Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 60

Thread: Proposed Change To The Treeleaf Eko Dedication

  1. #1

    Proposed Change To The Treeleaf Eko Dedication

    JUNDO NOTE: If just joining this discussion, please see latest post here: https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...l=1#post276080

    Hi all,

    The discussion about the Fifth Precept, on not misusing sexuality, has brought up the issue of gender in our liturgy.

    Jundo says:
    As to the subject of our "male and female honored ones," it was quite revolutionary just 10 years ago when the "Women Ancestors" research and Lineage was created in Zen circles for the first time, and we added that. Maybe it is time to expand more in our recognition? Shall we move to something like " ... and to male and female honored ones, all-gendered honored ones, whose names have been forgotten and left unsaid?" Or, to be even more inclusive ... "male and female honored one, all-natured honored ones ... "?

    I know we have members who identify in many lovely flavors, so please advise.


    How do people feel, especially those of you who are not of traditionally male/female gender, about the wording of the dedication? Does "all-natured" seem appropriate, would "honored ones of all genders" or just "all honored ones" be better today? Does anyone have other suggestions?

    Thanks in advance for your input, everyone .Anyone who doesn’t wish to post publicly feel free to PM Kokuu or myself.

    Gassho,
    Jakuden
    SatToday/LAH
    Last edited by Jundo; 11-18-2020 at 11:06 PM.
    清 道 寂田
    SEIDO JAKUDEN
    I am a novice priest. Any resemblance my posts may have to actual teachings about the Dharma, living or dead, is purely coincidental (and just my attempt to be helpful).

  2. #2
    I think that all honored ones is a good option. It is all inclusive, without stepping on the toes of anyone that may feel differently.

    Your milage may vary though. Just my 2 cents. If I am out of line, please let me know so I can improve my understanding.

    Sat today
    Adam


    Edit: I like all-natured as well.

    Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk
    Last edited by ajhayes; 10-28-2020 at 11:21 PM.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by ajhayes View Post
    I think that all honored ones is a good option. It is all inclusive, without stepping on the toes of anyone that may feel differently.

    Your milage may vary though. Just my 2 cents. If I am out of line, please let me know so I can improve my understanding.

    Sat today
    Adam


    Edit: I like all-natured as well.

    Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk
    Hi Adam,

    I'm curious what you mean about stepping on the toes of others who feel differently?

    How could acknowledging other genders step on anyones toes? Genuine question.

    Gassho,
    Dee
    Sat Today

    Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by sweetde View Post
    Hi Adam,

    I'm curious what you mean about stepping on the toes of others who feel differently?

    How could acknowledging other genders step on anyones toes? Genuine question.

    Gassho,
    Dee
    Sat Today

    Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
    There are people that I've encountered that feel very strongly that there are only two genders. While I have no problem calling them out in my real life, I think that it is not the place of a buddhist ceremony to make people upset. Thats what I'm getting at.

    Sat today,
    Adam

    Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by ajhayes View Post
    There are people that I've encountered that feel very strongly that there are only two genders. While I have no problem calling them out in my real life, I think that it is not the place of a buddhist ceremony to make people upset. Thats what I'm getting at.

    Sat today,
    Adam

    Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk
    We are not worried about upsetting those who are overly attached to the status quo. If that were the case, Treeleaf wouldn't exist in the first place The idea is to reach out to those who are not defined by the current wording, the way we have done here for women, the disabled, etc. and make sure they are not inadvertently excluded.

    Gassho,
    Jakuden
    SatToday/LAH
    清 道 寂田
    SEIDO JAKUDEN
    I am a novice priest. Any resemblance my posts may have to actual teachings about the Dharma, living or dead, is purely coincidental (and just my attempt to be helpful).

  6. #6
    Be it noted that I am probably "all of the above" and feel that "all honored ones" works for me. Long tortured sentences in efforts to be inclusive leave me feeling a bit singled out (whether intended or otherwise). I'm pleased to find myself among all here who concentrate so wholeheartedly on bodhisattva action just as it arises. _()_

    gassho
    shonin sat and some lah today
    I'm a visiting unsui from Bird Haven Zendo. Take what I say with a box of salt. Mmm!

