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Thread: time and attainment do not matter

  1. #1

    time and attainment do not matter

    .
    The most important aspect of Shikantaza is to sit and attain the feeling, deep in the bones, that "time and attainment do not matter." All is attained in the moment of just allowing this moment of just allowing, free of attaining. It is not voiced, not a thought particularly, and is just a feeling of profound conviction coming from somewhere that "time and attainment do not matter."

    Now, Shikantaza is a strange animal:

    How much time is needed to attain the feeling that "time and attainment do not matter?"

    Some folks need 30 minutes to truly attain the feeling that "time and attainment do not matter." Some folks need 15 minutes of sitting. For other folks, even 3 days is not enough sometimes. Other days (each day is unique), it may take only a snap of the fingers to attain the feeling that "time and attainment do not matter." That's how much time it takes to attain "time and attainment do not matter."
    .

    Most important point: "time and attainment do not matter."


    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 12-01-2021 at 01:53 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  2. #2
    The first thing that comes to my mind after reading this is "Drop your body and mind". If something had to be attained, it would make our practice less sacred.

    Gassho,
    Sat today,
    Guish.

    Sent from my PAR-LX1M using Tapatalk
    Has been known as Guish since 2017 on the forum here.

  3. #3
    My best example of this was a time I was frustrated at work after a lengthy repair that I thought was finished became a second lengthy repair to re-repair what I had just re-repaired. I sat still for a moment, as close to our zazen posture as I could perform in our computer chairs, and in seconds I felt it all drop away. Time is seemingly so vast that we are ants in comparison, and yet it is also so infinitesimal as to fit perfectly into just this moment. Truly a humbling experience.

    Gassho,
    William
    Sat

  4. #4
    I spend most if my time sitting very wrapped up in body and posture as I am unconfortable. I hope it will get better as I limber up and keep sitting daily. Mind and body do drop away for brief instances.

    Regardless the struggle is likely good practice.

    Gassho,
    Gregor
    ST
    Sent from my SM-N981U using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Gregor; 12-01-2021 at 05:50 AM.
    Jukai '09 Dharma Name: Shinko 慎重(Prudent Calm)

  5. #5
    The centre is timeless - and can be entered from anywhere within the time-space continuum.


    Sorry for running a bit long.


    Gassho
    Last edited by Anchi; 12-01-2021 at 08:26 PM.
    安知

    STLah

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Gregor View Post
    I spend most if my time sitting very wrapped up in body and posture as I am unconfortable. I hope it will get better as I limber up and keep sitting daily. Mind and body do drop away for brief instances.

    Regardless the struggle is likely good practice.

    Gassho,
    Gregor
    ST
    Sent from my SM-N981U using Tapatalk
    Suzuki said that those who struggle with Zazen find the most benefits from the practice. Good luck with your practice, brother.

    Gassho,
    Guish.

    Sent from my PAR-LX1M using Tapatalk
    Has been known as Guish since 2017 on the forum here.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Guish View Post
    The first thing that comes to my mind after reading this is "Drop your body and mind".
    If one truly truly truly sat "time and attainment do not matter," there is realization of "dropping body and mind" (no need to say "your").

    Why?

    Because it is the bodymind that measures time and wants attainments that matter.

    Gassho, J

    ST
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  8. #8


    Gassho, Shinshi

    SaT-LaH
    空道 心志 Kudo Shinshi
    I am just a priest-in-training, any resemblance between what I post and actual teachings is purely coincidental.
    E84I

  9. #9
    Beautiful Thank you for that Jundo.

    Gassho, Tomás
    Sat&LaH

  10. #10


    I was listening to a talk on YouTube earlier during which the monk mentioned that the area he is from near Lhasa has many steep hills. Going up the hills is hard, and going down the hills is easy, but whether one is going up or down, one is still moving toward Lhasa.

    Kodo Tobiishi sat today
    You can't help but exist in the present moment, all the time. It's the only place you ever are. Once you realize this, it kinda takes the anxiety out of the whole thing.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by omom View Post
    The centre is timeless - and can be entered from anywhere within the time-space continuum.


    Sorry for running a bit long.

    Gassho
    I like that. It reminds me of a passage of the Tibetan Book of the Dead. I don't recall it exactly, but something like "the naked, spotless intellect is like a transparent vacuum, without circumference or center. "

    Thank you, Jundo. Sorry for going long.

