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Thread: The Zen Master's Dance - 6 - Fukan Zazengi (p. 29 to middle of p. 32)

  1. #1

    The Zen Master's Dance - 6 - Fukan Zazengi (p. 29 to middle of p. 32)

    Calling All Buddhas,

    We will read from the middle of page 29 (the section, "And So, 'The Way of Zazen Recommended for Everyone'") until the middle of page 32, stopping right BEFORE "We can still see the traces of the Buddha Sakyamuni")

    Please summarize briefly, based on today's reading and your own understanding, why in heck, if we are "already Buddha" and "the Buddha's truth is already all around, complete, and all-pervading" we still need to practice?

    Try to respond before reading what other folks have written in response.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  2. #2
    Gassho.

    Removing all divisiveness and concepts about the world and coming to the wholeness? That is a task for a lifetime.

    Firstly, I guess "knowing" we are buddha is different from "being" that buddha or even coming close to it. The bridge between is practice.
    Even a rough stone needs work before it can be called a diamond.

    Secondly, practice helps in channeling our energies towards the right direction. And that helps us to make the practice meaningful to move towards the "being".

    Gassho.
    Prashanth

    sat today.

    Sent from my GS190 using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Prashanth; 11-11-2021 at 02:17 PM.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Prashanth View Post
    Gassho.

    Removing all divisiveness and concepts about the world and coming to the wholeness? That is a task for a lifetime.

    Firstly, I guess "knowing" we are buddha is different from "being" that buddha or even coming close to it. The bridge between is practice.
    Even a rough diamond needs work before it can be called a diamond.

    Secondly, practice helps in channeling our energies towards the right direction. And that helps us to make the practice meaningful to move towards the "being".

    Gassho.
    Prashanth

    sat today.
    Perhaps Dogen would be a bit otherwise, for we are already the wholeness and merely need to act like it. Of course, we fail and fail again.

    We are already a Buddha, already a diamond, even when in the rough or covered with mud. The rough and mud is the diamond, the act of polishing is the diamond ... everything is the diamond ... thus we polish, polish, polish.

    There is no being or non-being to move toward or away from ... thus we do our best to move with grace.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Perhaps Dogen would be a bit otherwise, for we are already the wholeness and merely need to act like it. Of course, we fail and fail again.

    We are already a Buddha, already a diamond, even when in the rough or covered with mud. The rough and mud is the diamond, the act of polishing is the diamond ... everything is the diamond ... thus we polish, polish, polish.

    There is no being or non-being to move toward or away from ... thus we do our best to move with grace.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Gassho.
    Thank you, Jundo Sensei.
    I will study this angle further.

    Prashanth

    Sent from my GS190 using Tapatalk

  5. #5
    The mirror does not need to be polished, it is already a mirror through and through, but it will not polish itself.

    Gassho
    Sat, lah
    求道芸化 Kyūdō Geika
    I am just a priest-in-training, please do not take anything I say as a teaching.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Geika View Post
    The mirror does not need to be polished, it is already a mirror through and through, but it will not polish itself.

    Gassho
    Sat, lah
    And also, polishing does not make the mirror a mirror, it just helps it fulfill its purpose.

    SatToday
    Bion
    -------------------------
    When you put Buddha’s activity into practice, only then are you a buddha. When you act like a fool, then you’re a fool. - Sawaki Roshi

  7. #7
    “Practice”, in this sense, is, I believe, actually equal to “execute” or fulfill. A lawyer is a lawyer whether in court or at home, the same as a surgeon is a surgeon whether holding a scalpel or a broom. In that sense, when we “practice” we don’t train for buddhahood, or some other future outcome, but we rather manifest, embody, use buddhahood - we keep the hand accustomed to the scalpel, keep the scalpel sharp, re-learn the law. As long as we function based on senses, we remain vulnerable to delusion, and thus we need to continuously polish the mirror of the mind, so that what it reflects is as true as can be, and we see clearly our true nature.

