Zen Sports: Tai chi

[Ryumon]

I need to get into some physical activity. I've done tai chi a few times, a couple of years each time, over the years, and I think that would be something that I can do easily, especially now that winter is here, and being outdoors isn't ideal. When I first did tai chi, back in the 80s, it was the Cheng Man-Ching 37 form, which is a lot easier to grasp than longer forms. I just bought one of his books, detailing the form, and there are some videos online, so I should be able to figure out much of it. I also like his approach to tai chi as an activity that is more than martial or just exercise.

Does anyone in the group do tai chi (my guess is that there are several)? In particular, does anyone do the Cheng Man-Ching form? It could be useful to get some feedback. While I find lots of teachers doing online lessons, the Cheng Man-Ching form doesn't seem to be as common here in the UK as Yang or Chen schools.

Gassho,

Ryūmon

sat

[Tomás ESP]

Hi Ryumon, I have been practising Taiji for a bit, following the online courses through the Wudang Taoist Wellness Academy. It's a bit expensive, but it includes clear instruction both of Taiji, Qigong and a bit of Daoist philosophy.

https://www.taoistwellness.com/

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

[Ryumon]

Hi Ryumon, I have been practising Taiji for a bit, following the online courses through the Wudang Taoist Wellness Academy. It's a bit expensive, but it includes clear instruction both of Taiji, Qigong and a bit of Daoist philosophy.

https://www.taoistwellness.com/

Given that I've paid, in the past, for one-on-one lessons, that's not that expensive. Interesting idea, and I may come back to it, but, for now, I'd like to find someone who teaches Cheng Man-Ching's form.

I've never heard of the Wudang 8 form, but that's an interesting idea, starting with something simple. Which school do they teach for a longer form?

It definitely looks very professional, which is not the case for many of the tai chi videos I've seen.

Thanks,

Gassho,

Ryūmon

sat

[Tomás ESP]

From what I can gather:

Gu Shining's Chinese name is Gu Shiyi. Shining is his Taoist name, as he belongs to the 15th generation of Wudang Sanfeng Pai or sect, His shīfu (fatherly feacher) is Grandmaster Zhong Qingwei (Taoist name) or Zhong Yunlong.

I know they practice an 8, 33, 28, 13 routine form, though I am not sure about their sources (I've only gotten to the 8 form so far, since I have focused more on the Qigong aspects). I found out about the academy through the youtuber George Thompson, he has great videos about his process finding Taiji and Daoism:



Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

[Washin]

Hi all,

I've been practicing Wudang Sanfeng Taichi for about 7 years now in the school of Master Chen Shiyu.
So far I am familiar with only 13,28 and 108 forms known as basic.

Tomas, I just skimmed through the videos of Master Gu and it seems to me that the other forms are just variations, abbreviations and mixtures of the routine ones. Anyhow, the performance is very nice indeed.

Sorry Ryumon, I can't help with the answer as I know nothing about Cheng Man-Ching.

Just added my 2 cents here

Gassho,
Washin
stlah

[Naiko]

Ryūmon, I hope you find what you’re looking for. I am unfamiliar with that style. I also hope you and others will share here the resources you find. I practiced Yang style long and sword forms years ago (until shiny Muay Thai lure me away) and would like to come back to a practice.
Gassho,
Naiko
st

[Shinshi]

Hi all,

I've been practicing Wudang Sanfeng Taichi for about 7 years now in the school of Master Chen Shiyu.
So far I am familiar with only 13,28 and 108 forms known as basic.

Tomas, I just skimmed through the videos of Master Gu and it seems to me that the other forms are just variations, abbreviations and mixtures of the routine ones. Anyhow, the performance is very nice indeed.

Sorry Ryumon, I can't help with the answer as I know nothing about Cheng Man-Ching.

Just added my 2 cents here

Gassho,
Washin
stlah

If you do Tai Chi you might find his life interesting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheng_Man-ch%27ing

http://www.tai-chifilm.com/cheng-man-ching

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Washin]

If you do Tai Chi you might find his life interesting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheng_Man-ch%27ing

http://www.tai-chifilm.com/cheng-man-ching

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

Thank you, Shinshi

[Ryumon]

I know they practice an 8, 33, 28, 13 routine form, though I am not sure about their sources (I've only gotten to the 8 form so far, since I have focused more on the Qigong aspects).

