Ecodharma: An Alternative Last Chapter, written by Jundo

[Jundo]

Dear All,

I thank all of you for keeping this group going, aided by Kokuu and Doshin.

I ask a favor though: I have written an alternative ending to David Loy's fine book, and I ask you to read it, comment on it, to speak honestly about it. It is okay to call it madness.

It is radical, written in pain and frustration at what we are doing to this planet. I do not see a choice. Some may say that it smacks of 'science fiction,' but not according to what I read and follow regarding new developments in technology, and many experts I speak to (although there are many skeptics there too). At least, it has moved from the category of "impossible," to "perhaps possible," if not "likely."

Some may think my idea immoral, extreme, but to me, the true extreme immorality is to let things continue as they are, allowing children and countless others to suffer or die for our inaction and stubbornness. As well, at the end of the chapter I propose a way to undertake these measures purely voluntarily, by free choice without compulsion, with all due respect for libertarian values and civil liberties, even in a crazy world where countless people refuse a free vaccine to save their own lives.

Please have a read, and know that I am sincere in this. After having read David's book, just as you have, I do not see a better and more effective way. Extreme crisis may necessitate a few extreme steps.

... alas.

My chapter is this (PDF File, feel free to download):

An Unorthodox Strategy on Climate Change (and Generally Saving the World)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LyM...ew?usp=sharing

Gassho, J

STLah

[Kokuu]

That is so UNLESS (as I propose) a group of “White Hat” researchers and activists, “Good Guy” billionaires and political leaders head the “Black Hat” bandits and bad guys off at the pass, get their humanitarian hands on this technology and use it to devise and speed the evolution of good and caring human beings rather than half-human/half-machine marksmen and warehouse stockers. Let us make a world of concerned citizens and humanitarians rather than passive citizens and compliant consumers.

Jundo,

This for me, is a huge problem if it forms the underlying basis of your argument, and cannot be passed over in a paragraph as a given. How can we rely on billionaires, corporations and politicians to get out of a mess which they have played an enormous part of getting us into by encouraging consumerism, playing down the risks of fossil fuels, and feeding into our most base instincts to pit nations and groups against each other.

How do they suddenly become the good guys, and start to put the wellbeing of all ahead of their own power, greed and success as they always have done? This needs explaining.

If we take political leaders and billionaires coming good as an underlying assumption, why not just get them to make better policy in terms of the economy, energy production and sustainability? Under that scenario, many solutions become viable.

Although the solution you are offering seems to be technological, at its heart rests the same issue we are dealing with now - how do we get the people in power to make better decisions. Or, flipped on its head, how do we get people to vote for leaders who will make the hard decisions needed to give us a fighting chance rather than those who promise a fantasy that we can continue to live as we currently do?

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Jundo]

This for me, is a huge problem if it forms the underlying basis of your argument, and cannot be passed over in a paragraph as a given. How can we rely on billionaires, corporations and politicians to get out of a mess which they have played an enormous part of getting us into by encouraging consumerism, playing down the risks of fossil fuels, and feeding into our most base instincts to pit nations and groups against each other.

How do they suddenly become the good guys, and start to put the wellbeing of all ahead of their own power, greed and success as they always have done? This needs explaining.

It takes powerful people, money and capital, political power and influence to make large projects happen, and to counter-act other powerful people, with their money and capital, political power and influence. I assume that not all rich people are evil (it has been so throughout the history of Buddhism, from Emperor Asoka, the first great sponsor of Buddhism in India, through China and Japan to the United States: Upaya Zen Center would not exist were it not for investment by a Rockefeller https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=...feller&f=false). I do not believe that all rich people and social leaders are evil just because they are wealthy and powerful.

The Gates Foundation, whatever Bill's motives, saves millions of lives:

https://www.gatesfoundation.org/our-...health/malaria

It takes foundations with vast resources to fund these kinds of programs, not $5 contributions from ordinary Joes.

But no investment, no vote, no legislation will have lasting effect until we alter the human body and mind to moderate our most terrible drives.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jishin]

This for me, is a huge problem if it forms the underlying basis of your argument, and cannot be passed over in a paragraph as a given. How can we rely on billionaires, corporations and politicians to get out of a mess which they have played an enormous part of getting us into by encouraging consumerism, playing down the risks of fossil fuels, and feeding into our most base instincts to pit nations and groups against each other.

This is incorrect. You and you alone elect who is and who is not a Billionaire. If you are not happy with them vote with dollars or actual political votes.

How do they suddenly become the good guys, and start to put the wellbeing of all ahead of their own power, greed and success as they always have done? This needs explaining.

Again, you are blame shifting. You are responsible.

Although the solution you are offering seems to be technological, at its heart rests the same issue we are dealing with now - how do we get the people in power to make better decisions. Or, flipped on its head, how do we get people to vote for leaders who will make the hard decisions needed to give us a fighting chance rather than those who promise a fantasy that we can continue to live as we currently do?

I my opinion you don't. Humans are inherently good and evil but because of technology, the evil has outpaced the good. It's a matter of time before the world ceases to exist as we know it.

