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Thread: Discrimination in the SZBA: Small Changes, BIG BARRIERS

  1. #1

    Discrimination in the SZBA: Small Changes, BIG BARRIERS




    The Soto Zen Buddhist Association, an accrediting organization of Soto Zen clergy in the English speaking world which I have belonged to since 2004, will currently not recognize any priest as a full member unless the applicant has spent:

    "At least 5 years training at a monastery, in a residential practice community, or while living a temple-centered life"

    and

    "At least one 90-day formal practice intensive that meets the criteria established by the SZBA training committee."
    (https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...-Standards.pdf)

    These are honest, well-intended standards meant to identify those Soto Zen priests who are serious, dedicated, well-trained and experienced in our Traditions, priests who have a proven record of good, ethical and energetic service to other sentient beings, filtering out those who are not so serious, dedicated, ethical and the rest. I support these standards, and the vast majority of SZBA full members have been able to satisfy these standards. Problems arise only with regard to those serious, dedicated priests who, due to disabilities and other hardships which they are passing through with grace, wisdom and courage, are unable to meet those requirements because of how they are narrowly interpreted by the SZBA. When requests for change are made to the SZBA, the complaints are ignored, microphones turned off, doors slammed shut.

    Despite many possible meanings to "living a temple-centered life," and despite Master Dogen's own flexibility on the meaning of "90-day formal practice intensive" (Ango), the SZBA continues to discriminate against those fine priests who cannot do so, simply because most members of the SZBA and its Board of Directors once physically could or can.

    There are active priests who have demonstrated, over long years, that they are dedicated and have been serving others ethically and with great energy, but who are simply unable to attend to such physical training and residential isolation without serious risks to health. Nonetheless, such priests have repeatedly, over years, demonstrated their knowledge and understanding of our Traditions, history and practices (as they are able to adapt them to their physical needs) in ways which bring unique insights and outreach to our Path. To give a few examples:

    • One priest, although unable due to age and health and his duties to care for a visually impaired partner, has spent years with good reputation, catering to a small Sangha of other primarily elderly individuals in his community.
    • Another priest, although with a health condition which rarely allows him to exit his room without threat to health, has spent years making sound recordings for the visually impaired of Shobogenzo, offering guidance online, especially through his group focused on Zen, Pain and Chronic Illness to so many Zen practitioners in like circumstances.
    • Another priest, with cancer and in chemotherapy, is simply unable to perform standard rituals, so has designed alternative ceremonies which can be undertaken from a cancer bed.
    • Another priest, although with a potentially life threatening illness, carries on as a medical practitioner near her home helping ill and suffering sentient beings, but would be at serious risk of thromboembolism and stroke if engaged in residential practice away from home.
    • Still another priest, although healthy himself, cannot be far away from a relative in need of constant nursing care, yet also finds the time to cater to a Sangha, study and practice our Zen ways, all with good reputation.


    These priests would barred by the powers within the SZBA because, if I may summarize what has been said by some who would close the doors on their entrance, "Their training cannot be like our training was." In other words, their personal experiences of Zen practice, sitting with physical pain, debilitation, loss, isolation, cancer and mortality on the brink of life and death are deemed just not equivalent to a few weeks of sitting by a healthier person in a retreat somewhere.

    Why? Because a few healthier priests, fortunate enough to swing circumstances and get by, were able to get away from their life responsibilities for a time to do these things. I ask those more fortunate priests, "What is the true living of a 'temple-centered life'?" As one of these barred priests said to me, "We sit RIGHT HERE with pain, loss, isolation, cancer, and mortality, not off in some special isolated place." Their ministry is directed toward others who also know pain, loss, isolation, cancer, and mortality.

    I am sure that the SZBA folks mean well, that they are not bad people with evil intent. But sometimes even good people can do cruel things and can engage in terrible discrimination and prejudice without meaning to do so. I have been told by people in the SZBA, "Well, these folks don't have to be priests, and they can be of service in some other way." But why can't they be priests? Better said, are they not now demonstrating that they are superb priests, serious and serving others?

    Some have said to me, "Well, a priest must be able to do X, Y and Z, such as run a temple, sit Zazen for long hours, travel and give talks, for that is what priests do." Such people ignore the fact that, in both Asia and in the west, today and in centuries past, not all Zen priests fit that description, have found other ways of service (e.g., feeding the poor, nursing the sick, making art and poetry, building bridges and waterways, and much more) and that "running a temple" is not always a matter of some old building of wood and gold. Some recline Zen, or sit their Zen in the chemotherapy chair. Today, in the 21st century, there are ways for these priests to be trained, to practice and study, and to serve others through media simply unavailable 100 or 1000 years ago.

    Some in the SZBA have said to me, "Well, this is just their bad Karma from the past to now be sick, it cannot be helped." Such people ignore the fact that identical claims were used in the past by Soto Zen in Japan to excuse their discrimination against certain "untouchable" classes, the poor, lepers and other disabled, an injustice which Soto-shu in Japan has only now begun to apologize for. (read up on some Soto Zen history here: https://nirc.nanzan-u.ac.jp/nfile/2584)

    The SZBA points to some of its members, and has made a committee of its members, who have some types of disability that allowed them to do residential practice. Thus, they say, "See, even some disabled people can do it, and they became our members." However, the SZBA thus forgets that not all people are disabled in the same ways, and that, just because some could, that does not mean that we can compare those disabled people who cannot.

    The SZBA is now conducting a survey asking for input from individuals who have encountered barriers to priesthood "to find out more about the experience of Soto Zen priests and practitioners with physical/mental disabilities and/or who identify as neuro-diverse." It is a well meaning effort. HOWEVER, our fears are that the SZBA, once again as in the past, will fail to waive its residential training requirements for these good priests, and will instead insist that small measures ... a wheelchair ramp here or there, a shortened schedule, someone to help them walk to the bathroom ... is enough.

    It is far from enough for some. Taking small measures, while leaving in place the big barriers, will continue to bar some completely.

    More on this next time.

    Gassho, J
    Last edited by Jundo; 01-29-2022 at 06:26 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  2. #2
    Please excuse any unintended appearance that I am trying to teach or explain anything. I am preparing for ordination as a novice priest, and have no depth of knowledge or qualifications for teaching Zen.

