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Thread: Respecting different beliefs? Even in ghosts?

  1. #1

    Respecting different beliefs? Even in ghosts?

    Hi Jundo/Sangha,

    I have a question about respecting different beliefs. I appreciate the notion of different strokes for different folks and different ways up the same mountain. However, my wife, mother-in-law, and her best friends (etc...)are big believers in ghosts, spirits, demons, gods, and superstition. A friend of my wife recently slept at another friend's place and said there were lots of spirits in her house and she needed to do a special ritual. As a man of science, I think this is utter rubbish, but sadly, my wife did believe this story. I try not to get myself involved in their discussions, but it's actually quite challenging if it's your wife. Every so often, I'll try to nudge my wife to ignore the superstition and live in the present moment. I would explain that in zazen, we don't try to find the answers to metaphysical questions, but we lose the questions entirely. The Way is actually simple if there is no picking or choosing. She does not find these answers helpful.

    How do you skillfully deal with this situation? Do you ignore them and not engage unless they ask you? I actually find this very difficult to deal with. Perhaps, I'm just very stubborn.

    Gassho,
    Van
    SAT+LAH
    Last edited by vanbui; 07-30-2021 at 05:33 PM.

  2. #2
    My family is multi-faith. In my family, we have atheist, pantheist/Buddhist, Catholic, Lutheran, Muslim, and so on. Sometimes there is tension, but this tends to happen if one person is putting their beliefs on others, or assuming that others must agree with them.

    Usually, we each just pursue our own interests and activities -- sometimes a few of us together. We try to take a "live and let live" approach to life, religion, etc., and it is mostly peaceful.

    If it were my situation -- if the situation were reversed -- I'd have a talk with my partner, explaining that I don't share their beliefs in this area, and the subject makes me uncomfortable. I'd also ask the purpose of their telling me the stories. Do they want help? Are they scared? Do they just need to talk but no help? What is my role in this? Since I find most social cues and interactions confusing, I ask questions to know what is expected of me, and how to fulfill my role.

    This is how I would approach an uncomfortable situation like this. This is just me, however.

    Sorry to run very long.

    Gassho, meian st lh

    Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
    迷安 - Mei An - Wandering At Rest
    adapting practice to chronic illness with covid

  3. #3

    Respecting different beliefs? Even in ghosts?

    Quote Originally Posted by vanbui View Post
    Hi Jundo/Sangha,

    I have a question about respecting different beliefs. I appreciate the notion of different strokes for different folks and different ways up the same mountain. However, my wife, mother-in-law, and her best friends (etc...)are big believers in ghosts, spirits, demons, gods, and superstition. A friend of my wife recently slept at another friend's place and said there were lots of spirits in her house and she needed to do a special ritual. As a man of science, I think this is utter rubbish, but sadly, my wife did believe this story. I try not to get myself involved in their discussions, but it's actually quite challenging if it's your wife. Every so often, I'll try to nudge my wife to ignore the superstition and live in the present moment. I would explain that in zazen, we don't try to find the answers to metaphysical questions, but we lose the questions entirely. The Way is actually simple if there is no picking or choosing. She does not find these answers helpful.

    How do you skillfully deal with this situation? Do you ignore them and not engage unless they ask you? I actually find this very difficult to deal with. Perhaps, I'm just very stubborn.

    Gassho,
    Van
    SAT+LAH
    Hereís my humble opinion on the matter: the approach should always be compassion. Their beliefs, whether based on truth or absolute mumbo jumbo, are very much real to them, so they experience real torment or joy because of them. Dismissing those beliefs mindlessly means dismissing them as people. Most of the time their beliefs donít affect anyone so, why be bothered by them, regardless of how we feel about their authenticity? Unless specifically asked to do so, why express an opinion that might cause someone else sadness or anger?
    Tolerance, compassion and kindness towards those who believe differently than we do open many more gates to real communication than criticism or mockery ever could.
    The Buddha way is that of compassion for all beings. Most of the time we should focus more on why it troubles us what others believe. It is also helpful to remember that someone else out there in the world feels exactly the same about our buddhist or even scientific beliefs.

    I apologize for once again rambling more than Needed.