My 2 cents.

Jishin, Gassho, ST, LAH

[Dogukan]

Jundo,

Thanks for your alternative chapter. I appreciate your honesty - although the degree of honesty of your text makes it quite difficult to comment on it.

One can list numerous reservations as to why your proposal should not be implemented. You can list dozens of points as to why your proposal should be implemented without any delay. The grounds for people's acceptance & refusal will inevitably be controversial as the very basis of your proposal marks quite a radical shift from what we've known and acknowledged as "our world" for centuries.

First off, we are the results of a very long and extremely complex evolutionary process. If the moral basis of your proposal is based on the fact that there is no superiority of the human species over other beings (so we can change human genes), then what will prevent us from using every single means of modern science to make countless changes to make the world a perfect place, a heaven below, a Pure Land? Why we will find it enough to make some necessary changes to prevent calamities, genocides, and other cruelties while we are able to change everything? Why should we have to grieve when someone we love dies, for instance? Why should we shed tears? We can eliminate this as well, with some gene manipulations. Where are the exact ethical boundaries?

I also share Kokuu's concerns. Yes, all rich people are not naturally evil. Yet, money is not an infinite commodity and by simple math, if someone earns a single penny more than the others, it means that someone here or there earns a penny less. In the case of the big capitalists, these pennies are hard to calculate. Therefore, practically speaking, if your proposal will one day come to fruition, these genetic changes need to be made to the entire world population at the same time. Because even just a group of rich people whose "greed gene" hasn't been altered would be quite enough to destruct our "paradise lost" in less than a year - while we are dealing with an optimistic group of volunteers.

Well, these are my concerns. I am sure that you understand them, you must have asked these questions too. But if we're stuck in the dilemma of "genocide or genetic manipulation", or if the question is "die without a single drop of water in the next decades or let me inject you something" - well, the answer is clear. It's ironic, though, that after decades of speculations that AIs will humanise, we've come to the point where humans "artificialise".

After all, I enjoyed reading it. The text has some rather convincing parts. But... Well, you know. Can't say I share your enthusiasm. It still seems to me like a dystopia (regardless of its efficiency) rather than a joyful solution. However, radical solutions keep the human mind alive. Thank you for giving me something to think about.

Gassho, Doğukan.
Sat.

[Tairin]

Thank you for sharing this text with us Jundo. I am not surprised by the contents since you’ve posted similar proposals before here at Treeleaf. My thoughts are the same now as they were then. To me it is abhorrent to consider essentially drugging the masses to save ourselves. But I also wish people would stop assuming we humans can continue to live our destructive lifestyle and that science and technology will somehow save us. I wish that somehow we all could find the strength and resolve within us to do the right thing for the sake of ourselves, our children, and the planet. Ah if wishes were fishes….

As I think I’ve made clear in my comments through out the book chapters, I believe it is too late for us to solve this problem by resolve alone. We’ll never get enough people to give up their lifestyles. So yes as much as I dislike the idea I believe that the only way to save ourselves is by applying a multitude of solutions, natural and technology. I also think that we humans aren’t going to suddenly shed 2 million years of developed evolution in the next decade so we likely do need some sort of reprogramming.

I wish it wasn’t so.


Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Jundo]

Hi Dogukan,

I do not feel my vision to be dystopian, and quite the opposite: "Dystopian" is the "Mad Max" horror of hunger, violence, conflicts over resources on a polluted planet that will come if we fail to act, as described so well in David's book. Imagine how our present world would be if we could just radically reduce or eliminate many social problems such as child abuse, violent crime and prisons, drug abuse and alcoholism, homelessness and hunger (due to the upping of our inborn trait of empathy for others), reduction of excess consumption, many or most wars and much more, replacing the ability to allow others to suffer with the caring that one feels for one's own parent or child. It would not be a perfect world, but imagine how much nicer this world would be just without those problems alone.

... what will prevent us from using every single means of modern science to make countless changes to make the world a perfect place, a heaven below, a Pure Land? Why we will find it enough to make some necessary changes to prevent calamities, genocides, and other cruelties while we are able to change everything? Why should we have to grieve when someone we love dies, for instance? Why should we shed tears? We can eliminate this as well, with some gene manipulations. Where are the exact ethical boundaries?

Actually, it will be quite possible soon simply by someone plugging themselves to a virtual world in which the data input through all senses will be so fully replaced, and so detailed (perhaps in combination with drugs which enhance the reality of the experience), that it will be indistinguishable from how we experience this world now. It will last so long as the electricity keeps going. Some may choose such a life, like the Heavens of the Devas in traditional Buddhism in which every pleasure is granted. I believe that others will opt for a more ordinary world such as ours, with love and loss, ups and downs, yet with the extremes of suffering, greed, violence, crime, poverty etc. mitigated.