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Jakuden View Post
    We are not worried about upsetting those who are overly attached to the status quo. If that were the case, Treeleaf wouldn't exist in the first place The idea is to reach out to those who are not defined by the current wording, the way we have done here for women, the disabled, etc. and make sure they are not inadvertently excluded.

    Gassho,
    Jakuden
    SatToday/LAH
    Makes perfect sense. I'm glad this is the approach.

    Sat today,
    Adam

    Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

  8. #8
    Funny, the addition of "male and female honored ones" was added to expand inclusivity, which it did, but now it may be time to drop it for inclusiveness' sake. Kind of the way we are struggling to drop descriptions of people with ethnic and racial adjectives now.

    Gassho
    Jakuden
    SatToday/LAH
    清 道 寂田
    SEIDO JAKUDEN
    I am a novice priest. Any resemblance my posts may have to actual teachings about the Dharma, living or dead, is purely coincidental (and just my attempt to be helpful).

  9. #9
    All honored ones seems good, it's all inclusive and it gets to the point without being wordy.

    EDIT: Not LGBTQ+ (unless being somewhere on the asexual spectrum counts)


    Evan,
    Sat today, lah
    Last edited by gaurdianaq; 10-29-2020 at 08:28 PM.
    Just going through life one day at a time!

  10. #10
    Also, if anyone has an opinion but does not want to post it on this thread, please message Kokuu or myself directly. We will absolutely not reveal your identity to anyone else, but we are still interested in what you have to say! We realize that not everyone may want to discuss this on the open forum.

    Gassho,
    Jakuden
    SatToday/LAH
    清 道 寂田
    SEIDO JAKUDEN
    I am a novice priest. Any resemblance my posts may have to actual teachings about the Dharma, living or dead, is purely coincidental (and just my attempt to be helpful).

  11. #11
    May I ask for clarification in people's opinions, just so we can all develop a clear understanding of everyone's feelings?

    If there were a switch just to "all honored ones," would that mean just to drop the mention of "male and female" (in bold) and keep the rest? The actual line in our Ceremony dedications is now ...

    ... we dedicate our sincere efforts to:
    •Shakyamuni Buddha Honored One; the Historical Buddha and Teacher …
    and to those ancestral teachers:
    Eihei Dogen Honored One
    Soji Keizan Honored One,
    All successive Honored Ones up until
    Zuigaku Rempo Honored One and
    Gudo Wafu Honored One
    and to all other Honored Ones throughout history, Male and Female Honored Ones, whose names have been forgotten or left unsaid.
    Also, should we keep our special Recitations of the Women Ancestors and the Recitation of the Differently Abled Ancestors during our Rohatsu Retreat, also drop them, or add to them in some way? You can see Kokuu recite for the Differently Abled Ancestors here, and there is a like Ceremony for "Women Ancestors" at a different time ...

    Explanation of the Differently-Abled Ancestors Ceremony here:

    https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...l=1#post234744

    Finally, we present at Jukai this special Lineage Chart for the Women and Differently Abled Ancestors. Do we need to stop, or change the wording, add to it in some way?


    All guidance is welcome!!!!

    Gassho, J

    STlah
    Last edited by Jundo; 10-29-2020 at 02:58 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  12. #12
    Disclaimer: I consider myself to be part of the LGBTQ+ community.

    I like "all honored ones" because of its simple universal inclusion. It includes those within, straddling, and outside of the gender binary, it doesn't rely on clunky terminology or awkward phrasing, it's pretty innocuous really. Some of us may go through periods in our lives where we question and examine our gender identity and during that process we may go from idea to idea, trying things out and seeing how they sit. "All honored ones" captures all of that in a simple, elegant way, so no matter where someone is in their journey they can feel naturally included.

