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Thread: How do you stop trying to fix yourself during zazen ?

  1. #1

    How do you stop trying to fix yourself during zazen ?

    Hello !

    Lately i'm going through a bit of a "zazen" crisis. I noticed more and more that when i'm practicing, i'm always trying to FIX something. I'm not relaxed enough ; i'm not paying attention enough ; i have too many thoughts or i have too few thoughts ; i'm too anxious and should not be cause there are no reasons to ; etc., etc. Always fixating on myself on how to make it "better". I know the answer : when you notice you are doing this, just go back to the breathe or to the posture and let it go ; but that in itself IS somehow trying to fix something. I also notice that this very "trying to fix myself" is what makes me feel bad in the first place, so id' like to stop it ! I also feel bad cause i'm far from practicing for the sake of others...

    How do you stop trying to fix yourself ?

    Gassho,

    Uggy,
    Sat Today,
    About to LAH
    Last edited by Jundo; 11-10-2020 at 10:56 PM.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Ugrok View Post
    Hello !

    Lately i'm going through a bit of a "zazen" crisis. I noticed more and more that when i'm practicing, i'm always trying to FIX something. I'm not relaxed enough ; i'm not paying attention enough ; i have too many thoughts or i have too few thoughts ; i'm too anxious and should not be cause there are no reasons to ; etc., etc. Always fixating on myself on how to make it "better". I know the answer : when you notice you are doing this, just go back to the breathe or to the posture and let it go ; but that in itself IS somehow trying to fix something. I also notice that this very "trying to fix myself" is what makes me feel bad in the first place, so id' like to stop it ! I also feel bad cause i'm far from practicing for the sake of others...

    How do you stop trying to fix yourself ?

    Gassho,

    Uggy,
    Sat Today,
    About to LAH
    Did you just sit with me in the Free Sitting Room, or am I mistaken?
    Trying to fix yourself is not bad, it just means you want to improve. Zazen, however, needs no improvement, which is a wonderful thing, really. Zazen can be sleepy, worried, easy, difficult, sore, anxious, long or short..but it always is zazen, so let it be what it is and just sit with all of it. You said it yourself: “lately” it’s been like this, but who can say what it’ll be like the next time you sit?

    Sorry for the extra lines!
    SatToday
    Bion
    -------------------------
    When you put Buddha’s activity into practice, only then are you a buddha. When you act like a fool, then you’re a fool. - Sawaki Roshi

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Ugrok View Post
    Hello !

    Lately i'm going through a bit of a "zazen" crisis. I noticed more and more that when i'm practicing, i'm always trying to FIX something. I'm not relaxed enough ; i'm not paying attention enough ; i have too many thoughts or i have too few thoughts ; i'm too anxious and should not be cause there are no reasons to ; etc., etc. Always fixating on myself on how to make it "better". I know the answer : when you notice you are doing this, just go back to the breathe or to the posture and let it go ; but that in itself IS somehow trying to fix something. I also notice that this very "trying to fix myself" is what makes me feel bad in the first place, so id' like to stop it ! I also feel bad cause i'm far from practicing for the sake of others...

    How do you stop trying to fix yourself ?
    Over time, you'll realize that there's nothing to fix.

    Gassho,

    Kirk

    sat
    流文

    I know nothing.

  4. #4
    I just sit with the fulfillment of sitting being sitting.

    If one wants nothing more than X, is totally fulfilled by X, then ... when Xing ... all is achieved.

    But, if while Xing, one craves Y or Z, then the trouble begins.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 11-10-2020 at 02:03 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  5. #5
    How do you stop trying to fix yourself ?
    Hi Ugrok

    I found the first step in the process was accepting the desire for things to be different and the mental attempts to fix that.

    When we sit, we can just watch ourselves trying to fix what we are doing and know that is okay.

    I would include that sense of 'needing to fix' and not push it away.

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    -sattoday-

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Ugrok View Post
    I know the answer : when you notice you are doing this, just go back to the breathe or to the posture and let it go ; but that in itself IS somehow trying to fix something.
    FWIW from my perspective as a novice I personally find Jundo's instruction for "open, spacious awareness" helpful. So not so much concentrating on one thing, or specifically letting thoughts go, but rather just sitting with the doors of my awareness fully open in the act of sitting so thoughts dissolve on their own in a wider field of awareness.

    Gassho,
    Kevin
    #ST #LAH

  7. #7
    Hi Uggy,
    You are still practicing for others! And thank you for your practice.

