A question on Pure Land Buddhism and Zazen

[vanbui]

Hi Jundo/everyone,

I have a question on Pure Land Buddhism as this has been on my mind for a while. Before I start, I would like to say that I understand and accept the notion of different strokes for different folks and I mean no offence to anyone here who is practising Pure Land Buddhism. From my shallow understanding of Pure Land Buddhism, I believe they recite the name of the Amitabha Buddha and hope to be reborn in the Pure Land and achieve Buddhahood there. Pure Land Buddhism is common in China and Vietnam, and most Vietnamese temples I have visited are Pure Land Buddhism or a mixture of Pure Land Buddhism and Zen.

The basis of Pure Land Buddhism is devotion, and from my understanding, zazen is not required or essential. But wouldn't this be contrary to the Buddha's teachings? Who gets reborn in the Pure Land if, according to Buddhism, the self is empty? Dogen comprehensively stated in Bendowa that the idea of an immortal soul being reborn is contrary to the Buddha Dharma. I like what Dogen stated in Fukanzazengi that even the Buddha sat for six years and Bodhidharma sat for nine years, so how can we practise Buddhism without meditating? As far as I'm aware, the original Buddha did not advocate devotional practice.

I want to ask this question because most of my friends and family practise Pure Buddhism and are very convinced about rebirth. Most of the time, I keep silent as I'm not interested in rebirth. Should I even talk to them about meditation? Nevertheless, I feel if a practice leads to peace and contentment in this chaotic world, then it is a good practice. I believe even Kosho Uchiyama practised some Pure Buddhism.

Gassho,

Van
SAT&LAH

[Risho]

Van,

I don't know much about Pure Land Buddhism, but you may want to check out Sensei Alex Kakuyo. He has a youtube channel and a really good book.

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

[Naiko]

I haven’t read much about Pure Land, but what I have read left me with the impression that the Pure Land was not unlike Buddhanature and the relative/absolute, and that it exists here/now. I’m likely misinformed or perhaps that is TNH’s take on it. I am curious and hope someone can answer you. Hopefully their practice aids their suffering and inspires them.
Gassho,
Naiko
st lah

[Bion]

I think it is important to understand the concepts behind the Pure Land faith.

The Amitabha Sutra describes the wonders of the Pure Land, to arouse faith. Then beings are urged to seek rebirth in that Pure Land, and that is meant to get them to vow to do so. The third part of the Sutra teaches practitioners to recite the Buddha name in order to establish their practice.

But while in common folks’ understanding the Pure Land is somewhere out there in the West, a real, pinnable place, really.. the Pure Land is part of our True Nature. The Sanskrit name for the Land of Ultimate Bliss is “Sukhavati”. It is also called land of Pure Equanimity, land of Peaceful Bliss and a few other names. That, put in the context of Buddhist concepts, clearly is not a state of the body, but of the mind. So, the idea is to attain that state of enlightenment where one is as reborn in the lap of the Buddha, or in a lotus flower, overcoming hardship and delusion.

The practice of recitation of the Buddha name is to be done with the same deep focus that zazen is done with. Some Pure Land masters actually considered that people who are intellectually unable to grasp the “complicated” teachings of Zen were better off reciting the Buddha name with devotion, attaining a sort of samadhi that way, developing deep faith and renunciation.

The Amitabha Sutra actually concentrates on what is called the Buddha name recitation method of the sixteenth contemplation, because it is said we live in the Dharma-Ending Age, and there are many people with heavy karmic obstructions that are unable to attain higher levels of “visualization” or meditation.

Some Pure Land masters also felt that sitting idly on the cushion without proper faith, some people failed to comprehend the Compassion of Shakyamuni in teaching the practice of Buddha-name-recitation. The true sense of that practice is that it is not the deluded errant mind that should do the recitation, but the True Mind.

I remember that once, master Nishijima spoke of athletes, or runners attaining the same state of mind while exercising that we do in zazen. I think we should always remember what zazen is.
The differences are in the approach and method. We sit without a goal. They recite with a purpose. We stop seeking and accept what is found naturally, they pursue with the hope of attaining.

