Zazen & Snyronicity with Yoga Practice

[Gregor]

This short clip by Nishijima Roshi is well worth watching. He discusses the Yogic background behind Zazen.



I feel this is a very important and accurate point. Zazen is just as much a physical practice as a mental one. Ultimately body and mind are one.

This reminds me of teachings made by Sahdguru who discusses that serious yogis practice one posture as their spiritual practice. The numerous asanas are just different paths and gateways.



Such synronicity!

I don't post this to be rigid about sitting lotus posture, I myself cannot achieve that yet (perhaps ever).

However, the blending of the physical and mental/spiritual in Zazen is the path.

I feel this points to how Zazen is indeed the way of the Buddha as it does stem from the yogic foundations from India as Roshi says above.

Sorry to run long, again.

Gassho,

Greg

STLAH


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[Jundo]

Yes, but Zazen, while a "yoga" practice, is very different in philosophy from both most Indian yogic practices and western, modern yoga.

The word "Yoga" is commonly said to derive from "attach, join, harness, yoke," which means to physically restrain and deny the body, all in an effort to attain extreme mind states, commonly in many Indian beliefs to get beyond the body and merge with the Godhead. In Soto Zen practice, we do not deny the body, although neither do we cling to the body, We do not emphasize extreme mind states, or the need to escape the body to merge with some spirit.

In the modern west, "Yoga" has taken on another, very different meaning: Often, a rather luke warm, vaguely spiritual practice to relax, maintain health, stretch the body. We are not that either.

Zazen is "yoga" in the sense that body and mind are one. It is a physical practice, as well as mental, and continues off the cushion even in the work we may do such as cleaning. However, Nishijima Roshi, like many Japanese Zen folks, had a belief in some physiological specialness to the Lotus Posture. I disagree, and so here, we emphasize finding any balanced, stable, comfortable way to sit which meets the needs of the sitter's particular body,

Now, that said, there is nothing to prevent someone from practicing Zazen then, afterwards, going to a yoga group. In fact, some of our long term members and priests are also yoga instructors, and they might comment more. We also have a "yoga" break during our annual Rohatsu retreat to give folks a chance to stretch, and there is nothing about western style Yoga and Zazen that is in conflict ... if they are each given their particular time. I believe it also possible to practice Yoga with an attitude of Shikantaza, just as we can do many sports, arts and activities with an attitude of Shikantaza.

Sorry to run long.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Onrin]

As a "nonpartisan" physical trainer who has helped a number of yoga teachers and others people who were too injured to perform even basic yoga sequences anymore I can say, with a body of physiological research behind me, that there are no magic postures or movements. The same position/movement may be beneficial to some and harmful to others, and others may be able to tolerate it, for a time.
I am not talking at all about the mental or spiritual side of practices here, to be clear.

This is one reason why I very much appreciate Jundo's philosophy of encouraging people to sit Burmese style, or other positions that work for them. I had a client some years ago who had a history of chronic back problems, hip replacement surgery etc...and who's goal was to be able to sit zazen. Unfortunately a new teacher he was studying with remotely was very strict and this person came back from a retreat in severe pain and had to stop everything and undergo some serious medical interventions. Understanding your body, it's flexibility or lack of, joint mobility restrictions and so on are pretty important in being able to sustainably carry on a physical practice, in my experience and that of many I've worked with over the past 20 years.
Sorry to run long.
chris

[Gregor]

I completely love and agree with what you both had said. Perhaps i chose my words poorly out of excitement for seeing this connection.


I do find great freedom in seeing ultimately no separation from body and mind or anything else in my Zazen practice.



Gassho,

Gregor

[Gregor]

Was reading a little RH Blyth today and came across this. ..

Seems like a good way to put it.




Gassho,
G
ST

[Jundo]

Was reading a little RH Blyth today and came across this. ..

Seems like a good way to put it.




Gassho,
G
ST

Small historical note ...