    SatToday
    Bion
    美音

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  4. #4
    Member Seikan's Avatar
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    What Bion said.

    Just to add a personal perspective (aren't all perspectives personal?), until someone can prove to me that ghosts do NOT exist (as opposed to the other way around), then I feel that I should remain open to the possibility of their existence, even if I have never experienced one myself.

    As a wiser sage once said when faced with the differing/varying opinions of others, "Maybe so".

    Gassho,
    Seikan

    -stlah-
    聖簡 Seikan (Sacred Simplicity)

  5. #5
    Hi Van,

    I am also a rather skeptical fellow about such things, believing that the explanations are usually psychological, in the heart and such. But, when I encounter such situations, I may say so, but also add "well, I don't personally believe, but who knows, it may be so, there are many things about the world that we cannot fully explain."

    I think everyone above is speaking wisdom. Sometimes, if it is family, I just smile and go along with beliefs. It might be so, who knows, as Seikan says. If their beliefs are really oppressive (e.g., trying to convert you constantly), that is a different situation. But if it is just small things and events now and then, just smile and play along.

    I do not know if the ghosts will haunt you, but if you are not an obedient son-in-law, maybe your living mother-in-law will "haunt" you! So, keep her happy.

    Sorry to run long.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  6. #6
    My problem with these beliefs is that they are a slippery slope. It starts with angels and ends up with people thinking that Democrats are drinking the blood of children beneath a pizzeria in DC. Each time you let people run with crazy ideas it empowers them to find even crazier ones.

    Gassho,

    Ryūmon

    sat
    -----

    流文

    I know nothing.

  7. #7
    Hi,

    Thank you for all the great advice - there is real wisdom in here. After some reflection, I actually feel somewhat embarrassed for my reaction and feelings to other people beliefs.

    Meian - thank you for your advice. In the future, I will delicately ask my wife those questions and perhaps learn to live with each other beliefs.

    Bion - Your advice on compassion and tolerance is full of wisdom and skillfulness. I concur with your sentiments completely. I need to cultivate compassion and a good dose of wisdom! Much gassho.

    Seikan - Interesting perspective. I actually don't dismiss the possibility of there being ghosts or gods. You can never know, so why speculate? Thank you for sharing the saying from the wise sage.

    Jundo - thank you for your practical advice. I like your comment that there are many things about the world that we cannot fully explain, sp perhaps in the future I'll just smile and keep quiet. As an Asian male, I have been brought up to respect my elders, so I don't dare to challenge my mother-in-law! Plus, I think it is futile as she has strong beliefs in her superstition.

    Much Gassho
    Van
    SAT+LAH

  8. #8
    BTW, I just saw this today, which points out that white evangelicals in the US are more likely to believe Qanon and other conspiracy theories.

    https://www.economist.com/graphic-de...on-or-too-much

    Paywall, but you can see the chart and the lede.

    The conclusion of the article:

    "On average, more devout Christians tend to be more credulous when it comes to conspiracies."

    Gassho,

    Ryūmon

    sat
    -----

    流文

    I know nothing.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryumon View Post
    BTW, I just saw this today, which points out that white evangelicals in the US are more likely to believe Qanon and other conspiracy theories.

    https://www.economist.com/graphic-de...on-or-too-much

    Paywall, but you can see the chart and the lede.

    The conclusion of the article:

    "On average, more devout Christians tend to be more credulous when it comes to conspiracies."

    Gassho,

    Ryūmon

    sat
    Believe me, Buddhists are no less ... and probably more ... likely to have very strong belief in ghosts and possessions. Soto Zen Buddhism became influential in Japan, not for teaching Zazen, but for perfoming exorcisms in Samurai times. Even now, many Zen, Chan and other Buddhists have intense belief in ghosts. One example is this ... the famous Chan Master Sheng Yen ...



    The Dalai Lama says he does not believe in "ghosts," but if you listen, he makes a very find distinction from "invisible spirits" that he does believe in ...



    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 07-31-2021 at 11:05 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  10. #10
    Growing up, my family identified as Roman Catholics. I say "identified" because as first generation, American born people from European peasant, immigrants, their Catholicism was a mixture of Catholicism, spirts, statue worship, spells, hexes, superstition and all sorts of nonsense including the dreaded malocchio! (evil eye).