I think it is a harmful thing for ourselves to label one form superior to the other, even when it comes to ways of realizing the dharma. We say “dharma gates are boundless”. Is zazen still zazen if not done cross-legged? Is zazen still zazen if one is paralyzed? Is someone with impaired judgment deprived of the dharma? Do they lack buddha nature?

I guess, in my mind, I make no distinctions between forms if the mind is right.

As for the idea of rebirth, I guess it has less to do with a SELF, as it has to do with consciousness, or mind.. The Universe itself is like a repository of awareness or consciousness. If nothing is ever destroyed, but transformed, and everything is also empty of independent existence, Buddha permeates everything and resides in whatever form appears due to conditions. My mind is a continuation of everyone else’s. Sort of like all the devices in our homes are powered by the same electric current, that gives each of them exactly the amount they need. In a sense, we are reborn in every moment, our cells change, our skin sheds, our mind is renewed and we shape the whole world with every moment of existence. Every time we sit in zazen we are reborn as well in the Buddha’s Pure Land, in our very own Lotus Flower, abiding in harmony with the dharma, with the precepts, with our True Nature, with each other etc ..

I don’t even think this will be of any use and I’m sure Jundo can offer you better information

Also, please excuse my VERY LONG reply.

SatToday lah

[Seikan]

What Bion said...

This part, in particular, sums it up for me as well:

I guess, in my mind, I make no distinctions between forms if the mind is right.

Sitting on the cushion is one way (a very good way too!) of expressing our true mind/Buddha nature (even "zazen mind", if you will), but it is certainly not the only way.

Gassho,
Seikan

-stlah-

[Kaishin]

But wouldn't this be contrary to the Buddha's teachings?

No one knows what the Buddha taught. Who can say?

I want to ask this question because most of my friends and family practise Pure Buddhism and are very convinced about rebirth.

The vast majority of Buddhists in the world do not meditate (let alone every non-Buddhist in the world!), and believe all sorts of things that aren't discussed here, so nothing surprising there!

Should I even talk to them about meditation?

Nope. Unless they explicitly ask you about your practice, I'd leave it be. It's wonderful that we share the practice we have here, but it's not for everyone.

Nevertheless, I feel if a practice leads to peace and contentment in this chaotic world, then it is a good practice.

I agree! Consider as well, there are certainly Zen jerks in this world (including teachers) whose practice leads to chaos and stress...

I'll leave you with some comments from Domyo Burk:

What are the implications of the Heart Sutra’s teaching that the Buddhist path itself is empty? I can think of a number of them. For one thing, it means we shouldn’t get too attached even to Buddhism or to our own effort to awaken or escape our suffering. For another, we should recognize even Buddhism as “expedient means” – as a skillful way to point us toward a deeper perception of reality and a more liberated way of being, but not the most important thing in and of itself. Christianity or Sufism or spending time in nature might lead someone to a realization of shunyata and the ending of all suffering. Personally, I think this is one of the most awesome parts of the Heart Sutra – and as far as I know, Mahayana Buddhism is unique among world religions in emphasizing from the first that it, too, is empty.

-satToday

[Jundo]

Hi Van,

I look at this much as some folks uniting Zen practice with their Christianity: If one can find the "common groundless ground" in one's heart, that is enough. In fact, belief in Amida Buddha and the Pure Land, and Messiahs and Heavens, are very much alike. As you say, Zen and Pure Land are very blended on the Asian continent, and in Japan, even such Zen folks as Uchiyama Roshi and D.T. Suzuki had a place in their lives for Pure Land practices.

Zen found many ways to harmonize the beliefs, basically coming down to: Inside is outside, outside is in, self power and the universe providing "other power" are not two, and the Pure Land is not somewhere "out there" for "out there" is "in here."

Here is a rather long essay about how that common ground was found doctrinally through the centuries. There are several historical reasons why the two ways tended to stay more separate in Japan:

https://web.archive.org/web/20100609...ure%20Land.pdf

The basis of Pure Land Buddhism is devotion, and from my understanding, zazen is not required or essential. But wouldn't this be contrary to the Buddha's teachings? ... As far as I'm aware, the original Buddha did not advocate devotional practice.

For many, prayer is a kind of Zazen. Also, do you realize that our sitting Zazen is a kind of prayer? Yes, for sure, a prayer of gratitude in which nothing is asked, thus we sit. I would let those who find Buddha in prayer just pray, for crossing the legs or pressing the palms together and bowing is not a matter of shape or form.