    SatToday
    Bion
    -------------------------
    When you put Buddha’s activity into practice, only then are you a buddha. When you act like a fool, then you’re a fool. - Sawaki Roshi

  8. #8
    We need to practice to remain sharp and focused on the reality of life and not distracted by life's delusions.

    Gassho

    Dick

    sat/lah

  9. #9
    I think that we can only act in the world as a Buddha if we were already fundamentally it. But just because we are already it, or it is us does not mean we will act that way; it is up to us. And just because we may act properly in one scenario doesn’t mean we have “it” figured out. Life is dynamic, and we have to actually live like a Buddha which may differ based on the situation.

    This I feel is true freedom; I think although we have “freedom”, I don’t think we are all free. What is controlling me? What assumptions do I make about myself and others that may not reflect reality? I think that is precisely what the precepts are about; living by the precepts takes discipline but that is true freedom, bringing the Buddha to life… dusting off ourselves to let our real selves shine through

    gassho

    Risho
    -stlah

  10. #10
    I think that metaphor of the wind does the best justice of this, on many levels. The old "If the wind is everywhere, why do you fan yourself?"

    The air around us is always moving, flowing, denser gases settling lower while lighter ones move to float above. But we do not always feel that change. A gentle breeze can be lost upon an unceasing observer.

    Buddha nature pervades everything around us, but too distracted by earthly happenings we may miss this. We might miss the slight reactions of another person that reveal their inner nature, or the chance encounters that reveal the lack of distinction between things.

    We sit, despite already being totally whole, so that we can still our own unceasing observers, in order the notice even the gentlest of breezes.

    Gassho,
    William
    Sat

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Please summarize briefly, based on today's reading and your own understanding, why in heck, if we are "already Buddha" and "the Buddha's truth is already all around, complete, and all-pervading" we still need to practice?
    I am a guitarist. I play guitar.
    I play guitar. I am a guitarist.




    Tairin
    Sat today and lah
    Last edited by Tairin; 11-13-2021 at 01:47 AM.
    泰林 - Tai Rin - Peaceful Woods

  12. #12
    The sutras and shastras report that Gotama the Buddha continued to practice every day after his complete, perfect enlightenment, so why wouldn't we?


    Sat today
    おつかれさまです

  13. #13
    as Dogens contemporary meister Eckhart would say: "ohne warum ". without why. I just sit.



    aprapti

    sat

    hobo kore dojo / 歩歩是道場 / step, step, there is my place of practice

    Aprāpti (अप्राप्ति) non-attainment

  14. #14
    Why do we practice if we are already Buddhas?

    My short answer is that the Buddha, Bodhidharma and the rest practiced throughout their lives and I’m no better than them so why shouldn’t I do the same?

    My more reflective answer is that enlightenment is a verb and so is practice, so they go together. Not practicing is trying to be a static noun, which is unnatural and delusional.

    Stewart
    Sat
    Last edited by Stewart; 11-15-2021 at 12:38 PM.

  15. #15
    The truth is all around us and within us, but we still need to practice in order to see it and experience it because without practice we see everything through the prisms of categories, distinctions, and our likes and dislikes. When we can drop the mental chatter and the dividing of things and our prejudices, we can experience wholeness and oneness, or so I'm told. I have found a certain peace and equanimity and the workings of my discursive mind (ego? Not a term used much here) It's a relief to drop it all and just be, adding nothing.

    Gassho,
    Onkai
    Sat/lah
    美道 Bidou Beautiful Way
    恩海 Onkai Merciful/Kind Ocean

    I have a lot to learn; take anything I say that sounds like teaching with a grain of salt.

  16. #16
    We're all stardust. I think this idea hit me much harder than "already Buddha", because in a very succinct and clear way it expresses that fundamentally we don't come out of thin air! We're born of the universe, as the universe, experiencing the universe and simply because we have a 'mind' and an 'awareness' doesn't negate that. Our nature is what we are, we are the universe. I like to talk about this idea, a lot!

