The precept I need the most help with is Right Speech

[Chet]

Hey all,

Man, I can't believe how easily I can be pulled away from my commitment to Right Speech. Obviously, having a personality disorder that includes emotional dysregulation, a tendency toward extreme positions, and "black/white" thinking (<—the ultimate dualistic thinking), and just a generally underdeveloped control system makes this precept incredibly difficult for me.

I need help. Obviously, zazen every day DOES help, but I want to insert micro-sits too, so I can remember to let go, as well as install some sort of system for regularly checking my emotional state.

The difficulty is always that it's SO hard to stay conscious when experiencing 9/10 distress. It doesn't matter that it's not logical, because my whole body takes over at 9/10, and I'm wondering if this specifically needs to be the precept I focus on with most of my intention now.

I doubt there are other Borderlines here, but I'm sure there are some folks who are more emotionally expressive (in sometimes troublesome ways) than others.

Sorry so many sentences, but this is a difficult thing to express any more succinctly.

Chet
Sat

[Kokuu]

Hi Chet

I have the utmost respect for what you are dealing with. I do not have the same experience myself but have a daughter who is neuro-atypical and observe that when she is in a state of distress it is pretty much impossible for her to not go into a reactive state in which responding rationally is not going to happen. She also has a tendency to fall into black/white thinking. Both myself and her mother have worked with her to just disengage during those times and take time for herself away from the situation as, just as you observe, Right Speech is almost certainly not going to happen in that moment.

So, my advice, such as it is, is twofold:

1. Be gentle with yourself as you are dealing with a much harder situation than those of us who are neurotypical and it is hard enough for us to observe Right Speech when we are in the grip of emotions.

2. If the Zazen and micro-Zazen helps you become aware, can you similarly to my daughter, make excuses and leave the situation?

Have you talked about this with a mental health provider as I imagine there must be strategies for dealing with this tendency in personality disorders?

I am wondering if part of your precept might lie in explaining why you might not say 'the right things' in certain situations to people you are in regular contact with (friends, family, co-workers) and also letting them know if there is anything they can do to help during difficult conversations?

Those are just ideas from someone who has limited experience. I really appreciate you sharing this with us, Chet, and imagine there are many in the sangha who will have a better understanding of this than I do.

Deep bows for your practice
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Bion]

Hey all,

Man, I can't believe how easily I can be pulled away from my commitment to Right Speech. Obviously, having a personality disorder that includes emotional dysregulation, a tendency toward extreme positions, and "black/white" thinking (<—the ultimate dualistic thinking), and just a generally underdeveloped control system makes this precept incredibly difficult for me.

I need help. Obviously, zazen every day DOES help, but I want to insert micro-sits too, so I can remember to let go, as well as install some sort of system for regularly checking my emotional state.

The difficulty is always that it's SO hard to stay conscious when experiencing 9/10 distress. It doesn't matter that it's not logical, because my whole body takes over at 9/10, and I'm wondering if this specifically needs to be the precept I focus on with most of my intention now.

I doubt there are other Borderlines here, but I'm sure there are some folks who are more emotionally expressive (in sometimes troublesome ways) than others.

Sorry so many sentences, but this is a difficult thing to express any more succinctly.

Chet
Sat

Chet, don’t be too harsh on yourself and remember that not everything is under our control and that is fine. Figure out objectively what situations trigger you and maybe remove yourself from them while trying to find patterns in your behavior and learning about your emotional responses.
The fact that you’re not only aware of your weaknesses, but also worried about them, is already a great step forward.
When everything else fails, my friend, just keep doing your best, because hat is enough.

SatToday lah

[Onka]

Hey Chet
Are you trying?
Are you committed to trying?
If the answer to the above questions is yes then you're going ok.
Gassho
Onka
ST

[Jishin]

Hey all,

Man, I can't believe how easily I can be pulled away from my commitment to Right Speech. Obviously, having a personality disorder that includes emotional dysregulation, a tendency toward extreme positions, and "black/white" thinking (<—the ultimate dualistic thinking), and just a generally underdeveloped control system makes this precept incredibly difficult for me.