    Gassho
    Kyōsen
    Sat|LAH
    Last edited by Kyōsen; 10-29-2020 at 03:51 PM.
    橋川
    kyō (bridge) | sen (river)

  13. #13
    Perhaps, leaving the phrase as "all honored ones" is most inclusive and keeps the focus on "honored" and not on what is meant by "ones". Once you attempt to explain who is included, you invariably risk inadvertently excluding someone.

    Gassho

    Dick
    Sattoday

  14. #14
    I also like, "all honored ones".

    Gassho
    Sat, lah
    求道芸化 Kyudo Geika
    I am just a priest-in-training, please do not take anything I say as a teaching.

  15. #15
    For some reason "male and female ones" was sticking out for me. I think "all honoured ones" is inclusive and flows better.
    As for Rohatsu and Jukai the ceremony mentions particular names so it is good to keep them, maybe without dividing it to categories "female" and "differently abled". I understand the intention behind mentioning the particular disability of the Ancestors, to show inclusivity and that the Path is available to everyone, however I feel that to be fully inclusive we shouldn't focus on that aspect. Maybe I have a wrong view, but if I was disabled I wouldn't want others to praise me for my "achievements" despite the disabilities, as if it was something special. I know it may be motivational if disabled people achieve more than the able ones, but for me it's a hidden pity :"look - if a disabled person managed to succeed then you're just lazy and lacking motivation".
    Please correct me if I see this wrongly.
    Gassho
    Sat

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Jakuden View Post
    We are not worried about upsetting those who are overly attached to the status quo. If that were the case, Treeleaf wouldn't exist in the first place The idea is to reach out to those who are not defined by the current wording, the way we have done here for women, the disabled, etc. and make sure they are not inadvertently excluded.

    Gassho,
    Jakuden
    SatToday/LAH
    Editing to add: thanks to a friend who kindly pointed out how my wording below could be misinterpreted. I do not mean to discourage participation by anyone at all. My intent behind posting the below is that we should not be catering to the needs of transphobes or people who disbelieve in the existence of other genders (my existence is not up for debate). I should have been more specific in my feedback so as to avoid misunderstanding. My original wording is below, I hope it makes sense in this context.

    ---------

    I am so so glad that you said this Jakuden.
    I was worried this thread could become very problematic if we start asking people from non-marginalised gender identities what they think of us and how we can make them comfortable!

    Grateful that you and the others are taking this approach - thank you

    Gassho,
    Dee
    ST

    Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
    Last edited by sweetde; 10-29-2020 at 09:36 PM.

  17. #17
    "All honoured ones" works well for me and I feel it is inclusive (though can you spell it honoured not honored to be inclusive of those of us in the UK ? J/K)

    I think it would be a shame to lose the ceremony and lineage chart for differently abled ancestors- I think this is a really beautiful recognition of a group of people who historically have not been celebrated, and who continue to struggle with recognition and fair treatment in society. I would defer to those who are differently abled in terms of what makes them feel best (not sure whether to count myself in that group - 20+ years of mental health issues including being sectioned/hospitalised).
    This is a very compassionate practice in the Treeleaf lineage and I can't think of any reason to remove it.

    In terms of the women ancestors, that is a tricky one! It is interesting in some cases how removing separation can be inclusive (e.g. "all honoured ones") while in others, like the lineage chart, removing the recognition of their difference feels like erasure.
    I would suggest we keep this too, but maintain an open mind about it and continue to add to this. For example, it could become a list of ancestors from marginalised genders (which includes women, trans and nonbinary/genderqueer folks). Then of course it raises the question of - what about our LGBTQ+ ancestors, ancestors from different ethnic backgrounds (Black / Indigenous etc etc!). The list could go on - and some people may fall into different categories at the same time (very intersectional).