    Gassho
    Mark
    ST
    浪省 - RouSei - Wandering Introspection

  17. #17
    Without practice, we may not learn to really see or recognize truth fully... even when it is all around us, hits us upside the head, or stares right at us... or at the other end of the spectrum, when it can be easily missed... the more we practice, the more we see.


    rj
    st

  18. #18
    Member Seishin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    La Croix-Avranchin, Basse Normandie, France
    To sit is to find the Buddha without searching. Nothing to be found.

    Because guaranteed at some point in the day, regardless of what comes off the zafu with me, someone will do something I'll react to.
    Then the inner Buddha, poof, will disappears as if never there.
    So I sit each morning to allow the searchless search to find what was never missing. Wash rinse repeat until, poof, the wave vanishes.

    Sat


    Seishin

    Sei - Meticulous
    Shin - Heart

  19. #19
    Buddha is all around. But living in this world of delusion and separation, this fact is hidden from us. We practice so that what is present will appear, even if not obvious to us. We practice in order to drop all thought of separation between us and Buddha.

    The key here is to understand that this realization is not like any other attaining of some ordinary fact. It's a dynamic understanding that you have to explain or remind yourself every moment. It's like waking up in the morning from the sound of your alarm clock, still confused from your dreams, not sure if you were actually talking to that old friend a moment ago, not sure if you can sleep some more, and having to realize that you should get ready for the rest of your day.

    We practice in the safety and wholeness of zazen so that we can bring whatever wisdom arises in the rest of our lives.

    Gassho, Nikolas
    Sat/Lah

  20. #20
    I just want to say, some very lovely responses from everyone this week!

    Gassho, J

    STlah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  21. #21
    After getting the book a few days ago, I've now caught up with your reading and I'm glad that I'm now able join into this reading practice. I will try this assignment as my first one, before I'll maybe try some of the older ones.

    My assignment answer is:
    Buddha is here, we are here, but even though we might intellectually accept that he cannot be separated from here and us, we still won't know, won't feel, won't experience him, us, if we don't practice like he did, like he does, with him here and now, today and tomorrow.

    Apart from the assignment, I would like add something and maybe somebody else has some thoughts on it.
    When reading Dogen in this more esoteric way like Jundo does in the Zen Master's Dance, but which I think I've read in relatively similar ways either by Uchiyama Roshi or Okumura Roshi or both of them, I feel quite reminded of similar concepts in Christianity. I'm thinking about the Holy Ghost but also about the concept of "Christ in you", which means that Christ or part of him are living in every human being. While there is of course the important difference between sentinent and human beings here, the idea of Christ in us and between us seems to me quite similar to the way Dogen is describing Buddha. I'm wondering how much of a common of human beings desire for the immanence of the transcendent of human beings becomes visible through this kind of similarities.

    Sorry for running long.

    Gassho,
    Stephan

    SatToday



    Sent from my Nokia 6.1 using Tapatalk

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Stephan View Post
    My assignment answer is:
    Buddha is here, we are here, but even though we might intellectually accept that he cannot be separated from here and us, we still won't know, won't feel, won't experience him, us, if we don't practice like he did, like he does, with him here and now, today and tomorrow.
    Hi Stephan,

    I would just note on this that perhaps one does not need a "he" (or any noun or pronoun) for this "Buddha." On the other hand, since this Buddha is everything and the kitchen sink and then some too, then "he" (and any noun or pronoun) can fit too.

    In keeping with your other comment, although I am not an expert in Christian theology at all, there may be some resonance of these different usages of "Buddha" (as man, as everything, as "and then some" too) with the "father son holy ghost" thingy.