I also share Kokuu's concerns. Yes, all rich people are not naturally evil. Yet, money is not an infinite commodity and by simple math, if someone earns a single penny more than the others, it means that someone here or there earns a penny less. In the case of the big capitalists, these pennies are hard to calculate. Therefore, practically speaking, if your proposal will one day come to fruition, these genetic changes need to be made to the entire world population at the same time. Because even just a group of rich people whose "greed gene" hasn't been altered would be quite enough to destruct our "paradise lost" in less than a year - while we are dealing with an optimistic group of volunteers.

It is a question about which path will be dominant. I tend to feel that good will win out by simple math: If many of the world's people are made good, but some or many others remain bad, the bad may dominate for awhile due to their violence and aggression, and willingness to control others. For example, a Putin or Ted Bundy might not willingly subject themselves to this treatment. However, it is doubtful that the bad folks would change most of the good people in the world to bad, for then they would simply become competitors in evil. What the bad folks might seek to do is pacify the masses, enslave them or just turn them into docile citizens. However, hopefully a few underground groups will be able to keep working to turn the bad people good. (Frankly, when it comes to criminals like Putin or Ted Bundy, my interest in free choice and civil right to choose goes right out the window, and this treatment should be administered to Putin and Bundy even against their will). Once the bad people are turned good, they will no longer do bad because physically incapable, nor wish to go back to their former evil selves. New Putin and Bundy would be incapable of returning to their prior evil state. The good will soon come to overwhelmingly dominate, the few remaining baddies will be far outnumbered, and the slaves will be freed. Good has to win mathematically.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Geika]

This is a lot of speculation. I think we will have to see just how time and discovery actually treat the world.



Gassho
Sat, lah

[Ryumon]

This is incorrect. You and you alone elect who is and who is not a Billionaire. If you are not happy with them vote with dollars or actual political votes.

I strongly disagree. The deck is stacked, the game is rigged by those in power. It always has been.

Plus, you may live in a country that has free elections, but the majority of people in the world do not benefit from that.

Gassho,
Ryūmon (Kirk)
Sat

[Jishin]

I strongly disagree. The deck is stacked, the game is rigged by those in power. It always has been.

Plus, you may live in a country that has free elections, but the majority of people in the world do not benefit from that.

Gassho,
Ryūmon (Kirk)
Sat

It is a terrible thing to feel that others are responsible for your situation and you have no control over your life. Very depressing.

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

[Ryumon]

As just one example, I live in a country where, right now, a new prime minister is being chosen by 160,000 members of one political party. Tell me how I have any control? In the US, you have minority rule because of the electoral college, gerrymandering, and because of moneyed special interests.


Gassho,
Ryūmon (Kirk)
Sat

[Jishin]

As just one example, I live in a country where, right now, a new prime minister is being chosen by 160,000 members of one political party. Tell me how I have any control? In the US, you have minority rule because of the electoral college, gerrymandering, and because of moneyed special interests.


Gassho,
Ryūmon (Kirk)
Sat

Move.

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

[Bion]

Move.

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

Can’t argue with that one.

Sat Today

[Prashanth]

Move.

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

To steal an analogy:

Bring me a single mustard seed from a country where no inequality, no poverty, no climate change, no unfairness exists...


gassho.

sat

Sent from my GS190 using Tapatalk

[Ryumon]

Move.

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

That’s a clever, zenny one-word answer, but assuming that people have both the legal right to move to another country, and the finances to do so, is incredibly naive. Tell that to the billion or so Chinese that would like to live in a democracy.

Gassho,
Ryūmon (Kirk)
Sat

[Jishin]

That’s a clever, zenny one-word answer, but assuming that people have both the legal right to move to another country, and the finances to do so, is incredibly naive. Tell that to the billion or so Chinese that would like to live in a democracy.

Gassho,
Ryūmon (Kirk)
Sat

Whenever you go, there you are.

Move….

…your thoughts.

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

[Doshin]

I will not ask or request anyone to do so but I wish all of this discussion would have occurred outside of the EcoDharma section since it’s controversy has deflected thinking away from our efforts over the last 7 months of exploring the environmental challenges we face and how the dharma plays a role. I am sorry our efforts ended in this manner.


Doshin
St

[Jishin]

I will not ask or request anyone to do so but I wish all of this discussion would have occurred outside of the EcoDharma section since it’s controversy has deflected thinking away from our efforts over the last 7 months of exploring the environmental challenges we face and how the dharma plays a role. I am sorry our efforts ended in this manner.


Doshin
St

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

[Jundo]

I will not ask or request anyone to do so but I wish all of this discussion would have occurred outside of the EcoDharma section since it’s controversy has deflected thinking away from our efforts over the last 7 months of exploring the environmental challenges we face and how the dharma plays a role. I am sorry our efforts ended in this manner.


Doshin
St

Hi Doshin,

I am sorry if you feel that it is distracting, but I meant to offer some possible ways to address the very environmental disasters you are discussing, and I waited until you had finished the book so not to overly distract then. It is a Dharma take on solving those issues, although one that looks to 50 or 100 years in the future, not just 500 or 1000 years in the past.

I just posted this elsewhere today:

My apologies ...