    I’m pretty new to Zazen, so I don’t have much wisdom to add, except that when such strivings come up for me, I give then an inner compassionate nod. I acknowledge that those are just another way for my mind to keep grasping at a sense of self and dance with dukkha. And I try to let them float by like any other thoughts. Jundo has posted a couple of teachings about Zazen as reenactment ritual. This, for me, shifted any ideas of Zazen as a practice I was striving to improve or even “do” to something else entirely. Yes, it’s a concept that I’ll likely drop when it’s time, but for now it inspires me. I can’t quite find the right words..so I am running long and apologize.
    Gassho,
    Krista
    st
    Last edited by Naiko; 11-10-2020 at 04:16 PM.

  8. #8
    Hi Ugrok,

    You are definitely not alone as you can see from all of the wonderful responses so far--we're all in this together.

    I think many of us have a desire to "fix" something about our lives, else we wouldn't be drawn to the practice in the first place, and that underlying desire also helps to keep us on the path to some degree. Without it, we may fall into a state of complacency about our situation in life. The key is finding the right balance so that we don't lean too far in either direction (complacency or endless striving). I myself am very much still learning how to walk this tightrope. More often than not, I lose my balance and fall off. Luckily, there is always a net below to catch me, and that net is the practice itself.

    When I find myself getting caught up in judging my practice while sitting, I try to take a step back and see the judging as just another bit of the Zazen "scenery". When we judge the judging itself, that just leads us further down the proverbial rabbit hole.

    Gassho,
    Rob

    -stlah-


    (Apologies for the extra sentences. The opportunity to think through this was a lesson for me as well. )

  9. #9
    Member Onka's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Location
    Rural Queensland, so-called Australia
    Hey Uggy
    I don't think your Zazen practice is in a bit of a crisis. To me it sounds like a natural plateau. Using a personal analogy I'd suggest your practice plateau is akin to my competitive swimming days where I'd still be training 12 times a week, still doing additional weight sessions, still doing additional soft sand running sessions yet my times for various events wouldn't change. I could sometimes go a whole season with no change then at one meet all of a sudden I've taken half a second off of a personal best time despite nothing changing in my regime. If I were you Uggy I'd just sit. If you catch yourself trying to fix things acknowledge it but continue sitting. One day you'll be sitting and afterwards you'll say hey, I wasn't trying to fix something. You will have come off of your practice plateau... but there'll be more so just sit.
    Gassho
    Onka
    Sat today

    *apologies for going over 3 sentences
    穏 On (Calm)
    火 Ka (Fires)
    They/She.

  10. #10
    This used to be a major fixation for me. I wish I could say that there was something I did to change it and settle, but really it was just practice and repetition. I guess the easiest way to put it is that I eventually got bored of worrying about it.

    Gassho
    Sat, lah

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    求道芸化 Kyūdō Geika
    I am just a priest-in-training, please do not take anything I say as a teaching.

  11. #11
    I just came across this in a new book, Discovering the True Self, a collection of excerpts from talks by Kodo Sawaki.

    “Many people come to me and say, "When I do zazen distracting thoughts arise." You realize why you know distracting thoughts arise? It's because when you practice zazen you calm down and notice the distracting thoughts. Zazen is colorless and transparent. That's why those thoughts and ideas are so clearly evident."

    Gassho,

    Kirk

    Sat
    流文

    I know nothing.

  12. #12
    How do you strop trying to fix yourself during zazen ?

    to

    How do you stop trying to fix yourself during zazen ?

    There is nothing to fix, everything is a shining jewel as it is, even wrong spelling is perfectly, rightly "wrong spelling."

    Yet, even so, I fixed your spelling. How's that?!

    (A Koan)

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Onka View Post
    Hey Uggy
    I don't think your Zazen practice is in a bit of a crisis. To me it sounds like a natural plateau. Using a personal analogy I'd suggest your practice plateau is akin to my competitive swimming days where I'd still be training 12 times a week, still doing additional weight sessions, still doing additional soft sand running sessions yet my times for various events wouldn't change. I could sometimes go a whole season with no change then at one meet all of a sudden I've taken half a second off of a personal best time despite nothing changing in my regime. If I were you Uggy I'd just sit. If you catch yourself trying to fix things acknowledge it but continue sitting. One day you'll be sitting and afterwards you'll say hey, I wasn't trying to fix something. You will have come off of your practice plateau... but there'll be more so just sit.
    Gassho
    Onka
    Sat today

    *apologies for going over 3 sentences
    A yet, and yet, all that swimming took place within the one pool, and you were actually going no where yet arriving with each stroke.

