Unsatisfactory nature of career achievement

[noz]

Hi all, in college I decided (or felt peer pressure to decide) to achieve career success and ensure I'd “leave my legacy on the world.” With a lot of striving, I have gotten pretty much everything I could have wanted: a degree, a post-graduate degree in my field, publications, recognition from family and friends for my “accomplishments.”

I began sitting zazen over 5 years ago, and although I know I am not supposed to sit with any mind toward “better” or “worse,” my life is surely “better” since I started to sit. In the sense that I go easier on myself now. I’m not quite as caught up in the eight worldly winds as I used to be. (Which should tell you something about how I used to be!!)

With the practice though, my desire for achievement has gone way, way down. And I'm kind of scared by this. Even though, day to day, I feel more at peace.

But I still feel afraid to accept that no matter how many gold stars I collect, it won't “matter.” (Especially "in the long run," considering the impermanent nature of things.)

I should also say that yesterday I had a publication, but holding the magazine in my hands, I felt absolutely nothing. I felt like I should feel something, but I didn’t really feel anything. (Except maybe disappointment at not feeling more.)

I know I'm not the first human to ask "why do anything?" but I'm feeling a bit down today and wanted to hear if others had experienced this unsatisfactory feeling following supposed "achievement." And, what did you do afterward? Did you keep pursuing your work/passion project? Or did you let it go when it wasn't fulfilling? If you let it go, how did that feel and what happened afterward?

Very sorry for going so long!

Gassho
SatToday/LAH

[Rich]

Am approaching 75 and continue to work, play and achieve. But am not so attached to the results and often things turn out out differently than planned. It’s all good. Just believe in youself 100% . Also some time doing nothing is ok

Sat/lah


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[Jakuden]

This is such a good question ! As Rich said, hold the attachment to your former concept of success lightly: as you are discovering, there is nothing there that’s real to be held. But it is possible to find great joy in the incredible success you have achieved in being alive as a human being and living through each moment, including this one right now reading this. Thank you for your practice, which benefits all And congratulations on your publication… it is still important to get up from the cushion and benefit all beings, as you are doing.

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


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[Prashanth]

If you are publishing, you are communicating the ongoing outcome of your knowledge-pursuit.
If this is the only purpose, what better goal can there be?
As a publisher (and an ex-researcher) I can see the "currency-value" of a publication, but I also meet many people who genuinely work in the pursuit of knowledge, and it is such a joy and inspiration to see and work with them no matter whether the publication "makes it". For me, every day I work with such people is a worthy substitute to all the disappointments I have with my own uneventful pursuits.

Such a pursuit of knowledge could be compatible with everything we try to follow here.

Just my 2 grains.

Sorry to run long.

Gassho.

Sat.

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[Kokuu]

Hi Noz

I was/am similar to you in achieving graduate and postgraduate degrees and then being successful as an academic scientist, although that was cut short by illness. Anyway, even though I didn't practice then, I found that the excitement of publication was a diminishing return.

Similarly, I have more recently written and published haiku poems, and the gloss of being published wore off after a while. It is often usual to experience somewhat the same with regards to Zen practice.

I can imagine that the dropping away of achievement seems worrying, as you wonder how you are going to motivate yourself to your career. However, as an alternative to relying on the sense of achievement as a dopamine hit, instead maybe consider connecting to what drove you to choose your particular field in the first place.

Was it just to achieve? I am betting there was a deeper love and passion there.

When I write haiku now, it is for the joy of it rather than to publish. Likewise, my Zen practice exists because I like sitting and studying dharma. There does not have to be any achievement there. If Jundo disrobed me tomorrow, I cannot say I wouldn't be disappointed, but I would continue practicing pretty much the same. It is not done to achieve.

Anyway, long story short, I think that attainment can be an unhealthy reason to pursue things, although not bad in and of itself. Connecting to a deeper motivation can, in my experience, feel less tenuous, although even that may be subject to ups and downs.

Apologies for length.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Nengei]

Please excuse any unintended appearance that I am trying to teach or explain anything. I am a novice priest, and have no depth of knowledge or qualifications for teaching Zen.