I honestly believe that technology will have a major place in the future of Buddhism, right around the corner, and that science is the only realistic solution to a slew of social problems from violent crime to some environmental issues. Other issues that imperil the children, not to mention humanity as a whole, can only be solved when we change human nature to be less extremely violent, more caring, more generous, and that means changing our animal natures and biology within. I sincerely believe that if we have an effective means to do so (a big "if"), yet failed to do so, we are all complicit in the problem. My way of saying that is not graceful, and I apologize if my words are too strong.

I cannot help to talk about this in this Sangha, although it may offend some (hard to please everyone). I will try to be more graceful in how I do so, but the very mention of the topic will always disturb someone. No, I am not advocating fascism nor forcing anyone (except perhaps individuals who are convicted of crimes, just as we put them in prison now, and perhaps individuals who are clearly shown to have a propensity to rape, killing in anger and the like ... treating that as a medical condition, assuming we can clearly identify people who show a strong propensity to sexually abuse children, fly into violent rages, etc.) I believe it is fully in keeping with our Bodhisattva Vow to aid the sentient beings, preventing violence and bringing peace. I look just for a world of kinder, loving, more generous human beings who avoid to kill each other or to leave their brothers hungry and homeless in the streets.

If it offends some, and causes some to leave, well ... this is how religion and disagreements on social issues can be. I am sorry for the discomfort caused by these topics, but I do not chase anyone from here simply for disagreeing with my views, nor do I only invite those who agree. Buddhism cannot ignore coming technology, bio-engineering, robotics, developments in medical and brain science, and where this world is heading ... including whether there are good ways there to preserve this world and solve many of our problems.

I am sorry too, but I do find this discussion appropriate to the topic of gathering to sing about peace and harmony among humankind [and ending Global Warming].

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

PS - I am a lawyer, so I do speak with some perspective on our judicial and criminal justice systems from there. I am also a Buddhist teacher, so I can speak on these issues from there. I am not a scientist, but they need us "liberal arts" types to comment on the social and ethical issues of any coming technology they may (emphasis on "may") develop. I feel comfortable in doing so, and I will.

[Heiso]

Can’t argue with that one.

Sat Today

Well you can, you can argue it's not a terribly helpful comment, nor is it terribly kind but there you go.


So it seems this essay is discussing a transhumanist approach to tackling climate change. I'm not too well read on transhumanism but it seems there are two main areas for discussion. The ethical and the practical.

Judging from how I've seen this debate go elsewhere in the forum after the essay was cross-posted, I will steer clear of the ethical only to say I disagree.

As to the practical I also have my doubts. I share Kokuu's doubts about these white hat good guy billionaires. Let's not forget that in the last few years, while people died and lost their livelihoods to Covid, our richest men (yes, sadly all men) were sending themselves on pleasure flights to space.

I recognise that this essay was written in pain and frustration, but as Loy states in the book we've just read 'Our ends, no matter how noble, do not justify any means

Gassho,

Heiso

[Jishin]

Well you can, you can argue it's not a terribly helpful comment, nor is it terribly kind but there you go.


So it seems this essay is discussing a transhumanist approach to tackling climate change. I'm not too well read on transhumanism but it seems there are two main areas for discussion. The ethical and the practical.

Judging from how I've seen this debate go elsewhere in the forum after the essay was cross-posted, I will steer clear of the ethical only to say I disagree.

As to the practical I also have my doubts. I share Kokuu's doubts about these white hat good guy billionaires. Let's not forget that in the last few years, while people died and lost their livelihoods to Covid, our richest men (yes, sadly all men) were sending themselves on pleasure flights to space.

I recognise that this essay was written in pain and frustration, but as Loy states in the book we've just read 'Our ends, no matter how noble, do not justify any means

Gassho,

Heiso

What's wrong with moving?

Given that Kokuu is not and has never been a billionaire he lacks full perspective to opine on billionaires. On the other hand many billionaires have been dirt poor and have perspective to opine on a broader range of issues than me or you can.

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

[Bion]

Well you can, you can argue it's not a terribly helpful comment, nor is it terribly kind but there you go.

Well, to me a good advice is good advice, whether blunt, dry or unpleasant to hear. Most of the time we are so busy being emotional about stuff that we just can’t see beyond that. If anything, Jishin is pointing to a basic truth we conveniently choose to overlook: our decisions put in action ( our karma ) are the trigger for everything else that happens after that, whether controlled or not, direct or indirect, expected or not, pleasant or unpleasant.

Sat Today

[Ryumon]

many billionaires have been dirt poor

I really don’t understand billionaire fanbois.


Gassho,
Ryūmon (Kirk)
Sat

[Jishin]

I really don’t understand billionaire fanbois.


Gassho,
Ryūmon (Kirk)
Sat

That's an excellent start.

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

[Prashanth]

I really don’t understand billionaire fanbois.


Gassho,
Ryūmon (Kirk)
Sat

As is the aspiration, so is the role model.

Gassho.

sat.

Sent from my GS190 using Tapatalk

[Jishin]

As is the aspiration, so is the role model.