    Just something to think (non-think) about.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 11-21-2021 at 02:15 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Calling All Buddhas,

    We will read from the middle of page 29 (the section, "And So, 'The Way of Zazen Recommended for Everyone'") until the middle of page 32, stopping right BEFORE "We can still see the traces of the Buddha Sakyamuni")

    Please summarize briefly, based on today's reading and your own understanding, why in heck, if we are "already Buddha" and "the Buddha's truth is already all around, complete, and all-pervading" we still need to practice?

    Try to respond before reading what other folks have written in response.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    We continue to practise because when we practise, we express our Buddha nature. When we sit Zazen, the Buddha is sitting. When we clean the house, the Buddha is cleaning. We decide whether we want to express our Buddha nature or let ourselves stray away from who we are.

    Gassho,
    Sat today,
    Guish.

    Sent from my PAR-LX1M using Tapatalk
    Has been known as Guish since 2017 on the forum here.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Hi Stephan,

    I would just note on this that perhaps one does not need a "he" (or any noun or pronoun) for this "Buddha." On the other hand, since this Buddha is everything and the kitchen sink and the some too, then "he" (and any noun or pronoun) can fit too.
    Yes, thanks for your important point regarding gendered pronouns for "Buddha". So easily I fall into the trap of using non-inclusive pronouns for Buddha, even though I normally try to be aware of the problem with them, especially when talking about the transcendent.

    Gassho,
    Stephan

    SatToday

    Sent from my Nokia 6.1 using Tapatalk

  25. #25
    So I reckon: Though we are already Buddha, we are like sleeping Buddha: we generally aren't awake to our Buddha-ness. We practice to wake up, to see, right here and now, that we are Buddha.

    Gassho,
    Eamonn

    Sat Today

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Eamonn View Post
    So I reckon: Though we are already Buddha, we are like sleeping Buddha: we generally aren't awake to our Buddha-ness. We practice to wake up, to see, right here and now, that we are Buddha.

    Gassho,
    Eamonn

    Sat Today
    I’d say, rather, we practice seeing, we execute “being it”. We don’t, for example, sit with the hope of at some point experiencing something, or realizing something. The sitting is the experience and the embodiment and the seeing.

    SatToday
    Bion
    -------------------------
    When you put Buddha’s activity into practice, only then are you a buddha. When you act like a fool, then you’re a fool. - Sawaki Roshi

  27. #27
    Yes, that's what I was trying for! Not practicing in order to wake up, but just practicing awake-ness.

    Thank you!

    Gassho,
    Eamonn

    Sat Today

  28. #28
    Please summarize briefly, based on today's reading and your own understanding, why in heck, if we are "already Buddha" and "the Buddha's truth is already all around, complete, and all-pervading" we still need to practice?
    Although we may believe that we have buddha nature, it is one thing to know that and believe it and another thing to realise it.

    Through daily sitting on the cushion we trust that each moment is full and complete in and of itself, until that trust fills our entire body, right down to the bones, and we realise that not only are we part of the dance, we were never separate from it.

    Although we can never be separate from the dance, it takes practice to see this, and express it in our life and actions, taking the deep trust we find in Zazen into the world.


    Gassho
    Kokuu
    -sattoday/lah-
    Last edited by Kokuu; 11-22-2021 at 01:32 AM.

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokuu View Post
    Although we may believe that we have buddha nature, it is one thing to know that and believe it and another thing to realise it.

    Through daily sitting on the cushion we trust that each moment is full and complete in and of itself, until that trust fills our entire body, right down to the bones, and we realise that not only are we part of the dance, we were never separate from it.

    Although we can never be separate from the dance, it takes practice to see this, and express it in our life and actions, taking the deep trust we find in Zazen into the world.


    Gassho
    Kokuu
    -sattoday/lah-
    It reminds me of the story of Buddha and the Tamarind tree. When asked by three different people about why they keep suffering and getting betrayed despite doing good deeds, Buddha replied that life is as it should be.
    We are always running from what life is giving us. Life is just as it should be. We should accept it as it is deeply and still do our best.