    How does one attain a "personal best" when there is neither a "person" nor anything to add?

    (A Koan)

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by RobD View Post
    ... I myself am very much still learning how to walk this tightrope. More often than not, I lose my balance and fall off. Luckily, there is always a net below to catch me, and that net is the practice itself. ...
    We do our best to keep balance and poise, peacefully crossing the rope of life. There are no nets to save us in the end.

    And yet, and yet, if we fall, there is no place to fall. Even stumbling and falling is perfectly stumbling and falling.

    And yet, and yet and yet, try not to fall, step by step.

    Of course, in rope walking, the secret in "trying not to fall" is not really fighting and trying, but simply relaxing, finding one's center, not struggling, giving up the effort and just walking.

    (A Koan)

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by KristaB View Post
    Hi Uggy,
    You are still practicing for others! And thank you for your practice.

    I’m pretty new to Zazen, so I don’t have much wisdom to add, except that when such strivings come up for me, I give then an inner compassionate nod. I acknowledge that those are just another way for my mind to keep grasping at a sense of self and dance with dukkha. And I try to let them float by like any other thoughts. Jundo has posted a couple of teachings about Zazen as reenactment ritual. This, for me, shifted any ideas of Zazen as a practice I was striving to improve or even “do” to something else entirely. Yes, it’s a concept that I’ll likely drop when it’s time, but for now it inspires me. I can’t quite find the right words..so I am running long and apologize.
    Gassho,
    Krista
    st
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin M View Post
    FWIW from my perspective as a novice I personally find Jundo's instruction for "open, spacious awareness" helpful. So not so much concentrating on one thing, or specifically letting thoughts go, but rather just sitting with the doors of my awareness fully open in the act of sitting so thoughts dissolve on their own in a wider field of awareness.

    Gassho,
    Kevin
    #ST #LAH
    Yes, wonderful. Lovely.

    Just to emphasize, though, that for folks who need, following the breath lightly is fine too. Some folks need that little extra anchor, for the mind can be like a boat in a stormy sea.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by jake_b View Post
    ... Zazen, however, needs no improvement, which is a wonderful thing, really. Zazen can be sleepy, worried, easy, difficult, sore, anxious, long or short..but it always is zazen, so let it be what it is and just sit with all of it. ...
    Yes, yes, beautiful.

    Sleepy Zazen is just sleepy Zazen, worried Zazen is perfectly worried Zazen. Bad Zazen is excellent "Bad Zazen."

    And yet, and yet, we do not want to wallow in worry, get tangled up in anxiety, nor sit there weighing and measuring whether our Zazen today is good or bad, easy or difficult. When sleepy, we just sit sleepy Zazen which is just sleepy Zazen ... and yet, we seek to get a good night's sleep too so that we are not so sleepy!

    (A Koan)

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  18. #18
    By the way, I was not kidding that we should sit Zazen with the faith that Zazen is whole and complete qua Zazen, with sitting is the one thing to do (and even if one does not believe so, treat it like blind faith, religious faith, even if part of you is not convinced yet, simply because the very trusting helps make it come true! If you think Zazen complete, it is. If you think Zazen incomplete, it is ... because the only measuring of "complete vs. incomplete" is subjective, between your own ears.)

    From Zen Master's Dance (my book ) ...

    Zazen is all the Buddhas and Ancestors sitting in our own moment of sitting, as if our sitting turns us into those Buddhas and Ancestors on the spot. We must have faith in that fact. We must taste vibrantly that the mere act of sitting zazen is whole and complete, the total fruition of life’s goals, with nothing lacking and nothing added to the bare fact of sitting here and now. No matter how busy our lives or how strongly we may feel tempted to be elsewhere, for the time of sitting we put aside all other concerns. To do this, we must have a sense that the single act of crossing the legs as Dōgen instructed (or sitting in some other balanced posture, as many modern students do) is the realization of all we’ve ever sought. That is why there is simply no other place to go in the world, nothing else to do besides sit in this posture.

    Even if we do not yet fully believe in the completeness of zazen, we can nonetheless have trust and faith in it, and that trust and faith will soon turn into an actual experience. A friend who is a Broadway performer and Zen practitioner once told me that the “non-method” of zazen is like the case of a method actor playing the part of Willie Loman in Death of a Salesman. First the actor merely pretends he is Willie but eventually comes to embody Willie from head to toe. So, if needed, we sit zazen in the role of a totally satisfied and equanimous Buddha until Buddha comes to life for us.

