Dogen about anger and how to deal and practice with rage?

[Slav]

Hello, Jundo-san and sangha, can you please point to teaching Dogen about anger and how to deal and practice with rage?

[Jundo]

Hi Slav,

Well, this is a good question, really. He does not say so much directly.

On the other hand, ALL his teachings are about accepting life, flowing with life, being whole with life ... in which case, it is not so easy for us to get angry.

He did write this:

An ancient saying goes, “Even though a wise person’s power is greater than that of an ox, the wise will not fight with the ox.” Although you might believe that your wisdom and abilities are greater than someone else’s, you should not take pleasure in disputing with them. What is more, do not subject others to abuse with harsh words, or glare at them with angry looks. … Please take this to heart and consider it closely as a student of Buddhism. If you are really determined to be diligent in your efforts to practice the Way, what time do you have to waste by arguing with other people? In the end, what good does it do you or them? This is so when arguing about Buddhist teachings, and even more so when fighting about worldly matters. … Though you are convinced that you have an understanding of the Dharma that can defeat others, do not argue and try to best them. Of course, if a sincere student of Buddhism asks you something about the Dharma, do help them by answering and explaining. However, even then, be reticent by waiting to answer until asked three times. Speak neither in excess, nor block up your mouth. (SZ 5-7)

.

There is an ancient saying, “Reflect thrice, then speak.” The meaning is that we should pause and consider three times before saying something or taking some action … Only then, if it still seems good to do so, one should speak or act. In fact, the sages of China meant this “three times” to mean just “many times.” We should consider before we speak, reflect before we act. We should only say or do what still appears wise only then. Zen monks should have this view. What we think or say may lead to unexpected harms, so we had best reflect first as to whether it is in keeping with the Buddha Way, bringing benefit to oneself and to other people. Of course, if it is something worthwhile, then do and say so. If a practitioner holds such attitude, they will never deviate from the way of Buddha during their entire lifetime. (SZ 4-10)



Do not scold or criticize other monks using harsh words. Do not become angry at them, nor hurl abuse at them carelessly, even in cases where someone is evil or their actions improper. … As an abbot or high ranked priest, master or teacher, one has to correct and instruct one’s students with a compassion and concern when they are wrong. Even when one must do so by slapping those who need to be slapped, chastising those who must be chastised, do not utter words filled with contempt, nor allow one’s heart to give rise to feelings of hate.

I would add that the best practical advice I know when the mind gets very angry is ... breathe, breathe, breathe ... until it settles down.

Try to remember that this universe, Samsara, is often disappointing and frustrating ... and that is just what it is sometimes! It is okay and natural in life to be disappointed and frustrated a bit, but do not "buy what the brain is selling," and do not play its game, when it wants to run to excessive disappointment, frustration and thus anger.

Others here may have their own good advice too.

By the way, if anger/rage is a real issue in someone's life, not just a temporary and controllable thing, then it is very much advised and recommended by me to seek professional guidance from a mental health professional expert in such issues. Such counselling can go hand-in-hand with Zazen (which is very good medicine in facing Samsara's disappointment and frustrations with greater equanimity).

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

Sorry to run long

[Jundo]

Hello, Jundo-san and sangha, can you please point to teaching Dogen about anger and how to deal and practice with rage?

By the way, Chiso, would you mind to put a a human face photo to accompany your posts? It helps us keep things human around here.

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...n-Avatar-Photo

Thank you. Let's us look each other in the eyes more. For some strange reasons, the software designers made the avatar and profile pictures separate. Also, would you mind to sign a human name or your Dharma Name from Jukai, as it also makes things a bit more human.

Finally, you have been a member here for quite some time, so we do ask this too:

SatToday - Make sure you have sat before joining in forum chat!
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...-forum-chat%21

I hope that does not make you angry!

Thank you!

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Ekai]

I like what Dogen says about anger. Difficult to practice though. My adult son has anger issues due to many different issues. While he has improved over the last year, he still gets combative at times. I find it difficult to remain calm when he is angry and yelling at me. I don't always remain calm and respond harshly in a knee jerk defensive reaction. When I respond in anger, it makes matters much worse and harsh words are spoken. It results in pain for both of us. When I remain calm and wait until he is calm to talk to him about it, we have a heart to heart discussion which is much more productive and healing. However, it's hard and I don't always follow that method. But I will keep trying and breathing a few times first.

Gassho,
Ekai

SAT

[Prashanth]

Thank you, Jundo. This is very helpful advice.

From my own "anger games" I noticed that I get angry when I am confronted with three things: repressed feelings being triggered, fear, and projection.

