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Thread: Has single-pointed concetration i.e. object-based concentration a place in Soto-ZEN?

  1. #1

    Has single-pointed concetration i.e. object-based concentration a place in Soto-ZEN?

    Hi!

    I know that our formal practice Zazen (or also Kinhin) are non-objective "meditation-practices"
    where single-pointed concentration has no place, as default.
    But I just wonder what is the general stance of Soto-ZEN regarding this topic?

    For instance it is oftentimes recommended to also "practice" informal "off the cushion"
    when we do for instance day to day activities, such as washing the dishes -> "when you wash the dishes, just wash the dishes."
    Might be here the mindful use of single-pointed concentration beneficial, where the range of objects are
    the dish, one's hands, the activity and sensations (water over hands), for instance?
    I think Shinzen Young oftentimes recommends single-point focus when doing "off the cushion" practice.
    Another example where a more object-oriented focus seems to help me is when I am in the gym lifting within a set.
    Keeping a narrow focus on the sensations of the targeted muscles, the (muscle)-pain, the posture, technique and breathing provides me with a better focus and "zoom in" than keeping a
    broader "zen-like" awareness.
    As oppsosed to the above mentioned a "zen-like" broader non-objective awareness seems to do a better job for me during set breaks.

    So it seems that depending on the usecase there might be situations where an objective concentration is more practical than a non-objective one and vice versa.

    However, after I had practiced (before joining Treeleaf) 2 years a samatha-vipassana based meditation with very rigid single-pointed-concentration based instructions on what to do with the mind/focus while practicing, I can also see the pitfalls with objective concentration:
    First of all it felt very goal-oriented to me and also very "willpower-eating".
    Another aspect is that it always seemed to me a bit like a crutch or like escaping the present situation like it really is by directing and redirecting over and over again your attention on your given meditation object - basically like cover or curtain one would put over what really is NOW.
    In this sense it always seemed a bit "unreal" to me.

    However, there might be usecases where single-point concentration is helpful and maybe even needed and I wonder in genral, what role it does play within the tradition of Soto-ZEN at all, if any?

    Thanks for reading and curious to find out more about this topic

    Gassho
    Chris
    Sat today

  2. #2
    Hi Chris,

    First, we are not particularly seeking to attain deep concentration states, deep jhana (I actually believe that Shikantaza is closer to what is known as Sutta Jhana, rather than the highly concentrated Visuddhimagga form) or the like. Our emphasis is radical equanimity and non-gaining which sometimes may be samadhi, sometimes something else.

    So, we may have an object or place to rest the attention, such as the breath, posture, palms of the hand in Mudra or the like, but we do so very lightly. We are not seeking to intently hold the object. Likewise if sitting in "open awareness."

    Now, off the cushion, one can experiment with many things, such as you describe washing dishes or lifting weights. Do as you wish. However, for it to be Shikantaza, one would simply wash with great equanimity, just washing, forgetting past or future and even "clean vs. dirty." Hold the moment lightly. It is not so intense. Likewise, when I go to the gym, I do not "zoom in" on anything, and just lift without gaining idea if I want to do so Shikantaza style.

    At other times, I don't worry about Zen or Buddhism, and I am like any other husband trying to get the messy dishes done before bed, and I am any other guy in the gym just trying to get through sets and lose a couple of pounds.

    Sorry to run long.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  3. #3
    Hi

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Hi Chris,

    First, we are not particularly seeking to attain deep concentration states, deep jhana (I actually believe that Shikantaza is closer to what is known as Sutta Jhana, rather than the highly concentrated Visuddhimagga form) or the like. Our emphasis is radical equanimity and non-gaining which sometimes may be samadhi, sometimes something else.

    I have not much understanding yet, but intuitively I got to say that I agree wholeheartedly.
    Jhanas how they are partially aimed for in Theravada, seem to be just another experience. In this case even somehow
    artificially brought by and from a certain viewpoint regarding the mindset (in my opinion) not so far away from when someone
    takes some psychedellics to "experience" something - it just does not feel right ot better said it just does not feel real to me and also
    just like another bucket point one is striving to attain (there are even different stages/levels of Jhanas, as you likely know already) - something our human brain anways wants to do all the time i.e. striving for...attaining...striving for something else again...attaining...and so on...

    So, we may have an object or place to rest the attention, such as the breath, posture, palms of the hand in Mudra or the like, but we do so very lightly. We are not seeking to intently hold the object. Likewise if sitting in "open awareness."

    Ok, so one might have (temporarily) a sort of range of objects to focus on, but the focus would be not super rigid and more soft - is this what you mean?


    Now, off the cushion, one can experiment with many things, such as you describe washing dishes or lifting weights. Do as you wish. However, for it to be Shikantaza, one would simply wash with great equanimity, just washing, forgetting past or future and even "clean vs. dirty." Hold the moment lightly. It is not so intense. Likewise, when I go to the gym, I do not "zoom in" on anything, and just lift without gaining idea if I want to do so Shikantaza style.


    At other times, I don't worry about Zen or Buddhism, and I am like any other husband trying to get the messy dishes done before bed, and I am any other guy in the gym just trying to get through sets and lose a couple of pounds.

    I get this, meaning of course I also allow myself to live my life most of the time as a normal human in terms of not thinking about Zen, informal practice, buddhism at all...for example when I am studying, working or also when I am working out in the Gym.
    Just sometimes I might like to experiment with some things and do briefly a kind of informal practice when you want to call it like that.
    And here I wonder how to at best do it in a Soto-Zen context, when one would like to do it at all.
    I sense that basically there is room for concentration, but it is not the goal to make it super intense at any cost and maybe keeping a slight broader focus is better - like even in my example in my opening post when doing a set in the gym: Even there I jave not single point of focus but several things where I let my attention wander kind of softly, but on the other side I also would not let myself drag away too much by something totally unrelated like thinking in the midst of a set what I will eat later at home...if that makes sense.


    Sorry to run long.

    Gassho, J

    STLah

    Alright, thanks a lot for answering
    I realize that my question is quite vague to begin with - I guess I just wanted to get some idea on how the aspect concentration is viewed in the context and tradition of Soto-Zen.
    Also maybe how the 8th point of the noble eightfold path i.e. 'right concentration' is view in Soto-Zen.
    By the way, is the noble eightfold path of importance in the Soto-Zen school or rather not so much?

    Also sorry for running long.

    edit:
    Will such topics be also discussed either in the 'sit along'-series at some point or do you maybe also discuss it in your book 'The Zen Master's Dance' that I gifted myself for Christmas a few days ago D:
    I just think that some context on how certain buddhist points are seen (sometimes differently compared to older traditions) in Soto-Zen and why are quite interesting, at least for me

    Gassho
    Chris
    Sat today
    Last edited by Zrebna; 12-24-2021 at 01:51 PM.

  4. #4
    By the way, is the noble eightfold path of importance in the Soto-Zen school or rather not so much?
    Hi Chris

    In Mahayana Buddhism, the eightfold path tends to be presented in terms of ethics, meditation and wisdom, which includes all of the eight. Right Concentration would be approaching Zazen in the right way.

    Concentration is not something we either aim for in Sōtō Zen or try to avoid. We sit Shikantaza to sit with whatever is going on at the time, whether we have good concentration or poor concentration. Often concentration will improve through sitting but it is not something we are aiming for. Sitting is just sitting. Anything else is adding unnecessary extras.

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    -sattoday-

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Zrebna View Post
    Hi




    Alright, thanks a lot for answering
    I realize that my question is quite vague to begin with - I guess I just wanted to get some idea on how the aspect concentration is viewed in the context and tradition of Soto-Zen.
    Also maybe how the 8th point of the noble eightfold path i.e. 'right concentration' is view in Soto-Zen.
    By the way, is the noble eightfold path of importance in the Soto-Zen school or rather not so much?