Is qigong similar moves to tai chi, just not in long choreographed forms? If so, that might be a better way for me to start, though the idea of working toward a longer form is interesting.

Gassho,

Ryūmon

sat

[Ryumon]

If you do Tai Chi you might find his life interesting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheng_Man-ch%27ing

http://www.tai-chifilm.com/cheng-man-ching

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

I watched that documentary over the weekend. It's really interesting, showing a number of photos and films of Cheng in New York in the 70s. He was the first Chinese to teach tai chi in the west, as far as I know, and is as important as D T Suzuki was for zen.

Gassho,

Ryūmon

sat

[Tomás ESP]

Is qigong similar moves to tai chi, just not in long choreographed forms? If so, that might be a better way for me to start, though the idea of working toward a longer form is interesting.

Gassho,

Ryūmon

sat

The 2 series that I have learned from Qigong involved short forms that can be practiced in 5 minutes. For example, the first series I learned was the 5 animal Qigong. For each animal there were 2 different movements, so 10 movements total. Much easier to learn, though less intense in terms of exercise. The thing I do enjoy most of the academy is that before starting with Taiji or Qigong you start with a 15-20 minute routine of different stretching exercises that actually feel quite nice. I'm happy to answer any other questions you have about the academy through a private message .

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

[Seikan]

Apologies in advance for the lengthy response (I could chat for hours on this subject... )

I've been a student of Taijiquan (Tai Chi Chuan) for the better part of 25+ years. I started with the Cheng Man-Ching version in College (a great style for small spaces, by the way), but for the most part, I have primarily studied the Yang style through a variety of teachers, but all of them students of Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming of YMAA (https://ymaa.com/articles/ymaa-taijiquan-lineage).

FWIW, Cheng Man-Ching actually studied the Yang form himself before creating his own version through decades of practice and application. If you study both, you can easily see the similarities (and differences). Most of the posture names are virtually identical, although Cheng Man-Ching shortened the form, re-ordered some of the remaining postures, and adjusted most of them for a shorter frame/stance approach.

My current daily practice consists of 10 minutes of stretching, followed by one of the Tai Chi qigong sets to help warm up and get the energy (qi) flowing. I then work through the 108 move long form as well as the Tai Chi sword form.

Qigong (also "chi kung") translates roughly to "energy work" and there are almost countless forms of qigong that one can practice (5 animal frolics, 8 brocades, etc.). Tai Chi itself, when practiced as a solo form (slowly with proper posture and breathing) is also considered a form of Tai Chi. Beyond that, there is the martial side of Tai Chi as well as it can be a very formidable martial art when practiced correctly.

Even if you are not at all interested in the martial side of Tai Chi, I strongly suggest learning both sides (qigong and martial) as having at least a basic understanding of the martial applications of each move makes a huge difference in understanding the body mechanics, etc. of each movement. Practicing the form with a sense of "opponent" helps one better understand how to flow properly from one posture into the next.

To be honest, you can't go wrong with any of the core styles of Tai Chi (Chen, Yang [including Chen Man-Ching's version], Wu [two versions], Sun, and Wudang). You can definitely begin learning the basic "choreography" on your own using books and videos, but ultimately there is no substitute for a qualified teacher to help you understand all of the nuances (and those nuances are virtually endless! ). The good news is that, thanks to the pandemic, many teachers are now offering virtual classes for beginners, which is still not the same as receiving hands on corrections to one's form/posture, but it is the next best thing.

Best of luck in your pursuit of Tai Chi! What I love most about it are the endless layers of depth to explore. Just when you think you've figured out and mastered something, you quickly see how you're only just beginning to "get it".

Please keep us posted and let me know if I can be of any assistance whatsoever.

Gassho,
Seikan

-stlah-

[Jundo]

Hi all,

I've been practicing Wudang Sanfeng Taichi for about 7 years now in the school of Master Chen Shiyu.
So far I am familiar with only 13,28 and 108 forms known as basic.