    Can an organization like the SZBA (or Sōtō-shu) remain relevant, if through these requirements they bar differently abled persons to engage in such service roles? Many of these potential priests could fully perform their duties and perhaps outshine allegedly able persons. It seems ableist; something any spiritual practice should strive to avoid. We take refuge in the Sangha, not the dogma.

    There are many people who have a Bachelors, Masters, or doctorate in Fine Arts, who work in IT or food service, or anything other than art. A lot of them are terrible artists. Anyone can get a DFA, as they have nothing at all to do with actual skill as an artist. I have never once had any person who comes to my studio ask whether I had a degree. They look at my paintings, and that's what matters.

    Gassho,
    然芸 Nengei
    Sat today. LAH.
    Last edited by Nengei; 01-29-2022 at 03:47 AM.

  3. #3
    Spot on Jundo and Nengei.

    "We take refuge in the Sangha, not the dogma."

    Gassho, Tomás
    Sat&LaH

  4. #4


    Gassho,
    Onkai
    Sat/lah
    美道 Bidou Beautiful Way
    恩海 Onkai Merciful/Kind Ocean

    I have a lot to learn; take anything I say that sounds like teaching with a grain of salt.

  5. #5

    Kotei sat/lah today.

    義道 冴庭 / Gidō Kotei.
    Being a novice priest doesn't mean that my writing about the Dharma is more substantial than yours. Actually, it might well be the other way round.

  6. #6


    I hope that the SZBA will make some much-needed changes regarding the recognition of priests. As an educator, I was trained to look at students as individuals with their own unique needs and to build on their strengths so that they can succeed. The goal is equity, and I don't see why the SZBA can't do the same.

    Gassho,

    Shade

    ST

  7. #7
    Wind rises; grasses bend.

    gassho
    ds sat/lah
    Visiting unsui, take w/salt.

  8. #8

  9. #9
    生と死をください

    STLah
    安知 Anchi

  10. #10
    I have been a part of this survey. That's not exactly what I wish to address in my comments. I ask Jundo to allow me to introduce myself with some of the issues facing me as making me qualified to speak out. I am lay member who tries to support, be sensitive to to gain trust, grandmotherly, married with one adult daughter 32 earning her PhD in Japanese literature. Now I am Ubasoku, 70-years-old, husband this year for 40 years, held professional positions, earned advanced degrees, legally disabled, sit zazen sometimes for 40 minutes. I don't sit the traditional methods of lotus, half lotus, or Burmese, my joints are gone. Treeleaf, second home to me, granted me Ubasoku. I am caring to all people. SZBA expectations are difficult to maintain for priests; I have earned distinguishing recognition in academia and could have worked toward becoming a priest in 2014. I have undertaken The Buddhist Precepts several times. Treeleaf gave me the gift I could not make it myself, the rakusu. My hands are filled with arthritis.

    Perhaps I would make a good priest, but requirements don't me be a without money for residence. Rigorous physical requirements disqualify me; yet, few priests could earn my degrees. The two are not better or worse. I taught both full-time, and part-time for 23 years at colleges and universities. I would be expected to meet rules as priest-in-training that have nothing to do with being a priest.

    At 70, disqualified as priest. My wife and I provide for ourselves. The SZBA does not want people with medical histories. They don't care that a person needs physical or mental accommodation. For seven years at Treeleaf Zendo, despite age and disability, I trained myself to sit in a straight back chair with arms or I fall out of this chair. Disease require doctors to see me every two months told by professionals that I have accomplished more than most people in twice my life span. I cannot be a Soto Zen Priest. Wife says often, "You are just a guy and remember it!" a guy, I am wonderful father and a loyal and sensitive husband. I have decided to give up the priesthood. Ten years ago I had earned academic degrees for working as Professor, and Instructor at colleges and universities which I will ever have, no priesthood according to the rules of the SZBA. I am good guy, one of the of the best. Who at SZBA could stand in my shoes? Yet, I am unfit since I was 22-years-old.
    Gassho
    sat/ lah
    Last edited by Tai Shi; 01-30-2022 at 11:36 PM. Reason: revvision
    Lay member, loving kindness; just a guy, Calm Poet, Ubasoku.

  11. #11
    No the priesthood is not an accompaniment but a calling. Obviously I have not been called but I am sure you are right. In the same way, from the time I was 16 years old, all I ever wanted to be is a poet, and though there were obstacles to becoming a poet I never once faulted the system that allowed me to work hard so tha I might write poetry. Sorry I was not implying you are correct. I chose early to work in the direction of male poets, and along the way there have been situations that only I understood like my first psychiatrist who told directly never marry, never become a parent, and never go back to school. This was after I had graduated from the best college in my state of Iowa. If I had listened to this psychiatrist, I would never have found Marjorie and we would never have become parents of a beautifully gifted person, our daughter, PhD candidate and Fulbright scholar, i ha madly in love with my wife after 41 years, and my calling is to follow my dream of poetry writing until I die. Marjorie and Laure have been there for me all through my brain surgery, Marjorie watching me wheeled to the OR for my brain surgery, Laurel called dad from Japan where she is conducting he research, and she teaches at one the most prestigious universities in Japan. Our family never asked for a handful of difficult times. Every family has difficulty with some aspects of life, and when RNs wheeled me into ICU after surgery for my life, who was waiting but Marjorie. My surgery did not destroy us but made us stronger as a family. I wonder what that psychiatrist would say if i were to tell her Charles E Taylor. BA, MA, EdS, MFA and outstanding grades as a trained poet, and father, husband, 23 years college teaching one year at the University of Iowa instructor, one year University of South Dakota instructor. This before I was forced out of work at age 58 by my disabilities. I truly wanted to earn the MFA when I was 18, and all my dreams have been materialized because of my hard work. The priesthood is beyond me. I was a dedicated teacher turning my attention to those students who had the most difficult time successfully completing their education. I am sure these students are and became a success person not because of my understanding and dedicated teaching. If the priesthood is out of my reach I avoid the pain and suffering given to teaching. I was never expected to succeed because my initial diagnosis was schizophrenia and then about 18 years later crippling arthritis, Ankylosing Spondylitis. Many difficult times including my brain surgery, and my life has improved because of my brain surgery. Thank you for I recognize my limitations.
    Gassho
    sat/ lah


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Lay member, loving kindness; just a guy, Calm Poet, Ubasoku.

