A Zen Sangha is not like Other Places

[Jundo]

Sorry this is long ...

Many folks come to a Zen group expecting some combination of spa, therapy session, vegan cooking class, Yoga retreat, Latte Liberal political gathering, episode of Oprah.

Many Buddhist Sangha, realizing that people will pay well for such things, give their well-healed (meaning almost anyone in a 1st world country compared to sub-Saharan Africa) patrons of the "Middle-Upper-Middle Way" just what the spiritual consumer market demands. The major magazines do the same, with worthwhile essays interspersed with cheap self-help advice, relaxation techniques and psycho-babble.

Sorry, this Treeleaf place tries to avoid much of that.

Our purpose is (as shocking as this may sound for a Buddhist group to say I guess) enlightenment and liberation from Dukkha. Sometimes folks assume that Dukkha must be the ordinary anxieties of modern life, the kind to be treated by a valium, a shoulder to cry on or visit to the psychiatrist. While aspects of Zen practice will often have a healthful effect on life's ordinary stresses and struggles as well, Dukkha's liberation is in fact nothing more nor less than the dropping of the self/other divide and the realization of One's True Face. Different purpose.

Yes, everything is politics, debate and discussion, consumerism and complexity. But we do our best to leave such things at the door of the Zendo, where we drop all politics, debate and discussion, the hungers of consumerism, while replacing complexity with simplicity and Just Sitting. Out there, all that confusion and conflict can be found everywhere from Facebook to Foxnews, CNN to the Times ... but here is not those places. We pull the plug on all the rest of the world for a time.

Thus, this is a place ... unlike most of the internet ... where we do not engage in political discussion or overt support of candidates. The only exception is for those subjects which might be directly arising from our Vows to Save Sentient Beings and Precepts, such as environmentalism, feeding the poor, providing health care for the sick, encouraging peace in the world, etc. We celebrate that women have equal access to political office including the highest in the land ... but we do not support a particular candidate. (If you wish to celebrate Kamala, wonderful, but then let's celebrate Amy Comey Barrett, Margaret Thatcher and Ivanka too, yes? Or, to avoid such debates, let's stay on the higher ground.)

We deal with Dukkha, the fundamental question and ultimate (as opposed to day to day) suffering. I am not going to tell people whom to vote for, except that they should be guided by their heart's encounter with the Precepts and Buddhist Values, Wisdom and Compassion, so should make study of those. That was my message here:

'The ZEN of EVERYTHING! Podcast' ... Episode 36 ... A Zen Guide to Elections
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...e-to-Elections

So how do we deal with someone who says, "I feel so anxious and confused about the upcoming elections/ I'm so worried about my kids future I can't practice/ I don't know how to practice amongst all this political turmoil/I'm so freaking angry right about what's going on right now I can't sit"??????

Why, by telling them to sit anyway, pull up a Zafu, forget the elections for a time, forget their kids for a time, forget past and future for a time, forget politics for a time and all the turmoil ... then perhaps, following the breath, realizing radical equanimity, dropping demands (i.e., practicing the art of Zazen) ... perhaps a Light & Wisdom will manifest in their heart which will actually provide some insight into the universal context of this election, the timelessness of the future ... a peace beyond all the turmoil and anger, not to mention sickness, aging and death. This is our Vow and Compassion, our engagement to help this world.

That's all I have to "sell" here. I ain't Oprah.

If anyone does want those things, I suggest that they head to the spa, therapy session, vegan cooking class, Yoga retreat, Latte Liberal political gathering, episode of Oprah at Upaya advertised in Tricycle.

Sorry for running long.

Gassho, J

STLah

PS - I just watched this documentary about Tony Robbins. What a spiritual showman, conman and manipulator, in my view. However, he is a master of raking in the bucks in the spiritual market place, for sure. One could take the "feel good" and "motivational" words he shoots out and do a very good imitation (I'll make a couple up right now: "Be you and give this you as a gift to the world!" or "This moment is the moment, use your power to uplift this moment!" What does it mean? Not sure, but sure sounds inspiring! )

[Bion]

Thank you, Jundo!


SatToday

[Jakuden]

Thank you Jundo. When I bring up something in Dokusan that is difficult for me, causing Dukkha, you usually remind me that in our ancestors’ times they surely struggled with so many of the same things, and so many worse! And the solution is not to find some temporary fix, some impermanent delusion to grasp onto to celebrate instead, but to sit—and sit beyond ALL of it, in the place of true peace.

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


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[Risho]

Thank you Jundo

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

[Jundo]

Jakuden, you said in one sentence more than I said in paragraphs ...

... the solution is not to find some temporary fix, some impermanent delusion to grasp onto to celebrate instead, but to sit—and sit beyond ALL of it, in the place of true peace.

[Shoki]

Jundo,
Exactly. Thank you.

STlah
Shoki

[Seikan]

Thank you Jundo.

Gassho,
Rob

-stlah-


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[Inshin]

Thank you Jakuden.

and sit beyond ALL of it, in the place of true peace.