Tomas, I just skimmed through the videos of Master Gu and it seems to me that the other forms are just variations, abbreviations and mixtures of the routine ones. Anyhow, the performance is very nice indeed.

Sorry Ryumon, I can't help with the answer as I know nothing about Cheng Man-Ching.

Just added my 2 cents here

Gassho,
Washin
stlah

Washin, with the moves ... and with hair ...



By the way, I am going to move this thread to our "Zen Sports" section so that we can keep it. Yes, I know, it is more "art" than "sport."

(By the way, I tried for awhile when I lived in China, but must confess that I found the 6am start times difficult. I have been meaning to take it up again.)

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Washin]

One of the latest..Standing still and hair no longer

In our circle we run Taichi class in the evening for people who work, but they also exercise some Qigong basics early in the morning on their own.

Gassho
Washin
StLah

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[Ryumon]

To be honest, you can't go wrong with any of the core styles of Tai Chi (Chen, Yang [including Chen Man-Ching's version], Wu [two versions], Sun, and Wudang). You can definitely begin learning the basic "choreography" on your own using books and videos, but ultimately there is no substitute for a qualified teacher to help you understand all of the nuances (and those nuances are virtually endless! ). The good news is that, thanks to the pandemic, many teachers are now offering virtual classes for beginners, which is still not the same as receiving hands on corrections to one's form/posture, but it is the next best thing.

Thank you for the long explanation. I do understand that in-person lessons are essential; the last time I studied tai chi, about 4-5 years ago, I had one-on-one lessons. That would be possible in better weather, but it certainly is not the right time of year. :-) In any case, there's nothing local, so, for now, if I do want to learn something, I'm pretty much on my own. So anything like push hands or sword is out of the question.

Is the wudang a style on its own, or a derivative of another style? I do think that that website has the most comprehensive and well produced videos that I've seen, and that makes a big difference.

I may come back to you if I make any progress and ask for some feedback now and then, if you would be so kind as to do the occasional zoom call to talk about it.

Gassho,

Ryūmon

sat

[Seikan]

Thank you for the long explanation. I do understand that in-person lessons are essential; the last time I studied tai chi, about 4-5 years ago, I had one-on-one lessons. That would be possible in better weather, but it certainly is not the right time of year. :-) In any case, there's nothing local, so, for now, if I do want to learn something, I'm pretty much on my own. So anything like push hands or sword is out of the question.

Is the wudang a style on its own, or a derivative of another style? I do think that that website has the most comprehensive and well produced videos that I've seen, and that makes a big difference.

I may come back to you if I make any progress and ask for some feedback now and then, if you would be so kind as to do the occasional zoom call to talk about it.

Gassho,

Ryūmon

sat

I'd be happy to help in any way that I can. Just let me know...

Regarding Wudang style, I have to admit that I know little about it as it is not typically generally included in the lineage of classic styles that all derive from the Chen style. The following site has a good summary of those styles (https://www.realtaichiuk.com/tai-chi-lineage.html). I suspect that all of the schools that teach some form of "Wudang" style are simply based on a different historical lineage overall. From what I have seen, many of them seem to share similarities in terms of low, deep stances; expansive, flowing movements, etc. Perhaps others here that practice a form of Wudang style can elaborate. I would be very interested to learn more as well.

The difficulty is that, like so many martial arts styles, everyone likes to claim that their style is the most authentic, etc. That said, even within one particular style you can find so many variations on the standard forms. As there are many martial applications for each posture and so many different body types to account for, this makes perfect sense. I've always found that the best teachers take an open-minded approach to practice and not a "my way or the highway" approach. In any given lineage, the form will evolve over time as each teacher/student makes their own subtle, yet practical adjustments to the form. If they make significant changes, that is when it may be said that a new form/variation has been created (e.g., when Cheng Man-Ching created his own shortened version of the Yang style).

I'll end my ramble here...

Gassho,
Seikan

-stlah-

(apologies for running long)

[Heiso]

I'm really pleased this thread has started as I've been trying to get into some form of regular Tai Chi practice over the pandemic via youtube but the amount of styles etc is a bit overwhelming so haven't got much further than the 8 Brocades.