  12. #12
    I think that at the end of training priests should be required to pass a standardized exam before becoming licensed to practice independent of their teachers. This would ensure that only able priests, regardless of disability, entered the profession.

    Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

  13. #13
    I agree Jishin. Maybe you should write that test based on the MMPI 2 R , and diagnosis them fit or unfit to practice priesthood duties. You might have a staffing with 7 of your cronies. Would you like to be judging Priesthood in addition to the fathers, husbands, and professionals in every walk of life. Of course, psychiatrists should be judge and jury for everything and maybe there would be no felons. Maybe if psychiatrists judged everyone we could just do away with the pronouns I and me. Make them all we and us. Have you even heard of the novel Anthem. Ah yes standards are for everything including the right to breed. You can be the psychiatrist who judges me insane lol so I can escape with my wife into the wilderness.
    Gassho
    sat/ lah


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Lay member, loving kindness; just a guy, Calm Poet, Ubasoku.

  14. #14
    I’m worked up because I feel misunderstood. My comments were not intended to criticize Treeleaf priests or priests in training. I feel misunderstood. Maybe I can just keep my eyes open and mouth shut. Thank you thank goodness I don’t have to be judge and jury. I never believed in grades.
    Gassho
    Tai Shi
    sat/ lah


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Lay member, loving kindness; just a guy, Calm Poet, Ubasoku.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Jishin View Post
    I think that at the end of training priests should be required to pass a standardized exam before becoming licensed to practice independent of their teachers. This would ensure that only able priests, regardless of disability, entered the profession.

    Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH
    Like a driver's test for the universe?

    I am afraid that the paper test will not cover it, we need a road test too.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  16. #16
    I hope SZBA will revise their rules soon ...
    But what about Soto-shu in Japan? Do they also discriminate people with disabilities? Or is this an American trait?

    Gassho
    Wabo
    ST

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Wabo View Post
    I hope SZBA will revise their rules soon ...
    But what about Soto-shu in Japan? Do they also discriminate people with disabilities? Or is this an American trait?

    Gassho
    Wabo
    ST
    Yes, in Japan too, one cannot become a full blown Soto Zen priest without going through the normal route of training, as far as I know. However, at some time soon, I will inquire of them. Maybe we can bring this campaign to Japan too! I don't think that it is only American too, but throughout western Zen.

    Gassho, Jundo

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Wabo View Post
    I hope SZBA will revise their rules soon ...
    But what about Soto-shu in Japan? Do they also discriminate people with disabilities? Or is this an American trait?

    Gassho
    Wabo
    ST
    By the way, I know that you are in the far west of Ukraine, but we all wish for peace. May there be, and few lives touched by foolishness and violence.

    Gassho, Jundi

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  19. #19
    I’m worked up because I feel misunderstood. My comments were not intended to criticize Treeleaf priests or priests in training. I feel misunderstood. Maybe I can just keep my eyes open and mouth shut. Thank you thank goodness I don’t have to be judge and jury. I never believed in grades.
    I don't think anyone took your words as criticism, Tai Shi. And you know how Jishin is - his words are provocative but underneath they often point at a truth which in this case seems to be how it is impossible to objectively judge who will be a good priest regardless of the number of guidelines or tests. Even in professions that require numerous tests to pass, such as Jishin's own psychiatry training, it is impossible to ensure that everyone who ends up licensed will be worthy of that license.

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    ------------------------------------
    Feel free to message me if you wish to talk about issues around practicing with physical limitations. This is something I have been sitting with for a fair while and am happy to help with suggestions or just offer a listening ear.

  20. #20
    Apologies for the following going over.

    I think there isn't a clear definition of what's truly acceptable within priest training because generally our traditional notions
    of just about everything are moving on fast.

    Honesty - here's mine. I don't think physical disability is necessarily a major issue/bar for me to a 'notion' of priesthood (though it would be within the terms set up by the SZBA) even though disability most definitely is a major issue in my lived life. The 'notion' is the question mark and the devil is in the detail.

    For example, I would not be authentic to myself if I had to wear a robe (I totally respect what the robe signifies to others) I don't resonate much with traditional chanting and in general I feel ceremonies need an imaginative re-working alongside cherished traditions ,so that the essence of Zen isn't lost but maybe becomes more accessible. I would therefore not be a good candidate to employ traditional Soto Forms as set out in the guidelines even though I feel some form of a calling. In fact, if for personal reasons I simply don't feel able to wear robes, by current rules I can't be a trainee priest at all. For sure we could get into arguments for the lessons to be learnt from submission to things we don't like but I place authenticity above that - else there's no real integrity.

    To explain further - The 33 page Tree Leaf guidelines for Priest Training is extensive and specific (not a criticism). I feel I'd fail at the first post 'Carrying the Tradition' - I don't think I'd do this well because I'm always wanting to re-interpret and I believe tradition can and often needs to evolve. The history/ background knowledge is really important - but I constantly envision new choreography in it - if we go with the analogy of the dance - I see new steps embedded within the tradition and those steps transcend disability in a way hard and fast rules can't and often impede. I'm not totally ditching tradition here and appreciate the spirituality within.

    I feel there is a juncture between the above and the limitations of disability = it could be argued that disability is only a limitation if we insist on tradition. I don't feel somehow bending the rules and rigours of ritual/practice to accommodate is the answer.
    The notion of 'adaptation, substitution,adjustment' possibly needs a measure of trust, an open space in order to birth a wider understanding of what it may be to be a priest.

    Sorry if this comes across as waffle - but I wonder what would happen if instead of trying to fit in we go even further the other way. Such a great start has been made here, does it really matter what the SZBA think? I reckon we should push the boat out further,

    Gata, Gate, Paragate, Parasamgate, Bodhi Svaha!

