To preface this question, I know some schools vary on the ethics behind eating meat or derivatives of animals. Regardless, for those traditions that do prohibit eating meat, what is the rationale behind this rule? For example, are the rules in place to ensure a practitioner retains a certain state of mind at all times (i.e., loving-kindness/compassion)? Or is it tied to karma/kamma? What is Zen Buddhism's take on this?
Thank you.
Hi Seth,
I would bite a live calf and then bite a live plant and then compare results.
Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__
A vivid and powerful answer. Thank you!Originally Posted by Jishin
Coincidentally, this is going to be the topic of the next episode of The Zen of Everything podcast. (Well, the topic is “animals,” and eating meat will be discussed.)
https://www.zen-of-everything.com/
Gassho,
Ryūmon
Sat
流文
I know nothing.
Hi SethTo preface this question, I know some schools vary on the ethics behind eating meat or derivatives of animals. Regardless, for those traditions that do prohibit eating meat, what is the rationale behind this rule?
Essentially, the Zen take on this is mostly that whether you eat meat is a matter of personal choice, depending on your circumstances, health and a number of other factors. Buddhism, including Zen, includes the precept of refraining from taking life and some people think that this explicitly rules out eating meat. However, even farming fruit and vegetables usually relies on using pesticides which kill insects and using land that would be the home to other animals.
In terms of Buddhist codes, early Buddhism, and the Buddha himself, set no hard and fast rules on this. However, the early sangha, as with many modern Theravadin monks begged for food so would not refuse to eat whatever they were given whether it contained meat or not.
The Buddha's own rule was that "If a bhikkhusees, hears or suspects that it has been killed for him, he may not eat it." Deliberately killing or having an animal killed was something that required confession. There were no rules given for Buddhist laypeople, only monks and nuns. When his cousin Devadatta proposed that the sangha should be 100% vegetarian the Buddha opposed this.
The Laṅkāvatāra Sutra contains express teachings against eating meat and is often quoted by people but this is thought to have been written in the fourth century CE with the final chapters, which contain the parts about not eating meat, added even later than that. The reasons given also can appear to be quite non-Buddhist so may have come from Taoist or other sources such as saying that eating meat will interfere with "holding a magical formula, or the perfecting of magical knowledge."
In essence, there is nothing in Buddhist teachings that explicitly say we should not eat meat, however there may well be good ethical and moral reasons for adopting a vegetarian diet as part of your own practice and some Buddhist traditions seem to have thought this. Here at Treeleaf we see it is for each person to decide for themselves based on their understanding of the precepts. However, one thing we do ask is that no one judges the choices of anyone else or thinks that it makes someone less Buddhist, less Zen or less compassionate because of their diet.
Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-
Hi Seth,
Kokuu well summarizes the history and my feelings here. Below I will reprint some sections on this from the Lankavatara Sutra, and you can see how it was presented there, later the basis for what developed in Chinese Buddhism, different from Indian and South Asian Buddhism where meat consumption is allowed today (vegetarianism is no longer the rule in Japanese, nor is it in Tibetan Buddhism, although some feel that it should be, and some practice so as a personal choice.) The entire Sutra is from long after the time of the Buddha, written during the Common Era, and some scholars believe that the meat eating section is an even later addition.
I believe that the strongest arguments now against meat eating are in the treatment of animals in industrial farming and the impact on the environment. As to the former, I personally believe that animals, in wild environments, live in cruel settings of survival of the fittest, in constant fear and pursuit, and that they do not think about death in the same way that humans do (with our vivid imaginings of the future, for animals are more in the moment.) I have seen films presenting the treatment of animals in industrial farms, and I believe that we can do better. We should start to move away from eating animals, and I hope that meat substitutes will become more common in the next few years. My family limits meat consumption, but we do eat some meat, fowl and much fish.