    Also sorry for running long.

    edit:
    Will such topics be also discussed either in the 'sit along'-series at some point or do you maybe also discuss it in your book 'The Zen Master's Dance' that I gifted myself for Christmas a few days ago D:
    I just think that some context on how certain buddhist points are seen (sometimes differently compared to older traditions) in Soto-Zen and why are quite interesting, at least for me

    Gassho
    Chris
    Sat today
    Hi Chris,

    In Chinese-Japanese, the 8th spoke of the Eightfold Path is 正定, which does not necessarily translate into "Right Concentration." The Chinese character 定 means "to settle, to stabilize, to put in order," but not really "to concentrate." It can have that meaning, or samadhi, or just meditation.

    http://hanzidb.org/character/%E5%AE%9A

    Here is a talk series on the Eightfold Path ...

    https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/foru...-Buddha-Basics

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 12-24-2021 at 03:29 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  6. #6
    @Kokuu: Thanks a lot for your input on this one

    Also thanks Jundo for the info what the 8th aspect would roughly mean in Chinese-Japanese - I like this translation actually a lot.
    And nice one on the "Buddha-Basics"-Series here on Treeleaf - I will make sure to also work my way through this one

    Gassho
    Chris
    Sat today

  7. #7
    If you are totally lost in some dream or delusion that’s wrong concentration but if you wake up - boom - that’s right concentration. Which is open spacious awareness of just this just now

    Sat/lah


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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    Rich
    MUHYO
    無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

    https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

  8. #8
    Member Hokin's Avatar
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Hi Chris,

    In Chinese-Japanese, the 8th spoke of the Eightfold Path is 正定, which does not necessarily translate into "Right Concentration." The Chinese character 定 means "to settle, to stabilize, to put in order," but not really "to concentrate." It can have that meaning, or samadhi, or just meditation.

    http://hanzidb.org/character/%E5%AE%9A

    Here is a talk series on the Eightfold Path ...

    https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/foru...-Buddha-Basics

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    This makes perfect sense, Jundo...In fact also the original word in the pali suttas that westerners have commonly translated to "concentration" is " samadhi", which in fact doesn't really translates to that...We could very well translate it to something like "awakenness" or also "whole awareness" or else "non- dualistic perception"or many other much better and less misleading ways than "concentration", a term that, not only to me, suggests some 'object perceived by a subject'-like practice, with way too much not being taken in by a somewhat more whole-embrace-like awareness in the here and now....'samadhi' resembles very much more one open limitless blue sky that can verily be invaded by whatever kind and quantity of clouds, regardless, being this sky-with-clouds-&-all imperturbably blue anyways...'concentration' feels very much something like the subject wants to keep the blue of the sky completely spotless and whatever cloud passes by is being intently avoided and possibly annihilated, at least sensorily speaking, so that only one-side of reality is accepted, while the other is being avoided and actually, at least subconsciously, despised...sounds preety much like one hell of a good amount of dukha is perpetrated, ain't it?
    I hope I have made my point clear, aware as I am that my english is somewhat elementary...sorry for that.
    Also sorry if I have written too much. I'll try be more concise next time.

    Gassho.
    Hokin.
    SAT&LAH.
    法 金
    (Dharma)(Metal)
    Wisdom Is Compassion & Compassion Is Wisdom.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Hokin View Post
    This makes perfect sense, Jundo...In fact also the original word in the pali suttas that westerners have commonly translated to "concentration" is " samadhi", which in fact doesn't really translates to that...We could very well translate it to something like "awakenness" or also "whole awareness" or else "non- dualistic perception"or many other much better and less misleading ways than "concentration", a term that, not only to me, suggests some 'object perceived by a subject'-like practice, with way too much not being taken in by a somewhat more whole-embrace-like awareness in the here and now....'samadhi' resembles very much more one open limitless blue sky that can verily be invaded by whatever kind and quantity of clouds, regardless, being this sky-with-clouds-&-all imperturbably blue anyways...'concentration' feels very much something like the subject wants to keep the blue of the sky completely spotless and whatever cloud passes by is being intently avoided and possibly annihilated, at least sensorily speaking, so that only one-side of reality is accepted, while the other is being avoided and actually, at least subconsciously, despised...sounds preety much like one hell of a good amount of dukha is perpetrated, ain't it?
    I hope I have made my point clear, aware as I am that my english is somewhat elementary...sorry for that.
    Also sorry if I have written too much. I'll try be more concise next time.

    Gassho.
    Hokin.
    SAT&LAH.
    Thank you!

    This is in keeping with my understanding of how the much later Visuddhimagga commentary, now so influential in Theravada Buddhism, changed the original meaning of Jhana into a practice of deep concentration states.

    First, I recently read an interesting comment by Dr. Bronkhorst (in his paper "Karma," although I he goes into more detail on this in some of his other writings). He speaks about how the additional Jhana that emphasize rather other-worldly and extreme states, after the first 4, are something that snuck back in to meditation practice in later periods:

    Probably the most important among these non-authentic elements are certain meditational states that are sometimes rejected but elsewhere presented as essential elements on the path to enlightenment. Most of the canonical passages (presumably the authentic ones) mention four meditational states, called dhyana in Sanskrit, jhana in Pali. Other texts add a number of further states that are never called dhyana/jhana but carry altogether different names. Among these additional states, often five in number, we find the ‘realm of nothingness’ and the ‘realm of neither ideation nor nonideation’. The series culminates in the ‘cessation of ideation and feeling’. These names reveal that the emphasis in these additional states, unlike the states called dhyana/jhana, is on the suppression of thoughts and other mental activities. This aim — the suppression of all mental activities — has its place in the more general aim to suppress all activities whatsoever, an aim that we have come to associate with the Jainas and perhaps other non-Buddhist ascetic movement of Greater Magadha.

    Unlike the dhyanas/jhanas, they do not lead to a higher goal (such as the destruction of the taints), and we may be sure that these meditational states, too, found their way into the Buddhist canon from outside and cannot be looked upon as authentic teachings of the Buddha. With only one exception known to me, they are indeed never mentioned in accounts of the Buddha’s enlightenment. On the other hand, they have found a place in the story of the Buddha’s death: the Buddha is supposed to have passed through the four dhyanas and the five additional states before he finally expired in the fourth dhyana.
    I also post from time to time on the difference between Sutta jhanas (as found described in the Suttas themselves, and Visuddhimagga reinterpretations of these, and how Shikantaza happens to echo very closely with the simple equanimity and dropping bliss states of the "4th Jhana" of the Suttas (which, as Bronkhorst states, is actually the highest Jhana of enlightenment in traditional Buddhism). I will report below, pardon the length:

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    ... you might be interested in the history and examination of Jhana and samadhi by Richard Shankman. He makes the argument that the Fourth Jhana, originally the highest, is actually a putting aside of blissful and highly concentrated states in favor of equanimious sitting with a sense of wholeness, at least as described in the Suttas before the Vishudimagga and other commentaries (that were influenced by Bhraman/Hindu practices which the Buddha originally may have rejected) turned the meaning of Jhana to some kinds of deeply concentrated and blissful, even other worldly states:

    "Just Sitting" Shikantaza which we practice at Treeleaf is placed in historical context perhaps closer to the intent of the older Pali Suttas for "open, spacious, aware samadhi which thus brings insight" than other later forms.

    Richard Shankman--a teacher in the insight meditation tradition and the author of the recently released book The Experience of Samadhi--joins us to discuss the various teachings and approaches to what in the Theravada tradition is called samadhi or concentration meditation.

    During this episode Richard shares some of his personal background with samadhi practice and also explains two different forms of deep samadhi, called jhana in the Theravada tradition--one from the time of the Buddha as captured by the Pali Suttas and another which arouse hundreds of years later and which is captured in the authoritative text, the Visuddhimagga. Listen in to find out about these different forms of deep concentration and absorption, which are a hallmark of the Theravada tradition of Buddhism...

    ...

    Discussion with insight meditation teacher and author, Richard Shankman. In this episode we continue to dissect the different kinds of samadhi and their respective fruits--what in the Theravada tradition are called jhana (or "meditative absorption"). According to Shankman there are two ways of approaching the attainment of jhana, one as was taught in the original canonical texts of the Theravada, the Pali Suttas, and the other from the later commentaries on the Buddha's teachings, the Vishudimagga. As a result we get two different forms of jhana--one called Sutta jhana and the other called Vishudimagga jhana. This two-fold understanding, though geeky, shines light on the different methods of practicing both samadhi and vipassana meditation and offers a unitary model for understanding the two together.