I've been a student of Taijiquan (Tai Chi Chuan) for the better part of 25+ years. I started with the Cheng Man-Ching version in College (a great style for small spaces, by the way),

Seikan - is it the 37 postures form that is good for small spaces?

Gassho,

Heiso

StLah

[Kyōsen]

I've always wanted to learn but I really struggle learning from books/videos. There are two local groups that "teach" tai chi: The first one charges $600 for 6 months of lessons. The second one doesn't actually teach, you just show up, they put you in the back with all the other beginners and you just have to try to mimic the people around you (who don't know what they're doing).

Gassho
Kyōsen
Sat|LAH

[Seikan]

Seikan - is it the 37 postures form that is good for small spaces?

Heiso,

The Cheng Man-Ching style is generally good for smaller spaces due to the shorter stances and less lateral/back-and-forth movement compared to other styles. In the Yang long form (108 postures), we cover a fair amount of ground laterally (about 15-20 feet total) in either direction at different times. That can make practicing indoors (at home) a bit of a challenge with furniture and walls, etc. However, it's easy enough to adjust and adapt depending on your situation. On that note, I have a new (temporary) challenge to practicing at home now that our Xmas tree is set up right in the middle of my home practice space (aka my "living room").

Any form can be adjusted to suit one's environment, but if you are looking for a more compact style to being with the Cheng Man-Ching as well as the Sun and certain Wu styles are rather compact.

Gassho,
Seikan

-stlah-

[Seikan]

I've always wanted to learn but I really struggle learning from books/videos. There are two local groups that "teach" tai chi: The first one charges $600 for 6 months of lessons. The second one doesn't actually teach, you just show up, they put you in the back with all the other beginners and you just have to try to mimic the people around you (who don't know what they're doing).

Gassho
Kyōsen
Sat|LAH

$600 for 6-months of lessons doesn't sound that bad assuming you get at least a couple lessons per week. If it is only once per week, that is quite steep! I pay around that myself, but at my school, that gives me unlimited classes. As I average 3 classes per week, I'm spending about $6 per class. Not a bad deal.

Regarding the other school, oddly enough, that is actually how many forms of Tai Chi have been taught over the years in China. You would just show up (often in a park or other public setting) and gradually learn your way through the set. There was no individual "beginner" instruction. That said, it's not a great way to make the art accessible to newcomers. Attending a class designed for beginners is far more effective as particular focus can be placed on proper stances, balance, how to shift your weight, etc. Trying to learn all of that just by mimicking others takes so much longer and may be nearly impossible for some folks depending on their learning style.

Gassho,
Seikan

-stlah-

(apologies for running long... going to shut my computer off for the rest of the day).

[Onrin]

Well you are in luck Jundo - there is quite aa good teacher here in Tsukuba. My in-laws have been learning from him for a number of years now. Gentlemen must be about 80 and they say he moves like water. He learned while living in China and has been teaching.
Some years ago I picked up some of Professor Cheng Man-Ching's books and really enjoyed them. Pretty user friendly for a newbie like me. A friend practiced at his school in NYC in the 70's with one of his pupils and had great things to say about it.

Washin, with the moves ... and with hair ...



By the way, I am going to move this thread to our "Zen Sports" section so that we can keep it. Yes, I know, it is more "art" than "sport."

(By the way, I tried for awhile when I lived in China, but must confess that I found the 6am start times difficult. I have been meaning to take it up again.)

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Heiso]

Heiso,

The Cheng Man-Ching style is generally good for smaller spaces due to the shorter stances and less lateral/back-and-forth movement compared to other styles. In the Yang long form (108 postures), we cover a fair amount of ground laterally (about 15-20 feet total) in either direction at different times. That can make practicing indoors (at home) a bit of a challenge with furniture and walls, etc. However, it's easy enough to adjust and adapt depending on your situation. On that note, I have a new (temporary) challenge to practicing at home now that our Xmas tree is set up right in the middle of my home practice space (aka my "living room").

Any form can be adjusted to suit one's environment, but if you are looking for a more compact style to being with the Cheng Man-Ching as well as the Sun and certain Wu styles are rather compact.