Personally, I do not believe that the reasons stated in the Lankavatara are coherent:
https://www.sraddhapa.com/lankavataraThe Blessed One said, ‘There are countless reasons, Mahāmati, why it is not appropriate for a compassionate bodhisattva to eat any kind of meat. I will explain them to you. In this world, Mahāmati, in the long course of saṃsāra, there is no living being who has obtained a physical form who has not been your mother, father, brother, sister, son, daughter, or had some other kind of family relationship to you. These beings are reborn in another state of existence, born from a womb as a wild animal, as livestock, or as a bird, or they are born as someone with whom you have a family relationship. How, then, can it be appropriate for a bodhisattva, a great being, to eat the meat of any kind of being, creature, or living thing whatsoever, when he wants to relate to all living beings as if they were part of himself, and wants to practise the Buddha-Dharma? Mahāmati, even rākṣasas become protectors, develop compassion, and give up eating meat when they hear the excellent nature of the Dharma of the tathāgatas. Certainly then, people who yearn for the Dharma will do the same. Therefore, Mahāmati, it is not appropriate for any living beings anywhere in the cycle of rebirths who have any notion of family relationships to eat any kind of meat. This is so that they might cultivate a perception of all living beings as being like their only child. It is not appropriate for a compassionate bodhisattva to eat any kind of meat. Even in exceptional circumstances, Mahāmati, it is not appropriate for a bodhisattva who is engaged in spiritual practice to eat any kind of meat. Meat from dogs, asses, buffalo, horses, oxen, human beings, and so forth are kinds of meat that are not eaten by ordinary people, but they are sold as suitable to eat by shepherds at the side of the road in order to make money. Therefore, Mahāmati, it is not appropriate for a bodhisattva to eat meat from anywhere at all.
‘It is not appropriate, Mahāmati, for a bodhisattva who loves purity to eat meat that comes from the union of semen and blood. It is not appropriate, Mahāmati, for a bodhisattva whose spiritual practice is to strive to develop love to eat meat, as this will cause living beings to shake in fear. For example, Mahāmati, when a dog sees a ḍomba, an outcaste, or a fisherman who desires to eat flesh – even from a distance – he will be gripped by fear and think, “These are accomplished killers. They will kill me too.” In the same way, Mahāmati, when other minute creatures of the air, the earth, or the water see a meat-eater – even from a distance – will, with their keen sense of smell, detect the scent of the rākṣasa, and quickly flee from such people, who may bring death. Therefore, Mahāmati, it is not appropriate for a bodhisattva whose spiritual practice is to dwell with great love to eat meat, because this will cause living beings to shake in fear. It is not appropriate, Mahāmati, for a bodhisattva to eat meat – which stinks and which is pleasing to ignoble people – because eating meat gives one a bad reputation, and because noble people abstain from it. Noble people, Mahāmati, do not offer bloody meat when they make offerings of food to the sages, and so it is certainly not appropriate for a bodhisattva to eat meat.
‘In order to protect the minds of a great many people, Mahāmati, it is not appropriate for a compassionate bodhisattva who wants to avoid the Buddha’s teaching being spoken ill of to eat meat. For example, Mahāmati, there are people in this world who speak ill of the Buddha’s teaching, saying “Why do these people who are supposedly living the life of a renunciant or a brahmin reject the food of the sages of old, and eat flesh like carnivorous animals with full bellies, terrifying minute creatures of the air, the earth, and the water, bringing terror to all about them as they wander through this world? These people destroy the renunciant life, they obliterate the brahmin life. There is neither Dharma nor discipline in them.” There are many kinds of people with a hostile attitude who speak ill of the Buddha’s teaching in this way. Therefore, Mahāmati, in order to protect the minds of a great many people, it is not appropriate for a compassionate bodhisattva who wants to avoid the Buddha’s teaching being spoken ill of to eat any kind of meat.
‘The stench of a dead body is universally considered to be disgusting. Therefore, Mahāmati, it is not appropriate for a bodhisattva to eat meat. When flesh is being burned, Mahāmati, whether it is the flesh of a dead person or of another kind of living being, there is no difference in the smell. Both kinds of flesh give off the same stench. Therefore, Mahāmati, it is not appropriate for a bodhisattva whose spiritual practice is to develop a love of purity to eat any kind of meat.
‘When sons and daughters of good family, Mahāmati, who have committed themselves to the Mahāyāna, spiritual practitioners engaged in spiritual practice, who dwell with love, who know incantations and wish to perform them, go forth to cremation grounds, to the forest wilderness, to far-off places, to places inhabited by demons, to a hut or some other place to meditate, they are hindered in accomplishing incantations and in attaining liberation. Thus, Mahāmati, seeing that it creates obstacles to all kinds of spiritual practice and accomplishment, it is not appropriate for a bodhisattva who desires to bring benefit to themselves and others to eat any kind of meat. Because perceiving physical forms brings about the desire to taste them, it is not appropriate for a compassionate bodhisattva who regards all beings as himself to eat any kind of meat. Reflecting that even the gods shun it, Mahāmati, it is not appropriate for a compassionate bodhisattva to eat any kind of meat. Reflecting that his mouth will emit the most terrible stench as long as he lives, Mahāmati, it is not appropriate for a compassionate bodhisattva to eat any kind of meat.