For me, there is frequently a big let-down at the conclusion of a project. I put myself into my work strongly and emotionally, and there may be recognition and even accolades at the end. But there is a big hole where what was so intense in my world is now gone. This improved for me when I started having multiple projects in progress, and my brain is always reading out for the next one. It may be because what I really love is the process, the doing, and when that is over I am a little lost.

I recognize your first paragraph, and in fact, I could have written it. That thing you are looking for, which inward you thinks will come from that next degree, that next success, or that job... not so much. What you are seeking comes from within, finding your self-respect, self-value, and peace with who you are.

Gassho,
遜道念芸 Nengei
Sat today. LAH.

[Bion]

I was a man with huge dreams of success. I worked hard for it, sacrificed and suffered for that goal and then one day I saw the bigger picture, once zazen and dharma finally soaked up my bones and accomplishments started to look less and less like accomplishments.
Professionally I have no huge aspirations nowadays, but to make it from one month to the other with bills paid, food in the fridge, spare time to spend on things that truly matter and if anything I am just continuously grateful for the wonderful people who hire me and spend their hard earned money on my work, allowing me to earn a living.
My barometer for success has changed, and I measure it now in kind words said to people, in smiles I can put on others’ faces, in memories I can create for others, in time offered for the benefit of others and in the ease of my sleep at night. None of that was a thing when I was chasing success. Not a day goes by that I don’t feel grateful for becoming this person and not needing to feel validated by anyone. Success, in the broadly known sense, is absolutely not a guarantee for a good life and a peaceful mind.

Sorry for the length.

Sat Today

[Shōnin Risa Bear]

There is nowhere to stand that is not in some sense everywhere (as well as also nowhere). So what is to be achieved?

The whole universe in all ten directions is a mendicant monk’s Eye.

-- Changsha Zhenlang, quoted by Dogen

gassho
doyu shonin, some sit, some lah

[Jundo]

Please recall that Zen and Buddhism are not about having no goals whatsoever.

The Buddha and Dogen were achievers, with projects and Sangha to build, teachings to develop and offer. They did not just sit around on their rumps.

However, in this wise-crazy Zen way, we can learn to drop THOROUGHLY all goals and need for change and attaining AND SIMULTANEOUSLY retain (without overly clutching) and work hard and diligently toward our goals and projects to work improvements ALL AT ONCE ... as if encountering the world both ways at once as one. Goals and goals thoroughly dropped in the same moment!

There is nothing lacking, no work to be done, nothing in need of solving, not one thing more in need of achieving AND holes to fill, work to be done, problems to solve, targets to achieve ALL AS TWO FACES OF THE SAME NO SIDED COIN. Peace does not require passivity. Peace can be known even as we actively strive and energetically struggle to deal with all life's broken pieces. Be at peace when getting a gold star, be at peace when not getting a gold star ... do not be addicted and dependent on getting gold stars ... but, at the same time, no reason not to work hard and pick up some meaningful gold stars.

Not every project need give one a profound sense of achievement (maybe a mild sense of relief is enough for some), but there is nothing wrong with taking joy in some that are meaningful to you. (I am sure that Dogen felt some joy the day that the doors finally opened on his Eiheiji monastery after years of planning.)

So, work your plan, write your books, build your towers, invent your inventions ... but clutch lightly to each, knowing that some will not work out, some will, some will be attained and some will flop in the dirt. You can retain your desire for achievements, but in moderation, without being tied up in them. At the same time, know that there is absolutely nothing done or in need of doing, not in the least, not even one drop ... even as you do and keep pushing on! Reaching the top of the mountain, falling down the mountain, all the same Buddha mountain. Nonetheless, we can continue walking up the mountain, enjoying the scenery along the way, each step by step its own arrival.

Capiche?

Gassho, Jundo
STLah

Sorry to run long

PS -

Am approaching 75 and continue to work, play and achieve. But am not so attached to the results and often things turn out out differently than planned. It’s all good. Just believe in youself 100% . Also some time doing nothing is ok

This advice comes from an old Zen fellow who still plays hockey at age 75! That's him here, to the right of the goalie. Talk about a man with "goals"

65_tier_2_large.JPG

[Ugrok]

Hi !

Interesting question, as i was (and still am) in the exact same position. When i did my thesis, i struggled to get it to the end. I thought "when this will be done, all will be okay". It wasn't ! Then it was all about getting the tenure position at the university. I thought, once i'm there, i'll be forever okay. Well, no.