    Gassho,
    Juki

    sat today and lah
    "First you have to give up." Tyler Durden

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobiishi View Post


    I was listening to a talk on YouTube earlier during which the monk mentioned that the area he is from near Lhasa has many steep hills. Going up the hills is hard, and going down the hills is easy, but whether one is going up or down, one is still moving toward Lhasa.

    Kodo Tobiishi sat today
    Do you happen to remember the talk? I think I have been trying to re-find this for some time.

    Gassho,
    William
    Sat

  13. #13
    Thank you Jundo


    Tairin
    Sat today and lah
    泰林 - Tai Rin - Peaceful Woods

  14. #14
    I have been at times torn asunder during Shikantaza as a result of thoughts arising. A thought begins to arise, do I allow it to fully form (in the sense that once a single phoneme arises do I allow it to conclude in a unit of meaning, a word and/or then a sentence) and then let it go, or do I cut it off as it arises. Either way it involves some 'effort'.

    Some of the thoughts are about this such topic, about seeing any thought including thoughts of attainment as empty.

    There are times I simply use that ethereal sense of movement, our focus of awareness so to speak, to guide intension. Intension to simply not judge and let the thoughts drift away at either level (don't allow words to form and allow a word or a sentence to form but not develop further) but even then that wordless motion of letting go is empty, as it involves judgement.

    A beast Shikantaza certainly is, simply sitting in peaceful abiding, a frustratingly difficult at times thing to do.

    It is what it is, whatever it is... and it will continue to be whatever.

    Gassho
    Mark
    ST
    Last edited by Rousei; 12-01-2021 at 11:57 PM.
    浪省 - RouSei - Wandering Introspection

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobiishi View Post


    I was listening to a talk on YouTube earlier during which the monk mentioned that the area he is from near Lhasa has many steep hills. Going up the hills is hard, and going down the hills is easy, but whether one is going up or down, one is still moving toward Lhasa.

    Kodo Tobiishi sat today
    Maybe the Zen perspective is a little different ...

    Going up the hill, going down the hill, the whole hill and all sides are all already Llasa. Keep walking.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by WanderingIntrospection View Post
    I have been at times torn asunder during Shikantaza as a result of thoughts arising. A thought begins to arise, do I allow it to fully form (in the sense that once a single phoneme arises do I allow it to conclude in a unit of meaning, a word and/or then a sentence) and then let it go, or do I cut it off as it arises. Either way it involves some 'effort'.

    Some of the thoughts are about this such topic, about seeing any thought including thoughts of attainment as empty.
    Wow, too complicated! I even had to look up the definition of "phoneme," thinking that you were telephoning someone during Zazen!

    [phoneme, in linguistics, smallest unit of speech distinguishing one word (or word element) from another]

    You are trying to stop thoughts. We don't try to stop thoughts. We simply don't latch on and get tangled in them.

    Is it an "effort" to not grab something, or does one simply not grab it (which seems like the very opposite of effort!)?

    If a butterfly, flutters into the room, and you just let it flutter, then flutter out again, it is no effort. You don't have to worry, "Do I not think about it at 1 flutter, at 2 wings and a flutter?" You don't have to make an "effort" not to reach out and grab it as it flutters by your hand. Just let it flutter in and out. The butterfly does all the work, not you.

    There are times I simply use that ethereal sense of movement, our focus of awareness so to speak, to guide intension. Intension to simply not judge and let the thoughts drift away at either level (don't allow words to form and allow a word or a sentence to form but not develop further) but even then that wordless motion of letting go is empty, as it involves judgement.
    I actually have no idea what the above sentences mean, but I can say that this is NOT Shikantaza.

    Gassho, J

    STLah

    Sorry to run long
    Last edited by Jundo; 12-02-2021 at 12:18 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  17. #17

    time and attainment do not matter

    Quote Originally Posted by WanderingIntrospection View Post
    I have been at times torn asunder during Shikantaza as a result of thoughts arising. A thought begins to arise, do I allow it to fully form (in the sense that once a single phoneme arises do I allow it to conclude in a unit of meaning, a word and/or then a sentence) and then let it go, or do I cut it off as it arises. Either way it involves some 'effort'.

    Some of the thoughts are about this such topic, about seeing any thought including thoughts of attainment as empty.