‘He sleeps uneasily, and he uneasy when he awakes. He has terrifying, hair-raising dreams filled with evil. Alone in an empty house, his dwelling is lonely, and demons seize his spirit. He may be struck by terror and begin to tremble at any time, for no reason. He does not know how much to eat. When he eats and drinks, he neither tastes properly, digests properly, nor feels properly satisfied. His intestines are filled with a great many worms and things which cause leprosy. He no longer even minds suffering frequently from disease. When I have taught my disciples to regard food as if it were the flesh of their own child, or as medicine, how can I approve of bloody meat as food for my disciples – meat which ignoble people serve and noble people abstain from, which is the cause of so many faults such as those I have described and removes so many virtues, which was not offered as food to the sages, and which is improper?
Sorry to run long.
Gassho, Jundo
STLah
Last edited by Jundo; 10-25-2021 at 12:59 AM.
ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
Do you feed your dogs only vegetables? I am curious.
Gassho, Jundo
STLah
ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
I feed them dog food but also leftovers. Leftovers include vegetables but they specially like the meat.
Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__
This bit is a bit ridiculous; it's the ultimate slippery slope argument.
Gassho,‘It is not appropriate, Mahāmati, for a bodhisattva who loves purity to eat meat that comes from the union of semen and blood. It is not appropriate, Mahāmati, for a bodhisattva whose spiritual practice is to strive to develop love to eat meat, as this will cause living beings to shake in fear. For example, Mahāmati, when a dog sees a ḍomba, an outcaste, or a fisherman who desires to eat flesh – even from a distance – he will be gripped by fear and think, “These are accomplished killers. They will kill me too.”
Ryūmon
sat
流文
I know nothing.
Thank you for sharing your stance and the Lankavatara Sutra, Jundo. This appears to be one of those topics where one has to determine for themselves their own path in this regard.
Also, thank you, Kokuu, for the history lesson. It appears this is an area of Buddhism ripe with some ambiguity and debate.
Buddhism is full of ambiguity. "Do not kill" is a precept. By taking a breath I kill untold number of microbes. I wash my hands I kill bacteria.
Recognize the harm we do just to be alive. Show the utmost appreciation for all life. Untold labors went into preparing our food.
May our practice and virtue be worthy to receive it.
I kill living beings when I cut my grass and smash insects against my windshield when I drive my car. I kill microscopic organisms if I take certain medicines. If I find a bug crawling around in my house I will capture it alive and put it outside. ???
Gassho
STlah
Shoki
That's no fun! hahahah
Gassho
Risho
-stlah
Email: risho.treeleaf@gmail.com
Hi guys,
This is a recurrent topic all over the Buddhist world. Kokuu and Jundo put it very elegant, so I'll just add this:
Life feeds on life. Even if you eat lettuce, it's a living being. What makes the difference, I think, it's that one follows the middle way and do not fall into excess. If you eat what you don't need and just do it out of gluttony, then you'd be taking lives that we shouldn't be taking.
But I'm sure I'm totally wrong ��
Gassho,
Kyonin
Sat/LAH
Hondō Kyōnin
奔道 協忍
Some people want rules, so they can do what they're told, and others understand that nothing is totally black and white and that they have freedom within a framework of ideals. Treeleaf is very much about shades of gray, and there aren't many fundamentalist viewpoints here (aside from, perhaps, the need to sit zazen).
I live next to a farm, and I see the farmers working year round. They don't set out to kill small animals when they harvest their wheat, but many get killed. They do set out to get rid of pests on their cabbage and brussels sprouts, however. So with that killing in mind, would you eat their wheat or their brussels sprouts?
Gassho,
Ryūmon
sat
流文
I know nothing.
I've been a vegetarian for 26 years, and I fully understand that even so, my consumption of food - and yours as well, being a vegan - results in the massive loss of sentient beings. The vow to "abstain from taking life" is impossible to adhere to. Just the tilling of once acre of a vegetable field kills countless beings from worms, voles, moles, gophers, etc., not to mention the killing of insects after the planting. It sounds like you are looking for a hard-and-fast rule to cling to. "Abstain from taking life" is not that rule. Each step, breath, meal, etc. kills or has the potential to harm and kill. We all draw the line at what is acceptable to us. You've drawn it very conservatively; I've drawn it less so; most draw it even less.
Sorry for running over.
Shinshou
Sat Today
When you say there there is no clear direction in the sangha on this matter, just know that this is a Soto Zen Buddhist sangha in the Japanese tradition. This tradition is not strictly vegetarian. Some Soto groups are, but it is not clearly defined in this tradition, hence everyone making their own choices on the matter.
Gassho
Sat, lah
求道芸化 Kyūdō Geika
I am just a priest-in-training, please do not take anything I say as a teaching.