I practiced zazen going through all this career stuff, and i also saw colleagues whose whole life is about being published, again and again, striving for "success", and being a bit bitter because they are not satisfied.

Nowadays i changed my perspective a lot. My job, teaching, writing scientific articles, being published, etc., is just A GAME. I do it BECAUSE IT'S FUN TO DO IT WHEN I DO IT. And that's all. I begin to really drop all ideas of success, of being well known, of being better than my colleagues. It's hard because the academic system wants you to perform this way. But now that i have a job in which i can't be fired, i just try to have fun with it and not think about "what good is it for", "what will it bring to my career", etc. It's all pointless ; what matters is what you do when you do it ; and if you have fun doing it, you will produce good stuff anyway and be a nice person to be around.

I would advise listening to the conference by Grothendieck about research, fun and what the system does to it. He was a genius mathematician who chose to retire from research (which is a bit sad) but he makes a few interesting points about the topic of this discussion. I only have the link in french, maybe you can find it with subtitles.



My 2 universitary cents,

Gassho,
Uggy
Sat today
LAH

[Ryumon]

When the universe collapses, none of this will matter. However, until then, it will. Depending on your work, you may be able to help other grow and learn, or your work may only have a minor effect in a huge company. I understand the desire of researchers to discover things that can change the world, but they are often in an environment where actual time for discoveries is limited. I know a scientist who spends so much time writing grants that there isn't a lot to do real science.

I've had thoughts of writing a novel or six, but every now and then I realize that there are so many books out there, that it's rare that any book makes a difference. So I get on with my daily grind, trying to ensure that, one day, I will have enough money to retire.

Gassho,

Ryūmon (Kirk)

sat

[Rich]

Thanks Jundo. Haven’t seen that pic in a long time

Sat/lah


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[Bion]

When the universe collapses, none of this will matter. However, until then, it will. Depending on your work, you may be able to help other grow and learn, or your work may only have a minor effect in a huge company. I understand the desire of researchers to discover things that can change the world, but they are often in an environment where actual time for discoveries is limited. I know a scientist who spends so much time writing grants that there isn't a lot to do real science.

I've had thoughts of writing a novel or six, but every now and then I realize that there are so many books out there, that it's rare that any book makes a difference. So I get on with my daily grind, trying to ensure that, one day, I will have enough money to retire.

Gassho,

Ryūmon (Kirk)

sat

Fun fact: the Universe will not collapse, but rather expand forever.

Sat Today

[Kokuu]

Fun fact: the Universe will not collapse, but rather expand forever.

Some physicists beg to differ...

https://www.sciencealert.com/the-uni...emarkably-soon

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Bion]

Some physicists beg to differ...

https://www.sciencealert.com/the-uni...emarkably-soon

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

Yeah, and some say the opposite. Saw DeGrasse Tyson explain this the other day and he’s in the expand forever team. I however care very little though I can imagine more than a few people losing sleep over the fate of everything ..

Sat Today

[Prashanth]

Yeah, and some say the opposite. Saw DeGrasse Tyson explain this the other day and he’s in the expand forever team. I however care very little though I can imagine more than a few people losing sleep over the fate of everything ..

Sat Today

...and the Universe doesn't care whether we think it expands or collapses or even know what it is and what it is not. .

Gassho.

Sat.

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[Bion]

...and the Universe doesn't care whether we think it expands or collapses or even know what it is and what it is not. .

Gassho.

Sat.

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Well, if IT expands, WE expand and if WE collapse, IT collapses No separation.

Sat Today

[Prashanth]

Well, if IT expands, WE expand and if WE collapse, IT collapses No separation.

Sat Today

Then I prefer IT SITS!!

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[Koushi]

Like most here, I started my career 20 years ago (let alone personal dreams before that) with goals in mind that I thought would bring myself happiness. I've made a lot of money, I've lost a lot of money. I've had a lot of jobs, I've lost a lot of jobs. Like everything else around us, I.T. and corporate America has been a great teacher of impermanence and change.