    Gassho,
    Sat today,
    Guish.

    Sent from my PAR-LX1M using Tapatalk
    Has been known as Guish since 2017 on the forum here.

  30. #30
    It reminds me of the story of Buddha and the Tamarind tree. When asked by three different people about why they keep suffering and getting betrayed despite doing good deeds, Buddha replied that life is as it should be.
    We are always running from what life is giving us. Life is just as it should be. We should accept it as it is deeply and still do our best.
    Yes. Shunryu Suzuki once said that we are all perfect as we are, yet could use a little improvement, and the same could be said for life and the world.

    Thanks, Guish.

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    -sattoday/lah-

  31. #31
    Some years ago I completely stopped playing guitar for a number of years. There was still a part of me that new how to play guitar, but I had completely lost sight of it. During the first Covid enforced lockdown I started playing again and i realised what I’d lost sight of. Without practice I wouldn’t have rediscovered that which was already there.

    Gassho,
    Dan
    ST/LAH

  32. #32
    Far behind and catching up... (Though nowhere to get to and no deadline to arrive)
    ----

    A jewel in a coat
    A fan in the air
    Setting aside metaphors
    I sit facing the wall
    Joining all beings,
    throughout space and time
    Embodying richness,
    And the cool breeze
    -----

    Just a clumsy verse that surfaced in my mind. Thought I'd share that instead of the kind of verbose blah blah explanation I'm prone to give

    -stlah

  33. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaishin View Post
    Far behind and catching up... (Though nowhere to get to and no deadline to arrive)
    ----

    A jewel in a coat
    A fan in the air
    Setting aside metaphors
    I sit facing the wall
    Joining all beings,
    throughout space and time
    Embodying richness,
    And the cool breeze
    -----

    Just a clumsy verse that surfaced in my mind. Thought I'd share that instead of the kind of verbose blah blah explanation I'm prone to give

    -stlah
    I dig it!

    gassho

    Risho
    -stlah

  34. #34
    A jewel in a coat
    A fan in the air
    Setting aside metaphors
    I sit facing the wall
    Joining all beings,
    throughout space and time
    Embodying richness,
    And the cool breeze

  35. #35
    Member Kaisui's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Australia (past username - coriander)
    Here is my post before reading other people's posts...

    ++++++++
    My understanding from the reading (and a recent Ango chat with Jundo) is that we should practice because, even though we are already Buddha,
    - we are not manifesting Buddha unless we practice
    - we do not see Buddha nature, beyond the delusion of separation, unless we practice

    It sounds simple, but I am still grappling with this because I do not yet 'know' it for myself. Or, perhaps I have moments where I know it, but I do not yet know it in an overall way where I have a strongly developed sense of trust in the necessity of practice. I trust that practice helps us see through delusion, but I don't yet fully grasp the point of seeing through delusion, if we are already Buddha whether we see it or not.

    At the same time, I do feel there is something in it, even if I don't get it yet, and I rely on this. Kind of like the fake it till you make it approach, only I'm not totally faking it.

    Something that has helped me build trust in practicing Zazen is remembering that I have drifted away from it in the past because I wasn't sure of its value, and then for "some reason," I have come back. Even if I don't fully understand it, having come back twice now helps my resolve to remain, because I more strongly feel there is something to it.
    ++++++++

    And now after reading the posts...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bion View Post
    “Practice”, in this sense, is, I believe, actually equal to “execute” or fulfill. A lawyer is a lawyer whether in court or at home, the same as a surgeon is a surgeon whether holding a scalpel or a broom.
    This was very helpful to me, thank you Bion. There is something in the difference between what we 'are' and what we are 'doing,' and our practice is a doing.