. Just like this tree from around the time of Dogen.
FB_IMG_1604855987285.jpg

Gassho
Sat

[Meitou]

I'm rather confused as to why you are quoting my post here in this attack on people who...

" come to a Zen group expecting some combination of spa, therapy session, vegan cooking class, Yoga retreat, Latte Liberal political gathering, episode of Oprah.

Many Buddhist Sangha, realizing that people will pay well for such things, give their well-healed (meaning almost anyone in a 1st world country compared to sub-Saharan Africa) patrons of the "Middle-Upper-Middle Way" just what the spiritual consumer market demands. The major magazines do the same, with worthwhile essays interspersed with cheap self-help advice, relaxation techniques and psycho-babble."

It almost feels as if this is a personal attack on me, especially as I specifically said I didn't want to take the discussion on the Art thread further, as if you think this is what I am or how I represent myself or what I expect here. I'm so shocked and upset that I can't even think of anything to say to defend myself.

Gassho
Meitou
sattoday

[vanbui]

Well said. I believe in a Zen Sangha it's important not to get bogged down with the triviality of life. I know some people might not agree with this statement. However, I feel life is always colourful and we all have our preferences, but in Zazen we will realise that it is just a mirage and we should drop all of that away.

Gassho
Van
Satlah

[Koushi]

It may be my southern Baptist upbringing, and seeing how religious groups discussing and participating in politics to a degree can be detrimental, but I always thought it best to leave divisive topics at the door so to speak — when we come together to sit.

That said, there’s always a way to discuss and engage with the world, society, and issues with what we learn here outside of the doors (as many here can tell you, I’m very political everywhere but here). It’s a fine line for sure, but it isn’t on the sangha to endorse particular candidates or the like IMO — indeed, as much as we may disdain (or celebrate!) a particular candidate, at the end of the day they (and their supporters from all walks of life) are subject to the same suffering and conditions we are as a group and we should be mindful of such.

Gassho,
Jesse
ST

[Tairin]

Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Jakuden]

I'm rather confused as to why you are quoting my post here in this attack on people who...

" come to a Zen group expecting some combination of spa, therapy session, vegan cooking class, Yoga retreat, Latte Liberal political gathering, episode of Oprah.

Many Buddhist Sangha, realizing that people will pay well for such things, give their well-healed (meaning almost anyone in a 1st world country compared to sub-Saharan Africa) patrons of the "Middle-Upper-Middle Way" just what the spiritual consumer market demands. The major magazines do the same, with worthwhile essays interspersed with cheap self-help advice, relaxation techniques and psycho-babble."

It almost feels as if this is a personal attack on me, especially as I specifically said I didn't want to take the discussion on the Art thread further, as if you think this is what I am or how I represent myself or what I expect here. I'm so shocked and upset that I can't even think of anything to say to defend myself.

Gassho
Meitou
sattoday

Of course it isn't an attack on you personally, Meitou. And your views are important, along with many others here who have voiced their questions and concerns about the "no politics" guideline of Treeleaf. Anybody here for awhile will hear a similar refrain from Jundo from time to time, (maybe the Oprah analogy is getting kind of outdated) but it's really just a teacher wagging a finger in caution for folks not to take a stand for something that "feels good or bad" to them rather than the primary lesson that we need to learn if we want to be free of suffering, which is for us to rise above all the temporary things. In this case that includes politics, both the "feel good" of a leader that some of us may judge as having a "right view" versus one we may feel doesn't. Unfortunately, you have ended up being just the pawn in someone else's game of Let's Challenge The Teacher, and I think you and Anne are now dying on the hill of the post of this someone who doesn't even really care about any of us or anything here except their own amusement and mischief. IMHO, there is not long-term freedom or happiness to be found on that hill, just the continuation of Samsara. You and Anne both have brought us wonderful teachings, which will remain a joy and a benefit to the forum, and hopefully you will still peacefully sit with us beyond ALL the stuff of our daily life sometimes, and let us be of service to you in the way a Zen Sangha really can be.

So sorry to run long.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

[aprapti]

And the solution is not to find some temporary fix, some impermanent delusion to grasp onto to celebrate instead, but to sit—and sit beyond ALL of it, in the place of true peace.

thank you, Jakuden. I am going to remember this one..



aprapti

std/lah

[Onka]

Of course it isn't an attack on you personally, Meitou. And your views are important, along with many others here who have voiced their questions and concerns about the "no politics" guideline of Treeleaf. Anybody here for awhile will hear a similar refrain from Jundo from time to time, (maybe the Oprah analogy is getting kind of outdated) but it's really just a teacher wagging a finger in caution for folks not to take a stand for something that "feels good or bad" to them rather than the primary lesson that we need to learn if we want to be free of suffering, which is for us to rise above all the temporary things. In this case that includes politics, both the "feel good" of a leader that some of us may judge as having a "right view" versus one we may feel doesn't. Unfortunately, you have ended up being just the pawn in someone else's game of Let's Challenge The Teacher, and I think you and Anne are now dying on the hill of the post of this someone who doesn't even really care about any of us or anything here except their own amusement and mischief. IMHO, there is not long-term freedom or happiness to be found on that hill, just the continuation of Samsara. You and Anne both have brought us wonderful teachings, which will remain a joy and a benefit to the forum, and hopefully you will still peacefully sit with us beyond ALL the stuff of our daily life sometimes, and let us be of service to you in the way a Zen Sangha really can be.