    His book:

    https://books.google.co.jp/books/abo...on&redir_esc=y

    Interview 1

    https://art19.com/shows/buddhist-gee...e-dbf132e13cce

    Interview 2

    https://art19.com/shows/buddhist-gee...d-611262bfad41
    [The Visuddhimagga is a highly influential centuries' old commentary in Theravada Buddhism that, Shankman asserts, gave many practices a very different direction from the Suttas]. The Fourth Jhana in the Pali Suttas was considered the 'summit' of Jhana practice (as the higher "otherworldly" Jhanas, No. 5 to 8, were not encouraged as a kind of 'dead end') and appears to manifest (quoting the sutta descriptions in the book) "an abandoning of pleasure, pain, attractions/aversions, a dropping of both joy and grief", a dropping away of both rapture and bliss states, resulting in a "purity of mindfulness" and "equanimity". Combine this with the fact that, more than a "one pointed mind absorbed into a particular object", there is a "unification of mind" (described as a broader awareness around the object of meditation ... whereby the "mind itself becomes collected and unmoving, but not the objects of awareness, as mindfulness becomes lucid, effortless and unbroken" (See, for examples. pages 82-83 here))

    http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=l...page&q&f=false

    A bit of the discussion of the highest (in Buddhist Practice) "Fourth Jhana", and its emphasis on equanimity while present amid circumstances (and a dropping of bliss states), can be found on page 49 at the above link.

    This is very close to a description of Shikantaza, for example, as dropping all aversions and attractions, finding unification of mind, collected and unmoving, effortless and unbroken, in/as/through/not removed from the life, circumstances, complexities which surround us and are us, sitting still with what is just as it is.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 12-27-2021 at 10:59 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Hokin View Post
    This makes perfect sense, Jundo...In fact also the original word in the pali suttas that westerners have commonly translated to "concentration" is " samadhi", which in fact doesn't really translates to that...We could very well translate it to something like "awakenness" or also "whole awareness" or else "non- dualistic perception"or many other much better and less misleading ways than "concentration", a term that, not only to me, suggests some 'object perceived by a subject'-like practice, with way too much not being taken in by a somewhat more whole-embrace-like awareness in the here and now....'samadhi' resembles very much more one open limitless blue sky that can verily be invaded by whatever kind and quantity of clouds, regardless, being this sky-with-clouds-&-all imperturbably blue anyways...'concentration' feels very much something like the subject wants to keep the blue of the sky completely spotless and whatever cloud passes by is being intently avoided and possibly annihilated, at least sensorily speaking, so that only one-side of reality is accepted, while the other is being avoided and actually, at least subconsciously, despised...sounds preety much like one hell of a good amount of dukha is perpetrated, ain't it?
    I hope I have made my point clear, aware as I am that my english is somewhat elementary...sorry for that.
    Also sorry if I have written too much. I'll try be more concise next time.

    Gassho.
    Hokin.
    SAT&LAH.
    You have described my feeling about Jhanas how they are partially taught in Theravada, but way nicer and easier to understand - thanks for this

    Also thanks for you input Rich, as well as thanks Jundo for all the detailed information about how differently Jhanas are viewed - I for myself intuitively strongly tend to think that indeed Shikantaza is way closer to the Buddha's teachings since nothing is avoided or manipulated - it just feels more real and in fact seems to be similar to how the 4th and actually final Jhana is described.

    Anyways, interesting stuff

    Gassho
    Chris
    Sat today

  11. #11
    Member Hokin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Thank you!

    This is in keeping with my understanding of how the much later Visuddhimagga commentary, now so influential in Theravada Buddhism, changed the original meaning of Jhana into a practice of deep concentration states.

    First, I recently read an interesting comment by Dr. Bronkhorst (in his paper "Karma," although I he goes into more detail on this in some of his other writings). He speaks about how the additional Jhana that emphasize rather other-worldly and extreme states, after the first 4, are something that snuck back in to meditation practice in later periods:



    I also post from time to time on the difference between Sutta jhanas (as found described in the Suttas themselves, and Visuddhimagga reinterpretations of these, and how Shikantaza happens to echo very closely with the simple equanimity and dropping bliss states of the "4th Jhana" of the Suttas (which, as Bronkhorst states, is actually the highest Jhana of enlightenment in traditional Buddhism). I will report below, pardon the length:

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    ... you might be interested in the history and examination of Jhana and samadhi by Richard Shankman. He makes the argument that the Fourth Jhana, originally the highest, is actually a putting aside of blissful and highly concentrated states in favor of equanimious sitting with a sense of wholeness, at least as described in the Suttas before the Vishudimagga and other commentaries (that were influenced by Bhraman/Hindu practices which the Buddha originally may have rejected) turned the meaning of Jhana to some kinds of deeply concentrated and blissful, even other worldly states:

    "Just Sitting" Shikantaza which we practice at Treeleaf is placed in historical context perhaps closer to the intent of the older Pali Suttas for "open, spacious, aware samadhi which thus brings insight" than other later forms.






    Gassho, J

    STLah
    I totally agree...There sure is a somewhat dilution of the original Buddha's meditation instructions mixed with hinduist taste that certainly doesn't fit in there...attainments whatsoever and psychic powers too...(whaaaat?!?)

    Regarding Dr. Bronkhorst statements, well, that's beautifully said...I also highly recomend, to whomsoever might be interested in learning from the original suttas, to check out Venerable Bhante Vimalaramsi at Dammasukha (https://www.dhammasukha.org/)...he has resucitated the Suttavadin branch, old school of the Theravada tradition and, seems to me, does a beautiful and useful job explaining, at the same time that he simplifies, the jhanas and meditation as a whole following just the instructions given in the suttas that, as you, Dr. Bronkhorst and Richard Shankman point out, where much simpler but more fruitful nonetheless, at least when and if some really buddhist attainment (I'd rather call it 'non-attainment-attainment') is concerned.

    And...about Richard Shankman analysis...Yes...that's exacty so. 'Other worldly states' is what hindu yogins in general are always concerned about not the Buddha who gave us a more down to earth practice and experience...also, these same 'other worldly states' are actually sometimes described by Budhha himself, in the suttas, as more dukkha...so, why even bother?

    You said: "Just Sitting" Shikantaza which we practice at Treeleaf is placed in historical context perhaps closer to the intent of the older Pali Suttas for "open, spacious, aware samadhi which thus brings insight" than other later forms.
    And I totally agree! That's why I admire, among other teachers as well, the work that Vimalaramsi is doing...because I find that, through studying the suttas the way Vimalaramsi suggests, could help place Shikantaza in that 'historical context' where it actually belongs, so that Shikantaza should be unanimously reckoned with being the authentic door to the ceasing of dukkha, for that is the way Buddha originally went to realization and therefore taught.

    I recommend reading this sutta where the Buddha explains biographically his search for enlightenment while at the same time elucidates somewhat about the differences between a strenuously hard and goal-oriented practice and one relaxed, down-to-earth, goalless practice...interesting indeed: https://suttacentral.net/mn26/en/bodhi

    Thank you Jundo for all these interesting parallelisms...

    Gassho.
    Hokin.
    SAT.
    法 金
    (Dharma)(Metal)
    Wisdom Is Compassion & Compassion Is Wisdom.

  12. #12
    Member Hokin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zrebna View Post
    You have described my feeling about Jhanas how they are partially taught in Theravada, but way nicer and easier to understand - thanks for this

    Also thanks for you input Rich, as well as thanks Jundo for all the detailed information about how differently Jhanas are viewed - I for myself intuitively strongly tend to think that indeed Shikantaza is way closer to the Buddha's teachings since nothing is avoided or manipulated - it just feels more real and in fact seems to be similar to how the 4th and actually final Jhana is described.