    As soon as I was old enough to think for myself I dismissed this but figured as long as they're not pushing it on me or roasting puppies, people can believe whatever they want. Trying to change people's minds is about the same as them trying to change yours.

    Gassho
    ST-lah
    Shoki
    Last edited by Shoki; 08-02-2021 at 03:35 AM.

  11. #11
    I have watched my mind dismiss things that were happening right in front of me, and I've watched it completely accept things as true that were flimsy at best. How can I trust this mind to discern what's true and what's untrue, what beliefs are valid and which are invalid? Of course there are practical limits: I'm probably not going to join every religion "just in case", but when it comes to others' beliefs I'm not really interested in accepting or rejecting them (generally speaking). I'm doing my own thing and that's largely where my attention is focused. Other people will do their own thing regardless of my approval, so why waste my energy?

    Gassho,
    Kyōsen
    Sat|LaH
    橋川
    kyō (bridge) | sen (river)

  12. #12
    I have similar issues with my Japanese husband and in-laws - very strong belief in all aspects of the supernatural.

    They know that I'm not that bothered about such stuff and there is no point in talking to me about it. I will listen to what advice the latest psychic has told them to do or not do and I only express opinions if I think the advice could be harmful and I ask them to consider that. One example was a claimed curse on one branch of the family which was psychically discerned to have been caused by the ex-husband's anger at having been divorced when alive. The psychic recommended that he perform a wedding ceremony between the ex wife and her dead ex husband to make him happy. This involved her wearing her wedding dress during a type of seance. When these details came out I was questioning about how this made the woman feel etc.

    In a nutshell, leave alone unless it might cause harm.

    Stewart
    Sat

  13. #13
    Hey Van,

    I apologize if this has been said on the thread already but here are my two cents worth:

    I often approach this as a practice in itself. Our ego-mind separates, distinguishes, classifies, labels, vilifies, blames, separates etc. So, adopting the 'Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind approach' I make a conscious effort to observe any aversion or uncomfortable, judgmental feelings that start to manifest when listening to people I disagree with.

    To that end, I very quickly recognize that it has nothing to do with them and everything to do with ME. MY idea of the world, MY ideas, MY presuppositions. And at the end of the day, if YOU (or the other) do not fit into MY mold of the world then you are separate.

    Ahhhhhhhh how delusional of me, 'I' am the only one creating the arbitrary separateness to begin with...... this is a really joyous realization that can help us move in the world way better. From there is Great Mind all the way.

    Once there, I listen with my HEART with Empathy and compassion and they become my teacher, my brother, sister, etc. and we are SO much more the same than different.

    I have actively practice this for years and learned to see past the ideas into the person. Then, intimacy and understanding is born. I think we have to practice this off and on the Zafu! Of course, still a work in progress.

    That's just my thoughts brother, take it with a grain of salt

    Gassho,

    Ippo

    SatLah
    Last edited by Ippo; 08-02-2021 at 11:09 AM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    One example is this ... the famous Chan Master Sheng Yen ...



    The Dalai Lama says he does not believe in "ghosts," but if you listen, he makes a very find distinction from "invisible spirits" that he does believe in ...



    Gassho, J

    STLah

    This was so fun to watch and shows that one can be a great teacher even if you don't personally fully embrace their views. The wisdom, charm and value of these men is immeasurable for me. I utterly love Master Sheng Yen. Thanks for the share, it made my day.

    Gassho,
    Silviu
    SatToday
    May all beings be happy,
    Silviu

  15. #15
    A good friend of mine once gave me incredible advice. If you want to get your point across you need to 1) know your audience and 2) only use words they understand.

    science can't get the point across if the audience lacks the vocabulary and perspective to understand what's being explained, even if the science is correct. likewise, many people who consider themselves rational and scientific often get confused by religious and mythical language that appears to conflict with the limits of a rational worldview. some superstitious beliefs may be harmful. but sometimes they are fulfilling a function to get a point across. listen deeply and learn to separate what is trivial and what is essential. we all believe things that aren't true. sometimes our mistakes will be revealed to us in this lifetime. sometimes we take our errors to the grave. this applies to ALL OF US, no matter how smart we think we are.