    Who's to say it won't take us to the furthest shore


    Gassho

    Jinyo

    Sat today
    Last edited by Jinyo; 01-31-2022 at 11:47 AM.

  21. #21

    Discrimination in the SZBA: Small Changes, BIG BARRIERS

    Yes in the Ukraine Ihope things are more peaceful soon.

    There is just a lot I don’t know about becoming a priest, and I hope I can trust this information I read in the Treeleaf Forum. Perhaps the rules are there for a purpose. I see priest’s sometimes moving in front of the camera in ways that would be impossible for me. However, I gave up the notions of priesthood long ago because I took the advice of my wife who said I am “just a guy.” I believe that I am good at some things and not good at others. I accept advice for my practice from my best friend and others who know me well. I am just not suitable for some rolls and being a good member is what I can do.
    Gassho
    sat/ lah


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Last edited by Tai Shi; 01-31-2022 at 12:03 PM.
    Lay member, loving kindness; just a guy, Calm Poet, Ubasoku.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Tai Shi View Post
    I’m worked up because I feel misunderstood. My comments were not intended to criticize Treeleaf priests or priests in training. I feel misunderstood. Maybe I can just keep my eyes open and mouth shut. Thank you thank goodness I don’t have to be judge and jury. I never believed in grades.
    Gassho
    Tai Shi
    Already 5 years ago, Tai Shi, with Kyousui and Matt too ...





    Gassho, Jundo

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  23. #23
    Apologies in advance.

    I've studied all I can find of nun life in China and Japan and I think all along, at least in China, there's been a place for those who are active and self-supporting in cloistered and/or family settings, but without having it required of them that they meet ableist standards rooted in a liturgy and physicality of ritual that reflects court ritual from Imperial China. Historically, no one with so much as a limp could serve in the Emperor's bureaucracy, which is reputedly how we got the self-exile of Han Shan, who was "perfect" until he was thrown from his horse.

    Several years ago, Rev. Gesshin Greenwood had a blog post (no longer extant) featuring a decision tree depicting the Soto life path. It humorously but inexorably led from hearing about Zen to becoming a layperson in a rakusu, to novice, to full priest, to teacher, to abbott. I thought, here is a recipe for "too many cooks."

    Of nuns in ancient China, Dr. Karen Carr says: "Inside the monastery, women cleaned and cooked, but they also sang prayer chants and played musical instruments like gongs and bells. Many Buddhist nuns spent most of their day spinning, weaving, or working in the fields, just like other women of their time." Elsewhere I have read that many indeed ran shops or stayed home to help their elderly parents, showing up at the temple only on special occasions.

    That's how I envision my life: time divided between cooking and cleaning, homestead maintenance, planting and maintaining trees, and raising and preserving food. And showing up at zazenkai when I can.

    I do feel called to exemplify Buddha in my "sitting" -- such as it is -- and in my "doing" -- such as it is -- yet he recommended some separation, a home leaving, for at least some of his volunteer examplars. I'm all for it. But ultimately this led to the rigorous home-leaving of Japan's teaching monasteries, with some practices bordering (to my eye) on the abusive sadhu practices tried, and then repudiated, by Buddha himself (the Middle Way).

    Did we all skip ahead from emptiness to form and forget how even the form and formlessness of a blade of grass preaches all dharma endlessly?

    This has tangled up me and others in the West as we have no, or very few, temple systems and parishioners to subsist on, so we hang out at home and cosplay with bells, candles and robes intermittently and refer to ourselves as "priests." I have heard of some in Japan who have read or heard of all this and that their response was akin to a double take and "what??" Could the SZBA be simply trying to add some spine-stiffening to our Zen culture so as to stand up to scrutiny from the Soto-shu as to our legitimacy?

    To which I'm tempted to respond, why bother?

    I aspired to the nun life but felt that requiring of nuns that they be also priests expected to serve at the altar and leading chants struck me as likely to lead to undue stress.

    My life does seem to differ in some way/ways from that of most of the laypeople around me. I've dedicated a considerable portion of it to the very altar work and etc. that I "cannot" by SZBA standards do.

    Personally I'm a lot like Chudapanthaka, unable to hold the chants and dance steps in my head, along with inability to hear and coordinate with what the other officiants are doing, or often unable to sit up even in a chair for long enough to make it through a sit, and needing to pee and poo suddenly and irregularly during longer events. Also I'm prone to random seizures. So, as the difficulties mounted, I considered telling my brick-and-mortar sangha, before Covid, that I'd probably soon be hanging up my robe.

    And what of those whose condition prevents any physical form of way-entering? We tell them they are not qualified, like Han Shan?

    Zoom has made continued participation possible in my case. Yay Zoom and its like.

    Screen Shot 2021-10-07 at 12.46.17 PM.png

    "When Ma-tsu certified P’ang’s awakening, he asked him if he would put on the black robe or continue to wear white."

    Maybe our cultural setting requires a third option: some kind of gray. "Home-leaving" as we have modified it but no expectation of a curriculum that must end in failure if we do not make full priest, let alone abbott. Chop wood, carry water, chant metta, or whatever one can do between the extremes of book Zen and waterfall-meditation Zen. Just another monk, just another nun.

    Continuing to chop wood and carry water,

    gassho,

    ds sat and lah
    Visiting unsui, take w/salt.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Shōnin Risa Bear View Post


    Maybe our cultural setting requires a third option: some kind of gray. "Home-leaving" as we have modified it but no expectation of a curriculum that must end in failure if we do not make full priest, let alone abbott. Chop wood, carry water, chant metta, or whatever one can do between the extremes of book Zen and waterfall-meditation Zen. Just another monk, just another nun.
    This is an interesting idea. It seems that in the west, the idea of ordination is a step on the path toward "preisthood," whereas in a monastery, ordination would not necessarily lead to that, but could rather just be a level of practice - and teaching - that is more intense and deeper. (At least as for as I understand.) But since monasteries in Japan don't really approach the teaching of zen the way we do, this makes the translation more complex.

    So ordination as a goal rather than a transitional state... With no going or coming forward or back, unless at some later stage the person wants to make that next step...?

