Muho on Pain

[Jundo]

Bion pointed me to an especially powerful teaching by Muho, former Abbot of Antaiji and a friend of Treeleaf, on sitting with pain. It is a teaching on radical equanity, and I recommend it.

His point is that, in cases of ordinary pain while sitting (i.e., not pain that represents that you are doing something that is damaging to the body in the short or long term), it is best to yield to the pain ... neither run from it nor to take pride in fighting it.

Lovely.



Gassho, J

STLah

[Tairin]

That’s a valuable message from Muho


Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Tosei]

Also, by substituting so many of his words, a powerful message about our efforts to embrace those who cannot « do » zen training the way « it should be done ». Radical equanimity indeed.

Gassho.


((sat))

[Suuko]

This is very interesting. It is so true with emotions and thoughts as well. The more we fight them, the more they stick to us. We should just succumb to whatever comes up. This was a powerful video.

Gassho,
Sat-Lah,
Suuko.

[Anchi]

Lovely !

Thank you !

Gassho

[Kiri]

During the last Rohatsu retreat my mind, after some sitting, was focused on how stiff my muscles were. I later realized that maybe it's a good idea to spend some time stretching before and after each sitting period. Muho himself is doing yoga before sitting. I am sure this helps a little bit.

Gassho, Kiri
Sat/Lah

[Nengei]

Gassho,
Nengei
Sat today. LAH.

[houst0n]

If I am too far back on the cushion, left leg is asleep after 20 minutes. If I am too far forward, right leg is asleep after 20 minutes. Then, I found the middle way.

Gassho,
Neil
./sat

[Rousei]

The more I sit the more I experience the jiggle before you begin is so important! Rock side to side, front to back, to get into a comfortable position and then begin. Otherwise, my sits are typically cut short due to painful sensations.

Gassho
Rousei
ST

[Bion]

The more I sit the more I experience the jiggle before you begin is so important! Rock side to side, front to back, to get into a comfortable position and then begin. Otherwise, my sits are typically cut short due to painful sensations.

Gassho
Rousei
ST

Also, zafu size, arch of the back, lack of tenseness (not tension) and placement of the foot on the thigh.

Sat Today

[Hokin]

Very helpful. Thank you Jundo & Bion, for sharing this.
Reminded me a bit of this Pali Sutta from the Samyutta Nikaya...may I suggest you this quick read of one teaching from the very mouth (perhaps) of Good Ol' Shakyamuni himself? Or at least, from the very mouth of, who knows... Ananda...?
Here:
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.31/en/...ipt=Devanagari

Enjoy...and hope this can deepen and strenghten further still this late, beautiful message from Muho!

Gassho.
Hokin.
SAT&LAH.

[Hokin]

There is this sentence that Muho said that echoed so deep within me...he said "We cannot deal with Zazen!"
Huge!

Gassho.
Hokin.
SAT&LAH.

[Tomás ESP]

This kind of advice not only has been beneficial for my physical pain, but especially for my emotional pain. Just like Jundo's blender in session 1 for beginners, when I recognize I am caught in the blender, I return to just sitting

Gassho, Tomás
Sat

[Anchi]

Although I am addicted to zazen and really enjoy sitting for hours.
l am sitting 4 hrs per day ( plus ) in one session is enough to take breaks for Kinhin.

It all depends on where the pain is? Knees, lower leg, neck or back ?
Certainly I advise yoga stretch before sitting and also leg massage both before and after any period of sitting.
Try to limit sitting to max 1 hr. or 45 min.
Also, remember it is not necessary to sit crossed legged.
You can sit in a chair, you can lay down, you can sit classic knees bent zazen style, and you can also do Burmese style.
In fact, it is good to vary it and not to put strain on the body.
That is not Ahimsa if we are forcing the body to sit and making pain for ourselves.

The Buddha clearly stated that meditation can be done sitting, laying or standing! So try to vary.

It is not endless sitting that gives enlightenment, but the mind dropping away to reveal true nature.


l talking about my own experience....maybe this helps....

Sorry for running a bit long.

Gassho

[Onrin]

Thank you for posting that.
Cyclists/runners/lifters etc... call it going into your pain cave.
As a personal trainer I frequently give similar advice to clients, calling it "temporary discomfort", to distinguish from pain that may be injurious.
Being new to zazen I find it more challenging on the zafu than biking up a mountain, so figure I need to sit more!
Gassho,
Chris
Sat

[Shoki]

One advantage, if you can call it that, to having two different chronic pain conditions, is that, while I may have some pain during zazen, I also have pain driving a car, cooking, playing the ukulele, walking, sleeping and putting my shoes on. So pain during zazen doesn't really matter that much.

Muho's video reminds me a bit of Toni Bernhard's book, How To Be Sick, which we covered a while back, where the thing is this attitude of fight, fight, fight and claim some victory against pain and illness may not be the best approach.

The only time pain during zazen became a bit of an issue was during the final hours of Rohatsu where, during the breaks and video talks, I'd lie down, legs elevated with an ice pack on my lower back. (I hope that wasn't cheating!).

Gassho
st-lah
Shoki

[Jundo]

The only time pain during zazen became a bit of an issue was during the final hours of Rohatsu where, during the breaks and video talks, I'd lie down, legs elevated with an ice pack on my lower back. (I hope that wasn't cheating!).

No, not cheating, and you could have reclined or stood up even before getting into the situation. If one has non-gaining mind, posture is not vital.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Onkai]

Thank you, Jundo and Bion, for the video. I'm glad for that perspective. There are going to be things out of control and a practice that allows for that is going to be helpful.

Gassho,
Onkai
Sat/lah

[Jundo]

No, not cheating, and you could have reclined or stood up even before getting into the situation. If one has non-gaining mind, posture is not vital.

Gassho, J

STLah

Actually, this is where I disagree a bit with Muho and many in Japan who are into very "correct" posture, especially emphasizing Lotus postures.

I believe that a balanced, stable, comfortable posture facilitates a balanced, stable, calm mind ... but it is not strictly the key to that, nor "one size fits all." Yes, body and mind are connected, so that balance and stability in posture aids balance and stability in mind.

The Lotus Posture is wonderful, for those who can manage (without long term knee damage), and I sit Full Lotus once a month or so, but mostly Half Lotus or Burmese now ... but there are many postures, suited to different bodies, which are balanced, stable, comfortable. That is why we very regularly recommend this book around here:

Book Recommendation: - THE POSTURE OF MEDITATION
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...-OF-MEDITATION

Find the postures right for you, and sometimes they evolve with time or even during a single day ...

Gassho, J

STLah

[Shoki]

Thanks for the response, Jundo as I was going to ask about your stance on posture vs. other teachers who are more adamant about it.

As for personal experience, I badly sprained my ankle playing basketball many years ago and I had to switch from usual half-lotus to Seiza for about a year.

When I went back to half-lotus again, I really saw no difference in my practice changing postures and then going back again.


Gassho
STLAH
Shoki