I need help. Obviously, zazen every day DOES help, but I want to insert micro-sits too, so I can remember to let go, as well as install some sort of system for regularly checking my emotional state.

The difficulty is always that it's SO hard to stay conscious when experiencing 9/10 distress. It doesn't matter that it's not logical, because my whole body takes over at 9/10, and I'm wondering if this specifically needs to be the precept I focus on with most of my intention now.

I doubt there are other Borderlines here, but I'm sure there are some folks who are more emotionally expressive (in sometimes troublesome ways) than others.

Sorry so many sentences, but this is a difficult thing to express any more succinctly.

Chet
Sat

Don't speak.

Gassho, Jishin, ST

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk

[Jakuden]

Hey Chet
Are you trying?
Are you committed to trying?
If the answer to the above questions is yes then you're going ok.
Gassho
Onka
ST

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Jundo]

Don't speak.

Gassho, Jishin, ST

And yet you had to say it?!

Chet, sometimes we have to speak, try to communicate, deal with situations or people we find irritating. We cannot always be silent like Jishin recommends. So, here is my too simple advice, which is more something my own grandmother would say as much as what the Buddha would say (actually, she was Buddha come to life, my grandmother; I hope you had a nice granny too):

Namely, always act out, pretend, that you are speaking to your dear (although sometimes hard of hearing, or old fashioned in social views, or a bit foggy or stubborn some days) beloved grandma as her grandchild ... or, the other way, step into her corrective shoes and support hose , with what Dogen called "a Grandmotherly Heart," and act the role of a grandmother talking to her little grandchild ... no matter whom you are speaking to.

(Sorry, my comment ran a bit long)

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jishin]

Hi Chet,

Based upon my understanding of your situation, once you engage it is difficult to control the outcome so my advice is simply not to engage until you are better able to control the outcome. This is through no fault of your own. It just is. You are well versed in your condition and have been taught the tools to control your behavior. Do you still go to therapy?

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk

[Eikyo]

Hi Chet,

You are not the only person with BPD here (hiya), I think it's far more common than we'd think but very stigmatised so few speak out.

One thing I found extremely helpful was DBT (Dialectical Behaviour Therapy). So much of the distress with BPD is because we were not equipped with the necessary coping skills and skillful means, so some of the ways which we deal with distress may be extreme but helped us survive through very difficult situations. With support (therapy) it is possible to find a better way of handling distress/ interpersonal conflict/extreme emotions etc. It takes time, but it makes a tremendous difference.

DBT is also very compatible with Zen - in fact Marsha Lyneham who created DBT based it upon zen principles and is a zen master, amongst her own personal experience of living with BPD.

It is a long road for sure (someone once described it to me as playing the game of life on hard level, whereas perhaps the default for others is medium / easy) but it really is one of the conditions that tends to improve with the right support, treatment (DBT / schema therapy) and good old time. There is hope.

I have a PDF DBT manual from therapy which I am happy to share - feel free to drop me a PM with your email address if you want it.

Sorry for the extra sentences, and thanks for your openness Chet in talking about your experiences.

Gassho,
Dee
Sat Today

[Kokuu]

thanks for your openness Chet in talking about your experiences.

Many thanks to you also, Dee. It is so helpful when members with similar experiences share here from their own basis of practice.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Soka]

emotional dysregulation, a tendency toward extreme positions, and "black/white" thinking

Not BPD, but one of the reasons that I have stuck with zazen is because it helps me with exactly those issues. I'm the logical, problem-solver in my family, and have a tendency to say what I see. Unfortunately, I seem to be missing the part of the brain that finds a way to phrase it in a fluffy way. So what I consider a plain, neutral fact, other people can find insulting, meaning real-time communication can blow up in my face somewhat unexpectly.

Silence is one way to solve the problem, but not effective at solving interpersonal issues. If I think the situation is going to be difficult for me to handle in person, then I try to pre-empt it and if possible communciate via instant messenger or email, where I can step away and think (and sit) before sending a reply. (Or sometimes not send the reply!)

