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Thread: How should I choose the Zen practice to commit to?

  1. #1

    How should I choose the Zen practice to commit to?

    Hello everyone,
    I know it is a very general topic. I apologize for it.
    I have been practicing and trying different traditions for about two years (mindfulness, vipassana, korean zen whadu, shikantaza). In recent months I have focused on Zen practice, but jumping from shikantaza to whadu practice every few days. For some reason, I can't decide which practice I must follow regularly. I continually have doubts because I do not know how to decide between the practice that I think I should continue to be more consistent with my need to let go of my tendency to control and 'wanting things' (shikantaza) and the practice that, in the short term, relaxes me and makes me 'feel better' and less anxious (whadu). It is a doubt that begins to torture me.
    How can one choose the practice to commit to?
    How can I break the circle of doubts and constant changes of practice?
    Thank you in advance.
    V.

    SatToday
    Last edited by VictorV; 12-08-2020 at 03:24 PM.

  2. #2
    You are asking this question in the Sangha where the Master is a Dogenphile, the answers has to be Shikantaza But jokes aside I'm a bit like you and have experimented with few practices. So far Shikantaza proved to be the "easiest" and the most challenging at the same time. Oh, how I have doubt it! Just sitting and arriving with each breath without wanting and rejecting is just the perfect thing to do (for me personally). As Jundo said, you are in Trafalgar Square and you are trying to figure it out which Underground line to take to get to London. So I sit with the faith and conviction that I am already where I supposed to be. Shikantaza is my root sitting practice yet I do enjoy exploring from time to time by taking different "underground lines", my favourite being Antipasanti (mindfulness of breathing). I hope you'll find your perfect line.
    Appologies for running long.
    Gassho
    Sat

  3. #3
    I have also practiced the various zen traditions , but I must say that koan ( hwadu ) is only possible with a qualified teacher around , whereas shikantaza is easier to practice alone at home
    plus for me koan was not the right path. I was too much working towards a goal.
    shikantaza became my choice in the end , so now being here as koan has to be performed in sesshin , which is expensive here in the Netherlands
    gassho
    sattoday
    Hosei
    Mountains are waters and waters are mountains ............

  4. #4

    How should I choose the Zen practice to commit to?

    I don’t know much about other practices, but I don’t believe zazen is exclusive at all. Sitting zazen is what it is and it is done on its own, with no expectations or goals as one is completely in zazen while doing it. Whatever other practices you might do in order to relax, unwind, gain insight etc has nothing to do with shikantaza. It’s like saying one has to either sit zazen or do yoga/ go to the gym/ read books / get a massage to relieve stress / or go to some church.

    SatToday


    (Super late edit, but I’ve just realized I went over the three line goal! I apologize for that and for not apologizing before )
    Last edited by Bion; 12-03-2020 at 10:54 PM.
    Bion
    -------------------------
    When you put Buddha’s activity into practice, only then are you a buddha. When you act like a fool, then you’re a fool. - Sawaki Roshi

  5. #5
    Member Seishin's Avatar
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    Sit zazen and drop the need and desire for all things, including which other practice you need or desire. Simples.

    Sat


    Seishin

    Sei - Meticulous
    Shin - Heart

  6. #6
    You say you have doubts. Doubts about what exactly? Choosing the wrong path?

    What expectations are you bringing to practice?



    Tairin
    Sat today and lah
    Last edited by Tairin; 12-02-2020 at 11:04 AM.
    泰林 - Tai Rin - Peaceful Woods

  7. #7
    I’ll paraphrase a quote I read recently by Reb Anderson: Buddhist teachings can be summed up by the words “stop shopping.” Stop shopping for a better experience, a better way, something different.... Oh, I do get the impulse to seek more and more (maybe this new thing will be the one, will be the answer-*what answer?*). Especially now, we just have so many choices, where as just a short time ago we’d be extremely lucky to find the dharma in any form. But having met people from many religions who struck me as having attained a certain degree of enlightenment or understanding that was fundamentally the same though their practices were different, I think it’s less about the vehicle than what we bring to it. I think it’s really good to try to find a teacher you feel a connection with, who inspires and challenges you. But at some point you have to sit with the doubt and dig in and stay when the initial glow wears off and you feel restless, bored, and impatient—practice with that mind that wants to go shopping. Even if you practice Zen for 40 years and then adopt another practice, you will not have wasted your time; it’s all just your path. (Apologies for rambling on.)
    Gassho,
    Krista
    st

  8. #8
    Member Seishin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VictorV View Post
    Thank you all for your words. I feel identified with your reflections and I will try to apply your advice, which is very interesting. I think your words will help me to commit to the practice of shikantaza. Dogen wins! ;-) I suppose that I bring two problems to practice: I try to make the practice 'useful' (to be more relaxed, less stressed) and a certain fear of committing myself to a wrong practice (at least from my personal point of view or for my own 'characteristics').
    Thank you all for your contributions.
    I hope to see you soon at the Zendo!
    Oh Shikantaza is not uesful at all, as often quoted it is good for nothing. But at the same time everything. When stressed sit stressed, when relaxed sit relaxed. Just accept all states and wave them goodbye as they pass. There is no right and wrong practice, just practice. So just sit.

    sat


    Seishin

    Sei - Meticulous
    Shin - Heart

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by KristaB View Post
    I’ll paraphrase a quote I read recently by Reb Anderson: Buddhist teachings can be summed up by the words “stop shopping.” Stop shopping for a better experience, a better way, something different....
    This hits home!!! Thank you for sharing Krista

    Gassho,
    Dee
    ST


    Enviado desde mi SM-G973F mediante Tapatalk

  10. #10
    These practices aren't mutually exclusive, you can do both... which probably doesn't help.