    Anyways, interesting stuff

    Gassho
    Chris
    Sat today


    Gassho.
    Hokin.
    SAT.
    法 金
    (Dharma)(Metal)
    Wisdom Is Compassion & Compassion Is Wisdom.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Hokin View Post
    Regarding Dr. Bronkhorst statements, well, that's beautifully said...I also highly recomend, to whomsoever might be interested in learning from the original suttas, to check out Venerable Bhante Vimalaramsi
    Based on this short talk, I do see the clear commonality. He does still seem to be speaking of reaching the various stages of the 5 through 9 higher Jhanas, followed by Nirvana, but perhaps is putting some more down to earth meaning on those too.



    Total side note:

    Did the Buddha really invent the word ”Samadhi?” I have to check out the claim. I have never heard that before, and I am not finding much backing for that claim. The following is based on nothing more then Wiki-Roshi: "Rhys Davis, about a 100 years ago, stated that Maitri Upanishad is the earliest Sanskrit literary usage of the term 'samadhi', a word also found in early texts of Buddhism." But, scholars dispute the time of the Maitri Upanishad which may be actually from around or after the time of the Buddhist Canon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitrayaniya_Upanishad

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  14. #14
    The OP asks "...
    what is the general stance of Soto-ZEN regarding this topic (single point concentration))?
    .

    I did this type of meditation in my past Tibetan training. Basically, rather than let random thoughts come and go, the practitioner focuses intently one a particular topic or concept. The objective is to gain a deeper understanding or insight into the topic. This week, in our Precept forum, we are discussing Anger. One of our readings recommends that we look deeply at our anger to better understand our anger, and why it arises. I find single-point concentration meditation very useful for something like this.

    Hope this helps.

    Gassho

    Dick

    sat/lah

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Dick View Post
    The OP asks "....

    I did this type of meditation in my past Tibetan training. Basically, rather than let random thoughts come and go, the practitioner focuses intently one a particular topic or concept. The objective is to gain a deeper understanding or insight into the topic. This week, in our Precept forum, we are discussing Anger. One of our readings recommends that we look deeply at our anger to better understand our anger, and why it arises. I find single-point concentration meditation very useful for something like this.

    Hope this helps.

    Gassho

    Dick

    sat/lah
    That sounds different from what we have all been talking about, which is the practice of of inducing deep concentration states through focus on an object. I am not familiar with the practice you describe, Dick, what do the Tibetans call it? It sounds somewhat like a cross between Rinzai Koan phrase introspection and an Insight practice.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  16. #16
    Here's a paradox : to reach the effortlessness and equanimity of fourth Jhana or Shikantaza if we say they're similar, one needs to put a lot of right effort into calming the mind and going through the first, second and third Jhanas. Ultimately stageless, method less and goaless, yet there are stages to go through, though they are not linear. And the goalessness is a goal itself and a result of practice. The samadhi of Shikantaza or Fourth Jhana does not mean realising enlightenment. You got to be able to sit for 2-3 hrs to even stabilize a jhana. Buddha sat for 8 years, Kodo Sawaki sat tremendous amount of time, so as many others in all the traditions. As a lay practitioners who sit max 30 minutes to 1 HR per day we might never have a taste of true Shikantaza. To have deep insighs, to see into our True Nature. So I often asked myself what's the point of teaching Shikantaza to beginners, people who can't commit to "proper" practice for various reasons? But soto zazen is so different to other approaches, and Jundo's way of teaching Shikantaza touches the core of Buddha's teachings. To radically drop all the clinging and rejecting, all the wanting and not wanting, all the seeking, and be with whatever is, is quite difficult indeed. And I believe if we can do it every day for even just 30 minutes, it has a tremendous power of liberation.

    Sorry for running long.

    Gassho,
    Sat

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Inshin View Post
    Here's a paradox : to reach the effortlessness and equanimity of fourth Jhana or Shikantaza if we say they're similar, one needs to put a lot of right effort into calming the mind and going through the first, second and third Jhanas. Ultimately stageless, method less and goaless, yet there are stages to go through, though they are not linear. And the goalessness is a goal itself and a result of practice. The samadhi of Shikantaza or Fourth Jhana does not mean realising enlightenment. You got to be able to sit for 2-3 hrs to even stabilize a jhana. Buddha sat for 8 years, Kodo Sawaki sat tremendous amount of time, so as many others in all the traditions. As a lay practitioners who sit max 30 minutes to 1 HR per day we might never have a taste of true Shikantaza. To have deep insighs, to see into our True Nature. So I often asked myself what's the point of teaching Shikantaza to beginners, people who can't commit to "proper" practice for various reasons? But soto zazen is so different to other approaches, and Jundo's way of teaching Shikantaza touches the core of Buddha's teachings. To radically drop all the clinging and rejecting, all the wanting and not wanting, all the seeking, and be with whatever is, is quite difficult indeed. And I believe if we can do it every day for even just 30 minutes, it has a tremendous power of liberation.
    It is not so complicated. It is the antithesis of complicated.

    Not just 30 minutes, but 3 minutes, 3 seconds, a single moment, half a moment ...
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Inshin View Post
    Here's a paradox : to reach the effortlessness and equanimity of fourth Jhana or Shikantaza if we say they're similar, one needs to put a lot of right effort into calming the mind and going through the first, second and third Jhanas. Ultimately stageless, method less and goaless, yet there are stages to go through, though they are not linear. And the goalessness is a goal itself and a result of practice. The samadhi of Shikantaza or Fourth Jhana does not mean realising enlightenment. You got to be able to sit for 2-3 hrs to even stabilize a jhana. Buddha sat for 8 years, Kodo Sawaki sat tremendous amount of time, so as many others in all the traditions. As a lay practitioners who sit max 30 minutes to 1 HR per day we might never have a taste of true Shikantaza. To have deep insighs, to see into our True Nature. So I often asked myself what's the point of teaching Shikantaza to beginners, people who can't commit to "proper" practice for various reasons? But soto zazen is so different to other approaches, and Jundo's way of teaching Shikantaza touches the core of Buddha's teachings. To radically drop all the clinging and rejecting, all the wanting and not wanting, all the seeking, and be with whatever is, is quite difficult indeed. And I believe if we can do it every day for even just 30 minutes, it has a tremendous power of liberation.

    Sorry for running long.

    Gassho,
    Sat
    Sheesh.. that would turn anyone away from zazen! Pretty far from eyes horizontal, nose vertical.

    Sat Today
    Bion
    -------------------------
    When you put Buddha’s activity into practice, only then are you a buddha. When you act like a fool, then you’re a fool. - Sawaki Roshi

  19. #19
    Jundo asks "...
    what do the Tibetans call it?
    Tibetans utilize meditation very differently than do us Zen folks. To Tibetans, meditation is used to support their primary activity of studying, reading, learning. Once a concept is studied and learned, meditation is used to fully understand the concept and to incorporate it into the practitioners mind. Tibetans (at least the school that I studied with at Sravastiabbey.org) utilize two types of meditation - 1) Stabilizing Meditation - this is used A) to calm the mind at the beginning of a meditation session with a focus on the breath, and B) later in the meditation session to focus the mind on a particular concept or topic, and to maintain that focus. 2) Analytical Meditation - this is used to focus on a broader topic to deepen the practitioners understanding of the topic, to find the deeper meaning of a concept and to gain insight into that concept. Within Analytical Meditation, Tibetans have Object-Oriented Meditation which focuses on understanding and object or concept, and Subject-Oriented Meditation which focuses on transforming the mind to accept and understand a new teaching or idea, During a meditation session, the practitioner moves back and forth among the various types of meditation depending upon their level of understanding.

    Tibetan meditation is not used to understand the "here and now" and certainly not to see things "as they are". The Tibetans focus on escaping the endless cycle of rebirth, and reaching Nirvana. (Tibetans are BIG on rebirth). All of us living today have obviously failed to escape. To Tibetans, the object of this life is to accumulate sufficient karma to avoid being reborn again into this existence, and rather enter Nirvana. To Tibetans, anything happening here and now is relatively irrelevant. Meditation is used to further the practitioners understand of concepts and of themselves, so they can act in ways to generate positive karma.