    if it gets the point across and isn't harmful, go beyond the words being spoken and get to the root of what is actually being said. do we want to be correct or do we want to get the message across?

    gassho

    sat today
    Last edited by Byrne; 08-02-2021 at 03:27 PM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Ippo View Post
    Hey Van,

    I apologize if this has been said on the thread already but here are my two cents worth:

    I often approach this as a practice in itself. Our ego-mind separates, distinguishes, classifies, labels, vilifies, blames, separates etc. So, adopting the 'Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind approach' I make a conscious effort to observe any aversion or uncomfortable, judgmental feelings that start to manifest when listening to people I disagree with.

    To that end, I very quickly recognize that it has nothing to do with them and everything to do with ME. MY idea of the world, MY ideas, MY presuppositions. And at the end of the day, if YOU (or the other) do not fit into MY mold of the world then you are separate.

    Ahhhhhhhh how delusional of me, 'I' am the only one creating the arbitrary separateness to begin with...... this is a really joyous realization that can help us move in the world way better. From there is Great Mind all the way.

    Once there, I listen with my HEART with Empathy and compassion and they become my teacher, my brother, sister, etc. and we are SO much more the same than different.

    I have actively practice this for years and learned to see past the ideas into the person. Then, intimacy and understanding is born. I think we have to practice this off and on the Zafu! Of course, still a work in progress.

    That's just my thoughts brother, take it with a grain of salt

    Gassho,

    Ippo

    SatLah
    Yes, but, one can also criticize what one sincerely believes to be superstitious beliefs, especially if they are having deleterious effects on someone one knows or on a family or group. There are times to speak up!

    If Van bites his tongue and does not speak out in this case, in my belief, the main reason is simply to preserve a harmonious relationship with his wife and mother-in-law. He can smile and keep grandma happy, but still say to himself that, while there are mysteries in this world, he sincerely believes that such beliefs in ghosts and demons are baloney. Furthermore, there may be times when things become so oppressive (can't say, however, exactly when that is) that one should tell grandma directly that one thinks, as one's personal view, that it is baloney.

    Sorry to run long.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 08-02-2021 at 03:37 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Byrne View Post
    A good friend of mine once gave me incredible advice. If you want to get your point across you need to 1) know your audience and 2) only use words they understand.

    science can't get the point across if the audience lacks the vocabulary and perspective to understand what's being explained, even if the science is correct. likewise, many people who consider themselves rational and scientific often get confused by religious and mythical language that appears to conflict with the limits of a rational worldview. some superstitious beliefs may be harmful. but sometimes they are fulfilling a function to get a point across. listen deeply and learn to separate what is trivial and what is essential. we all believe things that aren't true. sometimes our mistakes will be revealed to us in this lifetime. sometimes we take our errors to the grave. this applies to ALL OF US, no matter how smart we think we are.

    if it gets the point across and isn't harmful, go beyond the words being spoken and get to the root of what is actually being said. do we want to be correct or do we want to get the message across?

    gassho

    sat today
    Faced this with some vaccine resistant friends recently. Hard to find the right words or gestures to get the point across.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by vanbui View Post
    Hi Jundo/Sangha,

    I have a question about respecting different beliefs. I appreciate the notion of different strokes for different folks and different ways up the same mountain. However, my wife, mother-in-law, and her best friends (etc...)are big believers in ghosts, spirits, demons, gods, and superstition. A friend of my wife recently slept at another friend's place and said there were lots of spirits in her house and she needed to do a special ritual. As a man of science, I think this is utter rubbish, but sadly, my wife did believe this story. I try not to get myself involved in their discussions, but it's actually quite challenging if it's your wife. Every so often, I'll try to nudge my wife to ignore the superstition and live in the present moment. I would explain that in zazen, we don't try to find the answers to metaphysical questions, but we lose the questions entirely. The Way is actually simple if there is no picking or choosing. She does not find these answers helpful.

    How do you skillfully deal with this situation? Do you ignore them and not engage unless they ask you? I actually find this very difficult to deal with. Perhaps, I'm just very stubborn.