Okay, you are right. If you wish to be strictly vegan/vegetarian, please do.
As a matter of fact, if you would like to be strict and regimented in practice, I support this and I now tell you now to be celibate, totally, give up all alcohol and any other mind altering substances, and avoid all curse words ... thoroughly ... in addition to avoiding all meat products. I am serious about this, Jd. I mean it. Will you commit? I will too if you do. Let's do it!
But let me also ask, are you calling the Buddha in India also not "clear cut" because he allowed meat eating for his monks? Was he wrong for not being a vegan?
Master Dogen, someone often seen as a "by the rules" fellow, had something surprising to say about the Precepts in general [in Shoaku Makusa]:
Gassho, J[T]he principle exists that what is right differs from world to world, just the same [as with wrong]. What is seen to be [right] is called right, just as the manner in which the Buddhas of past, present and future preach the same Dharma each in their own way. It is just the same although their preaching of the Dharma in the world accords with the occasion of the times. Even their life span and physical size are said to depend totally upon the occasion, yet they always preach the Dharma that is beyond differences. Thus, the right seen by a person of faith in devotional practice and a right by a practitioner of Dharma practice may seem far different from each other, yet they are not different. It is like how the keeping of the Precepts by a disciple [who follows the precepts literally] may be a violation of the Precepts for a Bodhisattva.
STLah
Last edited by Jundo; 10-26-2021 at 10:00 PM.
ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
It comes down to the individual making conscious choices not to just do that they want, but to really see if the choices they make are helpful or harmful in their lives, with honesty. There is no great diety here judging our decisions. Only ourselves, our own lives.
Telling a group of people that they are not allowed to have sex because Buddha says no, has never, EVER resulted in no one having sex, for example. In fact, it creates the opposite. By making it forbidden, people coerce each other in harmful, manipulative ways. This is what we avoid by not drawing a line in the sand of us versus them.
Gassho
Sat, lah
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
求道芸化 Kyūdō Geika
I am just a priest-in-training, please do not take anything I say as a teaching.
I believe that you may do well with a stricter interpretation of the Precepts.
It is the same in the Jewish world in which I was raised: I was raised in a very liberal home, in which there was no requirement to grow beards, not turn on the lights on the Sabbath, not even strictly avoid ham (of course, most Jews eat other meat). On the other hand, my cousin became very Orthodox and follows hundreds of precise rules to be close to his sense of God. (Another funny story is my other friend, an Israeli Hassid, who married a Japanese woman who became even stricter than he did! It drives him crazy! He won't eat meat and dairy products within 3 hours of each other, as forbidden in their tradition, but she insists on 6 hours, etc.! Oye.).
My conclusion is that some people do better with a looser, more flexible, less rule based practice with a good deal of focus on keeping a sense of some "blacks and whites" and many gray areas between. Within those "black and whites," one can still be a good and kind, decent person. There are definitely some absolutes: Do not do violence in anger, do not use drugs or alcohol to excess or in a way that is harmful, do not rob money simply to buy luxury goods (stealing, however, to feed the starving like Robin Hood is not so clear). Others need detailed, much stricter, precise and inflexible rules. Perhaps a more Orthodox Chinese or Theravadan approach to the Precepts would suit you (although, not Theravadan ... as they are not strictly vegetarian!)
Dogen, a stickler for rules, also surprisingly wrote this in Zuimonki (1-18), encouraging an examination of inner worth over outer lifestyle (although, he does not mean to donate to a monk who robs banks, gets in bar fights and is a drug pusher, for we all have limits!):
Gassho, JundoLay people offer donations to monks who seem to keep the Precepts and eat only what is allowed by the rules, keeping strict discipline while seen in public, but they begrudge offerings to monks who shamelessly violate the Precepts, drinking wine and eating meat, judging them as unworthy. Such discrimination in thinking truly goes against Buddhist principles … You should make offerings to monks regardless of their seeming virtue or its lack. Specifically, never decide someone’s inner virtue based upon their outward appearance …
STLah
Sorry to run long
Last edited by Jundo; 10-26-2021 at 10:31 PM.
ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
Also, one of are harder rules here, Jd, which I ask of you: Would you sign a first human name to your posts, and indicate "sattoday" before posting? Thank you:
SatToday - Make sure you have sat before joining in forum chat!
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...-forum-chat%21
You are breaking our rules!
Gassho, J
STLah
ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
Treeleaf is a global Japanese zendo; we have members here from all over the world, different cultures, backgrounds, etc. Insisting that one way of eating, farming, or living must be accepted and followed by all is unreasonable and untenable.