    Gassho,

    Ryūmon (Kirk)

    sat
    流文

    I know nothing.

  25. #25
    I spoke too soon, and what works for one culture may not work for another. I have read that for each different shore, there is a hybrid of Buddhism and that culture, and even among the populations off a country, there are differences between various states, or provinces. A group need not conform to the standards of one centralized location to be called Buddhist or Zen Buddhist. Look at Soto and I am no speller, is it Rinzai? Entirely different approaches to one end, so why argue about who is right? I am a pacifist, and yet in ancient times and now there were and are differing ideas on how best to carry the message of peace, and always in every culture there are those who feel peace means war. Why argue about what is for me, a realization that fighting is not for me. Why fight about who is right? I think there are independent Zen or Buddhist priests who follow their own calling. The Zen Buddhist chaplain at one of our state prisons is a Soto Zen Buddhist as is one of the U.U. ministers. Both men have never heard off Jukai, or rakusu. When I tried to explain, they asked, "Why?" and that for them such rituals are not necessary. I have a friend at the U.U. church where I am a "friend," and where give a small amount of money each month to support what I see as peace, who practices Buddhist meditation and only every other month or so sits with visiting Zen priests and there are others who see the same church as agents of Satan and who see the Heritage of such a church at 180% different from the will of "God." Why argue? For me it is enough to say that my best friend, Marjorie, is right. I am not special. I am just a guy practicing Soto Zen Buddhism, and under that umbrella, I am both Unitarian Universalist, and Christiaan. One does not preclude the other, and all work in my mind toward the end of peace. This is what I believe that ultimately peaceful coexistence works in my heart. I am afraid of guilt and terror; getting along with each other is my belief; that love and tolerance is my code, and sometimes my train of loving kindness gets derailed.
    Gassho
    sat/lah
    Lay member, loving kindness; just a guy, Calm Poet, Ubasoku.

  26. #26
    Lovely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shōnin Risa Bear View Post
    I do feel called to exemplify Buddha in my "sitting" -- such as it is -- and in my "doing" -- such as it is -- yet he recommended some separation, a home leaving, for at least some of his volunteer examplars.
    There is actually some evidence that it was some, but not all.

    Could the SZBA be simply trying to add some spine-stiffening to our Zen culture so as to stand up to scrutiny from the Soto-shu as to our legitimacy?
    I think there is some fact to this.

    I aspired to the nun life but felt that requiring of nuns that they be also priests expected to serve at the altar and leading chants struck me as likely to lead to undue stress.
    In this Sangha at least, we modify the altar work and chants to fit the priest and what the priest can do!

    Treeleaf's Differently-Abled Ancestors Lineage Recitation
    https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...age-Recitation

    Maybe our cultural setting requires a third option: some kind of gray. "Home-leaving" as we have modified it but no expectation of a curriculum that must end in failure if we do not make full priest, let alone abbott.
    Nishijima Roshi pointed out that this is the mind making categories and measures that need not be drawn just so. He said this (from the obituary I wrote about him) ...

    Nishijima advocated a form of ordination that fully steps beyond and drops away divisions of “Priest or Lay, Male or Female”, yet allows us to fully embody and actuate each and all as the situation requires. ... When I am a parent to my children, I am 100% that and fully there for them. When I am a worker at my job, I am that and embody such a role with sincerity and dedication. And when I am asked to step into the role of hosting zazen, offering a dharma talk, practicing and embodying our history and teachings and passing them on to others, I fully carry out and embody 100% the role of “Priest” in that moment. Whatever the moment requires: maintaining a sangha community, bestowing the Precepts, working with others to help sentient beings. The names we call ourselves do not matter. In Nishijima’s way, we do not ask and are unconcerned with whether we are “Priest” or “Lay”, for we are neither that alone, while always thoroughly both; exclusively each in purest and unadulterated form, yet wholly all at once. It is just as, in the West, we have come to step beyond the hard divisions and discriminations between “male” and “female”, recognizing that each of us may embody all manner of qualities to varying degrees as the circumstances present, and that traditional “male” and “female” stereotypes are not so clear-cut as once held. So it is with the divisions of “Priest” and “Lay”.
    https://web.archive.org/web/20160324...-zen-buddhism/


    Gassho, J

    STLah

    Sorry to run long
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  27. #27
    That was an interesting discussion. It made me think about what the buddha and his sangha did daily. Meditation, dharma talks, walking to villages, asking for alms. It seemed much simpler back then. After transmission of the dharma to someone he asked that they go somewhere and teach.



    Sat/lah


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    _/_
    Rich
    MUHYO
    無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

    https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

  28. #28
    "making categories and measures" too true



    gassho
    d shonin sat and some lah
    Last edited by Shōnin Risa Bear; 02-01-2022 at 03:07 AM.
    Visiting unsui, take w/salt.

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    That was an interesting discussion. It made me think about what the buddha and his sangha did daily. Meditation, dharma talks, walking to villages, asking for alms. ...
    And if someone was sick or became disabled, I am sure that they did not make them walk to the village, but brought them back food to share ...

    Gassho, J

    STlah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  30. #30
    Doshin sorry, I saw your discussion before it was deleted, so I hope that I can answer ...


    I do not mean to say this discussion is not important…I just wonder why recognition matters.
    Ah, it does not. Or better, it does not, yet it does.

    (1) So, each priest him/herself knows that he/her is or is not a good and sincere priest, truly teaching something of worth, truly understanding of our traditions, truly helping others. That is most important.

    (2) Also, each individual Soto Zen Sangha, teacher-student between them, determines who is a Soto Zen priest and who is not. It is completely between that teacher and student, and nobody else's opinions matter. Hopefully, the teacher provides some training and guidance of substance.

    (3) But when an organization which purports to be for "Soto Zen Buddhist" priests, and has a quality accrediting function, says to some, "sorry, you are not good enough to come in," we think that we should protest. In fact, I support their quality standards in general, because there are many fake or totally untrained and self-declared "Zen priests" out there, so standards are necessary and right! However, the way they are too narrowly enforcing those standards is excluding these sincere, dedicated, caring, knowledgeable priests who should not be excluded.