So sorry to run long.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

Who's challenging the teacher Jakuden? I thought I was the problem child of the Sangha.
Gassho
Onka
st

[Jundo]

That said, there’s always a way to discuss and engage with the world, society, and issues with what we learn here outside of the doors (as many here can tell you, I’m very political everywhere but here).

That is very good and very much encouraged for those who feel drawn so in their hearts, and can even be an aspect of one's Zen Practice as much as sitting Zazen, walking Kinhin and eating Oryoki.

... but it isn’t on the sangha to endorse particular candidates or the like IMO — indeed, as much as we may disdain (or celebrate!) a particular candidate, at the end of the day they (and their supporters from all walks of life) are subject to the same suffering and conditions we are as a group and we should be mindful of such.

Yes, precisely:

We leave it to members to follow their own hearts as to what they consider in keeping with their Vows to Rescue the Sentient Beings, Precepts, Wisdom, Compassion and loving kindness.

The only kinds of political and social beliefs that cannot be an aspect of Zen Practice are those based on poisons such as greed, anger and violence, fervent militarism and nationalism (of the NAZI kind), divisive thinking such as jealousy, bigotry, racism and the like.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Kyōsen]

Gassho
Kyōsen
Sat|LAH

[Kevin M]

Kevin
#ST #LaH


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[Tosei]

Gassho.

Peter
st

[Jundo]

I'm rather confused as to why you are quoting my post here in this attack on people who...

" come to a Zen group expecting some combination of spa, therapy session, vegan cooking class, Yoga retreat, Latte Liberal political gathering, episode of Oprah.

Many Buddhist Sangha, realizing that people will pay well for such things, give their well-healed (meaning almost anyone in a 1st world country compared to sub-Saharan Africa) patrons of the "Middle-Upper-Middle Way" just what the spiritual consumer market demands. The major magazines do the same, with worthwhile essays interspersed with cheap self-help advice, relaxation techniques and psycho-babble."

It almost feels as if this is a personal attack on me, especially as I specifically said I didn't want to take the discussion on the Art thread further, as if you think this is what I am or how I represent myself or what I expect here. I'm so shocked and upset that I can't even think of anything to say to defend myself.

Gassho
Meitou
sattoday

Yes, you are right, Meitou. I deleted most of your quotes from the essay because, while some of the comments made inspired the essay, they are not really necessary or central to it at all.

I hope that what I wrote can help you understand a bit why I am so strict on these points. You are most treasured around here, you know.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLah

[Jinyo]

I'm rather confused as to why you are quoting my post here in this attack on people who...

" come to a Zen group expecting some combination of spa, therapy session, vegan cooking class, Yoga retreat, Latte Liberal political gathering, episode of Oprah.

Many Buddhist Sangha, realizing that people will pay well for such things, give their well-healed (meaning almost anyone in a 1st world country compared to sub-Saharan Africa) patrons of the "Middle-Upper-Middle Way" just what the spiritual consumer market demands. The major magazines do the same, with worthwhile essays interspersed with cheap self-help advice, relaxation techniques and psycho-babble."

It almost feels as if this is a personal attack on me, especially as I specifically said I didn't want to take the discussion on the Art thread further, as if you think this is what I am or how I represent myself or what I expect here. I'm so shocked and upset that I can't even think of anything to say to defend myself.

Gassho
Meitou
sattoday

I don't see this as a personal attack on you Meitou.

In the original art thread I suggested there were two possibly connected but also distinct areas of thought/questioning. The one I felt needed to be addressed, distinct from the context of the art forum is (I think) what Jundo is addressing here and was worth addressing because you posed a very important question.

...what happened to all life being our temple?

and the equally important concern of how we answer the existential questions that are brought by others (and within ourselves) concerning life and all its anxieties and challenges.

This seemed to me wider than the question about what is permissible on a Tree Leaf art forum and required clarification elsewhere.

Anyway, gratitude for bringing the question.


Gassho

Jinyo


sat today

[Gokai]

Thank you very much. Makes sense.
Gassho, Gokai.
Sat today

[Onkai]

Thank you, Jundo. I understand why partisan politics need to be kept out of the zendo. One of my most important practices is to hold the opponent of the candidate I support in loving kindness, and a politically neutral place helps maintain a heart without hatred and a mind open to reality.

Gassho,
Onkai
Sat/lah

[SNPII]

I appreciate your take on this topic.

Gassho
Sat With Upaya in Retreat today

[Jeff Naylor]

Thank you, Jundo. I understand why partisan politics need to be kept out of the zendo. One of my most important practices is to hold the opponent of the candidate I support in loving kindness, and a politically neutral place helps maintain a heart without hatred and a mind open to reality.

Gassho,
Onkai
Sat/lah

Thanks for this Onkai. That's a great practice!

Gassho
Jeff
Sat/lah