Gassho.

sat.

Sent from my GS190 using Tapatalk

How would a world without billionaires or capitalism look like?

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

[Jundo]

How would a world without billionaires or capitalism look like?

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

No comment on this one way or another, except that this appeared in my inbox yesterday. I really don't care how billionaires acquired their capital, by their own work or inheritance. The Buddha remind us that we all stand on the shoulders of each other, so there is no true solo "pulling oneself up by one's bootstraps." Also, he advised even the wealthy to be ethical and fair in their work and treatment of others, and to use their wealth well and for good.

tsuku.jpg

Gassho, J

STLah

[Bion]

No comment on this one way or another, except that this appeared in my inbox yesterday. I really don't care how billionaires acquired their capital, by their own work or inheritance. The Buddha remind us that we all stand on the shoulders of each other, so there is no true solo "pulling oneself up by one's bootstraps." Also, he advised even the wealthy to be ethical and fair in their work and treatment of others, and to use their wealth well and for good.

tsuku.jpg

Gassho, J

STLah

Didn’t we just spend months studying the Sutra of one filthy rich yet well respected layman called Vimalakirti? …


Sat Today

[Jundo]

Didn’t we just spend months studying the Sutra of one filthy rich yet well respected layman called Vimalakirti? …

Many of the Buddha's students and supporters were wealthy and powerful people who donated the land and other means to build the monasteries and feed the Sangha. Capital is a gift to be used for the greater weal. In South Asian Buddhism, the historical Buddha's advice to lay people is contained in words like these (Sigalovada Sutta):

The wise endowed with virtue
Shine forth like a burning fire,
Gathering wealth as bees do honey
And heaping it up like an ant hill.
Once wealth is accumulated,
Family and household life may follow.

By dividing wealth into four parts,
True friendships are bound;
One part should be enjoyed;
Two parts invested in business;
And the fourth set aside
Against future misfortunes."

...

"In five ways should workers and servants as the lower direction be respected by an employer: by allocating work according to aptitude, providing wages and food, looking after the sick, sharing special treats, and giving reasonable time off work.

"And, workers and servants so respected reciprocate with compassion in five ways: being willing to start early and finish late when necessary, taking only what is given, doing work well, and promoting a good reputation."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit...31.0.ksw0.html

This was continued in Mahayana Buddhism with the image of individuals such as the great Vimalakirti, the wealthy and wise lay person who bested in Wisdom all the Arhats and Bodhisattvas ...

At that time in the great city of Vaishali there was a rich man named Vimalakirti. Already in the past he had offered alms to immeasurable numbers of Buddhas, had deeply planted the roots of goodness, and had grasped the truth of birthlessness. Unhindered in his eloquence, able to disport himself with transcendental powers, he commanded full retention of the teachings and had attained the state of fearlessness. He had overcome the torments and ill will of the devil and entered deeply into the doctrine of the Law, proficient in the paramita of wisdom and a master in the employing of expedient means. He had successfully fulfilled his great vow and could clearly discern how the minds of others were tending. Moreover, he could distinguish whether their capacities were keen or obtuse. His mind was cleansed and purified through long practice of the Buddha Way, firm in its grasp of the Great Vehicle, and all his actions were well thought out and planned. He maintained the dignity and authority of a Buddha, and his mind was vast as the sea. All the Buddhas sighed with admiration, and he commanded the respect of the disciplies, of Indra, Brahma, and the Four Heavenly Kings.

Desiring to save others, he employed the excellent expedient of residing in Vaishali. His immeasurable riches he used to relieve the poor, his faultless observation of the precepts served as a reproach to those who would violate prohibitions. Through his restraint and forbearance he warned others against rage and anger, and his great assiduousness discouraged all thought of sloth and indolence. Concentrating his single mind in quiet meditation, he suppressed disordered thoughts; through firm and unwavering wisdom he overcame all that was not wise.

There have always been rich and powerful people. The most important question is how they earn and use those riches for good, and how they treat others. It does not matter whether that person is an ancient Indian king or a modern Silicon Valley investor.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Bion]

Many of the Buddha's students and supporters were wealthy and powerful people who donated the land and other means to build the monasteries and feed the Sangha. Capital is a gift to be used for the greater weal. In South Asian Buddhism, the historical Buddha's advice to lay people is contained words like these (Sigalovada Sutta):



This was continued in Mahayana Buddhism with the image of individuals such as the great Vimalakirti, the wealthy and wise lay person who bested in Wisdom all the Arhats and Bodhisattvas ...



There have always been rich and powerful people. The most important question is how they earn and use those riches for good, and how they treat others. It does not matter whether that person is an ancient Indian king or a modern Silicon Valley investor.

Gassho, J

STLah

That’s why I brought him up! Thank you! Who knows what Soto Zen would be like today, or if Treeleaf would exist had it not been for the money and influence of Yoshisige Hatano, who gave master Dogen the land to build Eiheiji on.