    Now, once those priests get in the organization ... then, who cares? They don't matter a lick. Then, all that matters is (1) above, and (2) ...



    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Sorry for running long.
    Last edited by Jundo; 02-01-2022 at 03:56 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  31. #31



    Thanks Jundo. I sort of answered my question when writing it so I deleted it. However your explanation is better than mine.

    Doshin
    st

  32. #32
    I think we have touched on a topic that is more global than SZBA policy. We need to act wisely. American Zen is looks to Japanese, because if there is no such practice in Japan itself, then SZBA will always be able to refer to traditions.

    Gassho
    Wabo
    ST

  33. #33
    Given that the pandemic is not yet over I just hope that one day SZBA would come to accept that virtual sitting and zendo might become the "new normal" for monastic training someday.

    Just my thought.

    Gassho
    Raymund
    SatLah
    Last edited by Raymund; 02-03-2022 at 06:48 PM.

  34. #34
    I believe it was Alan Watts who wrote something to the effect that when a religion's clergy demand something be a certain way it marks the death throws of said religion.

    It was Shunryu Suzuki who said that when Buddhism enters a new country it changes to adapt to that culture. Suzuki noted that in the U.S. Soto Zen practitioners we neither priests nor lay persons. The sewing of the rakusu and jukai ceremony for the purpose of lay ordination sort of go along these lines.

    I have recently started to contemplate the future of Soto Zen. I believe the customs and ceremonies have purpose, but are not of the greatest importance. Dogen himself stressed zazen over everything else. I look forward to seeing how Buddhism will continue to evolve as the Dharma Wheel turns.

    I personally paused my preparation for jukai. I still have at least 5 years before I am eligible for retirement. I have 3 sons entering adulthood who need my help getting on their feet. I have a marriage I am trying to repair and restore. I do not have time for sesshin or sewing the Buddha's robe. Maybe in my next rebirth.

    It saddens me that there are those who do not suffer the same time restraints as I and who wish to serve as a Zen priest, but rules prevent them. My Soto Zen Sensei is not affiliated with SZBA. He recently took 4 of his students to his home temple in Japan for their ordination. Maybe there is another way?

    Gassho,

    -Jared
    (Sat Today)

  35. #35
    I think we need to keep a balance in this regard. The Buddha laid down many rules for his followers. This is what makes Buddhism, not say Wicca (an it harm none, do what ye will).

    Fixation makes the mind dogmatic. The absence of rules threatens us with the risk of losing the Way. I think the liveliness of the tradition is determined by the ability to seek this middle path.

    I like Treeleaf, and i like Jundo that he can combine it both. My former sangha has become some kind of a calligraphy club with zazen... And here I find regular practice.

    Gassho
    Wabo
    ST/LAH

  36. #36

  37. #37
    Please correct me! How do I talk to you, when I was taught to always write in the first person I and make myself an example? Where do I begin?
    Gassho
    sat/ lah


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Lay member, loving kindness; just a guy, Calm Poet, Ubasoku.

  38. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by theagnosticseeker20 View Post
    Given that the pandemic is not yet over I just hope that one day SZBA would come to accept that virtual sitting and zendo might become the "new normal" for monastic training someday.

    Just my thought.

    Gassho
    Raymund
    SatLah
    Speaking as a person in a chronic illness population, I think this would be great, and even better perhaps, if virtual sitting, ceremonies, and monastic training might become an "also normal" with the SZBA. One does not necessarily need to replace the other. Why not both/and? Just my opinion.

    Gassho, meian stlh

    Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
    優婆塞 | Ubasoku (Excellence-Grandmotherly Heart-Foundation)
    迷安 | Meian (Wandering at Rest)

  39. #39
    I am expecting and hopefully will be in service as lay member for UBASOKU and deep gratitude and allowing service in our Zendo no matter why it happened to me.
    Gassho
    sat/ lah


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Lay member, loving kindness; just a guy, Calm Poet, Ubasoku.

  40. #40
    Was Bodhidharma member of the Soto Zen Buddhist Association?

    Gassho,

    大哲

    #sat2day
    no thing needs to be added

  41. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Shōnin Risa Bear View Post
    Apologies in advance.

    I've studied all I can find of nun life in China and Japan and I think all along, at least in China, there's been a place for those who are active and self-supporting in cloistered and/or family settings, but without having it required of them that they meet ableist standards rooted in a liturgy and physicality of ritual that reflects court ritual from Imperial China. Historically, no one with so much as a limp could serve in the Emperor's bureaucracy, which is reputedly how we got the self-exile of Han Shan, who was "perfect" until he was thrown from his horse.

    Several years ago, Rev. Gesshin Greenwood had a blog post (no longer extant) featuring a decision tree depicting the Soto life path. It humorously but inexorably led from hearing about Zen to becoming a layperson in a rakusu, to novice, to full priest, to teacher, to abbott. I thought, here is a recipe for "too many cooks."

    Of nuns in ancient China, Dr. Karen Carr says: "Inside the monastery, women cleaned and cooked, but they also sang prayer chants and played musical instruments like gongs and bells. Many Buddhist nuns spent most of their day spinning, weaving, or working in the fields, just like other women of their time." Elsewhere I have read that many indeed ran shops or stayed home to help their elderly parents, showing up at the temple only on special occasions.

    That's how I envision my life: time divided between cooking and cleaning, homestead maintenance, planting and maintaining trees, and raising and preserving food. And showing up at zazenkai when I can.

    I do feel called to exemplify Buddha in my "sitting" -- such as it is -- and in my "doing" -- such as it is -- yet he recommended some separation, a home leaving, for at least some of his volunteer examplars. I'm all for it. But ultimately this led to the rigorous home-leaving of Japan's teaching monasteries, with some practices bordering (to my eye) on the abusive sadhu practices tried, and then repudiated, by Buddha himself (the Middle Way).

    Did we all skip ahead from emptiness to form and forget how even the form and formlessness of a blade of grass preaches all dharma endlessly?