Nowadays, I don't have much in the way of personal career goals. Instead, I show up to work with only the idea in mind that I'm going to help people today. If that means doing my job expertly, that's what I do. If that means helping customers, that's what I do. If that means training others and helping them achieve their dreams and goals—that's what I do. Then I clock out and continue looking for areas to help. Surprisingly, this attitude has led to raises, promotions, and seeing my teammates all grow and move to better things.

When I was focused solely on my own accomplishments and standing, I was perpetually unhappy, burnt out, and depressed. Being of help to others, however, keeps things steady. Is there a point to any of this? Perhaps not. But I think helping others along the way is just as sweet as anything else.

Sorry for running long,

Gassho,
Koushi
STLaH

[Kokuu]

Nowadays, I don't have much in the way of personal career goals. Instead, I show up to work with only the idea in mind that I'm going to help people today. If that means doing my job expertly, that's what I do. If that means helping customers, that's what I do. If that means training others and helping them achieve their dreams and goals—that's what I do. Then I clock out and continue looking for areas to help. Surprisingly, this attitude has led to raises, promotions, and seeing my teammates all grow and move to better things.

[Jundo]

Well, if IT expands, WE expand and if WE collapse, IT collapses No separation.

Sat Today

In fact, the "Zen of Everything" episode Kirk and I are recording tonight is about extra-ordinary insights into the universe through Buddhism, who we are in the universe, and the consistency of such insights with science. Give it a listen on Friday. The universe may be listening to it with your ears.

Gassho, J

[Bion]

In fact, the "Zen of Everything" episode Kirk and I are recording tonight is about extra-ordinary insights into the universe through Buddhism, who we are in the universe, and the consistency of such insights with science. Give it a listen on Friday. The universe may be listening to it with your ears.

Gassho, J

Oooooh .. Sounds intriguing enough! I will do!

Sat Today

[Thomas M]

Hi,

Having fun, playing with ideas, it is essential to cultivate open inquiry and constructive disagreement, and to avoid being eaten by the publishing circus and the vanity fair of academia. Grothendieck raised some interesting points, but things are in the way they are. Have fun and do not take it too seriously, play with ideas and something useful may come out of it. Homo ludens by Johan Huizinga is an interesting book on playful human activity.

Gassho,
Thomas
Sat today

[Jundo]

I recently sent this to my son, who is choosing a college major. It seems to make sense:

As college graduates, you'll likely be joining a class of people who describe their work using words like "passion," "love" and "authenticity." And you may be tempted by companies inviting you to bring what they'll call your "whole self" to work.

As I learned in my study of Silicon Valley work culture, it starts with giving you a paycheck. Soon they will give you a community. They'll try to shape your identity and offer you a purpose, imbuing every day with the sense you are not working for a paycheck but to make the world a better place.

To be sure, if you follow this path, you'll soon be in love with your work; body, mind, heart and soul. No other social institution will work so hard to earn your love as your workplace. And if you don't love your work, or believe in it, many of those around you will do or say things to make you feel like a loser.

But Gen Zers, don't believe the hype. Let the Millennials wallow (or degenerate) in their love-work fest. You've got to learn to love smarter. Because even though your workplace may be promising to develop your whole self, its goal isn't to help you. It's to optimize your personality, so you give everything inside you to expanding its profits.

So, ignore those exhortations to do what you love. It was fresh advice 20 years ago. Today, professionals' problems come not from failing to love work, but from loving work too much.
https://us.cnn.com/2022/06/04/opinio...hen/index.html

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jundo]

I recently sent this to my son, who is choosing a college major. It seems to make sense:

As college graduates, you'll likely be joining a class of people who describe their work using words like "passion," "love" and "authenticity." And you may be tempted by companies inviting you to bring what they'll call your "whole self" to work.

As I learned in my study of Silicon Valley work culture, it starts with giving you a paycheck. Soon they will give you a community. They'll try to shape your identity and offer you a purpose, imbuing every day with the sense you are not working for a paycheck but to make the world a better place.

To be sure, if you follow this path, you'll soon be in love with your work; body, mind, heart and soul. No other social institution will work so hard to earn your love as your workplace. And if you don't love your work, or believe in it, many of those around you will do or say things to make you feel like a loser.

But Gen Zers, don't believe the hype. Let the Millennials wallow (or degenerate) in their love-work fest. You've got to learn to love smarter. Because even though your workplace may be promising to develop your whole self, its goal isn't to help you. It's to optimize your personality, so you give everything inside you to expanding its profits.

