2nd Precept and giving food to homeless people

[_Jd_]

.

[JacquesG]

Good morning

I think I am reading a "greater good" argument in what you write. I think what you are doing is right, but would be better if you made a "program of it" speaking to the restaurants, and letting them in on the idea of donating food that will definitely be thrown away, and extending it to all drivers who want to do that. That to me is a positive Karma action, feeds people, and stops waste and is contained in the here and now. I think some restaurants may have a possible fear of food safety liability but using independent drivers will distance that possible liability from them. A reason why restaurants throw that food away a lot of the times is that they do not want vagrant people hanging around their back door. This also solves that. I think it's a great idea all-round.

Gassho

Jacques - ST

[Jundo]

In no way have I ever felt that I was stealing, the restaurant has already been paid for the order and the customer received a refund because the food was never delivered and is now being thrown out.

I'm just curious what other Buddhist view on something like this was. I've appreciated reading others views on topics lately.

Gassho
Jd
s/l

Hi Jd,

It is a question about whether there is a "Robin Hood" exception to the Precepts. Master Dogen once told a "steal from the rich, give to the poor" story with some approval or, at least, no criticism ...

Zen Master Master Chih-chueh gave rise to the desire to seek the Way, becoming a monk. Formerly, he was a government official known for his abilities, honesty and wisdom. But when he was governor of a certain province, he appropriated public funds illegally and gave the money to the people. An official nearby reported this to the imperial court. When he heard the news, the emperor was astounded, and his minsters were also amazed.

In any event, because the offense was serious, the death penalty was imposed. The emperor declared, “This official, so talented and wise, nonetheless committed these criminal acts. There must have been some deep, inner motivation. Therefore, at the moment when his head is to be chopped off, chop it off quickly if you see an expression of regret and grief on his face. But, if he has no such look, he certainly had some other profound motivation. In such case, do not kill him.

When the emperor’s messenger led him out for his beheading, still, he showed no regret and grief. In fact, he looked happy, saying, “I give this life for the benefit of all sentient beings.” The messenger, in amazement, reported this fact to the emperor, who declared, “It is as I believed. There is some deeper motivation.” When asked, Chih-chueh explained, “It was my wish to retire from my official post, and to donate my life to all sentient beings in union with them. I hope to begin a new life as a Buddhist disciple, practicing the Buddha Way with all sincerity.” The emperor, touched by these words, allowed him to ordain as a monk. His new name was Enju, meaning “extended life,” for having been spared death.

Monks of the present day must give rise to such an attitude at least once, holding to such aspiration that they become willing to sacrifice the same in profound compassion for all sentient beings, entrusting their body to the way of the Buddha. Once having given rise to such aspirations, maintain them, and do not lose them even a bit. In the absence of having aroused aspirations like this, it is just not possible to awaken to the Buddha Dharma. (SZuimonki 1-12, my translation)

I also like Jacques suggestion very much.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Prashanth]

Good morning

I think I am reading a "greater good" argument in what you write. I think what you are doing is right, but would be better if you made a "program of it" speaking to the restaurants, and letting them in on the idea of donating food that will definitely be thrown away, and extending it to all drivers who want to do that. That to me is a positive Karma action, feeds people, and stops waste and is contained in the here and now. I think some restaurants may have a possible fear of food safety liability but using independent drivers will distance that possible liability from them. A reason why restaurants throw that food away a lot of the times is that they do not want vagrant people hanging around their back door. This also solves that. I think it's a great idea all-round.

Gassho

Jacques - ST

That's a noble suggestion, JacquesG. Gassho.

JD: you may find the several ideas being nurtured to manage food waste, mainly in the UK, in this page. Hopefully you will find some inspiration to "spin-off" your idea too:

https://www.positive.news/?s=food+waste

Gassho.
Prashanth.
Sat.

Sent from my Lenovo TB-7305F using Tapatalk

[Angel]

A beautiful suggestion Jacques.

Unfortunately in the USA (at least) it's almost universally impossible to receive food donations from restaurants or grocery stores as they are so paranoid of liabilities they will always refuse to donate healthy but otherwise unsaleable foods.

Just a note in support of this observation: I approached Amtrak (rail travel) at one point, offering something similar. Not only did they refuse (pleasantly), they explained to me that when they throw out any food - be it fruit, veggies or steaks, their policy is to douse it with bleach to ensure that the homeless won't eat it. It was explained to me that they do this to prevent unwanted litigation.

