something like an enlightenment so "unsurpassable" that we can't get there. I would simply add that, while we keep moving forward even though we cannot "get there", from another wondrous way of seeing, we are ALREADY there and thus never any place to get at all.

    Okumura says that the "Four Bodhisattva Vows" are associated with one older way that Buddha's Four Noble Truths were written (from p 16 here):

    https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=...ing%22&f=false

    That older version is ...

    I vow to enable people to be released from the truth of suffering.
    I vow to enable people to understand the truth of the origin of suffering.
    I vow to enable people to peacefully settle down in the truth of the path leading to the cessation of suffering.
    I vow to enable people to enter the cessation of suffering, that is, nirvana.
    Later, a Mahayana twist was put on things. (It is not only a "Zen" Practice, by the way, but most of the other Japanese flavors of Buddhism recite them, as well as Korean and Chinese schools.) The Mahayana versions emphasize that a Bodhisattva vows to do these impossible things but (and this is very important) knowing too that, in Emptiness, there is never any "sentient being" to save from the start, nothing to master or attain. Realizing such fact of "no sentient beings and nothing to realize" and getting the sentient beings also to realize this "nothing to realize" is precisely how one rescues the sentient beings!!!

    [Although the roots of our current version may stretch back further, it is found in the oldest known version (9th Century CE ?) of one of Zen's most cherished texts, the "Platform Sutra of the Sixth Zen Ancestor" (from page 143 here) ....

    https://terebess.hu/zen/PlatformYampolsky.pdf

    "Now that you have already taken refuge in the threefold body of
    Buddha, I shall expound to you the four great vows. Good friends, recite
    in unison what I say: 'I vow to save all sentient beings everywhere.
    I vow to cut off all the passions everywhere. I vow to study all the
    Buddhist teachings everywhere. I vow to achieve the unsurpassed Buddha
    Way.
    Although the chant there does not specifically seem to include the "although numberless/inexhaustable" part of each sentence, it is somewhat implied in the surrounding text, and a later version (13th Century CE?) of the Platform Sutra does contain wording very very close to the modern (page 48 here) ...

    http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachin...ranslation.pdf

    “Good friends, now that we have done the repentances, I will express
    for you the four great vows. You should all listen closely: the sentient beings
    of our own minds are limitless, and we vow to save them all. The afflictions
    of our own minds are limitless, and we vow to eradicate them all. The teachings
    of our own minds are inexhaustible, and we vow to learn them all. The
    enlightenment of buddhahood of our own minds is unsurpassable, and we
    vow to achieve it
    So, my guess is that, as the Platform Sutra was elaborated in later versions, someone added to the Vows too in order to more clearly reflect the Mahayana/Emptiness aspect.

    As to translators, the original in Chinese is this ...

    四宏誓願
    眾生無邊誓願度;
    煩惱無盡誓願斷;
    法門無量誓願學;
    佛道無上誓願成

    Now, when you are a translator, there is much room for word choice and expression as one seeks to capture the meaning from one language to another. So, here is a list of a whole bunch of translations in English (and some in Hungarian!) ...

    https://terebess.hu/zen/szoto/vows.html

    Our "Treeleaf Version" is this ...

    To save all sentient beings, though beings numberless

    To transform all delusions, though delusions inexhaustible

    To perceive Reality, though Reality is boundless

    To attain the Enlightened Way, a Way non-attainable
    I took this in homage to my mentor, Doshin Cantor, who uses about this version as part of the White Plum Lineage (Maezumi Roshi's Lineage) to which he belongs. A quick online search shows that Joan Halifax at Upaya Zen Center, also White Plum (who appears earlier in this thread ), uses about this same phrase:

    Creations are numberless, we vow to free them.
    Delusions are inexhaustible, we vow to transform them.
    Reality is Boundless, we vow to perceive it.

    The awakened way is unsurpassable, we vow to embody it.
    However, is "Reality" a fair and clear translation of "Dharma Gates" (法門 Homon in the original Chinese)? I feel it is. As Okumura Roshi says in Living By Vow (p. 17), "The original word for 'Dharmas' is homon (Dharma Gate), which means teachings about reality and reality based practice." Tanahashi, in his "Zen Chants" book says:

    Dharma: A Sanskrit word means "truth," "teaching," "thing," or "phenomenon"
    Dharma Gates: Aspects or characteristics of dharma
    So, I feel that the White Plum/Upaya version "Reality" which we borrowed is actually clearer than the technical "Dharma Gates" term to modern folks maybe.

    But what about 無上?? That can mean "nothing higher" or "unsurpassable," but it can also mean "cannot be gotten on, can not be risen above" a road or "Way." So, it is an Enlightened Way that can not be gotten on or attained. This is more in keeping with the earlier lines about how we Vow to do what is impossible to do.

    In fact, I stole some of this from Steve Hagen, another Soto teacher (Katagiri Lineage) who has:


    To save all sentient beings, though they are numberless
    To end all desiring, though desires are endless (or inexhaustible)
    To learn the Dharma, though the Dharma is boundless
    To realize the Buddha Way, though it is unattainable
    Gassho, Jundo

    stlah
    Last edited by Jundo; 08-29-2022 at 02:33 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Yes, it is mine ... although not exclusively ... and has much to do with how one reads 無上.