    There are times I simply use that ethereal sense of movement, our focus of awareness so to speak, to guide intension. Intension to simply not judge and let the thoughts drift away at either level (don't allow words to form and allow a word or a sentence to form but not develop further) but even then that wordless motion of letting go is empty, as it involves judgement.

    A beast Shikantaza certainly is, simply sitting in peaceful abiding, a frustratingly difficult at times thing to do.

    It is what it is, whatever it is... and it will continue to be whatever.

    Gassho
    Mark
    ST
    That seems like a lot of work to just sit For me, as soon as I bow before putting my hands in the zazen mudra, I let go of all that “trying” and “intention” and “expectation” of what I should do in case this or that arises or what zazen should be like. I just sit upright, back straight, breathe deeply and naturally, keep eyes open, stay awake and let go of thinking…

    SatToday
    Bion
    美音

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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    If a butterfly, flutters into the room, and you just let it flutter, then flutter out again, it is no effort. You don't have to worry, "Do I not think about it at 1 flutter, at 2 wings and a flutter?" You don't have to make an "effort" not to reach out and grab it as it flutters by your hand. Just let it flutter in and out. The butterfly does all the work, not you.
    I will try my best to do just this, to think of my own thoughts as no different to a butterfly.

    Gassho
    Mark
    ST
    浪省 - RouSei - Wandering Introspection

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by WanderingIntrospection View Post
    I will try my best to do just this, to think of my own thoughts as no different to a butterfly.

    Gassho
    Mark
    ST
    Don't "try," just let the butterfly fly.

    (Hey, that rhymes!)

    Gassho, JSTLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Don't "try," just let the butterfly fly.

    (Hey, that rhymes!)

    Gassho, JSTLah
    Next book: “Jundo’s zen rhymes” … *just saying*


    Sat Today
    Bion
    美音

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  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Bion View Post
    Next book: “Jundo’s zen rhymes” … *just saying*


    Sat Today
    There was a Roshi from Nantucket ...



    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    There was a Roshi from Nantucket ...



    Gassho, J

    STLah
    sold!

    Sat today
    Bion
    美音

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  23. #23
    How do you drop body mind without the thought of dropping them? Isn't that thought then just a distraction?

    Gassho

    John

    SATToday
    Gassho

    John

    SATToday

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by johnsoriano View Post
    How do you drop body mind without the thought of dropping them? Isn't that thought then just a distraction?
    How do we breathe, sometimes with and sometimes without thought of breathing?

    Sit and find out.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by johnsoriano View Post
    How do you drop body mind without the thought of dropping them? Isn't that thought then just a distraction?

    Gassho

    John

    SATToday
    Just sit. No need to do anything else during Shikantaza (other than adopting a stable and balanced posture). We can create whole scenes in our heads of what this means, or how we should do it. Am I doing it right? Should I focus on my breathing? But we forget the simple yet complete instruction: Just sit. I really recommend reading Jundo's book to understand what this "Just sitting" entails, it is really helping me

    Gassho, Tomás
    Sat&LaH

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinshin View Post
    Do you happen to remember the talk? I think I have been trying to re-find this for some time.

    Gassho,
    William
    Sat
    "Keep calm when your mind is wild" Mingyur Rinpoche
    You can't help but exist in the present moment, all the time. It's the only place you ever are. Once you realize this, it kinda takes the anxiety out of the whole thing.

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobiishi View Post
    "Keep calm when your mind is wild" Mingyur Rinpoche
    Thank you for this.

    Gassho2, meian stlh

    Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
    迷安 Mei An (Wandering At Rest) | 優婆塞 Ubasoku
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    Living and practicing at the pace of chronic illness.

  28. #28
    Lead chants. Onkai gone, rakusu. gift, 30 min. Robe Verse, zazen, chimed. Which first chant. Buddha. Dharma. Sangha. chime, zazen, sometimes shikantaza, clock, I chime, bell, Thank you for sitting with me, he says, "You do a very good job." I am grateful it's over, happy and smiling. Thank you Onkai.
    Gassho
    sat/ lah
    Last edited by Tai Shi; 12-17-2021 at 03:27 PM. Reason: concision
    As lay member of Treeleaf Zendo, each year I try to understand our Buddhist traditions Dogen and the Buddha. If can help I will.

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