    This has tangled up me and others in the West as we have no, or very few, temple systems and parishioners to subsist on, so we hang out at home and cosplay with bells, candles and robes intermittently and refer to ourselves as "priests." I have heard of some in Japan who have read or heard of all this and that their response was akin to a double take and "what??" Could the SZBA be simply trying to add some spine-stiffening to our Zen culture so as to stand up to scrutiny from the Soto-shu as to our legitimacy?

    To which I'm tempted to respond, why bother?

    I aspired to the nun life but felt that requiring of nuns that they be also priests expected to serve at the altar and leading chants struck me as likely to lead to undue stress.

    My life does seem to differ in some way/ways from that of most of the laypeople around me. I've dedicated a considerable portion of it to the very altar work and etc. that I "cannot" by SZBA standards do.

    Personally I'm a lot like Chudapanthaka, unable to hold the chants and dance steps in my head, along with inability to hear and coordinate with what the other officiants are doing, or often unable to sit up even in a chair for long enough to make it through a sit, and needing to pee and poo suddenly and irregularly during longer events. Also I'm prone to random seizures. So, as the difficulties mounted, I considered telling my brick-and-mortar sangha, before Covid, that I'd probably soon be hanging up my robe.

    And what of those whose condition prevents any physical form of way-entering? We tell them they are not qualified, like Han Shan?

    Zoom has made continued participation possible in my case. Yay Zoom and its like.

    Screen Shot 2021-10-07 at 12.46.17 PM.png

    "When Ma-tsu certified P’ang’s awakening, he asked him if he would put on the black robe or continue to wear white."

    Maybe our cultural setting requires a third option: some kind of gray. "Home-leaving" as we have modified it but no expectation of a curriculum that must end in failure if we do not make full priest, let alone abbott. Chop wood, carry water, chant metta, or whatever one can do between the extremes of book Zen and waterfall-meditation Zen. Just another monk, just another nun.

    Continuing to chop wood and carry water,

    gassho,

    ds sat and lah
    My apologies to Jundo! I did not mean to criticize. Let me slide by. Thank you

    Someone asked about Bodhidharma. I checked my Bodhisattva Archetypes abd He is an incarnation of the Avalokiteshvare. And in Tibet since the 17th Century The 5th Dali Lama is an incarnation of him. The current 14th, retired, Ddli Lama is him “of compassion “ in Chan/Zen in Chinab he is “spiritual leader.”
    Great Buddhist master from India who arrived at the court of Emperor Wu of Liang in Southern China, a great patron of Buddhism “ practitioner who built many monasteries, translated many sutras. Bodidharma “asked what merit he had accrued V by his good works,” Bodidharma replied no merit.” “Emperor asked what is highest meaning of this sacred truth?” Bodidharma said, “Vast emptiness, nothing Holly.” “Who is this?” Bodhidharma said, “I don’t know.” Emperor did not understand. Bodhidharma crossed the Yangez River to Wei in Northern China. The story goes on that the Emperor said he would not return.Bodidharma abandoned him. An immediate response in the Lotus Sutra a compassionate way to awaken the Emperor. As I have heard Jundo say there are many stories about Bodidharma and he seems to me a legendary man. Perhaps he is best noted for carrying Buddhism to China. After leaving the Emperor he sat wall gazing in a cave for 9 years. Bodhidharma tested a monk as to being serious to study with him. The story is convoluted but Bodhidharma finally accepted the monk who cut off his own arm, handed it to Bodhidharma and he accepted the monk, and the legend remains that the monk is the second patriarch though hie arm was probably cut off by bandits. I find this represents the strictness of Avalokitshashavara, the embodiment of Bodhidharma. Long explanation and Jundo please forgive. I recommend. Bodhisattva Aacrtypea, classic Buddhist Guides Awakening… this book was recommended some time ago by Jundo.
    Gassho
    sat/ lah


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Lay member, loving kindness; just a guy, Calm Poet, Ubasoku.

  42. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Tai Shi View Post
    My apologies to Jundo! I did not mean to criticize. Let me slide by. Thank you

    Someone asked about Bodhidharma. I checked my Bodhisattva Archetypes abd He is an incarnation of the Avalokiteshvare. And in Tibet since the 17th Century The 5th Dali Lama is an incarnation of him. The current 14th, retired, Ddli Lama is him “of compassion “ in Chan/Zen in Chinab he is “spiritual leader.”
    Great Buddhist master from India who arrived at the court of Emperor Wu of Liang in Southern China, a great patron of Buddhism “ practitioner who built many monasteries, translated many sutras. Bodidharma “asked what merit he had accrued V by his good works,” Bodidharma replied no merit.” “Emperor asked what is highest meaning of this sacred truth?” Bodidharma said, “Vast emptiness, nothing Holly.” “Who is this?” Bodhidharma said, “I don’t know.” Emperor did not understand. Bodhidharma crossed the Yangez River to Wei in Northern China. The story goes on that the Emperor said he would not return.Bodidharma abandoned him. An immediate response in the Lotus Sutra a compassionate way to awaken the Emperor. As I have heard Jundo say there are many stories about Bodidharma and he seems to me a legendary man. Perhaps he is best noted for carrying Buddhism to China. After leaving the Emperor he sat wall gazing in a cave for 9 years. Bodhidharma tested a monk as to being serious to study with him. The story is convoluted but Bodhidharma finally accepted the monk who cut off his own arm, handed it to Bodhidharma and he accepted the monk, and the legend remains that the monk is the second patriarch though hie arm was probably cut off by bandits. I find this represents the strictness of Avalokitshashavara, the embodiment of Bodhidharma. Long explanation and Jundo please forgive. I recommend. Bodhisattva Aacrtypea, classic Buddhist Guides Awakening… this book was recommended some time ago by Jundo.
    Gassho
    sat/ lah


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Hi TS ...

    In fact, in Taigen's book on "Bodhisattva Archetypes" (a very good book) ...

    https://wisdomexperience.org/product/faces-compassion/

    ... he does point out that, according to some beliefs, Bodhidharma (as well as the Dalai Lama) were/are said by some to be incarnations of Kannon.

    Yes, much about Bodhidharma is probably legend (although still filled with "truths" in the wisdom and compassion conveyed by the stories), and the arm cutting part is one such legend, probably about another monk who lost an arm to bandits.