As mentioned before, the main rule here is Zazen -- "sat before chat."
It is nice that you have found a farming practice that supports your personal beliefs. This does not give you the right to judge or criticize any of us for practicing or living differently. One of the Precepts cautions against unconstructively criticizing or judging others. (Not the exact wording -- I'm paraphrasing, please forgive me.) This precept is probably the most difficult for me, so I especially work on this one daily!
This is a Japanese Zendo. It is the season of Ango, and we are studying the Precepts of Zen Buddhism. We aim for the Middle Way.
I ask to be corrected if my words are wrong or misguided.
Gassho2 meian st lh
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
My life is my temple and my practice.
Questioning is, of course, encouraged! But there will also be questioning back sometimes.
Thanks for your patience, Jd.
Gassho, Jundo
SatTodayLAH
ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
Many of the Buddhist teachings are about not grasping, clutching, etc. I recently realized that I have been clutching to my idea of a vegetarian lifestyle.
I realized that I derived great pleasure from my identity as a vegetarian, and that I subconsciously judged people who were not so.
I asked myself what it would be like if one day a doctor told me I needed meat in my diet to remain healthy. Would the loss of that conditional happiness cause me suffering?
The answer was yes.
So now I am not vegetarian.
Now I shop for meat, and I make an effort to purchase products where the animals are treated carefully and in environments matching their origin. It is nearly impossible where I live.
But before - where I felt disappointed in my fellow man - now I feel great sorrow, and compassionate thankfulness, for the animals I consume.
Sometimes the only rule we need is whether our practices come from grasping. This is, after all, what all of these liberally applicable precepts are pointing towards.
I would also quickly add that if we truly attempt to see the world without conditions and divisors, then there is no cow for me to consume, just as there is no me to do the consuming. The things that I consider myself or the cow are conditional. The decision to be vegetarian, vegan, or what have you, exists totally in the relative.
Gassho,
William
Sat
Like all precepts, I think this boils down to creating a life style that reduces possible internal/external conflicts to make our way smoother.
Eating meat is inflammatory, eating a plant based diet results in better overall health, a reduction in cardiovascular conditions, people with type 2 diabetes can come off all medication and potential no longer have diabetes, recovery times from injuries are reduced and the list just goes on and on. This is before we mention the harm done to beings to support such mass meat eating.
People in the past lived very different lives to the lives we live today and they had much less access to information than we do. I truly believe people today choose to willingly live in ignorance about their diet, which they could change. Change seems to be difficult for many people, lots of attachments to things they identify with. I myself lived in ignorance for a very long time, it's easy and it's often how the people around us live so its comfortable. However, there reached a point for me, as a result of ease of access to information, where I couldn't not stop and look at my diet.
It was really difficult at first. How do you change such a core part of your life, your eating habits, when you only know a singular way. I grew up in a relatively poor and uncultured household. We ate very basic and affordable typical meals of the region, all of which involved meat. I'd never experienced purely vegetable cooking until I was an adult. That lack of exposure results in ignorance, no awareness also meant I couldn't grown a budding interesting. How can I be interested in something I don't know existed. While I could have imagined why would I imagine such a thing? Something so counter to how I lived my life. Only once conditions aligned and I finally had both awareness and opportunity did I begin to learn about the negative sides to eating meat, not to mention just the idea that there are negative sides to it. I still see the macho vibe of "men eat meat" all around me, a mirror of Santa Clause wearing red and evidence that marketing is truly scary. House wives tales litter our cultural landscapes and influence our beliefs.
I cannot turn back now. I do what I can to the best of my ability. As time passes it's easier and easier. I now know a ton of veggie only meals, quick ones and fancy ones. My day to day life is now on a new normal. This is what all the precepts are to me. Making it so my daily life is smooth, that there is nothing at the back of my mind whispering away.
Its up to all of us to find our own life balance.
I have a friend who has a medical condition where he can't digest anything, he has a very limited life span. He wont live more than, christ it's scary to think but maybe 5 years. He eats organs, liver and such because they're very dense in nutrients. He throws up very often, so eating has become very un fun to him. He eats meat, it is the right thing for him to do. His situation and my situation are different. I don't think it's right for me to eat meat. I think this is the point of not grasping. Don't grasp so that it become one size fits all. Look at each situation and judge.
Gassho
Mark
ST
Last edited by Rousei; 10-27-2021 at 06:42 AM.