So, ignore those exhortations to do what you love. It was fresh advice 20 years ago. Today, professionals' problems come not from failing to love work, but from loving work too much.
https://us.cnn.com/2022/06/04/opinio...hen/index.html

Gassho, J

STLah

[Shinshou]

I recently sent this to my son, who is choosing a college major. It seems to make sense:



Gassho, J

STLah

That's great advice. Here was my father's sobering advice when I had career day in high school:

"Dan, they're going to tell you to start with what you're good at, and that's a mistake. They're also going to tell you to start with what you love, and that's a mistake. Instead, think about things that you can get up early in the morning, day after day, five days a week, and do until you retire or die, because that's what work is. It doesn't matter how good you are or how much you love it, if you can't do it day in and day out, it shouldn't be a career. Use your career to do the things you love to do and are good at. It's a tool."
I think about that often.

Shinshou (Daniel)
Sat Today

[Onrin]

Great advice for Leon, and in general an interesting piece, thanks for posting Jundo.
That strikes a bit different in Japan as I know many who live separately from their family for work, and some seem to not mind, which gives me pause as to the health of society.
But as bad a Japan's work culture is, I think US corporate culture is even worse in different ways, demanding 24/7, no possibility of real time away ever.
On that happy note...
Gassho,
Chris

[Risho]

I think US corporate culture is even worse in different ways, demanding 24/7, no possibility of real time away ever.

I don't know much about Japanese work culture, but this is an overgeneralization; I'm sure it is like that at places, but I know of many good places to work. If this is the case where you or anyone work, you need to work for another company. Do not put up with that.

I agree with a lot of what's posted here - I tend to identify with things -- to try to box myself in and create this concrete notion of self with many things including work. But we know that we are way more than what we think we are.

That being said - when it comes to corporations, there are toxic cultures, but you need to leave them if you can; I know that's not always possible. In a good work culture, managers are like tenzo's imho; they should take care of their teams, and I mean really care for them like they are family. They should give away credit, they should take the blame. They should clearly set priorities and make their team feel safe. I know I'm going off topic, but this idea of a healthy work/corporate culture is something that "I" am passionate about; an unhealthy work environment is extremely detrimental.

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

[noz]

Thank you all for your kind words! It is comforting to hear how others have lived through these similar neurological weather events. I got a few good nights of sleep as well, so that helps. (I have a one year old, so this was a nice surprise!).

With gratitude for you all,
Gassho
SatToday/LAH

[Tokan]

Universe expands,
Haiku such a waste of time:
Rain marks the season.

++++++++++

Interesting reading, thank you one and all

Gassho, Tokan (satlah)

[Jeroen]

My experience was different: I did what I loved, was successful at it, was rewarded for it, and worked with some of the biggest firms in my field in the world. And then, at the peak of my success, I suffered a career-ending injury which left me struggling to respond for quite a few years. So you see, you want to try and roll with the punches life throws at you, and even if you do everything right, it may not last. But it sent me looking for inner peace, and that has proved very worthwhile.

Gassho, Jeroen

[Prashanth]

My experience was different: I did what I loved, was successful at it, was rewarded for it, and worked with some of the biggest firms in my field in the world. And then, at the peak of my success, I suffered a career-ending injury which left me struggling to respond for quite a few years. So you see, you want to try and roll with the punches life throws at you, and even if you do everything right, it may not last. But it sent me looking for inner peace, and that has proved very worthwhile.

Gassho, Jeroen

Gassho.

sat.

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[Koriki]

Wow, an important issue and a lot of hard earned wisdom in those answers. I remember several years ago getting to a point on my Buddhist path where I could see that I was heading toward non-striving and I felt myself pull back, because I was definitely a striver. Years later I became ill and had to drop virtually everything I was striving at - career, hobbies, travel. Almost everything I associated with my self was gone. Even with much less ability my striving self still wants to push me. As much as I wish that I wasn't ill, it has been a gift to be forced out of my old ways and to see my striving self in a different light. I commend you for addressing it before impermanence assists you. One year olds help a lot with that, too. Sorry to run long.

Gassho,
Mark
sat