    So ... in the last line, I use "unattainable" instead of the "unsurpassable" that seems more common in various English translations. Okumura Roshi, in Living by Vow, seems to say that the actual meaning is something like an enlightenment so "unsurpassable" that we can't get there. I would simply add that, while we keep moving forward even though we cannot "get there", from another wondrous way of seeing, we are ALREADY there and thus never any place to get at all.

    Okumura says that the "Four Bodhisattva Vows" are associated with one older way that Buddha's Four Noble Truths were written (from p 16 here):

    https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=...ing%22&f=false

    That older version is ...



    Later, a Mahayana twist was put on things. It is not only a "Zen" Practice, but most of the other Japanese flavors of Buddhism recite them, as well as Korean and Chinese schools. The present version emphasize that a Bodhisattva vows to do these impossible things but (and this is very important) knowing too that, in Emptiness, there is never any "sentient being" to save from the start, nothing to master or attain. Realizing such fact of "no sentient beings and nothing to realize" and getting the sentient beings also to realize this "nothing to realize" is precisely how one rescues the sentient beings!!!

    [Although the roots of our current version may stretch back further, it is found in the oldest known version (9th Century CE ?) of one of Zen's most cherished texts, the "Platform Sutra of the Sixth Zen Ancestor" (from page 143 here) ....

    https://terebess.hu/zen/PlatformYampolsky.pdf



    Although the chant there does not specifically seem to include the "although numberless/inexhaustable" part of each sentence, it is somewhat implied in the surrounding text, and a later version (13th Century CE?) of the Platform Sutra does contain wording very very close to the modern (page 48 here) ...

    http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachin...ranslation.pdf



    So, my guess is that, as the Platform Sutra was elaborated in later versions, someone added to the Vows too in order to more clearly reflect the Mahayana/Emptiness aspect.

    As to translators, the original in Chinese is this ...

    四宏誓願
    眾生無邊誓願度;
    煩惱無盡誓願斷;
    法門無量誓願學;
    佛道無上誓願成

    Now, when you are a translator, there is much room for word choice and expression as one seeks to capture the meaning from one language to another. So, here is a list of a whole bunch of translations in English (and some in Hungarian!) ...

    https://terebess.hu/zen/szoto/vows.html

    Our "Treeleaf Version" is this ...



    I took this in homage to my mentor, Doshin Cantor, who uses about this version as part of the White Plum Lineage (Maezumi Roshi's Lineage) to which he belongs. A quick online search shows that Joan Halifax at Upaya Zen Center, also White Plum (who appears earlier in this thread ), uses about this same phrase:



    However, is "Reality" a fair and clear translation of "Dharma Gates" (法門 Homon in the original Chinese)? I feel it is. As Okumura Roshi says in Living By Vow (p. 17), "The original word for 'Dharmas' is homon (Dharma Gate), which means teachings about reality and reality based practice." Tanahashi, in his "Zen Chants" book says:



    So, I feel that the White Plum/Upaya version "Reality" which we borrowed is actually clearer than the technical "Dharma Gates" term to modern folks maybe.

    But what about 無上?? That can mean "nothing higher" or "unsurpassable," but it can also mean "cannot be gotten on, can not be risen above" a road or "Way." So, it is an Enlightened Way that can not be gotten on or attained. This is more in keeping with the earlier lines about how we Vow to do what is impossible to do.

    In fact, I stole some of this from Steve Hagen, another Soto teacher (Katagiri Lineage) who has:



    Gassho, Jundo

    stlah
    Thank you for that! I appreciate all the details given here! I will be coming back to this to study it. My doubt has always been why we omit the word “vow” in each of the lines, though I know it is implied.

    Sat Today


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Bion
    -------------------------
    When you put Buddha’s activity into practice, only then are you a buddha. When you act like a fool, then you’re a fool. - Sawaki Roshi

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Bion View Post
    Thank you for that! I appreciate all the details given here! I will be coming back to this to study it. My doubt has always been why we omit the word “vow” in each of the lines, though I know it is implied.
    It is implied. I think the absence is just stylistic in whoever composed the version on which ours are based.

    Gassho, J

    Stlah
    Last edited by Jundo; 08-29-2022 at 09:40 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    It is implied. I think the absence is just stylistic in whoever composed the version in which our are based.

    Gassho, J

    Stlah
    I see. Thank you very much.

    Sat Today
    Bion
    -------------------------
    When you put Buddha’s activity into practice, only then are you a buddha. When you act like a fool, then you’re a fool. - Sawaki Roshi

  26. #26
    Beautiful sit! Thank you all!

    Gassho
    Kokuu

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Tairin View Post
    That reasoning is good enough for me


    Tairin
    Sat today and lah


    (Excellent question, Kelly --- a lot of good info from Jundo on that one! Thanks all )

    Gassho,

    Bokugan
    SatToday LaH
    墨眼 | Bokugan | Sumi Ink Eye
    Ryan-S | zazenlibrarian.com

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