    Gassho,

    Heiso

    StLah

  11. #11
    There's plenty of good advice above already, but I'd like to add a bit of caution, if I may. While you can most definitely practice zazen along with other practices, if you try to mix practices that have similarities, it may lead to unnecessary confusion. For example, you may run into difficulties by trying to alternate between Shikantaza and Vipassana practice as there are many similarities (depending on the form of Vipassana). On the other hand, alternating Shikantaza with a more devotional practice might be just fine. In the beginning though, it is usually best to pick one form of practice and stick with it for a while before trying something else.

    First ask yourself why you are drawn to practice in the first place. Are you looking for relaxation? If so, that is fine. Start with a form of practice that is geared toward just that. Are you looking for something more? If so, then perhaps Shikantaza is the answer. You will certainly find a lot of advice and support for that practice here.

    Here's the good news, you don't have to have all the answers right away! Pour yourself into one practice to start, see how it goes for a while, then try another if you feel compelled to do so. I would just caution against jumping around too much, especially at the beginning. I did that myself decades ago, and all it did was confuse me further at the time. But then again, perhaps that was just me.

    Gassho,
    Rob

    -stlah-

    (apologies for running long...)

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by jake_b View Post
    I don’t know much about other practices, but I don’t believe zazen is exclusive at all. Sitting zazen is what it is and it is done on its own, with no expectations or goals as one is completely in zazen while doing it. Whatever other practices you might do in order to relax, unwind, gain insight etc has nothing to do with shikantaza. It’s like saying one has to either sit zazen or do yoga/ go to the gym/ read books / get a massage to relieve stress / or go to some church.

    SatToday


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Or eat or sleep or breathe.

    Gassho,

    P

    Satlah
    東西 - Tōsei - East West
    there is only what is, and it is all miraculous

  13. #13
    Thanks for all this wisdom. I am sure that I will return periodically to this thread. Gassho.
    V.

  14. #14
    Might this be more of an emotional issue? I have the exact same feeling, jumping from one practice to the other for years. In the end, at least in my case, I have been avoiding to commit to one practice due to fear of facing reality just as it is. When I saw this line that you wrote: "I continually have doubts because I do not know how to decide between the practice that I think I should continue to be more consistent with my need to let go of my tendency to control and 'wanting things'" I really identified with it.

    When you say "the practice that I think I should continue", drop that thought. How does the body feel? Where is your heart headed towards? If you really sit with your feelings and trust your gut, it might be easier to make a decision. This is being helpful in my case, because I tend to overanalyze things, neglect my own needs and emotions and be haunted by the same dilemma that you have been facing.

    This is not so much a Zen perspective, but my own personal experience. In any case, much metta to you and hope you find your own path.

    Gassho, Tomás
    Sat&LaH

    Sorry for going over 3 sentences.

  15. #15
    It can be good sometimes to just go back to square one and say, "Ehhhhh??" _()_

    gassho
    shonin sat today and also lah
    Visiting unsui: use salt

  16. #16
    I am also someone that has often jumped between practices in the past. It seems to me this is just another manifestation of "the grass is always greener on the other side".

    "Oh Vipassana is what I need to practice to become the person I see in my mind and strive for."

    "Oh no its not Vipassana but its mantra and chanting."

    "Never mind that didn't work either maybe Shikantaza is the ticket. "

    "Hmm that isn't doing it either. Maybe I wasn't doing Vipassana correctly. Lets go back to that."

    We set expectations for an outcome when we start these practices. When the outcomes don't manifest in the way we want or expect we look for something else to get us there. Human nature.

    Jim
    Sat today

    Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Anka; 12-03-2020 at 11:52 PM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Anka View Post
    It seems to me this is just another manifestation of "the grass is always greener in the other side".
    All that I said above is encapsulated in what Jim shared!

    Gassho, Tomás
    Sat&LaH

  18. #18
    I believe that different paths are suited to folks with different needs (heck, I don't believe that even Buddhism is necessarily the right path for all people, and some may do better as strictly Christians, Jews, Muslims or atheists in their own life.) Each must find the path or teacher or practices that resonate for one's own needs.

    I will simply post this one old essay, which is about the crazy-wise nature of Shikantaza amid a world in which we constantly hunt, search, reach for the next book, run after then next shiny thing to fill the holes within (rather than knowing the Wholeness within and without even as we keep working and building) ...