Sat Today

[Jishin]

No comment on this one way or another, except that this appeared in my inbox yesterday. I really don't care how billionaires acquired their capital, by their own work or inheritance. The Buddha remind us that we all stand on the shoulders of each other, so there is no true solo "pulling oneself up by one's bootstraps." Also, he advised even the wealthy to be ethical and fair in their work and treatment of others, and to use their wealth well and for good.

tsuku.jpg

Gassho, J

STLah

Money is a tool that all of us use. It is a fallacy to assume that each of us need a predetermined amount for our daily needs and no more or no less.

Greed is bad but it is the glue that keeps the world going. Without greed no one would work.

True communism has never been tried but I submit it would not work because of human nature. Greed would keep people from sharing equally.

Capitalism is not perfect but it is the system that works best. A byproduct of this system is accumulation of wealth by a lucky and talented few.

The capital of billionaires does not lay dormant. It works round the clock employing multitudes and decreasing suffering.

I find students of eastern philosophy frequently oblivious to the fact that capitalism is in fact the best system available to date based upon their misguided belief that socialism or communism is better. In theory socialism and communism are better but they ignore reality: humans are greedy and need material incentive to get out of bed. Look to history for guidance.

An American doctor who goes to school for 24 years and owes $400,000 at the end of training will require several luxury cars, 2 homes and multiple vacations per year just to keep from burning out and quitting her job. For her efforts she will demand at least $300,000 per year. If she does not quit her job at the end of her career she will have saved many lives and retire with $10,000,000 if savvy with her money.

Is $10,000,000 too much to have in the bank for one person? Apparently not because we don’t have enough doctors in the USA.

I think that next time we complain about someone having too much money we should try to walk in their shoes for a mile.

My wife and I are physicians and we drive Teslas. They are luxurious but are green energy. I am more than happy to contribute to Elon Musk’s 245 billion fortune as he is doing something very significant for the planet. For one, I arrive at work more refreshed and ready to see patients with the help of his products.

What can I say about Amazon? Without this wonderful company I wouldn’t be able to take care of my patients.

I invest heavily in Amazon and Tesla and in all kinds of other companies that do good work for me and for the world.

Again, I like to point out our propensity to project our faults onto others. There are always fingers pointing back when pointing fingers.

Jundo, you are a great teacher but god almighty there are some dense people around and I guess that is just who we are as humans.

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

[Dogukan]

Well, one can take the argument even further. Both Vimalakirti and Hatano were rich men in a different economic system, based mainly on the plantation, that is, slavery. So, what would Soto Zen be today if there were no slavery?

Gassho, Doğukan.
Sat.

[Tokan]

My goodness, this thread has certainly stimulated my brain more effectively than an electric electrode to the head designed to stop me being dualistic!

I had hoped that we (the royal we) would wake up, not just to climate change and xenophobia, but to the deeper issues that drive all of this in the first place. The billionaire toy maker gets rich because we buy $2 toys by the ship-load, then toss them into the land or sea, only to buy the next one and do the same. This is not who we are, but it seems that this is how we want to express ourselves. If we really believe in the wholeness or oneness of all things, differentiated in time or matter, then it should both matter and not-matter if humanity passes into galactic history, to be replaced one day by the next self-aware species. We are special, but we aren't that special. We received the gifts of consciousness, awareness, and a degree of self-determination, and it nows seems that we have squandered that. Though I still hold some hope for the future, we are moving too slow, pulling in two directions at once. Here in New Zealand, allegedly one of the 'greenest purest' places on earth, the government has just given the go ahead for further fossil fuel exploration because "there is insufficient evidence that the mining or extraction that may follow the exploration with have a significant impact on climate change". I was, quite simply, dumbfounded.

In my mind, it now seems that our only hope is to invest just as much in adaptive climate technology as in reversal of climate change. I'd love to see more windfarms, but too many people don't want them spoiling the view - HELLO! How about a wildfire or 1 in 1000 year flood spoiling your view? But this is how we behave. Great human suffering is ahead of us. I can only be faithful to my bodhisattva vows. The global adoption of Buddhism could make a difference as Nishijima Roshi suggested, but in reality just look at what Buddhism has become in some countries. Anything run by people can be corrupted. Now, global adoption of Treeleaf, now that would be a different matter, might make the forums a bit challenging though

Electro-convulsive therapy, implants to prevent epileptic seizures, pacemakers, and my father just had a form of chemotherapy that reprogrammed his immune system to not just kill the cancer, but to kill it everytime it rears its head. In mental health we give monthly injections to the more seriously ill to prevent illness, what if a chip in the brain could remove the need to have these injections? They'd never need see a psychiatrist again in their life. As always, the challenge is not the technology, but our use of it. If a person wished to consent to a radical new form of treatment then I believe they should have this choice. Governments forcing these changes on us? Not so sure given what just happened in the US.

One things for sure, I never thought I would live past the threat of nuclear war in the 70's and 80's, for humanity to be in the state it is in now. Yet there is still hope.


Gassho all, and respect for all opinions expressed.