    Sorry for getting away with my explanation.

    Gassho

    Dick

    sat/lah

  20. #20
    Member Hokin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Based on this short talk, I do see the clear commonality. He does still seem to be speaking of reaching the various stages of the 5 through 9 higher Jhanas, followed by Nirvana, but perhaps is putting some more down to earth meaning on those too.



    Total side note:

    Did the Buddha really invent the word ”Samadhi?” I have to check out the claim. I have never heard that before, and I am not finding much backing for that claim. The following is based on nothing more then Wiki-Roshi: "Rhys Davis, about a 100 years ago, stated that Maitri Upanishad is the earliest Sanskrit literary usage of the term 'samadhi', a word also found in early texts of Buddhism." But, scholars dispute the time of the Maitri Upanishad which may be actually from around or after the time of the Buddhist Canon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitrayaniya_Upanishad

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Yeah...I too find that Vimalaramsi, being a Theravadin, still teaches and spurs disciples to aim and actually reach enlightenment a bit too much for my taste, but I think he also relies on a different and, in that sense, more open and relaxed kind of practice when and if if compared to that, say, of the visuddhimagga followers...I find that his approach, which might represent somewhat more correctly the Buddha's way himself, granted that is apparently extracted directly from the early pali canon, seems to me pretty much more similar to shikantaza than almast every other approach to practice I have found so far, even more similar than dzogchenpa itself, in some way. Especially because of the use Vimalaramsi suggests doing of the samadhi factor, which, he says, mustn't be one pointed absorption, but some more widely open, relaxedly free awareness. Of course there are many differences too, especially for that reason that he, as I said, still stresses the importance of going through realizations and insights, up to the obtention of nibbana and arhatship and all the rest...Also he applies one technique he calls the "6 R's" when it comes to dealing with thoughts that are distracting one from, and here the biggest difference, one's object of meditation, which usually is the breath or the feeling of metta (maitrii, or loving kindness)...so, this is definitely not shikantaza, but still presents some fundamental similarities, at least in the fact that there is this some sort of basic openness and non-grasping factor pervading the practice.
    Another thing that I find very important in the Suttavadin approach Vimalaramsi does is the conjoint use we should do of vipassana and samata....i.e.: being and staying 'alert and relaxed', 'awake and detatched' at the same time. Sort of both 'embracing and letting go' at once. I remember Kodo Sawaki's disciple Taisen Deshimaru stressing this a lot too!
    And regarding the 5 to 9 higher jhanas, if I don't remember wrong, he says Buddha colled them arupa jhanas, in the sense that had to do with the formless realm, and they were 4: the realms of infinite space, of infinite consciousness, of nothingness and of neither preception nor non-perception. Then there is the ceasing of felling and perception but that would be nibbana itself. Anyways, he says that these four arupa jhanas are just som deepening of the fourth rupa jhana which is in turn the realm (and the practice) of equanimity (pali: upekkha, sansk.: upeksha). So, again, Vimalaramsi finds that the Buddha was trying to make us practice the more equanimous way above all. As Buddha himself taught in various pali suttas about meditation: "non-grasping leads to freedom...regarding all contacts (sights, sounds, smells, flavours, tactiles and thoughts) with equanimity, without favoring nor opposing anything".
    So...that is the key, to me, here, with all this talk of "one-pointed-absorption-concentration": there can be no place for that inthe Buddha's way f the way that "leads to freedom" is "non-grasping"!

    Regarding the 'Buddha's invention of the word samadhi's' claim, well, I had heard Vimalaramsi say that already, and thought too that sounds quite a daring claim...who knows if he is sayng the truth...I personally don´t know...The upanishads, yes, they are usually lately considered to have come to life after Buddha's death, but still there is no definitive knowledge about that...so...who knows...maybe it's not important at all...but to know what meaning Buddha gave to that word...that is important.

    Anyways.
    I personally find that Shikantaza as Dogen teaches and you, Jundo, is the most effective and more in line to what I think Buddha could have taught...at least for me.
    So...let us Just Sit!!!

    Gassho
    Hokin
    SAT
    法 金
    (Dharma)(Metal)
    Wisdom Is Compassion & Compassion Is Wisdom.

  21. #21
    Thank you, both to Dick and Hokin, for a peak at how our neighbors live. Very interesting.

    Gassho, Jundo

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Based on this short talk, I do see the clear commonality. He does still seem to be speaking of reaching the various stages of the 5 through 9 higher Jhanas, followed by Nirvana, but perhaps is putting some more down to earth meaning on those too.



    Total side note:

    Did the Buddha really invent the word ”Samadhi?” I have to check out the claim. I have never heard that before, and I am not finding much backing for that claim. The following is based on nothing more then Wiki-Roshi: "Rhys Davis, about a 100 years ago, stated that Maitri Upanishad is the earliest Sanskrit literary usage of the term 'samadhi', a word also found in early texts of Buddhism." But, scholars dispute the time of the Maitri Upanishad which may be actually from around or after the time of the Buddhist Canon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitrayaniya_Upanishad

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Thanks for this Jundo. I appreciate the part where he says that we are not trying to reach a level of concentration where we can stop the hindrances. We are actually seeing through the hindrances, on the cushion and off the cushion.

    Gassho,
    Sat today,
    Guish.

    Sent from my M2101K7BNY using Tapatalk
    Has been known as Guish since 2017 on the forum here.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Guish View Post
    Thanks for this Jundo. I appreciate the part where he says that we are not trying to reach a level of concentration where we can stop the hindrances. We are actually seeing through the hindrances, on the cushion and off the cushion.
    That aspect, at least, is precisely like Shikantaza.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    That aspect, at least, is precisely like Shikantaza.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Hi Jundo,

    Dependent origination is mentioned in the video. Is this something we study in Zen as well? I looked it up and came up with the attachment below. I am wondering if it complements the eightfold path or it's an extension of Dukkha.

    Gassho,
    Sat today,
    Guish.


    Sent from my M2101K7BNY using Tapatalk
    Has been known as Guish since 2017 on the forum here.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Guish View Post
    Hi Jundo,

    Dependent origination is mentioned in the video. Is this something we study in Zen as well? I looked it up and came up with the attachment below. I am wondering if it complements the eightfold path or it's an extension of Dukkha.

    Gassho,
    Sat today,
    Guish.


    Sent from my M2101K7BNY using Tapatalk
    An interesting question. Long story short is that this is one of the widely and wildly interpreted teachings in old Buddhism, many versions, many interpretations, the strangest interpretation being that the first 4 apply to a past life, the middle 4 to the present life, and the last 4 to future lives. They make no sense. I happened to be looking at three scholars papers, last month, on the origins ... it is a mess.

    If you ask me, it is not such a mystery: The whole point is how one develops a sense of separate self, with all the suffering (attachments, view of personal life and death etc.) that results.

    So, I feel that it is very obviously similar to some modern models of infant development. Not exactly, but pretty darn close. What do you think of this?

    Buddha-Basics (Part XIV) – The Twelve-Fold Chain
    https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...lve-Fold-Chain

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    That sounds different from what we have all been talking about, which is the practice of of inducing deep concentration states through focus on an object. I am not familiar with the practice you describe, Dick, what do the Tibetans call it? It sounds somewhat like a cross between Rinzai Koan phrase introspection and an Insight practice.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    I think that 'Dick' describes various forms of analytical meditations - it's also objective-based, but does not fall within samatha-practice (strict single-pointed concentration).

    Also thanks Hokin for the link to the recommended Sutta - I have not known this one yet. To be honest, always when I read a Sutta it is quite a hard read from a stilistic point of view - this type of language is just not my cup of tea, but parts of the contents are oftentimes interesting and valueable.
    Despite the for me too "poetic" style of language and the (for me) annoying and hard to read repetitive style, I can always find parts where I just could not believe (in hope xD) that the historical Buddha really has spoken in such ways - for instance:


    One came to meet me and took my bowl and outer robe, another prepared a seat, and another set out water for my feet; however, they addressed me by name and as ‘friend.’
    “Thereupon I told them: ‘Bhikkhus, do not address the Tathāgata by name and as “friend.” The Tathāgata is an Accomplished One, a Fully Enlightened One. "


    I mean, seriously - is this still for real?