Who gets reborn in the Pure Land if, according to Buddhism, the self is empty? Dogen comprehensively stated in Bendowa that the idea of an immortal soul being reborn is contrary to the Buddha Dharma.

Dogen very clearly, in his many writings, was a rather traditional Buddhist fellow who believed in rebirth. I do not believe that he mentions the "Pure Land," but he does talk about "next lives" after the heart stops in this one. He also believed that one could see through all that and be liberated even in this life. Buddhists have found many solutions to what "gets reborn if there is no self," for example, our stream of Karma that is like a line of falling dominoes, there yet cannot be pinned down. Personally, I am agnostic and "let what ever happens happen" about rebirth, believing that the most important thing is to live good now whether there are next lives or not. I also see rebirth in every blade of grass and child's smile.

Gassho, J

STLah

Sorry to have run long

[bakera3312]

Van,

My scholarship is very relevant for this discussion! I'm an academic who studies pure land Buddhism (mostly within the bounds of Japan).

I would agree with a lot of the responses that have been so far but I just wanted to add that the idea of being reborn in the pure land is not totally outside of traditional Buddhist beliefs. Traditionally Buddhists believed in transmigration from one life to the next. To say that there is not a self is to say that there is not a single self who is unchanging. So from a traditional Buddhist perspective the transmigration from one life to the next is merely a new configuration the aggregates.
So one of the things I think about meditating is it's about priorities.

Zen Buddhism and pure land Buddhism are very similar in that they are functionally simplistic interpretations of traditional Buddhist practices. There are certainly very complicated schools of Buddhism. the main difference between Zen Buddhism and pure land Buddhism is the difference of reliance on the other power or self-power. Zen Buddhism relies on self power the idea that we in our own minds create the world we want. Therefore we put a lot of emphasis on meditation because it is a task only we can do. Pureland Buddhism relies on other power particularly Amitaba. Believing that they cannot achieve enlightenment in this lifetime it is simply a waste of time to meditate. Relying on rebirth in the next life in a pure land is a better use of time than meditation from their worldview.

I'm not sure we can actually say the Buddha did not encourage devotion considering he wanted to be buried as a wheel turning monarch. Certain sutras seem to imply devotion was expected.

Tony,



Namu Amida Butsu (Worth a shot )

SAT

Sorry to run long

[bakera3312]

Hi Van,

I look at this much as some folks uniting Zen practice with their Christianity: If one can find the "common groundless ground" in one's heart, that is enough. In fact, belief in Amida Buddha and the Pure Land, and Messiahs and Heavens, are very much alike. As you say, Zen and Pure Land are very blended on the Asian continent, and in Japan, even such Zen folks as Uchiyama Roshi and D.T. Suzuki had a place in their lives for Pure Land practices.

Zen found many ways to harmonize the beliefs, basically coming down to: Inside is outside, outside is in, self power and the universe providing "other power" are not two, and the Pure Land is not somewhere "out there" for "out there" is "in here."

Here is a rather long essay about how that common ground was found doctrinally through the centuries. There are several historical reasons why the two ways tended to stay more separate in Japan:

https://web.archive.org/web/20100609...ure%20Land.pdf



For many, prayer is a kind of Zazen. Also, do you realize that our sitting Zazen is a kind of prayer? Yes, for sure, a prayer of gratitude in which nothing is asked, thus we sit. I would let those who find Buddha in prayer just pray, for crossing the legs or pressing the palms together and bowing is not a matter of shape or form.



Dogen very clearly, in his many writings, was a rather traditional Buddhist fellow who believed in rebirth. I do not believe that he mentions the "Pure Land," but he does talk about "next lives" after the heart stops in this one. He also believed that one could see through all that and be liberated even in this life. Buddhists have found many solutions to what "gets reborn if there is no self," for example, our stream of Karma that is like a line of falling dominoes, there yet cannot be pinned down. Personally, I am agnostic and "let what ever happens happen" about rebirth, believing that the most important thing is to live good now whether there are next lives or not. I also see rebirth in every blade of grass and child's smile.