Tokan (satlah)

[Naiko]

This is very interesting. Jundo, I can’t decide if your idea is impossibly optimistic (in your faith that humans could actually pull it off), or impossibly cynical (in that my teacher thinks humans are so flawed they must be drugged and/or genetically modified into good behavior!)..

I think there is a danger in placing hope in future solutions. I think this is humanity’s greatest strength-faith, hope, daring to imagine. It’s also our fatal flaw. We live for the future and always believe in tomorrow, like Scarlett O’Hara. What happens when we run out of tomorrows? We also mythologize the idea of a white hat wearing hero riding in to save the day. It’s more compelling to us than a story of many anonymous people all doing their part. It primes us to give up our power to a few. I agree with Kokuu’s skepticism of ‘white hat’ billionaires. They’re only out for themselves.

Sadly, I don’t think we have 50-100 years to work this out. We are 50-60 years behind in our response. We need to get to 45% of current emissions by 2040, but are projected to increase them by 14% or more. It’s a shame because solutions and technologies that could greatly ease our situation exist right now, and have existed for decades (or longer: electric vehicles existed over 100 years ago). What we do now, what we do next, matters.
Gassho,
Naiko
st

[Prashanth]

How would a world without billionaires or capitalism look like?

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

nobody said they shouldn't exist. Its just that when people aspire to be like them, they tend to forget or forgive many negatives too.
They should exist, and also should exist those who remind them that they can do bigger and better things to make the world a better place.

"Isms" don't make the world a better or worse place; people who stick to them do. So far, we are yet to come to an "ism" which is agreed by all and also does only good. Calling people "dense" just because they see something differently, isn't really selling anything. I'd rather be dense quite happily as long as I can sit quietly in that density and lightness of being.


gassho.

sat.

Sent from my GS190 using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

Well, one can take the argument even further. Both Vimalakirti and Hatano were rich men in a different economic system, based mainly on the plantation, that is, slavery. So, what would Soto Zen be today if there were no slavery?

Gassho, Doğukan.
Sat.

That is absolutely true, even many monasteries owned slaves, and there are rules in the Vinaya and temple regulations for their good treatment. Folks in modern times needs to realize that the old days were just different, old ... no matter how we judge social values from our current perspective. Social values do change, and we should be happy that some things have changed:

http://buddhism.lib.ntu.edu.tw/FULLT...misc570463.pdf

and

http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice....%20Slavery.pdf

Also, this is very interesting:

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t...e-sangha/19426

Of course, I fear that future folks will use this new technology to enslave the masses, and the "white hats" must work to prevent that! In a sense, it has already happened, as we are made passive slaves of consumerism, entranced by our phones and other entertainments, working in the factories to buy what the factories produce ... kept fat and docile.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jundo]

I think there is a danger in placing hope in future solutions.

Isn't much of Buddhism built on precisely that: the idea that enlightenment and salvation is bound to come in the future? And is not the Buddha the ultimate symbol of the man in the "white hat"?

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jishin]

nobody said they shouldn't exist. Its just that when people aspire to be like them, they tend to forget or forgive many negatives too.
They should exist, and also should exist those who remind them that they can do bigger and better things to make the world a better place.

"Isms" don't make the world a better or worse place; people who stick to them do. So far, we are yet to come to an "ism" which is agreed by all and also does only good. Calling people "dense" just because they see something differently, isn't really selling anything. I'd rather be dense quite happily as long as I can sit quietly in that density and lightness of being.


gassho.

sat.

Sent from my GS190 using Tapatalk

That's good. Then say what you mean: billionaires should exist, are good and are necessary.

If I understand you correctly, we should remind billionaires how to run their lifes and businesses? Say this sentence out loud and listen to yourself saying it so you can hear how crazy it sounds.

If you see the Buddha, please kill him. You are terribly attached to Buddha.

I am terribly deluded but I know so. Do you know this about yourself?

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

[Jundo]

... we should remind billionaires how to run their lifes and businesses?

Yes, it is called the law ... laws to prevent labor, environmental, tax evasion and countless other abuses. Sadly, many of these laws are too weak right now, or do not work well across international borders.

And also, many of the values of excess consumption and luxury, materialism and selfishness represented by some of their lifestyles should not be as celebrated.

Gassho, J

STlah

[Naiko]

Isn't much of Buddhism built on precisely that: the idea that enlightenment and salvation is bound to come in the future? And is not the Buddha the ultimate symbol of the man in the "white hat"?

Gassho, J

STLah

Well, I don’t know. I thought Buddhanature/enlightenment is here now and that Buddha said we are responsible for ourselves or we kill the Buddha when we meet him/her/they?
Gassho,
Naiko
st

[Jundo]

I think that this video may be interesting, although outside the Zen tradition. It describes, perhaps, the "baseline" on simplicity of austerity by the truly strict monk, and what they "need" for life, and do not need in order to be free of attachments.

Now, a caution: This was never the path for all people, and lay folks were not expected to live a life of such extremes. However, even so, lay folks were encouraged to lead a lifestyle as simple, bare bone, non-attached (not the same as being detached, by the way, especially in family life) and austere as possible. In fact, is this not a lesson too regarding consumerism and the environment, regarding how we could all live more simply, consuming less?