    Gassho,
    Van
    SAT+LAH
    Hi Van, Your wife is a continuously changeable complex entity just like yourself. You can exercise patience and loving kindness in these situations whilst knowing that each being live within their own universe with their unique perspectives. Humbly consider that none of us have access to ultimate reality whether we embrace a more modern skeptical outlook so flamboyantly embraced in the west or choose a different perspective altogether. Living in the moment means accepting and loving her as she is with all your heart while being patient and supportive. It's a certainty both of you will die, nobody knows when. Our lives take less then the blink of an eye in the cycle of it all. So let it all go / instant Zazen time . Our opinions matter next to nothing, our love and compassion transcend words and cultural paradigms. (Personal experience, multiculturally married to a very different person twelve years now ). I apologize for going over the three sentences, I wish I was wise enough to be briefer.

    Gassho
    Silviu
    SatToday.
    May all beings be happy,
    Silviu

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Ippo View Post
    Hey Van,

    I apologize if this has been said on the thread already but here are my two cents worth:

    I often approach this as a practice in itself. Our ego-mind separates, distinguishes, classifies, labels, vilifies, blames, separates etc. So, adopting the 'Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind approach' I make a conscious effort to observe any aversion or uncomfortable, judgmental feelings that start to manifest when listening to people I disagree with.

    To that end, I very quickly recognize that it has nothing to do with them and everything to do with ME. MY idea of the world, MY ideas, MY presuppositions. And at the end of the day, if YOU (or the other) do not fit into MY mold of the world then you are separate.

    Ahhhhhhhh how delusional of me, 'I' am the only one creating the arbitrary separateness to begin with...... this is a really joyous realization that can help us move in the world way better. From there is Great Mind all the way.

    Once there, I listen with my HEART with Empathy and compassion and they become my teacher, my brother, sister, etc. and we are SO much more the same than different.

    I have actively practice this for years and learned to see past the ideas into the person. Then, intimacy and understanding is born. I think we have to practice this off and on the Zafu! Of course, still a work in progress.

    That's just my thoughts brother, take it with a grain of salt

    Gassho,

    Ippo

    SatLah
    Hi,

    Thank you, Ippo, for your insightful opinion on our ego-mind, and I agree with you that this is an excellent opportunity for practice. I'm not a confrontational person, and I often avoid getting into an argument about religion and belief. I know I have a firm belief in the Zen path. I like what Bion said earlier in the thread; unless specifically asked to do so, why express an opinion that might cause someone else sadness or anger? I often just listen and rarely offer an opinion unless specifically asked for one. The main reason why I felt uncomfortable with this situation was because of my dear wife. I suppose I wanted her to be less superstitious and her beliefs in the absolute mumbo jumbo, in my view, caused me some unease. Again, I agree this is more to do with me than with my wife. Jundo is absolutely correct in his observation that I prefer preserving a harmonious relationship with my wife and mother-in-law than getting into a pointless argument. My mother-in-law has an unshakeable belief in the supernatural, and I believe it's easier to move mountains than to challenge her beliefs! However, I wouldn't shy away from challenging a harmful or dangerous belief that could cause harm to someone else. Sorry to run long.

    Gassho,
    Van
    SAT+LAH

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Faced this with some vaccine resistant friends recently. Hard to find the right words or gestures to get the point across.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Last year I was wearing a mask at the laundromat in the mountain town Iíve been living in since Covid hit. A biker couple who werenít wearing masks started making all kinds of obnoxious comments about how much they hated masks. Clearly trying to start something. So I said, ďYeah but you know whatís scarier than Covid? Facial recognition software! I love the masks. Makes me
    Feel protected from being spied on.Ē They were quite charmed by my point. I mean itís about protection. Does that count as Upaya?

    Gassho

    Sat Today

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Byrne View Post
    Last year I was wearing a mask at the laundromat in the mountain town I’ve been living in since Covid hit. A biker couple who weren’t wearing masks started making all kinds of obnoxious comments about how much they hated masks. Clearly trying to start something. So I said, “Yeah but you know what’s scarier than Covid? Facial recognition software! I love the masks. Makes me
    Feel protected from being spied on.” They were quite charmed by my point. I mean it’s about protection. Does that count as Upaya?