    SIT-A-LONG with Jundo: WHAT's NEXT!?!
    https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...ight=searching

    Almost each week someone asks me, "What comes next in my practice? How do I deepen it? What should I do now? What book should I read with all the secrets? I feel like something is still missing and that I must do more."

    But how can I respond to such a question when the very heart of this Path is learning to live and be this life radically FREE OF THE NEED FOR 'WHAT'S NEXT', LIBERATED OF 'SOMETHING MORE THAT NEED BE DONE', FULFILLED OF 'ANYTHING MISSING'!
    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 12-04-2020 at 01:32 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  19. #19
    Thanks for your testimonials. I am comforted to read that you too have gone through the same frustration as me and how you have been able to overcome it by committing yourself to shikantaza. Many thanks to Jundo for being able to take the reflection further. I feel like you've pushed your words even deeper to the source of the problem. Gassho

  20. #20
    As Jundo says, there are different paths up the mountain. Some do peter out before the top, but you still have made progress and you can sometimes work you way to a new path and continue. However, if you do is start a path, go back down, start a new path, etc - then you are never going to make any progress towards the top of the mountain.

    Gassho,

    Shinshi

    SaT- LaH
    空道 心志 Kudo Shinshi
    I am just a priest-in-training, any resemblance between what I post and actual teachings is purely coincidental.
    E84I - JAJ

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinshi View Post
    As Jundo says, there are different paths up the mountain. Some do peter out before the top, but you still have made progress and you can sometimes work you way to a new path and continue. However, if you do is start a path, go back down, start a new path, etc - then you are never going to make any progress towards the top of the mountain.

    Gassho,

    Shinshi

    SaT- LaH
    "Dogen also emphasizes in other essays in Shobogenzo that every step up the mountain is the mountain, that all aspects of awakening and Buddha - from the very thought of practice, to practice, Awakening and passing away - don't turn us into anything we were not all along".

    Gassho
    Sat

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Ania View Post
    "Dogen also emphasizes in other essays in Shobogenzo that every step up the mountain is the mountain, that all aspects of awakening and Buddha - from the very thought of practice, to practice, Awakening and passing away - don't turn us into anything we were not all along".

    Gassho
    Sat
    空道 心志 Kudo Shinshi
    I am just a priest-in-training, any resemblance between what I post and actual teachings is purely coincidental.
    E84I - JAJ

  23. #23
    I've always liked the phrase, "Stay in one place and go deep." I heard it from Michael Wenger, who is part of the SFZC family.

    Gassho
    Sat, lah
    求道芸化 Kyūdō Geika
    I am just a priest-in-training, please do not take anything I say as a teaching.

  24. #24
    Member Onka's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Location
    Rural Queensland, so-called Australia

    How should I choose the Zen practice to commit to?

    .
    Last edited by Onka; 12-05-2020 at 01:05 AM. Reason: Apology for over 3 sentences
    穏 On (Calm)
    火 Ka (Fires)
    They/She.

  25. #25
    I think choose your first practice. No window shopping. Buy your product and take it home.
    In Gassho,
    Al
    Stlah

    I am advised and assisted by two feline temple guardians: Isabella and Consuela.
    Last edited by Seiko; 12-07-2020 at 11:38 AM.

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by VictorV View Post
    Hello everyone,
    I know it is a very general topic. I apologize for it.
    I have been practicing and trying different traditions for about two years (mindfulness, vipassana, korean zen whadu, shikantaza). In recent months I have focused on Zen practice, but jumping from shikantaza to whadu practice every few days. For some reason, I can't decide which practice I must follow regularly. I continually have doubts because I do not know how to decide between the practice that I think I should continue to be more consistent with my need to let go of my tendency to control and 'wanting things' (shikantaza) and the practice that, in the short term, relaxes me and makes me 'feel better' and less anxious (whadu). It is a doubt that begins to torture me.
    How can one choose the practice to commit to?
    How can I break the circle of doubts and constant changes of practice?
    Thank you in advance.
    V.
    Hi Victor,

    I find what helps is if you refine the question down a bit more. Like what do I actually want? Then the answer usually arises out of the question.

    Stop everything for a moment and sit with it for a while and then ask 'what is my deepest yearning really for right now?', as if your life depends on it.

    Gassho,

    Gram

    Sat today

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Gram View Post

    Stop everything for a moment and sit with it for a while and then ask 'what is my deepest yearning really for right now?', as if your life depends on it.
    Then, what appears when one stops all yearning, all measures of deep vs. shallow, life and death, and just sit? There is nothing to depend on, nothing to wager, for nothing to lose which is not ever gained.

    Gassho, J

    STlah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Then, what appears when one stops all yearning, all measures of deep vs. shallow, life and death, and just sit? There is nothing to depend on, nothing to wager, for nothing to lose which is not ever gained.

    Gassho, J

    STlah
    🙏🏽

    Gassho

    STday

  29. #29
    Member Onka's Avatar
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geika View Post
    I've always liked the phrase, "Stay in one place and go deep." I heard it from Michael Wenger, who is part of the SFZC family.

    Gassho
    Sat, lah
    Gassho
    Onka
    ST
    穏 On (Calm)
    火 Ka (Fires)
    They/She.

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