Are not these practices, as well, 2000 year old "technology" to change the human heart and mind?

Again, I am in -no way- encouraging most people to live like this. I would not choose such way, nor do I feel it is the best way to live or most healthful for most, or for society as a whole. (In fact, the practice extremes described in this video ... such as not reclining to sleep, or not accepting a second helping of food ... were/are considered too extreme, and rejected, even by most South Asian monks, and likely by the Buddha, so the video describes a minority, radical view. However, even "ordinary" monks are not to live extravagantly, even if they are allowed to accept a gift robe rather than one literally made of rags.)

Finally, I think one can disregard the very literal depictions of rebirth and various wonderous mental powers described in the video. However, the basic premise that being non-attached to desires, and living simply with few and moderate needs, remains at the heart of Buddhism and its view of liberation ... even in the Zen schools.

Gassho, J

STLah

Sorry to run long

[Jishin]

Yes, it is called the law ... laws to prevent labor, environmental, tax evasion and countless other abuses. Sadly, many of these laws are too weak right now, or do not work well across international borders.

And also, many of the values of excess consumption and luxury, materialism and selfishness represented by some of their lifestyles should not be as celebrated.

Gassho, J

STlah

Abuse is something humans are good at. Why single out the rich?

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

[Jundo]

Abuse is something humans are good at. Why single out the rich?

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

Nobody should abuse others, or themselves. That includes the poor if abusing in poor way, and the rich if they abuse in rich ways.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jishin]

Nobody should abuse others, or themselves. That includes the poor if abusing in poor way, and the rich if they abuse in rich ways.

Gassho, J

STLah

I agree with this this wholeheartedly. The middle way. I just wish that students of eastern philosophy weren’t so quick to judge a person based upon their net worth.

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

[Prashanth]

That's good. Then say what you mean: billionaires should exist, are good and are necessary.

If I understand you correctly, we should remind billionaires how to run their lifes and businesses? Say this sentence out loud and listen to yourself saying it so you can hear how crazy it sounds.

If you see the Buddha, please kill him. You are terribly attached to Buddha.

I am terribly deluded but I know so. Do you know this about yourself?

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

May I humbly ask why are you chastising us this way for a topic which is really not that consequential which way who agrees on? These are opinions after all, and by their nature they evolve or get corrected as time passes and experience increases.

I am quite sad at how the tone of conversations in this forum has changed in the last two weeks.

Really sad. I will take a break now from conversations for some time and just sit. Life has bigger challenges than defending opinions.

Gassho.

sat.

Sent from my GS190 using Tapatalk

[Tokan]

Yep - I'm not a referee around here, but I agree the tone of this thread is not our usual friendly way, let's remember we are here to support each others practice - lord knows we have enough challenges on our own without feeling uncomfortable here. May we all realise the enlightened way together!

Gassho, Tokan (satlah)

[Jishin]

May I humbly ask why are you chastising us this way for a topic which is really not that consequential which way who agrees on? These are opinions after all, and by their nature they evolve or get corrected as time passes and experience increases.

I am quite sad at how the tone of conversations in this forum has changed in the last two weeks.

Really sad. I will take a break now from conversations for some time and just sit. Life has bigger challenges than defending opinions.

Gassho.

sat.

Sent from my GS190 using Tapatalk

The discussion of the unfair treatment of a class of citizens is extremely pertinent. I find it appalling that students of eastern philosophy are so willing to crucify this minority without understanding their situation better.

I am sorry you find this discussion difficult.

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

[Jundo]

Let's keep it friendly and civil, even if these are difficult topics. Thank you.

We don't usually discuss politics and social policy in the Sangha, but since the issue is Global Warming, there is a bit more leeway here to do so.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[bayamo]

The discussion of the unfair treatment of a class of citizens is extremely pertinent. I find it appalling that students of eastern philosophy are so willing to crucify this minority without understanding their situation better.

I am sorry you find this discussion difficult.

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

well said... it's always easier to find a group of people to blame for problems and make them the scapegoat instead of looking at ones conduct and culpability in the current state of things...
#sattoday

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[Meian]

I really don't understand jew fanbois. I really don't understand immigrant fanbois. I really don't understand black fanbois.
Is my comment any different than yours?

Targeting one's racial, religious, and national identity (etc.) is racist, bigoted, and discriminatory.

I've stayed quiet due to the growing tensions here -- but I must speak on this.

It has already been established that billionaires come from all backgrounds, and that wealth itself is not evil -- how it is used (or not) sometimes is.

What this thread has degenerated to is not what we're about here. This is not who/what Treeleaf is, and never has been.

Please *stop* -- we're not a social media forum to one-up each other. We're a Soto Zen sangha that is *global* and devoted to practice -- One humanity learning The Way.

The Precepts apply here also -- they apply everywhere.

My apologies for many words.

Gassho, meian stlh
(who needs to rest)