Angel-sat

[Jakuden]

I thought maybe it was here that I read about this lady:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...lks-anna-sacks

Anyway, thank you JD for your compassion. The U.S. doesn't make it easy for sure. I can't even collect and donate expired medications for pets anymore even though I know they are perfectly good and could save lives at shelters and rescues.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

[Jundo]

I thought maybe it was here that I read about this lady:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...lks-anna-sacks

Anyway, thank you JD for your compassion. The U.S. doesn't make it easy for sure. I can't even collect and donate expired medications for pets anymore even though I know they are perfectly good and could save lives at shelters and rescues.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

Let us offer Metta for lawyers, litigants and legislatures ... that they might find Wisdom and Compassion.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Onrin]

Let us offer Metta for lawyers, litigants and legislatures ... that they might find Wisdom and Compassion.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Kaishin]

JD, were it me, I would likely do the same thing you are doing. What is right is not always what is lawful.

Food waste is a huge issue. There is an excellent organization in my city that I have volunteered for. They make arrangements with large numbers of restaurants, grocery stores, etc to collect food waste (with documents to protect the donators from the type of liability discussed above). That food is brought to their central donation center and repurposed as meals for after-school programs, elder centers, homeless centers, and so forth. It is a wonderful program. They also have restaurant industry training for people trying to get a second lease on life after incarceration or other life struggles. I wish that every major city had something like this. In my time there, I was truly shocked at the amount of food they collect that would otherwise end up in dumpsters.

-stlah

[Seibu]

Let us offer Metta for lawyers, litigants and legislatures ... that they might find Wisdom and Compassion.

Gassho, J

STLah

Gassho
Seibu
Sattoday/lah

[bakera3312]

Hi Jd,

It is a question about whether there is a "Robin Hood" exception to the Precepts. Master Dogen once told a "steal from the rich, give to the poor" story with some approval or, at least, no criticism ...



I also like Jacques suggestion very much.

Gassho, J

STLah

Tony,

[Shoki]

When working, I would have regular paycheck deductions to two local charities that helped feed the homeless. Now that I'm retired, I will make occasional food donations in person. I always thought these were very direct approaches and did not have to worry about donation getting to the right place, waste, etc.

Gassho
STlah
Shoki

[Jundo]

Although I try to "lend a hand" every day in some form, I will no longer be signing my posts with that tagline for this exact reason.

It is appreciated if you sign LAH or "Lent a Hand" after a post, but not specify what was done. It encourages others, but takes no credit.

We will just assume that it is somewhere between having lent a spare Kleenex to someone about to sneeze or having lent a penny to someone at the grocery to having cured cancer or saved a baby from a fire that day ... maybe any or all of those.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Shokai]

When at first you don't suceed, try, try again.
Fall down seven, get up eight.
Never say never, and never giveup

Life is too short to take it seriously

gassho, Shokai
stlah

[Shonin]

As one who worked decades in food service I was always bothered by the idea of throwing food out if it's still good. I think what you are doing is stealing in a way because you don't have permission but at the same time I would probably do the same given the situations you describe though. but at the same time as a former cook I also know that sometimes food gets tossed because it's the law according to the health department. Outside of a certain temperature range for more than 40 min can allow food bourn illnesses to set in. So that's something to consider too as doing that runs the risk of making someone ill while trying to help them ( i'd have to look up the current safety zone by state for what is acceptable or not). I know I'm kind of a butthole for bringing that part up and I sincerely don't mean to rain on your parade but it is something to think about.

Dave
SAT/LAH

[Shonin]

Well you seem educated enough that you would know when not to give it to someone. And yeah, it's pretty much just " this COULD happen". I still think it's stealing but in the victimless department. But I've always been uptight about that to the point that i'd always ask my managers for permission even if I knew they would give it to me. I do think it should end up in a belly not the trash. While I know the technical reasons places do that (some companies are worried the cooks will make food for themselves and call it a mistake)the reality is it's food and people get hungry especially if they don't know where their next meal is going to come from. And even though I think it is "technically" theft, only a *bleep* would ever try to make an issue out of it. If it was my business I wouldn't even bring it up even if you took the old food for you because you were hungry.but that's just my view.
SAT/LAH
Dave