Gassho, J

STLah

Sorry to have run long

Also some times when I mediate if my mind is hectic I will say "Namu Amida Butsu", because I like Amida and I need something to think about. I assume thats ok, dont cast me out! LOL

Tony,

[Kendrick]

Hi Van,

I look at this much as some folks uniting Zen practice with their Christianity: If one can find the "common groundless ground" in one's heart, that is enough. In fact, belief in Amida Buddha and the Pure Land, and Messiahs and Heavens, are very much alike. As you say, Zen and Pure Land are very blended on the Asian continent, and in Japan, even such Zen folks as Uchiyama Roshi and D.T. Suzuki had a place in their lives for Pure Land practices.

Zen found many ways to harmonize the beliefs, basically coming down to: Inside is outside, outside is in, self power and the universe providing "other power" are not two, and the Pure Land is not somewhere "out there" for "out there" is "in here."

Here is a rather long essay about how that common ground was found doctrinally through the centuries. There are several historical reasons why the two ways tended to stay more separate in Japan:

https://web.archive.org/web/20100609...ure%20Land.pdf



For many, prayer is a kind of Zazen. Also, do you realize that our sitting Zazen is a kind of prayer? Yes, for sure, a prayer of gratitude in which nothing is asked, thus we sit. I would let those who find Buddha in prayer just pray, for crossing the legs or pressing the palms together and bowing is not a matter of shape or form.



Dogen very clearly, in his many writings, was a rather traditional Buddhist fellow who believed in rebirth. I do not believe that he mentions the "Pure Land," but he does talk about "next lives" after the heart stops in this one. He also believed that one could see through all that and be liberated even in this life. Buddhists have found many solutions to what "gets reborn if there is no self," for example, our stream of Karma that is like a line of falling dominoes, there yet cannot be pinned down. Personally, I am agnostic and "let what ever happens happen" about rebirth, believing that the most important thing is to live good now whether there are next lives or not. I also see rebirth in every blade of grass and child's smile.

Gassho, J

STLah

Sorry to have run long

Thank you for this, Jundo.

Gassho,
Kendrick
Sat/Lah

[vanbui]

Hi,
I'm sorry for the delayed response as I have been buried in a mountain of paperwork in my surgery. Also, I wanted to peruse the Bendowa again before replying.

Thank you for the all insightful responses.

Bion - I always look forward to your helpful insight.
Keisan - Thank you for attaching that passage from Domyo Burk. I have listened and read most of her 181 podcasts - so informative and enlightening. I remember reading that passage and accepted that ultimately everything is empty, so why do we need to discriminate between forms?
Jundo -

For many, prayer is a kind of Zazen. Also, do you realize that our sitting Zazen is a kind of prayer? Yes, for sure, a prayer of gratitude in which nothing is asked, thus we sit. I would let those who find Buddha in prayer just pray, for crossing the legs or pressing the palms together and bowing is not a matter of shape or form.

I really like this passage and I agree with your sentiment. Personally, what Dogen states in Bendowa regarding zazen as the authentic and front gate for buddha-dharma resonates with me. The emphasis on continuous practice, making the best effort in each instant without a goal and that practice and enlightenment are not two make sense to me. I think the word authentic rather than superior is more of an apt description. However, I always consider myself a pragmatic person and there are many paths up the same mountain so we shouldn't insist our way is the best.

Gassho,
Van
Sat+Lah _/i\_

[Yamabushi]

I have been visiting the local Buddhist Monastery in my city. I practice zazen in their Buddha Hall and tea house in the Zen garden. The Venerable Khai Thien (Thich Tam Thien, PHD) is in charge. We eat lunch together twice a week and practice zazen and kinhin.

Khai Tien is from Vietnam and ordain in Jodo Shu Buddhism. However, he also attended grad school in Japan and became ordain in Soto Zen. The Zen garden at the monastery is heavily influenced by Soto Zen.

Yesterday I joined the sangha and took refuge in the Triple Treasure. I was given the Sanga name Dharma Tính không, which is Vietnamese for Dhamma Śūnyatā in Pali or Daruma Ku in Japanese. Today I begin sewing my rakusu under the direction of Hakubai Daishin Osho of the Hakubai Zen Center in Colorado. Hakubai has also received Dharma transmission in Tibetan Buddhism.