    Other than this, even the more down-to-earth Bhantes that I liked (still do) when I have been around a bit through Theravada circles, still do advocate soooooo much striving and aiming for...
    For instance when you look on how Jhanas are being abstracted, then the kind of "endgoal" is to let go/be of everything - no matter if pleasant or unpleasant and so on... this wants to be achieved by at first even adding more and more attachements through the first 3 Jhanas...seems like a way where you could get easily lost along the path...

    The only argument when I have brought up this kind of contradictions of becoming free from attachements and aversions while on the other side having obviously so much attachement to the dhamma and its practice(s), was the old lame counter:

    The only thing which is worth to be strived for is liberation/Buddha's teachings/Dhamma/enlightenment, etc.
    or
    "The only thing that is worth to be desired is the desirelessness"

    Always seemed to me like allowing arbitrarily excpetions where one wants them to allow...I was never able to fully agree with this sorts of thinking.

    I think that one of the reasons Zen resonates well with me is that on the first glance from a noob's perspective (like I am) it seems in comparison to other schools less 'fantastic', 'glamarous', 'spectacular',... but something about it feels from the start of (to me) way more honest, true and real.

    Anyways, sorry for running too long.

    Gassho
    Chris
    Sat today

  27. #27
    After all these years, I find the Zen path even more 'fantastic', 'glamarous', 'spectacular' than I first believed.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Bion View Post
    Sheesh.. that would turn anyone away from zazen! Pretty far from eyes horizontal, nose vertical.

    Sat Today
    Yeah, but it's true, indeed - in order to even develop some proper samtha which might lead to Jhanas or vipassana, one is heavily adviced (rather said required) to practice several hours a day - for most lay practicioners this is simply not possbile - a magic stick where one could turn a 24 hours day into a 50 hours day might be useful xD

    I myself practised before I recently turned to Zen for 2 times 1 hour a day, which is considered from most as the bare minimum and actually just too little to "progress" decently...

    Thus I am delighted that for a formal Zazen-practice oftentimes already 30 minutes are recommended - also Zazen-Practice is just "easier" and feels smoother since directing and redirecting over and over again your entire attention to a sinlge meditation object (like for instance the breath sensations at the entries of your nostrils) takes a lot of willpower which is a finite source as researches have shown by now (ever willpower act depledes glycogen in the brain).

    Hence after a zazen-practice I usually feel "lighter", totally regardless how the zazen went (since it is "allowed" to go "badly" - no matter what is, it is ok) instead of somewhat mentally exhausted as it was sometimes after a streneous samtha-practice of 1 hour or more.
    Even the "good-feeling" samatha-sessions felt somehow off - it just felt not right to me to deliberately switch your attention from your beginning meditation-object to rapture and pleasant feelings (1st Jhana) and hammering on those "good experiences"....


    Anyways, sorry for the sort of ranty post and for running too long.

    Gassho
    Chris
    Sat today

  29. #29
    Sometimes less is more ... and nothing is everything.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Zrebna View Post
    Yeah, but it's true, indeed - in order to even develop some proper samtha which might lead to Jhanas or vipassana, one is heavily adviced (rather said required) to practice several hours a day - for most lay practicioners this is simply not possbile - a magic stick where one could turn a 24 hours day into a 50 hours day might be useful xD

    I myself practised before I recently turned to Zen for 2 times 1 hour a day, which is considered from most as the bare minimum and actually just too little to "progress" decently...

    Thus I am delighted that for a formal Zazen-practice oftentimes already 30 minutes are recommended - also Zazen-Practice is just "easier" and feels smoother since directing and redirecting over and over again your entire attention to a sinlge meditation object (like for instance the breath sensations at the entries of your nostrils) takes a lot of willpower which is a finite source as researches have shown by now (ever willpower act depledes glycogen in the brain).

    Hence after a zazen-practice I usually feel "lighter", totally regardless how the zazen went (since it is "allowed" to go "badly" - no matter what is, it is ok) instead of somewhat mentally exhausted as it was sometimes after a streneous samtha-practice of 1 hour or more.
    Even the "good-feeling" samatha-sessions felt somehow off - it just felt not right to me to deliberately switch your attention from your beginning meditation-object to rapture and pleasant feelings (1st Jhana) and hammering on those "good experiences"....


    Anyways, sorry for the sort of ranty post and for running too long.

    Gassho
    Chris
    Sat today
    A good thing Zazen is the goal in itself.. Not any sensations coming from it, or any mental state, inner peace or anything like that. No progress to be made, no being good or bad at it..

    Sat Today
    Bion
    -------------------------
    When you put Buddha’s activity into practice, only then are you a buddha. When you act like a fool, then you’re a fool. - Sawaki Roshi

  31. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Bion View Post
    Not any sensations coming from it, or any mental state, inner peace or anything like that. No progress to be made, no being good or bad at it..
    And thus the Greatest State ... Peace both in and out ... and everything like that.

    No progress to be made is truly getting somewhere! And that's GOOD!
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  32. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    After all these years, I find the Zen path even more 'fantastic', 'glamarous', 'spectacular' than I first believed.
    This sounds good and encouraging to me

    Gassho
    Chris
    Sat today

  33. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Bion View Post
    A good thing Zazen is the goal in itself.. Not any sensations coming from it, or any mental state, inner peace or anything like that. No progress to be made, no being good or bad at it..

    Sat Today
    Yeah, and that's why practicing Zazen feels to me in itself already quite liberating and freeing.

    Gassho
    Chris
    Sat today

  34. #34
    Member Hokin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guish View Post
    Hi Jundo,

    Dependent origination is mentioned in the video. Is this something we study in Zen as well? I looked it up and came up with the attachment below. I am wondering if it complements the eightfold path or it's an extension of Dukkha.

    Gassho,
    Sat today,
    Guish.


    Sent from my M2101K7BNY using Tapatalk
    Hello Guish!
    For whatever maymatter my opinion, 'dependent origination' is the Buddha’s way to analyze and explain how the ego-centered identification in the world comes about. It shows how cause and effect is at the root of everything especially in one’s mind. Every second we literally ‘make-up’ our sense of self, our sense of ‘I, me, mine’, and that is being brought to life and dying and been born again and dying the following instant once more, again and again, all the time...forever...until we can see through that whole process thoroughly and realize that it all is but, as I personally like to call it, a ‘convenient construct’. Here we can fathom how the continuous chain of birth and death (samsara) is perpetrated, and once we can really clarify the three seals of existence (dukkha-dissatisfatoriness, anatta-impersonality, anicca-impermanence) that are underlying the whole dependent origination process, we can be free of birth and death (nibbana) by seeing that nothing of that which we call ‘I’ is some real, consitently fundamental essence in any case, but a process, a construct that is born and dies all the time thousands of times per second, and also we can see that it is all marked by the three seals of existence.
    Anyways.
    The Buddha taught in the suttas that we can’t, as practitioners, work in any really easy, direct way with the first 7 links up to ‘feeling’, because we can’t help but ‘let it be’ for now, because they are factors already, pardon me the oxymoron, temporarily permanent and, psychologically speaking, they are subconscious. They are like the 'built-in apps' in the new cell-phone we just bought, take them away at once and it dies out! Hehehehe…Take the 6th, for instance: feeling. In traditional buddhism, and we see it in chain of dependent origination, feeling is caused by 'contact' which is of 6 kinds: eye-contact, ear-contact, nose-contact, tongue-contact, body-contact and mind-contact). So, all we see, hear, smell, taste, touch and think causes a feeling, which in turn is of 3 kinds: pleasant, unpleasant and neutral. 'Contact' we can't manage really, because most of the time we can't control what we see, hear, smell, etc...Maybe there is something we can do with feeling, and that is to take it all with equanimity, whether it be pleasant, unpleasant or neutral. But the eighth, ‘craving’ (in pali is ‘trishnaa’ which literally means ‘thirst’-for more!), well, with craving we really can work with!
    Vimalaramsi and Buddha, long before him in the suttas, teach that craving manifests as some sort of a tension in the practitioner’s body-mind (the two are really one!). So we recognize the tension and we let go that same tension and also we physically and mentally relax that tension so that there can be no attachment or grasping (upadana, literally: ‘fire’) which is the result, the effect of craving. Vimalaramsi teaches that craving is the ‘I-like-it, I-don’t-like-it’ mind we apply on 'feeling' and that attachment or grasping is all the thoughts and opinions that we 'attach' to that very same craving to justify why we like or not something...Thus perpetrating the whole'I'-dentification system.
    Then, after 'attachment', comes ‘becoming’ which in reality is simply the habitual reactions we apply at things, persons and situations.
    And finally 'becoming' causes 'birth' and this in turn causes aging, sickness, death and all suffering (dukkha).
    This whole process takes infinitesimally small fractions of a second and it is not to be simply viewed as, for example, the process of ‘birth and death’ of a whole ‘incarnated’ entity, but as the ‘birth and death’ of the 'sense of self' itself (the thought of identity, the ‘I, me, mine’ thing) which, as I said, happens numberless times in each second.
    Actually, I find, the only thing that in reality seems to ever come to birth and subsequently die, is only the thought of 'I, me, mine'.
    So...what really matters in this is the practice we can actively do on craving (in general the cause of dukkha) to calm down the whole process and see through these fabrications and attain liberation from that.
    I hope this reflection may help elucidate somewhat the whole matter.