    Gassho

    Sat Today
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyōsen View Post
    I have watched my mind dismiss things that were happening right in front of me, and I've watched it completely accept things as true that were flimsy at best. How can I trust this mind to discern what's true and what's untrue, what beliefs are valid and which are invalid? Of course there are practical limits: I'm probably not going to join every religion "just in case", but when it comes to others' beliefs I'm not really interested in accepting or rejecting them (generally speaking). I'm doing my own thing and that's largely where my attention is focused. Other people will do their own thing regardless of my approval, so why waste my energy?

    Gassho,
    Kyōsen
    Sat|LaH


    This resonated for me, thank you. All except the last sentence. If other people are us and we are them, then energy spent interacting is not wasted... it does not need to be a competition of wills/ideas.

    Gassho,
    Charity
    sat/lah

  23. #23

    Respecting different beliefs? Even in ghosts?

    Quote Originally Posted by coriander View Post


    This resonated for me, thank you. All except the last sentence. If other people are us and we are them, then energy spent interacting is not wasted... it does not need to be a competition of wills/ideas.

    Gassho,
    Charity
    sat/lah
    Sometimes, it is actually wiser to save that energy, especially when using it can lead to arguments, heated discussions, resentment or frustration. There are those times we clearly see the person talking to us has their mind set and they are not talking to us or listening to us, they are simply waiting for us to finish so they can say whatever they already had prepared, with no regard for our opinions. Even the Dhamapada says there are those times itís best to stay away - in a loving and compassionate way, of course - from mindless people, as they can be a trigger to us and us to them.

    SatToday
    Bion
    美音

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  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Bion View Post
    Sometimes, it is actually wiser to save that energy, especially when using it can lead to arguments, heated discussions, resentment or frustration. There are those times we clearly see the person talking to us has their mind set and they are not talking to us or listening to us, they are simply waiting for us to finish so they can say whatever they already had prepared, with no regard for our opinions. Even the Dhamapada says there are those times it’s best to stay away - in a loving and compassionate way, of course - from mindless people, as they can be a trigger to us and us to them.

    SatToday
    Ahh.. Thank you, Bion. I think you have unwrapped for me the part I had not understood.


    sat/lah

  25. #25
    Ancient Zen practitioners fully solved the problem of the spirits a long time ago after thousands of years of struggle... That is the direction I think I would go personally. Technically I think it is it is true?

    Gassho,
    Gareth

    Sat today, attempted Lah

  26. #26
    Ancient Zen practitioners fully solved the problem of the spirits a long time ago after thousands of years of struggle... That is the direction I think I would go personally. Technically I think it is it is true?
    Could you explain a little more, please?

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    -sattoday/lah-
    ------------------------------------
    Feel free to message me if you wish to talk about issues around practicing with physical limitations. This is something I have been sitting with for a fair while and am happy to help with suggestions or just offer a listening ear.

  27. #27
    My late Korean / Japanese grandma in-law used to say that Japanese ghosts would never both me because 1) I was a Christian (I must be as ALL white people are) 2) Japanese ghosts can't speak English, so would ignore me.

    Stewart
    Sat

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Stewart View Post
    ... 2) Japanese ghosts can't speak English, so would ignore me.
    Be careful, they can use Google translate now.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  29. #29
    If spirits are not real, and only seem real, then perhaps they are a product of the mind, e.g. our fears and ruminations?

    Gassho,
    Gareth

    Sat today

    Edit: was meant as a reply to Kokuu

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by bad_buddha_007 View Post
    If spirits are not real, and only seem real, then perhaps they are a product of the mind, e.g. our fears and ruminations?

    Gassho,
    Gareth

    Sat today

    Edit: was meant as a reply to Kokuu
    What in our individual realities isnít a product of the mind?

    SatToday
    Bion
    美音

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  31. #31
    Some people sit staring at a blank wall with no expectations of gaining for some period of time every day.

    There is a lot of diversity in what one believes. I donít have any reason to doubt the existence of ghosts. People tend to put too much credence into what they can see, hear, smell, touch, and taste.


    Tairin
    Sat today and lah

  32. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Bion View Post
    What in our individual realities isnít a product of the mind?

    SatToday
    There is this stuff called air that we find useful?!