Many schools. One Dharma.


Gassho,

-Jared
(Sat Today)

[Jundo]

Lovely, Jared.

And should you ever wish, feel welcome to join us here for Jukai as well. I personally feel that one can never have too much Jukai!

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Yamabushi]

Lovely, Jared.

And should you ever wish, feel welcome to join us here for Jukai as well. I personally feel that one can never have too much Jukai!

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

Much thanks, Jundo! I would be honored to attend jukai with the Treeleaf sangha.


Gassho,

-Jared

[Byrne]

What you have to understand about Pure Land Buddhism is that it is a Method for liberation in the same way zazen is a method. In order for the method to be performed correctly one has to entrust fully in Amitabha (immeasurable light) Buddha’s vow for all beings who wishes to be reborn in his realm of sukhavati (sukha being the opposite of dukkha) without a hint of doubt. This realm is ideal for transcending dukkha. If you can’t do that the method won’t work and you should find a more suitable method for you. Like zazen.

In the story of Shakyamuni Buddha once he achieved enlightenment he recognized the same potential in all beings and compassionately wished for all beings to also be liberated. The story of Amitabha expands this concept of the Buddha’s boundless compassion and skillful means (upaya). Even though all beings possess the potential for Nirvana, most beings are very far away from achieving it due to karmic circumstance. The PL method is designed for anyone to perform regardless of their karmic burdens. It has been especially popular for illiterate and uneducated people who have trouble grasping all the fine details of Buddhism’s more sophisticated teachings but still hope to achieve liberation. But in the PL traditions it is also emphasized that our time and place is so distant from a fully enlightened Buddha (at least 2500 years) that it is impossible for anyone to be certain they are practicing the Dharma correctly no matter how educated or intelligent they appear.

One has to decide they want to be liberated and trust the BuddhaÂ’s solution to Dukkha is correct. Just like any other Buddhist. Entrusting in Amitabha is not entirely passive. It still requires constant self reflection to make sure oneÂ’s intentions and faith is being directed in the right direction. It is a deeply psychological and abstract practice.

Sukhavati and Amitabha are illustrated like a physical being and a physical place. But that is only so our minds can imagine them. Their actually ontology is more abstract. Amitabha is in Samboghakaya Buddha Body. Bliss body. Reward body. As opposed to Nirmanakaya which is physical body. Sukhavati is the realm of a fully enlightened Buddha’s influence. If we take the Sanskrit names more literally the method revolves around entrusting in the Immeasurable Light of Buddha’s compassion to provide a path towards a realm free of dukkha where one can ultimately become liberated. If we think of it this way the “faith” of PL isn’t that much different than the “faith” in practicing zazen. They are just different methods.

Gassho

Sat Today

[Jundo]

What you have to understand about Pure Land Buddhism is that it is a Method for liberation in the same way zazen is a method. In order for the method to be performed correctly one has to entrust fully in Amitabha (immeasurable light) Buddha’s vow for all beings who wishes to be reborn in his realm of sukhavati (sukha being the opposite of dukkha) without a hint of doubt. This realm is ideal for transcending dukkha. If you can’t do that the method won’t work and you should find a more suitable method for you. Like zazen.

My sense is much the same as the folks who find a space in their hearts to practice their Christianity or Judaism and Soto Zen together. There is a way, if the heart is vast enough.

But that is not my way, so I just bow to such folks, and their path different from my own. I can understand generally the feeling as they feel, but truly Zazen and Soto Practice is enough. We are no longer living in the day of folks being so "illiterate and uneducated" (although, reading the news these days, I often have my doubts on that! ), or lacking the luxury of time and resources, that the way of Shikantaza, and the wholeness and liberating power of this Path, cannot be fully explained, understood and mastered. This is why, here in this Sangha, we focus on Shikantaza and Dogen's ways, and not those other ways.

To each their own beautiful way.

Gassho, Jundo
STLah

Sorry to run long.

[bakera3312]

Homage to all the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas

Tony,

SAT

[bakera3312]

Same here for me and my path.

I like Amida, and the sutras but I look to his story as a means to improve my own compassion rather than a real pureland.

Tony,

PS: Sorry tried to reply to two different people.