    This reminds me of something I had written down for myself when reading Okumura's book on Dogen's Gengokoan (see also: http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachin...an_Okumara.htm). About total dynamic function, I wrote for myself that "we are what we are doing in this moment." Maybe I should think less of being already Buddha no matter what I do, but about being already Buddha immediately when I act as Buddha, knowing I can do this in any moment, as there is nothing needed to be done beforehand to act as Buddha (and thus be Buddha) in any moment, right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tairin View Post
    I am a guitarist. I play guitar.
    I play guitar. I am a guitarist.
    Yes, something like that Wonderful.

    And I also dig the verse by Kaishin. Some nice posts in this thread; I have enjoyed this topic.

    Gassho,
    Charity
    sat&lah

  36. #36
    My understanding from the reading (and a recent Ango chat with Jundo) is that we should practice because, even though we are already Buddha,
    - we are not manifesting Buddha unless we practice
    - we do not see Buddha nature, beyond the delusion of separation, unless we practice
    Beautifully succinct and to the point!

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    -sattoday/lah-

  37. #37
    Life itself is the only teacher.
    一 Joko Beck


    STLah
    安知 Anchi

  38. #38
    Treeleaf Unsui Nengei's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Minnesota's Driftless Area
    Practice is the fulfillment of the buddha-function of the universe. Though I strive to practice without purpose or attainment, there ARE benefits to practice. I practice because I want to see the Buddha's truth in my life-practice. I practice because I have vowed to save all sentient beings.

    Gassho,
    Nengei
    Sat today. LAH.

  39. #39
    We're such an integral part of this dance, it's so "close" and pervasive, that we don't easily perceive it. We see everything deludedly (if that's a word) through the filters of our conditioning and preferences. And so we practice, dropping resistance, and sometimes the whole thing (including the non-separate separation) falls into place, for a time, and we gradually "improve" our perception and understanding. A minimalist way of looking at it, but just my thought at this moment.

    Gassho,
    Viveka
    st/lah
    Viveka (विवेक)

  40. #40
    We still "need" to practice despite possessing Buddha-nature because we are deluded and see things and others as seperate from ourselves. We seek and strive for things and wish things to be other than they are. A lot of this is purely evolutionary programing needed to make sure we survive in a harsh world.

    Practice helps us drop all that ( at least for the time being) and see the deeper/truer reality and accept life as it is and feel the interconnection between all things and all beings.

    Without the continous practice mentioned in the book those realizations can become fleeting and abandoned to more "pressing" matters.

    Frequent Zazen helps to bring that balance off the cushion and into life with us day to day.

    Gassho,
    Greg
    STLAH
    Jukai '09 Dharma Name: Shinko 慎重(Prudent Calm)

  41. #41
    There is a fundamental difference between being lost in a Dream and knowing that you are Dreaming. Even though in both cases you are still in the Dream, the first case generates much more suffering than the second one.

    Gassho, Tomás
    Sat

  42. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Calling All Buddhas,

    We will read from the middle of page 29 (the section, "And So, 'The Way of Zazen Recommended for Everyone'") until the middle of page 32, stopping right BEFORE "We can still see the traces of the Buddha Sakyamuni")

    Please summarize briefly, based on today's reading and your own understanding, why in heck, if we are "already Buddha" and "the Buddha's truth is already all around, complete, and all-pervading" we still need to practice?

    Try to respond before reading what other folks have written in response.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    We practice so that we may experience and grow in the understanding of the universal truth that everything is Buddha. It's one thing to "know" something intellectually, but to really live it we need to experience it.

    Gassho,
    SatLah
    -Kelly

  43. #43
    Practice is what transforms intellectual, abstract knowledge into the deeper understanding of lived experience. Abstract knowledge without experience is also very unlikely to translate into a kinder, calmer, more compassionate way of life.
    A quote from my favorite author, Ursula K. LeGuin, that I found relevant: "I made myself a vessel. I know its shape. But not the clay. Life danced me. I know the dances. But I don't know who the dancer is."

    Showan
    Lent a hand today (going to sit on my lunch break)
    おつかれさまです

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