Several scholars of Indian religions would disagree with the statement that "Zen and Jainism [were] heretical sects of Hinduism," although not a surprising misunderstanding by Mr. Blythe as "Zen and Zen Classics" was first published 60 years ago. To make a long story short, Hinduism did not even begin to exist until many centuries after the ages of Buddhism and Jainism, and he seems to be confusing Hinduism with Brahmanism. Further, Buddhism and Jainism developed in Magadha in eastern India, which had its own traditions very unique and unrelated to Brahmanistic culture which was dominant in western parts of India. If anything, Buddhism and Jainism came to later change Brahmanism when Brahmanism came to Eastern India and then evolved into Hinduism as it spread to the rest of South Asia. (Jainism and Buddhism, and a now vanished sect called Ajivikism, are quite close to each other, by the way, like cousins.)

One of the most distinctive features of the culture of Greater Magadha was the belief in rebirth
and karmic retribution. This explains why the religious movements that were based on this belief
originated here. The most well-known of these religious movements are Jainism, Buddhism and
Ajivikism. The way in which this belief came to be adopted in Brahmanism, in spite of resistance that
took many centuries to dissipate, will be explained in a later chapter. Note here that this belief came to
be thought of in the Brahmanical tradition (and in modern scholarship until recently) as an inherent
and inseparable part of it.

...

During the period in which Jainism, Buddhism and Ajivikism arose, Brahmanism belonged primarily
to a geographically limited area, with its heartland in the middle and western parts of the Gangetic
plain. ... This situation changed with the political unification of northern India, begun by the Nandas
and continued by the Mauryas (fourth to second centuries B.C.E.). ... Brahmanism underwent a
transformation which enabled it to survive and ultimately flourish in changed circumstances ... Brahmanism had been a priestly religion with heavy emphasis on elaborate sacrifices. The
transformed Brahmanism that in due time succeeded in spreading all over the Indian subcontinent and
into Southeast Asia was primarily (though not exclusively) a socio-political ideology. ... Subsequent centuries saw the rise to prominence within the Brahmanical tradition of two gods in particular, Shiva and Vishnu. Worshipers tended to look upon one or the other as the supreme God
(the use of a capital G now seems appropriate), so much so that most Hindus would look upon
themselves as followers of one or the other

https://www.academia.edu/3288027/Karma

Gassho, J

STLah

[Gregor]

Jundo, Good background thank you. Especially appreciate the clarification about Jainism and the geography.

I am looking forward to reading the article you cite does seem to be most interesting.

I believe Blyth is discussing the six schools of Indian philosophy that existed in Vedic times.
That Hinduism came from.

Of course it is hard to tell from the context I posted as I did not share the previous page.

I recall Blyth mentioning (somewhere) in this chapter that Hinduism did come after Buddhism.

I should have redacted down to the difference between yoga and Zazen and his reference to Dogen as that was the portion I wanted to refer to.

Do you think he got the part about Zen vs Yoga on the nose?

Sorry to run long.


Gassho,

Greg
ST

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[Jundo]

Do you think he got the part about Zen vs Yoga on the nose?

I like that, "zazen is the result, not the cause of enlightenment." Yes. Or, perhaps even better, zazen is the expression and embodiment of enlightenment, enlightenment is zazen. Yes.

If there is nothing lacking, nothing more to attain in the pristine and perfect instant of action, no result to follow cause, no cause to precede result, how could zazen be anything else??

Gassho, J

STLah

[Gregor]

I like that, "zazen is the result, not the cause of enlightenment." Yes. Or, perhaps even better, zazen is the expression and embodiment of enlightenment, enlightenment is zazen. Yes.

If there is nothing lacking, nothing more to attain in the pristine and perfect instant of action, no result to follow cause, no cause to precede result, how could zazen be anything else??

Gassho, J

STLah

Nice. Pithy as I think we can get in describing something ineffable.

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