Gassho,
Seikan

-stlah-

Thanks for this, Seikan, I will check it out. I definitely need something on the compact side as my practice space (front room) is pretty small.

Gassho,

heiso

StLah

[Heisoku]

Dear Ryumon
If you are still following up on this then
https://www.zhong-ding.com/
has groups all over the U.K.
Gassho
Heisoku
SATLA

PS it’s Cheng Man Ching Style


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[Ryumon]

Dear Ryumon
If you are still following up on this then
https://www.zhong-ding.com/
has groups all over the U.K.
Gassho
Heisoku
SATLA

PS it’s Cheng Man Ching Style


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Except in the West Midlands, where I am. :-(

Gassho,
Ryūmon (Kirk)
Sat


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[Mrcpt11]

My psychiatrist today mentioned I should consider practicing Tai Chi; I told her I was practicing zazen and she thought it would be a good addition to my practice. I’m not really sure where to start; I’d like to try something at home, maybe books or videos. Can of you recommend some resources to the complete beginner? Thanks in advance,

Gassho,
William
Sattoday

[Heisoku]

Dear Ryumon
Try this

https://www.em.zhong-ding.com/

Should go to the East Midlands branch.
Gassho
Heisoku


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[Myojin]

Doing one of the long forms is good for present awareness. If you lose track you find yourself repeating parts of the form in a loop until you bring the mind back to focus sufficiently.

Sattday

Dan

[Chikyou]

I'm interested in trying Tai Chi, I am REALLY out of shape at this point in my life and desperately need to move my body but I'm really short on time to join an in person class. What are some good (preferably free while I decide if this is something I will stick with) resources for learning the basics? I earned a red stripe belt in taekwondo as a teen - it's been about 20 years so I'm definitely rusty, but the basics of martial arts aren't totally foreign to me.

Sorry for running long
Gassho,
SatLah
Kelly

[Myojin]

I'm interested in trying Tai Chi, I am REALLY out of shape at this point in my life and desperately need to move my body but I'm really short on time to join an in person class. What are some good (preferably free while I decide if this is something I will stick with) resources for learning the basics? I earned a red stripe belt in taekwondo as a teen - it's been about 20 years so I'm definitely rusty, but the basics of martial arts aren't totally foreign to me.

Sorry for running long
Gassho,
SatLah
Kelly

I can’t imagine learning Tai Chi other than face to face if I’m honest. It’s much more complex than many martial arts, and chi is something you really have to feel, you don’t get that from a screen.

I practice by myself, but the two or by three years of regular practice with a teacher was what made that possible.

Sorry I can’t offer something more positive.

Sattday
Gassho
Myojin

[Daiman]

I'm interested in trying Tai Chi, I am REALLY out of shape at this point in my life and desperately need to move my body but I'm really short on time to join an in person class. What are some good (preferably free while I decide if this is something I will stick with) resources for learning the basics? I earned a red stripe belt in taekwondo as a teen - it's been about 20 years so I'm definitely rusty, but the basics of martial arts aren't totally foreign to me.

Sorry for running long
Gassho,
SatLah
Kelly

Hi Chikyou,

I think Taiji is an excellent exercise. I have been doing it for 30 years. I also teach it at a local cancer support center. The thing with Taiji is that you have to practice everyday and have patience (just like our zazen practice). If you practiced Taekwondo in your life, then certain parts of your training will get activated again if you start practicing Taiji. It is a great exercise and can even go into cardio once you speed the form up and perhaps start doing weapons practice. I say go for it. As a priest in training at Treeleaf, I cannot say definitively how this might work for your overall practice in Zen, but for me anyway, I do not see a separation at all. Buddhism in China had physical exercise as part of its practice. Later on in some sects of Taoism, the blend of Taoism, Confucianism, and Buddhism became very popular in China and there was an emphasis on body practice as well as meditative practices. Jundo works out and has spoken on the importance of keeping physically active, but that is one part of an online sangha, that we can encourage, but has to be taken up on your own as your own personal, physical practice based on each person's abilities and limitations.

I wish you the absolute best on your Taiji journey.

Gassho,
Daiman
ST/LAH