    In any case, I do recommend the book, and it is on our recommended list ...

    Suggested Books & Media
    https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...ed-Books-Media

    ... although there is absolutely NO MERIT in reading it!

    Gassho, Jundo

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 02-08-2022 at 02:04 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  43. #43
    PS - On the lost arm ... Alas, this may have come about because losing an arm in a "regular" way like a robbery or to disease or accident was just too "inglorious" for a story, so had to be turned into a sacred legend of sacrifice (much like Jesus on the cross like a common criminal with thieves had to be made a tale of sacred sacrifice for our sins). Thus, the origin of the story may actually be another kind of discrimination against the disabled in a small way.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  44. #44
    Hello Tai Shi,

    Thanks a lot for all this information.
    Of course, I know who Bodhidharma was - my question was of a more rhetorical nature:
    I am quite sure he was not member of the SZBA, yet we'd all agree he was authentic, right?
    I don't care about any associations or organizations. That's just a layer of bureaucracy trying to impose its definition of right and wrong.

    When it comes to Zen, what I care about is what Jundo, other Zen teachers and Sangha members have to say. I don't need SZBA's approval though...

    Gassho,

    大哲

    #sat2day
    no thing needs to be added

  45. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Daitetsu View Post
    Hello Tai Shi,

    Thanks a lot for all this information.
    Of course, I know who Bodhidharma was - my question was of a more rhetorical nature:
    I am quite sure he was not member of the SZBA, yet we'd all agree he was authentic, right?
    I don't care about any associations or organizations. That's just a layer of bureaucracy trying to impose its definition of right and wrong.

    When it comes to Zen, what I care about is what Jundo, other Zen teachers and Sangha members have to say. I don't need SZBA's approval though...

    Gassho,

    大哲

    #sat2day
    It’s not about approval, but about recognition. Imagine you are a graduated architect and then no one in the architecture world would recognize your qualifications or consider you an architect or accept any work you do as valid even though you are trained and capable. Something like that…

    Sat Today
    Bion
    美音

    -------------------------
    Please consider whatever I might say as my own ideas, experiences and understanding, and not zen doctrine.
    Join me on Insight Timer
    Help me feed those in need by joining my Share The Meal team HERE

  46. #46

    Discrimination in the SZBA: Small Changes, BIG BARRIERS

    Quote Originally Posted by Bion View Post
    It’s not about approval, but about recognition. Imagine you are a graduated architect and then no one in the architecture world would recognize your qualifications or consider you an architect or accept any work you do as valid even though you are trained and capable. Something like that…

    Sat Today
    I hereby declare myself a Zen Guru and demand all the accolades associated with it.

    Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

  47. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Jishin View Post
    I hereby declare myself a Zen Guru and demand all the accolades associated with it.

    Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH
    I won’t even pretend I understand what you mean there.

    Sat Today
    Bion
    美音

    -------------------------
    Please consider whatever I might say as my own ideas, experiences and understanding, and not zen doctrine.
    Join me on Insight Timer
    Help me feed those in need by joining my Share The Meal team HERE

  48. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Bion View Post
    I won’t even pretend I understand what you mean there.

    Sat Today
    I tried for membership at SBZA but they didn't believe me I am a Zen Guru. They must be doing something right.

    Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

  49. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Jishin View Post
    I tried for membership at SBZA but they didn't believe me I am a Zen Guru. They must be doing something right.
    You are just lucky that our standards are so low, that we let you in here.

    It is fine to discriminate against someone, in my book, if they truly cannot fulfill a role: I do not think that there should be blind airplane pilots or surgeons (there can, however, be blind doctors who do other medical roles, or blind teachers of aerodynamics).

    The point is only that good priests, who can demonstrate that they are functioning as good priests, are being kept out for no good reason because of physical factors that have nothing to do with their ability to function as good priests. The organization claims to certify who are qualified Soto Zen priests from who are not, so it should not exclude folks on such basis.

    Gassho, J

    STlah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  50. #50

    Discrimination in the SZBA: Small Changes, BIG BARRIERS

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    You are just lucky that our standards are so low, that we let you in here.

    It is fine to discriminate against someone, in my book, if they truly cannot fulfill a role: I do not think that there should be blind airplane pilots or surgeons (there can, however, be blind doctors who do other medical roles, or blind teachers of aerodynamics).

    The point is only that good priests, who can demonstrate that they are functioning as good priests, are being kept out for no good reason because of physical factors that have nothing to do with their ability to function as good priests. The organization claims to certify who are qualified Soto Zen priests from who are not, so it should not exclude folks on such basis.

    Gassho, J

    STlah
    The crux of the matter is money. I fully agree that anyone that is able and willing should be a priest but tend to think that the current system excludes candidates that could do the job because of a poorly funded system and not due to evil intent.

    No one is willing to pony up the cash to develop a system that tests candidates for ability regardless of disability.

    You are a great teacher and if you transmit to someone, I respect that. It’s good as gold in my book but not so to joe zen practitioner down the street unless standardized credentialing can be accepted by all.

    If someone sets foot in a hospital in the US, you can be reasonably assured that the doctor you will see has met minimum standards regardless of whether he/she went to Harvard Medical School or a Medical School in the Caribbean since in the end one can not practice medicine without demonstrating minimum standards.

    I am not privy to the education of priests, but for the time being it seems that there are more traditional zen centers than the ones like Treeleaf and so they get to write the rules. This should change with time as places like Treeleaf continue producing good priests.

    Again, I think the discrimination right now is more a function of lack of resources to know who is worth their salt or not. They just do what they know with the current resources and not due to evil intent.

    I always go back to my sports analogy because I think its simple. To get a job in the NBA I would very likely have to be able to dribble, shoot well and dunk. I can’t do any of these thinks so I will never play in the NBA. The case can be made that a handicaped player should play in the NBA if he does not have an arm or leg if he/she is able to do the job.

    In the case of doctors, it takes a lot of money to determine if an impaired physician can practice medicine. An impaired surgeon can be retrained to do anesthesia or psychiatry. It’s all about money.

    Gassho, Jishin, ST
    Last edited by Jishin; 02-09-2022 at 02:27 AM.

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