浪省 - RouSei - Wandering Introspection
Hey there, friend! Just keep in mind, buddhism does not deal with absolute values of things and since everything is empty, it means everything relies upon conditions to arise. That includes our moral judgments of good and bad. Buddhism is very much about “you do you”, BUT “here’s the guideline for that”. If the way is the “Middle Way”, then even “rules” are subjected to a “middle way” . Even enlightenment can be poisonous when one mindlessly chases it
I am with you in the sense that I too take a much stricter interpretation of the precepts, especially considering that aiming for more means achieving more. I do find it more beneficial for a sangha to open the precepts up for debate so that members can see how others interpret and understand them rather than to try to make them an absolute rule and then watch everyone break them.
So, in accordance with the dharma, I know that my karma comes from my own actions and thoughts so I can control and adjust that. That means I expect a lot from myself. It is not however the duty of a boddhisatva to be judge and executioner of other’s interpretation of the precepts. One of the precepts warns us against pointing out the faults of others. So I am harsh with myself and easy on others, since I don’t know their circumstances or struggles.
It’s not that Treeleaf does not have cohesion, it’s that individuals are different and what causes one to suffer does not do that to another. So there needs to be choice based upon a deep understanding of the buddhist concepts. That choice is individual.
Please don’t feel discouraged. Rather, wholeheartedly follow your own interpretation of the precepts to the best of your abilities and be a comforting presence for others, regardless of how they live their lives.
Excuse the long rant please!
SatToday
Bion
-------------------------
When you put Buddha’s activity into practice, only then are you a buddha. When you act like a fool, then you’re a fool. - Sawaki Roshi
Eating meat does not cause type 2 diabetes, eating carbs, and especially sugar, does. In fact, people with type 2 diabetes who switch to a high-protein, high meat diet do better.
https://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/53/9/2375
Gassho,
Ryūmon
sat
流文
I know nothing.
Ah, but it does … also cancer. That’s a fact.
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutriti...pe-2-diabetes/
https://www.nus.edu.sg/uhc/resources/articles
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3942738/
Bion
-------------------------
When you put Buddha’s activity into practice, only then are you a buddha. When you act like a fool, then you’re a fool. - Sawaki Roshi
I didn’t say it causes diabetes though
But that a plant based diet will take you off medication and in many people make them not diabetic. That is a fact, and is reproducible. My friend who is 70 is currently going through a diet change process and improvement can already be seen. Specifically type 2. It can help people with type 1 as well.
Gassho
Mark
ST
Buddhists conclude: “I am aware, therefore I neither am nor am not”
浪省 - RouSei - Wandering Introspection
Just to say, having investigated the evidence base of many kinds of diets, I actually found that research showed that eating a moderate amount of meat was not a problem and was likely beneficial for health. Having a substantially plant-based diet is good but adding fish, eggs and quality meat is also good. The problems seem to arise with simple carbs, unfermented dairy, and artificial food ingredients.Eating meat is inflammatory, eating a plant based diet results in better overall health, a reduction in cardiovascular conditions, people with type 2 diabetes can come off all medication and potential no longer have diabetes, recovery times from injuries are reduced and the list just goes on and on. This is before we mention the harm done to beings to support such mass meat eating.
That does not affect the moral arguments but the health-based reasons for being totally vegetarian or vegan are not, in my opinion, clear cut, although this was what I was expecting to find before starting to do the research. I have seen research that shows that type 2 diabetes can be reversed using a ketogenic diet which includes a fair amount of meat consumption, and that diet likewise improves cardiovascular health. The main factors seem to be including a substantial amount of plant-based content in the diet and removing simple carbs and artificial ingredients.
Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-
Recent research has shown that governments around the world have made huge mistakes in telling people to eat less fat. The fat > heart disease hypothesis was totally wrong, and in creating the food pyramids, telling us to eat lots of carbs, and little fat, the health of many populations has suffered. Obesity and type 2 diabetes are the result of hormonal imbalances due to eating too much carbs, and eating more meat and fat is actually healthy. The carbohydrate-insulin model of obesity, while not definitive, shows that what we have been told about healthy eating since the 1970s (in the US at least) has been dangerously wrong:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6082688/
Just as an anecdote: I went more or less vegetarian a few years ago, after having eaten vegetarian and even macrobiotic at different times of my life. This meant I was eating a lot more carbs - especially making bread - and early this year, I started a low-carb, higher protein and fat diet, and lost 6 kg in several months. I've introduced more carbs, but my weight is still slowly burning off.
No matter, more vegetables are certainly better no matter what, but in order to get enough energy, you'll be eating carb-rich vegetables, such as grains and root vegetables.
Gassho,
Ryūmon
sat
流文
I know nothing.
Of course, we cannot give medical advice here, so take all comments on dietary effect with a grain of salt.