    Gassho,
    Gareth,
    Sat today

  33. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by bad_buddha_007 View Post
    There is this stuff called air that we find useful?!

    Gassho,
    Gareth,
    Sat today
    The mere fact we talk about It and acknowledge its existence and know its usefulness means the mind has conceptualized it, and made it part of our conscious reality.

    SatToday


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Bion
    美音

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  34. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Bion View Post
    The mere fact we talk about It and acknowledge its existence and know its usefulness means the mind has conceptualized it, and made it part of our conscious reality.

    SatToday

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    I agree with what you say here - but perhaps air is part of a person’s reality even if the person hasn’t conceptualised it? Air is part of my cat’s reality too, even though he doesn’t realise this at all?

    Gassho,
    Gareth

    Sat today

  35. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by bad_buddha_007 View Post
    I agree with what you say here - but perhaps air is part of a personís reality even if the person hasnít conceptualised it? Air is part of my catís reality too, even though he doesnít realise this at all?

    Gassho,
    Gareth

    Sat today
    Which is why I said INDIVIDUAL or perceived reality. In my reality the taste of durian fruit did not exist until 3 days ago when I tried it for the first time, although durian is absolutely a thing. Aliens could very well be living and doing the hokey pokey right now on a different planet, yet in our collective reality, they do not exist. color is also very much real for most people, though a person blind from death does not and will not ever know it, although by obtaining the concept of color, it exists in a different form than for most of us.

    SatToday
    Bion
    美音

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  36. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by bad_buddha_007 View Post
    I agree with what you say here - but perhaps air is part of a person’s reality even if the person hasn’t conceptualised it? Air is part of my cat’s reality too, even though he doesn’t realise this at all?

    Gassho,
    Gareth

    Sat today
    Ah, the PERFECT opportunity for this Koan ...

    “The wind was flapping the temple flag. Two monks were arguing about it. One said the flag was moving; the other said the air was moving. Arguing back and forth they could not agree on the truth. The Sixth Ancestor said, ‘It is neither the air that is moving nor the flag that is moving. It is your mind that is moving’. The two monks were struck with awe”

    Jundo would say that the flag, the air, the moving, the temple, the Ancestor, Gareth, Jundo, the cat and mind are all each other, each and all, such that Ancestors hang from flag poles and Gareth is meowing ... the flag fully embodies mind and Jundo, Bion is the Sixth temple not moving an inch. Is it all moving or is it all still? Which and what is not all and each?

    Boo! says the Ghost!

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 08-09-2021 at 01:40 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  37. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Ah, the PERFECT opportunity for this Koan ...

    “The wind was flapping the temple flag. Two monks were arguing about it. One said the flag was moving; the other said the wind was moving. Arguing back and forth they could not agree on the truth. The Sixth Ancestor said, ‘It is neither the wind that is moving nor the flag that is moving. It is your mind that is moving’. The two monks were struck with awe” [

    Jundo would say that the flag, the air, the moving, the temple, the Ancestor, Gareth, Jundo, the cat and mind are all each other, each and all, such that Ancestors hang from flag poles and Gareth is meowing ... the flag fully embodies mind and Jundo, Bion is the Sixth temple not moving an inch. Is it all moving or is it all still? Which and what is not all and each?

    Boo! says the Ghost!

    Gassho, J

    STLah


    Gassho,
    Onkai
    Sat/lah
    On (Warm)
    Kai (Sea)
    I have a lot to learn; take anything I say that sounds like teaching with a grain of salt.

  38. #38

  39. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Bion View Post
    The mere fact we talk about it and acknowledge its existence and know its usefulness means the mind has conceptualized it, and made it part of our conscious reality.
    This is my perspective, too. Of course spirits are real; the problem is when people think they're really real. They're real in the same way "team spirit" is real; we can't say spirited teams have no spirit, and yet we can't say any given team spirit is a glowing person-shaped entity hovering under the bleachers. That spirit can just be how it is and it doesn't need to conform to our expectations for how it must exist or appear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Ah, the PERFECT opportunity for this Koan ...