    Those are my thoughts - apologies for running long, and for not giving a straight answer

    Gassho,
    Dee
    Sat Today

    Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

  18. #18
    Hi Guys,

    Just running by an idea. I thought of keeping out "Women & Differently Abled" Ancestors Lineage documents and ceremony, and perhaps ADDING something like this to represent all other folks who may have struggled to be included in Sangha in the past (it is just a model I whipped up, click to enlarge) ...


    This document would also be presented to everyone undertaking Jukai now and in the future, together with the traditional Lineage and the "Women & Differently Abled" Lineage papers.

    We might change the wording, e.g., instead of "For our Treeleaf Ancestors of All Natures ... " to "For All Treeleaf Ancestors ... " unless folks like the "All Natures" wording etc.

    Furthermore, we can keep the Ceremony for Women Ancestors, and the Ceremony for Differently Abled Ancestors, and just ADD a small ceremony or moment to our Rohatsu Retreat to remember and commemorate the folks of other natures who struggled to gain access to Sangha through the centuries.

    Would that be good?

    Also, one request, would folks offering comments here but -- DO NOT -- consider themselves part of the LGBTQ community note so because, while we value everyone's opinions, we particularly want to hear from our LGBTQ members (and perhaps any other group that has suffered exclusions in the past) about what they may feel is best. Thank you. If you are not LGBTQ, would you indicate briefly so that we might know where you are coming from? I hope that is okay to ask. Also, folks should feel free to PM privately to Jakuden or Kokuu with their opinion.

    (Sorry, ran long)

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 10-30-2020 at 01:02 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  19. #19
    I have always found the Differently Abled section inspiring, for the same reason that I find stories of those with disabilities inspiring, and talking with Treeleafers with disabilities and chronic illness inspiring. As someone living with disabilities, this reminds me of what is possible, even as society likes to talk and pretend like we're defective or don't exist at all. It reminds me that I am part of a long lineage of ancestors who accomplished great things, and to keep my standards high in service to others, which is important to me, as a matter of integrity and honor.

    Short version -- the Differently Abled lineage reminds me not to let society dictate my identity or ability, but to focus on what I can do in service to all sentient beings, regardless of my physical skills at any given time.

    ***Edit --I now understand the rationale behind changing it completely to "all" rather than separating into groups. Possibly controversial question -- could we still keep those lineages available for those of us who find the information inspiring (those of us who are part of marginalized populations)?

    Gassho, meian st lh

    Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Meian; 10-30-2020 at 01:57 AM. Reason: edited to more accurately answer Jundo's requests
    迷安 - Mei An - Wandering At Rest

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Hi Guys,

    Just running by an idea. I thought of keeping out "Women & Differently Abled" Ancestors Lineage documents and ceremony, and perhaps ADDING something like this to represent all other folks who may have struggled to be included in Sangha in the past (it is just a model I whipped up, click to enlarge) ...


    This document would also be presented to everyone undertaking Jukai now and in the future, together with the traditional Lineage and the "Women & Differently Abled" Lineage papers.

    We might change the wording, e.g., instead of "For our Treeleaf Ancestors of All Natures ... " to "For All Treeleaf Ancestors ... " unless folks like the "All Natures" wording etc.

    Furthermore, we can keep the Ceremony for Women Ancestors, and the Ceremony for Differently Abled Ancestors, and just ADD a small ceremony or moment to our Rohatsu Retreat to remember and commemorate the folks of other natures who struggled to gain access to Sangha through the centuries.

    Would that be good?

    Also, one request, would folks offering comments here denote if they consider themselves part of the LGBTQ community because, while we value everyone's opinions, we particularly want to hear from our LGBTQ members (and perhaps any other group that has suffered exclusions in the past) about what they may feel is best. Thank you. If you are not LGBTQ, would you indicate briefly so that we might know where you are coming from? I hope that is okay to ask.

    (Sorry, ran long)

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Hi Jundo,

    Firstly I want to thank you and the rest of the Priests / Unsui for working so proactively make sure that our processes are inclusive. I never imagined when I made my comments in the precepts study forum that anyone would actually take any notice So honestly thank you because in the rest of the world I normally feel like I am shouting into the wind!