(Actually, I will advise you to cut back on the salt)
Gassho, J
STLah
ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
Even that has been contested lately... I've read up on nutritional stuff in the past few years, and much of the bedrock of the research is based on very limited and often flawed studies, that have become gospel.Of course, we cannot give medical advice here, so take all comments on dietary effect with a grain of salt.
(Actually, I will advise you to cut back on the salt)
Gassho,
Ryūmon
sat
流文
I know nothing.
Well I play a doctor on the internet, so I offer free medical advice all the time.
Gassho
Risho
-stlah
Email: risho.treeleaf@gmail.com
Welcome Seth, I see you recently joined.
For a first time post you generated a lot of responses. That is a good thing because we all learn. I think the discussion diverged from your question so I will offer some thoughts that don’t address your question either
I have read this thread with attention and interest. I am an omnivore, it has been tough for me to shake 250,000 years of my family’s evolutionary/ecological history as hunter gathers. But I am working towards reducing meat consumption and trying to only obtain meat from ethical and environmental good sources. Times have changed and the human population has grown dramatically the last century and consequentially wildlife has declined dramatically. Therefore old ways of our evolutionary history as hunter and gathers have changed for most.. Another topic with many dimensions and lots of discussion can be had.
I spent 35 years as a wildlife conservationist in agricultural systems throughout the US and my task was to prevent and minimize the destruction of wildlife from agriculture and when possible take lands out of crop production and restore the ecosystem that was there before it was destroyed to plant crops. Conversion of native ecosystems to cropland is a major contributor to the loss of biodiversity. My point from that is whether we are vegetarian, vegan or eat meat that animals will die. This experience has influenced my perspective. So I do listen to others and try to learn.
JD I also commend your approach to farming which reduces impacts to biodiversity. I have and am supportive of similar approaches.
I have little to add about the moral argument presented on either side of this issue but respect the choice of each person as they address the complexity of the issues and what this specific precept means in their life. I will not add mine here but good for me to listen to others.
JD I have contemplated what you said about intention. I think I understand your point but it does not settle well in “my life” because I know what it takes to grow crops so the issue is too close to me.
With that said I commend those who choose a vegetarian lifestyle and believe all of us must consume less meat for environmental reasons. Those concerns range from climate change to extensive conversion of native ecosystems and loss of biodiversity to produce meat. When I taught ecology decades ago I said that it took 10 lbs of corn to produce one pound of beef. Now that calculation may be outdated and I did not research it before posting. My point is that we could feed more people with the corn than the beef so we would need to covert less land to cropland.
I have always appreciated Treeleaf’s approach to discussing the precepts each year. There is much to ponder here.
With respect to all opinions though mine may differ
Doshin
St
Last edited by Doshin; 10-27-2021 at 08:32 PM.
PS. Sorry for long post. I could have gone on and on but remembered I was suppose to be brief oops
Doshin
St
Baloney.
Gassho, Jishin, ST
I like Baloney. Particularly with mustard.
Gassho, Shinshi
SaT-LaH
空道 心志 Kudo Shinshi
I am just a priest-in-training, any resemblance between what I post and actual teachings is purely coincidental.
E84I - JAJ
Baloney is keto friendly. Good for you.
Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__
https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...ab-grown-meat/
https://apple.news/AAt1lv95WShO4ApP3Xp4K-w
מאמרים מעניינים
Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__
I can't see the apple news article because it needs an app, but I 100% support the meat substitute route. It is in my new book on Zen in the Future, "BUILDING the FUTURE BUDDHA!"
Gassho, J
STLah
ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
That's what the Apple article is about. Meat grown in a lab. Very expensive to do initially but it should be a doable thing (commercially) in the future. Very exciting I think.
Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__
ALL FOR SUBSTITUTES AS WELL! Burgers without the dead bodies?!!? Yes please!
Bion
-------------------------
When you put Buddha’s activity into practice, only then are you a buddha. When you act like a fool, then you’re a fool. - Sawaki Roshi
The only ethical question is whether, from a Buddhist point of view, pretending to violate a Precept is the same as violating a Precept. It is something like the debate whether playing a video game with violence and killing people is, in some sense, violating the Precept against violence and killing people. (I sometimes say that, in any case, the game is much MUCH better than actually killing people!!That's what the Apple article is about. Meat grown in a lab. Very expensive to do initially but it should be a doable thing (commercially) in the future. Very exciting I think.
Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__)
Also, it is actually an old thing in Buddhist cooking: If you go to a monastery in China or Japan, or a "Buddhist vegetarian" restaurant in Chinatown or the like, you will find many many dishes where they do an amazing imitation chicken, pork or beef with mushrooms, tofu and such. Sometimes, it is really hard to tell the difference. So, it is not so new.