I am continuing to take your advice sometime back to not direct this anger on a particular person or group. Each time I sense I am projecting it on someone, I remember your words and become silent first until I can focus on the issue again.

I am working on these every day, but ...well.

Gassho.

sat

Sent from my GS190 using Tapatalk

[Anchi]

Thank you, Jundo. This is good advice.

But it is ok to feel that way, just be present with it, understand that the more we accept the conditions of this life, the easier it is on us.
The emotions arise and pass, as well as thoughts and sensations.

Buddha is so wise- desire and anger keeps this unending destructive cycle going. Only way is to realize this and change one's attitude without pride, let things be.

Dharma is practical- unless one applies and practices, the mind can never change.
''Without internal peace'', it's hard to be happy with any amount of wealth or ach.

Apologies for running long.

Gassho
Anchi

[Koushi]

Thank you Jundo, all, for the advice and reflection.

For me, much like anxiety, the lightbulb moment for anger occurred when I realized that it was not something that could be entirely "removed" from life/myself. Again, like anxiety, there is a biological reason we experience and feel anger—the issue is when the feelings are inwardly or outwardly expressed in a non-beneficial manner.

Anxiety/panic can save me in a dangerous situation—and in terms of anger, I remember this from HHDL:

Anger that is motivated by compassion or a desire to correct social injustice, and does not seek to harm the other person, is a good anger that is worth having.

The key being does not seek to harm the other person [or oneself]. Like it's been said before me, accepting that it will arise, and letting it go just the same, is the only way I see it can be properly managed—just like anxiety. And like Jundo said, if it's too much to do that, or a true problem, seeking professional help is best.

Sorry for running long,

Gassho,
Koushi
STLaH

[Gareth]

There are some nice talks by Thich Nhat Hanh on anger.

Gassho,
Gareth

Sat today, Lah

[Slav]

Thank you everybody for sharing.
Gassho,
Slav.

Sat today, Lah

[Tairin]

Tairin
Sat today and lah

[StoBird]

My personal opinion is that anger is a temporary madness. Remember that anger hurts yourself more than what angers you. Do not confuse the initial impression of anger with the thoughts and beliefs that keep anger going for an unhealthy period of time. The thoughts and beliefs that keep it going are centered around the desire that someone or something get what they deserve because they did something that doesn't agree with your values. The initial impression (is sometimes the close cousin of anger: fear) of anger is involuntary and abates rather quickly if we don't keep it going.

When we get angry the mind narrows and focuses onto what angers it and becomes myopic, so one of the best things to do is open up, broaden perspective and practice what Dogen calls "magnanimous mind," widen perspective as much as possible (maybe through a quick Zazen session). Remember that we are human and we and the person we are angry with may die today or tomorrow. Note that in five years this probably won't anger you nearly as much, and what is the difference between then and now but time?

(Sorry to run long)

Gassho,
Tom

Sat

[Seibu]

Thank you Slav for starting this topic. Thank you Jundo for your answer

Gassho,
Seibu
Sattoday/lah

[Heiso]

Yes, thanks Slav, this has been a useful topic to ponder. And thank you everyone for your comments, I found Koushi's particularly interesting.

Gassho,

Heiso

StLah

[Choboku]

My addition to this would be that anger can be beneficial, when it is directed in a just manner; anger can feel good as well, and I find it easy to be seduced by it. However, anger is a hot coal; it grows hotter and hotter and can start a fire when it is fed and nurtured. It is normal to feel it, but it is important to not give in to it. As previously said here, breathe in, watch it rise, breathe out, watch it fall (easier said than done, I know).

Sorry to go long. I hope you're well and if I overstepped, I'm sorry.

Gassho,
Choboku

Sat Today

[SaijMW]

Thank you for this discussion. This is good information especially when dealing with a very frustraing, rebellious 16-year-old son! For me, stepping back is very hard, and sometimes even when I address the situation peacefully, this tends to anger him more. so challenging.

Gassho, Saij
SAT

[SaijMW]

Thank you for this discussion. This is good information especially when dealing with a very frustraing, rebellious 16-year-old son! For me, stepping back is very hard, and sometimes even when I address the situation peacefully, this tends to anger him more. so challenging.

Gassho, Saij
SAT

[Gareth]

Thank you for this discussion. This is good information especially when dealing with a very frustraing, rebellious 16-year-old son! For me, stepping back is very hard, and sometimes even when I address the situation peacefully, this tends to anger him more. so challenging.

Gassho, Saij
SAT

Teenagers can be a real challenge! I find it helps to remind myself, before I make any request, that there probably won’t be a simple “yes Dad that is no problem, I am happy to do or not to do that thing”.

Gassho,
Gareth

Sat today, Lah