    Gassho.
    Hokin.
    SAT&LAH.
    法 金
    (Dharma)(Metal)
    Wisdom Is Compassion & Compassion Is Wisdom.

  35. #35
    Member Hokin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    And thus the Greatest State ... Peace both in and out ... and everything like that.

    No progress to be made is truly getting somewhere! And that's GOOD!
    Exactly so! I totally agree! That's why we are all here!


    Gassho.
    Hokin.
    SAT&LAH.
    法 金
    (Dharma)(Metal)
    Wisdom Is Compassion & Compassion Is Wisdom.

  36. #36
    Member Hokin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Sometimes less is more ... and nothing is everything.
    Exactly so!
    We could say that, correct me if I am wrong, like in many other spheres of life, it is not at all a matter of quantity but of quality!
    Moreover, if we keep on practicing shikantaza even off the cushion, well, then every moment is zazen and everywhere is zendo!

    Gassho.
    Hokin.
    SAT&LAH.
    法 金
    (Dharma)(Metal)
    Wisdom Is Compassion & Compassion Is Wisdom.

  37. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Hokin View Post
    Hello Guish!
    For whatever maymatter my opinion, 'dependent origination' is the Buddha’s way to analyze and explain how the ego-centered identification in the world comes about. ...
    Hi Hokin,

    We Zen folks really have to avoid getting into intellectual wheel spinning and debates, but I did enjoy your long presentation. There is one statement I disagreed (or, more specifically, disagreed-not-disagreed) with:

    The Buddha taught in the suttas that we can’t, as practitioners, work in any really easy, direct way with the first 7 links up to ‘feeling’, because we can’t help but ‘let it be’ for now, because they are factors already, pardon me the oxymoron, temporarily permanent and, psychologically speaking, they are subconscious. They are like the 'built-in apps' in the new cell-phone we just bought, take them away at once and it dies out! Hehehehe…
    There is some Wholeness embodied in Zazen that leaps right through all 12 links and then some. Hard to express, but a flowing right through action, consciousness, name/form and all the rest ... including ignorance.

    The reason I say "disagree-no-disagree" is because, you are right, this also does not, and we cannot escape these while alive (except perhaps in a coma or such.

    They are yet are not, just as you and I are yet are not ... mountains are mountains yet not, thus mountains again. We do not escape yet fully escape.

    So, Zen folks know how to make a living and thorough escape of the "I."

    Sorry to run long.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  38. #38
    Member Hokin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Hi Hokin,

    We Zen folks really have to avoid getting into intellectual wheel spinning and debates, but I did enjoy your long presentation. There is one statement I disagreed (or, more specifically, disagreed-not-disagreed) with:



    There is some Wholeness embodied in Zazen that leaps right through all 12 links and then some. Hard to express, but a flowing right through action, consciousness, name/form and all the rest ... including ignorance.

    The reason I say "disagree-no-disagree" is because, you are right, this also does not, and we cannot escape these while alive (except perhaps in a coma or such.

    They are yet are not, just as you and I are yet are not ... mountains are mountains yet not, thus mountains again. We do not escape yet fully escape.

    So, Zen folks know how to make a living and thorough escape of the "I."

    Sorry to run long.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Yes, Jundo...I understand what you mean, and I agree with you.
    I too find all those explanations somewhat 'too much'...but I thought it would be interesting share it because Guish asked to know something more about that whole dependent origination thing.

    I should have clarified, as I thought I would, that this is just a more theravada explanation of the twelve links, and also that, probably right because of that, just upayas...especially that part on the 'relax-craving-tension-work-out'.

    In zen we just sit...and everything is already complete.
    Utterly complete even when it feels it isn't and we righly so adjust and work towards anything that could mend that, to finally realize that it is always more simple than we could ever think...and yet...there we are.

    Something I should have also pointed out is that every link is so very much connected to all others that in reality they are actually one whole thing, and that if one link goes, all the others go too, at once. Where does that all go? Nowheeeeeerreeee! Or also now-here...Never did that come, in the first place! Mind...mind....mind...

    In a sense, after all, as you beautifully always point out, we are already arrived, for there is nowhere to arrive too.
    Our practice itself is the goal-no-goal, without end.

    Gassho.
    Hokin.
    SAT&LAH.
    法 金
    (Dharma)(Metal)
    Wisdom Is Compassion & Compassion Is Wisdom.

  39. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    An interesting question. Long story short is that this is one of the widely and wildly interpreted teachings in old Buddhism, many versions, many interpretations, the strangest interpretation being that the first 4 apply to a past life, the middle 4 to the present life, and the last 4 to future lives. They make no sense. I happened to be looking at three scholars papers, last month, on the origins ... it is a mess.

    If you ask me, it is not such a mystery: The whole point is how one develops a sense of separate self, with all the suffering (attachments, view of personal life and death etc.) that results.

    So, I feel that it is very obviously similar to some modern models of infant development. Not exactly, but pretty darn close. What do you think of this?

    Buddha-Basics (Part XIV) – The Twelve-Fold Chain
    https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...lve-Fold-Chain

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Thanks for the link, Jundo. I remember watching this video years ago. I sat with you when the talk ended and heard the rainfall in the background. At that moment, there was no me and no you.
    So, Shikantaza is the gateway to the original mind even if it has always been here.

    Gassho,
    Sat today,
    Guish.