Here is a whole history and some recipes ...
https://www.foodandwine.com/cooking-...ist-vegetarian
https://www.thebuddhistchef.com/reci...fried-chicken/
This was all the topic of Kirk and my podcast this week, by the way ...
'The ZEN of EVERYTHING! Podcast' ... Episode 60 ... Animals
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...664#post292664
Gassho, J
STLah
Last edited by Jundo; 10-30-2021 at 10:40 PM.
ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
I can so relate to your experience. I've been vegetarian through all my teenage years and early twenties. Then I was vegan for almost 3 years and I've noticed what you did. The creation of a new identity "vegan", it is so much more than just diet and a lifestyle. I came back to eating meat due to health reasons. The truth is that strict vegan diet is hardly sustainable for majority of people.
The Middle Way cautions not only about greed but also warns against austerity that is another form of self indulgence.
Gassho
Sat
Both of your comments gave me pause. . Though I said I was an omnivore I have “clutched” onto a resentment I have had for many decades. Specifically I avoid products made with soybeans. My resentment comes from having seen 80% of the Lower Mississippi Valley Bottomland Hardwood Forest eliminated primarily for agriculture which soybeans are a major crop. I worked on programs to protect restore that ecosystem . I saw the felled trees, drained wetlands and plowed ground as extermination of billions of organisms. But reading many of the ideas expressed here I see I am clutching to an experience that has good and bad connected with it. And yes there is a middle way that can feed our species and yet reduce the impact to other species. I have always known that but I let my anger cloud that knowledge.
Thank you.
Doshin
St
It's been a very useful discussion. Thank you, everyone.
I had stopped eating meat, even before I started to be intensely interested in Buddhism. So my justification and reason were not about precepts then. I never watched any kind of brutal videos about what's going on in the meat industry, and my decision was not about the possible benefits of vegetables for my skincare too. At a certain point, I just felt that eating meat was making me suffer.
And what's my approach to this issue now? As many people have indicated above, I also believe that this decision is up to the person herself/himself. And Personally, I think that there is a relation between the first precept and vegetarianism. I do not intend to say that this is the only way to interpret the precept. I am not a scholar of Buddhism, so I am not able to analyze whether Buddhism originally included vegetarianism or not. However, even though the reasons stated in the Lankavatara Sutra seem a little bit unlogical or incoherent, I especially give importance to this reason: "...as this will cause living beings to shake in fear." Whenever I read the First Precept, it whispers to me that I have to "refrain from causing living beings to shake in fear." That's my personal understanding of the precept. And if someone else understands it in a different way, that's completely OK.
At the end of the day, I believe there's one thing for sure: Whether we eat meat or not, we should raise awareness about our diet and its possible benefits and harms. That's not good to create a strict identity and judge people harshly because of their diets. However, we can do our best, we can realize the extreme brutality of the meat industry and make other people also realize that unpleasant fact and we can find a way to show our own compassion to our mute friends. It would be a tremendous achievement to even realize that we are not masters of the world and that not all sentient beings exist to serve us.
Sorry for this long post. I just wanted to share.
Gassho, Doğukan.
SatLaH
Last edited by Dogukan; 10-30-2021 at 06:31 PM.
I suppose, even though we know there is no self that separates us one from another, we retain a sense of individual self, because it is a useful tool to navigate through this life. And as individuals, our interpretation of precepts will always vary --sometimes by a wide margin.
I don't identify as vegan because I have met too many vegan animal activists who harbour a great deal of hate and anger. I have never been that angry. They scare me.
Do I eat meat or fish? Not since 1976.
Do I eat dairy - hardly ever.
Do people build statues of me because of my amazing virtue? No. If they ever did, they would be greatly mistaken.
My wife eats fish and meat. Does that make me hate her? No. In most ways she is a much nicer person then me.
Life off the cushion is fascinating, isn't it? And after all our opinions are exchanged, it's great to return to that silent cushion, isn't it?
Bows
In Gassho
Seiko
stlah
Last edited by Seiko; 10-31-2021 at 05:31 PM.
Gandō Seiko
頑道清光
(Stubborn Way of Pure Light)
My street name is 'Al'.
Any words I write here are merely the thoughts of an apprentice priest, just my opinions, that's all.
Hi all
In addition to Jundo and Kirk's podcast on animals, I listened to this talk from The Village Zendo on the subject of killing and eating animals and thought it might be of relevance here...
https://villagezendo.org/2021/10/28/...ts-writ-small/
Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-
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