The main problem with communicating with text is that people can still misinterpret what is written, especially if they don't know me, so it can be quite time consuming. I spent an hour crafting a private message recently, just to try and make sure that it said what I meant, and didn't come across as aggressive or with any loaded statements. Similar to Kokuu's suggestion about explaining why you might not say 'the right things,' sometimes just stating something along the lines of "What I'm saying isn't meant to be rude/insulting/aggressive/offensive, but if I am coming across that way, please explain what it is that I've said wrong," can make a lot of difference in how people percieve your intent, or at least I think it does. It's hard to do A/B testing on this sort of thing

I don't know if that helps at all,

Gassho,
Phill
sat

[Chet]

Hi Chet,

You are not the only person with BPD here (hiya), I think it's far more common than we'd think but very stigmatised so few speak out.

One thing I found extremely helpful was DBT (Dialectical Behaviour Therapy). So much of the distress with BPD is because we were not equipped with the necessary coping skills and skillful means, so some of the ways which we deal with distress may be extreme but helped us survive through very difficult situations. With support (therapy) it is possible to find a better way of handling distress/ interpersonal conflict/extreme emotions etc. It takes time, but it makes a tremendous difference.

DBT is also very compatible with Zen - in fact Marsha Lyneham who created DBT based it upon zen principles and is a zen master, amongst her own personal experience of living with BPD.

It is a long road for sure (someone once described it to me as playing the game of life on hard level, whereas perhaps the default for others is medium / easy) but it really is one of the conditions that tends to improve with the right support, treatment (DBT / schema therapy) and good old time. There is hope.

I have a PDF DBT manual from therapy which I am happy to share - feel free to drop me a PM with your email address if you want it.

Sorry for the extra sentences, and thanks for your openness Chet in talking about your experiences.

Gassho,
Dee
Sat Today

I have a DBT manual, but haven’t done much with it. Now that I’m freelancing without insurance and not making much money, therapy is out of the question. However, I’m going to start going through the handbook.

Okay to reach out with questions/frustrations?

Chet
SAT/LAH

[Eikyo]

I have a DBT manual, but haven’t done much with it. Now that I’m freelancing without insurance and not making much money, therapy is out of the question. However, I’m going to start going through the handbook.

Okay to reach out with questions/frustrations?

Chet
SAT/LAH

Please feel free to Chet!!
Much metta to you

Dee
ST/LAH

[Jundo]

I need to say, just because I have to say this kind of thing sometimes, that Treeleaf "management" cannot "officially" endorse or recommend any particular kind of treatment or therapy etc.

.... cause we don't know nothing about it ...

... but we sure do hope that everybody finds the help they need, and we fully endorse the idea of people overcoming their personal obstacles and issues.

Gassho, Jundo

STLAh

PS - Maybe you guys could take your discussion of the details to Private Messages and such? Would that be okay?

[Eikyo]

I need to say, just because I have to say this kind of thing sometimes, that Treeleaf "management" cannot "officially" endorse or recommend any particular kind of treatment or therapy etc.

.... cause we don't know nothing about it ...

... but we sure do hope that everybody finds the help they need, and we fully endorse the idea of people overcoming their personal obstacles and issues.

Gassho, Jundo

STLAh

PS - Maybe you guys could take your discussion of the details to Private Messages and such? Would that be okay?

Understood and agree Jundo, therapy is clearly very different from Zen (even Zen inspired therapies like DBT are not Zen - DBT is DBT). Just like medicine to treat any other ailment is also not Zen.
Will take this offline with Chet

Gassho,
Dee

[Tomás ESP]

I find that right speech might be the most difficult part in the eight fold noble path. You are not alone on this one, much metta to you.

Gassho, Tomás

Sat&LaH

[Shoki]

I find that right speech might be the most difficult part in the eight fold noble path. You are not alone on this one, much metta to you.

Gassho, Tomás

Sat&LaH

Same for me too. The mouth is the most dangerous part of the body.

Gassho
ST-lah
Shoki