    ďThe wind was flapping the temple flag. Two monks were arguing about it. One said the flag was moving; the other said the air was moving. Arguing back and forth they could not agree on the truth. The Sixth Ancestor said, ĎIt is neither the air that is moving nor the flag that is moving. It is your mind that is movingí. The two monks were struck with aweĒ

    Jundo would say that the flag, the air, the moving, the temple, the Ancestor, Gareth, Jundo, the cat and mind are all each other, each and all, such that Ancestors hang from flag poles and Gareth is meowing ... the flag fully embodies mind and Jundo, Bion is the Sixth temple not moving an inch. Is it all moving or is it all still? Which and what is not all and each?

    Boo! says the Ghost!
    "So you should view this fleeting world --
    A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream,
    A flash of lightening in a summer cloud,
    A flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream."



    Gassho
    Kyōsen
    Sat|LAH
    橋川
    kyō (bridge) | sen (river)

  40. #40
    Member Onka's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Location
    rural queensland australia.
    Whatever helps someone get through life's challenges is OK with me as long as it's not affecting them or others in a negative way.
    Gassho
    Onka
    ST
    穏 On (Calm)
    火 Ka (Fires)
    aka Anna Kissed.
    Pronouns She/Her They/Them.
    Life's too serious to be taken seriously.
    No Gods No Masters No Borders

  41. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Onka View Post
    Whatever helps someone get through life's challenges is OK with me as long as it's not affecting them or others in a negative way.
    Gassho
    Onka
    ST


    Lovely.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  42. #42
    Do I practice ight mindfulness, right speaking, and right action? I learn, "Do to others as you do to you, do to them?" Most important to follow; Right action, earth needs us to consume less. Consider consumption. Is this right speaking? Right action as right mindfulness, right consumption for others?
    Gassho
    sat/ lah
    Last edited by Tai Shi; 08-22-2021 at 04:23 PM. Reason: concision, spelling.
    ...Thought and action/ your life would never experience, (even before you were born), But he also being the Devine Cannot, He etched every moment of your existence, With His own hand... Haifiz

  43. #43
    That's great, I will use it.
    Sat today

  44. #44
    Hi Van,
    As someone who has been in and out of the spiritualist community a few times I sympathize with both you and your spouse.

    I find that if you are feeling a reaction to her beliefs in spiritual things it might because it clashes with your own. But as Jundo has said their maybe things we don't know.

    I say let bygones be bygones. If it doesn't harm you or others whats the harm in a mixed belief family. My spouse and I work in this way. My mother as well. You can coexist. Keep in mind that she should be respectful of you too. If it doesn't cost you anything why not have a ritual, it could be fun. Doesn't mean you are stepping off the pillar of science. Just embracing your spouse as someone you love.

    Hope I have helped
    Kaisho
    St

    Sent from my SM-A205U using Tapatalk


    Edit: Grammar. Also I see Van has already responded. I am better later than never I guess.
    Last edited by Kaisho; 08-15-2021 at 02:43 PM.

  45. #45
    I sit for women and girls and families, my family!? Of Taliban do I have These precepts to guard?
    Gassho
    sat/ lah


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Last edited by Tai Shi; 08-22-2021 at 04:27 PM. Reason: revision
    ...Thought and action/ your life would never experience, (even before you were born), But he also being the Devine Cannot, He etched every moment of your existence, With His own hand... Haifiz

  46. #46
    Do we follow rules concerning length, manner, and frequency of posts?
    Gassho
    sat/ lah
    Tai Shi


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Last edited by Tai Shi; 08-22-2021 at 04:26 PM. Reason: revision
    ...Thought and action/ your life would never experience, (even before you were born), But he also being the Devine Cannot, He etched every moment of your existence, With His own hand... Haifiz

  47. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Tai Shi View Post
    Do we follow rules concerning length, manner, and frequency of posts, or do we forget about it?
    Gassho
    sat/ lah
    Tai Shi


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Still three sentences if possible and Sat/ Lah at the end

    SatToday lah
    Bion
    美音

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  48. #48
    I think i depends on the politeness of the person.

  49. #49
    I will follow request of our teacher while being polite. If I am not polite, please, any member let me know.
    Gassho
    sat/lah
    ...Thought and action/ your life would never experience, (even before you were born), But he also being the Devine Cannot, He etched every moment of your existence, With His own hand... Haifiz

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