    ... Unfortunately, we modern teachers do not always sufficiently emphasize this sacred, complete fulfillment of just sitting. I have sometimes witnessed zazen explained to newcomers like this: “Just sit in an upright posture, let your thoughts go, just breathe.” I have heard the advice to students to “just follow the breath,” or “straighten the back,” or “don’t grab onto thoughts,” or “drop all goals,” all of which are right and good, but few teachers say something like: “Sit zazen with the conviction that sitting is all that is needed in life,” or, “Sit trusting that this sitting is the total fulfillment of all the universe,” or, “Sit with a subtle sense that, were you to die right now on the cushion, sitting alone would have made a complete life.” ...

    However, we should not think about or voice this truth of the completeness of zazen during zazen, but we must silently and subtly feel it deep down. Our feelings of lack or dissatisfaction will drop away in the wholeness and equanimity of sitting. Thus, I sometimes describe zazen as a “non-self”-fulfilling prophecy because, when we feel that sitting is complete, it is complete. On the other hand, if we feel that our zazen is incomplete, then it is incomplete. Zazen is just zazen, life is just life, but our judgment is subjective. How we see zazen is entirely up to us. But if we can know it as complete, we can do the same with all of life.
    (Sorry for running long, although I perfectly ran long)

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 11-11-2020 at 01:52 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  19. #19
    Member Yokai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Location
    Havelock North, Hawkes Bay, New Zealand
    Thank you Jundo (aka A Koan) and all

    Gassho, Chris satlah

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by kirkmc View Post
    I just came across this in a new book, Discovering the True Self, a collection of excerpts from talks by Kodo Sawaki.

    “Many people come to me and say, "When I do zazen distracting thoughts arise." You realize why you know distracting thoughts arise? It's because when you practice zazen you calm down and notice the distracting thoughts. Zazen is colorless and transparent. That's why those thoughts and ideas are so clearly evident."

    Gassho,

    Kirk

    Sat
    I like this... our minds are always doing something, but we don't notice until we sit quietly, then the racket of them can drive us crazy :-)

    I like to view "coming back" as an active process, rather than a passive "letting go". It's the same thing, but feeling like I am actively redirecting my mind to spacious awareness--perhaps with the momentary realization of the breath, the pain in my knee, my daughter's music blaring in her room, or the knowledge of my little speck of a self within the Milky Way galaxy--is more the thing than trying to figure out how to "open the hand of thought" to let them fly away on their own.

    Gassho
    Jakuden
    SatToday/LAH
    Last edited by Jakuden; 11-11-2020 at 02:38 AM.

  21. #21
    Thanks a lot for all the good advice.

    Gassho,

    Uggy,
    Sat today

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    How do you strop trying to fix yourself during zazen ?

    to

    How do you stop trying to fix yourself during zazen ?

    There is nothing to fix, everything is a shining jewel as it is, even wrong spelling is perfectly, rightly "wrong spelling."

    Yet, even so, I fixed your spelling. How's that?!

    (A Koan)

    Gassho, J

    STLah


    Gassho, Tomás
    Sat&LaH

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Ugrok View Post
    Hello !

    Lately i'm going through a bit of a "zazen" crisis. I noticed more and more that when i'm practicing, i'm always trying to FIX something. I'm not relaxed enough ; i'm not paying attention enough ; i have too many thoughts or i have too few thoughts ; i'm too anxious and should not be cause there are no reasons to ; etc., etc. Always fixating on myself on how to make it "better". I know the answer : when you notice you are doing this, just go back to the breathe or to the posture and let it go ; but that in itself IS somehow trying to fix something. I also notice that this very "trying to fix myself" is what makes me feel bad in the first place, so id' like to stop it ! I also feel bad cause i'm far from practicing for the sake of others...

    How do you stop trying to fix yourself ?

    Gassho,

    Uggy,
    Sat Today,
    About to LAH
    “What, in this moment, is lacking?”
    —attributed to Linji

    Chet
    ST/LAH
    Last edited by Chet; 11-26-2020 at 05:36 AM. Reason: Forgot ST/LAH

  24. #24
    When your mind starts acting like a child, stamping around and throwing temper tantrums, don't be angry at it. Just realize what it's doing and continue sitting. This might sound like the classic zen stuff you read on the net, but it basically is the only thing you can do. Sometimes, when the mind is really strong, I switch to imagining a sound of waves, and they wash away the thoughts. It is helpful if you have music stuck in your head like I did this morning

    Sharan
    SjeoDanas-SatToday

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