  40. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Hokin View Post
    Hello Guish!
    For whatever maymatter my opinion, 'dependent origination' is the Buddha’s way to analyze and explain how the ego-centered identification in the world comes about. It shows how cause and effect is at the root of everything especially in one’s mind. Every second we literally ‘make-up’ our sense of self, our sense of ‘I, me, mine’, and that is being brought to life and dying and been born again and dying the following instant once more, again and again, all the time...forever...until we can see through that whole process thoroughly and realize that it all is but, as I personally like to call it, a ‘convenient construct’. Here we can fathom how the continuous chain of birth and death (samsara) is perpetrated, and once we can really clarify the three seals of existence (dukkha-dissatisfatoriness, anatta-impersonality, anicca-impermanence) that are underlying the whole dependent origination process, we can be free of birth and death (nibbana) by seeing that nothing of that which we call ‘I’ is some real, consitently fundamental essence in any case, but a process, a construct that is born and dies all the time thousands of times per second, and also we can see that it is all marked by the three seals of existence.
    Anyways.
    The Buddha taught in the suttas that we can’t, as practitioners, work in any really easy, direct way with the first 7 links up to ‘feeling’, because we can’t help but ‘let it be’ for now, because they are factors already, pardon me the oxymoron, temporarily permanent and, psychologically speaking, they are subconscious. They are like the 'built-in apps' in the new cell-phone we just bought, take them away at once and it dies out! Hehehehe…Take the 6th, for instance: feeling. In traditional buddhism, and we see it in chain of dependent origination, feeling is caused by 'contact' which is of 6 kinds: eye-contact, ear-contact, nose-contact, tongue-contact, body-contact and mind-contact). So, all we see, hear, smell, taste, touch and think causes a feeling, which in turn is of 3 kinds: pleasant, unpleasant and neutral. 'Contact' we can't manage really, because most of the time we can't control what we see, hear, smell, etc...Maybe there is something we can do with feeling, and that is to take it all with equanimity, whether it be pleasant, unpleasant or neutral. But the eighth, ‘craving’ (in pali is ‘trishnaa’ which literally means ‘thirst’-for more!), well, with craving we really can work with!
    Vimalaramsi and Buddha, long before him in the suttas, teach that craving manifests as some sort of a tension in the practitioner’s body-mind (the two are really one!). So we recognize the tension and we let go that same tension and also we physically and mentally relax that tension so that there can be no attachment or grasping (upadana, literally: ‘fire’) which is the result, the effect of craving. Vimalaramsi teaches that craving is the ‘I-like-it, I-don’t-like-it’ mind we apply on 'feeling' and that attachment or grasping is all the thoughts and opinions that we 'attach' to that very same craving to justify why we like or not something...Thus perpetrating the whole'I'-dentification system.
    Then, after 'attachment', comes ‘becoming’ which in reality is simply the habitual reactions we apply at things, persons and situations.
    And finally 'becoming' causes 'birth' and this in turn causes aging, sickness, death and all suffering (dukkha).
    This whole process takes infinitesimally small fractions of a second and it is not to be simply viewed as, for example, the process of ‘birth and death’ of a whole ‘incarnated’ entity, but as the ‘birth and death’ of the 'sense of self' itself (the thought of identity, the ‘I, me, mine’ thing) which, as I said, happens numberless times in each second.
    Actually, I find, the only thing that in reality seems to ever come to birth and subsequently die, is only the thought of 'I, me, mine'.
    So...what really matters in this is the practice we can actively do on craving (in general the cause of dukkha) to calm down the whole process and see through these fabrications and attain liberation from that.
    I hope this reflection may help elucidate somewhat the whole matter.

    Gassho.
    Hokin.
    SAT&LAH.
    Thanks for this, brother. I have a similar view to yours. We observe a lot what we are not in our practice and the more we do that, the veils fall down. However, at the same time, we need this software as you pointed out, to live in this world. So, it's a bit like knowing that the matrix is not real but you still have a part to play in it.

    Gassho,
    Sat today,
    Guish.

  41. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Hokin View Post

    Something I should have also pointed out is that every link is so very much connected to all others that in reality they are actually one whole thing, and that if one link goes, all the others go too, at once. Where does that all go? Nowheeeeeerreeee! Or also now-here...Never did that come, in the first place! Mind...mind....mind...


    Gassho.
    Hokin.
    SAT&LAH.
    In the beginner's mind, Suzuki said something like " we are independent and dependent at the same time". The mind creates the separation but we can really never be disconnected, lonely or separate from anyone else. We are all jewels which connect through the Indra's net.

    Gassho,
    Sat today,
    Guish.

  42. #42
    Member Hokin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guish View Post
    In the beginner's mind, Suzuki said something like " we are independent and dependent at the same time". The mind creates the separation but we can really never be disconnected, lonely or separate from anyone else. We are all jewels which connect through the Indra's net.

    Gassho,
    Sat today,
    Guish.
    Beautifully said, Brother!
    Independent yet dependent.
    No dependence...no independence...
    Simply this.
    The Indra's Net.

    Have a nice day, precious jewel!

    Gassho.
    Hokin.
    SAT.
    法 金
    (Dharma)(Metal)
    Wisdom Is Compassion & Compassion Is Wisdom.

  43. #43
    Member Hokin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guish View Post
    In the beginner's mind, Suzuki said something like " we are independent and dependent at the same time". The mind creates the separation but we can really never be disconnected, lonely or separate from anyone else. We are all jewels which connect through the Indra's net.

    Gassho,
    Sat today,
    Guish.
    Beautifully said, Brother!
    Independent yet dependent.
    No dependence...no independence...
    Simply this.
    The Indra's Net.

    Have a nice day, precious jewel!

    Gassho.
    Hokin.
    SAT.
    法 金
    (Dharma)(Metal)
    Wisdom Is Compassion & Compassion Is Wisdom.

  44. #44
    Member Hokin's Avatar
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    Sorry for this that doesn't belong here but, may I ask two questions that, as I said, have nothing to do with what is being discussed here?
    The thing is that, in trying to reply, I would like to use the option that allows you to quote only certain sections of sombody else's posts and not the whole thing, as I see many are doing, but I simply don't know how to do that...Is there anyone that can explain me how to accomplish that?
    The other one question is kinda similar in that I simply don't know how to create a new post...I am not one that really very often think creating a new one either, but yes, sometimes happened that I wanted to but finally didn't just because I simply knew not how to. So...anyone there that can help me out with taht too?
    Maybe there is a part in the forum where things as these are expained, but I can't find that either!

    Gassho.
    Hokin.
    SAT.
    法 金
    (Dharma)(Metal)
    Wisdom Is Compassion & Compassion Is Wisdom.

  45. #45
    Member Hōkan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hokin View Post
    in trying to reply, I would like to use the option that allows you to quote only certain sections of sombody else's posts and not the whole thing

    When you click on "Reply With Quote", you can edit what's in the quote. Remove what you want to remove and you're good-to-go.

    Sat
    --
    Hōkan = 法閑 = Dharma Serenity
    To be entirely clear, I am not a hōkan = 幇間 = taikomochi = geisha, but I do wonder if my preceptor was having a bit of fun with me...

  46. #46
    Member Hokin's Avatar
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    Remove what you want to remove and you're good-to-go.

    Ooooooohhhhhh....then....It was this easy, wasn't it!

    Wonderful Hokan, Thank you veeeeery much!
    Now I got it! Hehehehe


    Gassho.
    Hokin.
    Sat Today.
    法 金
    (Dharma)(Metal)
    Wisdom Is Compassion & Compassion Is Wisdom.

  47. #47
    Member Hōkan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hōkan View Post
    When you click on "Reply With Quote", you can edit what's in the quote. Remove what you want to remove and you're good-to-go.

    Sat

    But make sure you keep the open bracket and "QUOTE=Hōkan;296435]" and "[/QUOTE]" around your quotes.
    Last edited by Hōkan; 12-30-2021 at 09:45 PM.
    --
    Hōkan = 法閑 = Dharma Serenity
    To be entirely clear, I am not a hōkan = 幇間 = taikomochi = geisha, but I do wonder if my preceptor was having a bit of fun with me...

  48. #48
    Member Hokin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hōkan View Post
    But make sure you keep the open bracket and "QUOTE=Hōkan;296435]" and "
    " around your quotes.[/QUOTE]

    Ok...let's if this works, in the end...Second try in 3...2....1....Bang!
    法 金
    (Dharma)(Metal)
    Wisdom Is Compassion & Compassion Is Wisdom.

  49. #49
    Member Hokin's Avatar
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    Yes...it worked...that was the problem!

    Thank you very much again Hokan, very lovely!

    Gassho.
    Hokin.
    SAT
    法 金
    (Dharma)(Metal)
    Wisdom Is Compassion & Compassion Is Wisdom.

  50. #50
    And to create a new post, go to the part of the Forum where you want to post, and hit the button near the top that says ... + Post New Thread ... like here ...

    https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/foru...t-Zen-Practice

    And a Koan ... Where in the "quote" box are the words, where is EMPTY!?!?

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

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