    I like your suggestion of keeping the existing lineage documents and adding another one to represent those who have struggled to be included in the past. The wording "of all natures" is pretty but I don't think it quite hits the mark - I think "of all natures" is fine if we are truly talking about everyone, but if we are talking about people from marginalised communities then I think they need to be named as such. So perhaps "Ancestors from marginalised communities" would work well as an umbrella term which captures all other types of difference which have been oppressed.

    I am part of the LGBTQ community (queer and nonbinary), I am Mexican-American, English is my second language, raised by a single mother, working class, non-university educated, immigrant to the UK, with a history of trauma and serious mental health diagnoses, etc! That is probably enough intersectionalities for now

    Sorry for running well over 3 sentences!

    Gassho,
    Dee
    Sat

    Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

  21. #21
    I think the more we start to categorize and label and separate things to try to acknowledge them, the more division and cause for complaint we create as it’ll be impossible to start naming everyone and everything. A simple phrase, like that used, for example, in the Soto Scriptures for Daily Practice seems to be all inclusive: “to the successive generations of buddhas and ancestors who transmitted the flame”.
    I am, however, fine with whatever wording is chosen, as I don’t think the dedication of merit is meant to cater to my ego, but to simply acknowledge those who came before us, regardless of the “container” they came in.

    SatToday
    Jake

    -------------------------
    Join me on Insight Timer
    Help me feed those in need by joining my Share The Meal team HERE

  22. #22
    When a person or a population does not fit into mainstream or dominant society, then we are easily marginalized, pushed aside, silenced, ignored -- we end up not having a voice at all. That is persecution, oppression, silencing -- all of which can kill people from the inside out. It is psychological and emotional trauma and abuse.

    Acknowledgement and recognition is a powerful thing -- it brings all things out into the light and allows for healing and growth. These lineages and being recognized as existing and having contributed to Buddhist history and teachings is powerful and noteworthy.

    That is what this process does -- it's important, it's vital, and that's why what Treeleaf has done and is doing now (continually evolving, growing, recognizing -- pushing the boundaries of equality and inclusion) is so necessary in our modern world that still likes to ignore the vulnerable and the different.

    Just how I see it, of course.

    gassho, meian st lhc
    迷安 - Mei An - Wandering At Rest

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Meian View Post
    When a person or a population does not fit into mainstream or dominant society, then we are easily marginalized, pushed aside, silenced, ignored -- we end up not having a voice at all. That is persecution, oppression, silencing -- all of which can kill people from the inside out. It is psychological and emotional trauma and abuse.

    Acknowledgement and recognition is a powerful thing -- it brings all things out into the light and allows for healing and growth. These lineages and being recognized as existing and having contributed to Buddhist history and teachings is powerful and noteworthy.

    That is what this process does -- it's important, it's vital, and that's why what Treeleaf has done and is doing now (continually evolving, growing, recognizing -- pushing the boundaries of equality and inclusion) is so necessary in our modern world that still likes to ignore the vulnerable and the different.

    Just how I see it, of course.

    gassho, meian st lhc
    100% this Meian.

    Gassho,
    Dee
    ST

    Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by jakeb View Post
    I think the more we start to categorize and label and separate things to try to acknowledge them, the more division and cause for complaint we create as it’ll be impossible to start naming everyone and everything. A simple phrase, like that used, for example, in the Soto Scriptures for Daily Practice seems to be all inclusive: “to the successive generations of buddhas and ancestors who transmitted the flame”.
    I am, however, fine with whatever wording is chosen, as I don’t think the dedication of merit is meant to cater to my ego, but to simply acknowledge those who came before us, regardless of the “container” they came in.

    SatToday
    Hi Jake you may not intend it to be so but what you have said could be felt to be dismissive of those who are part of the LGBTQ community and continue to struggle for recognition/equal rights etc.... Form is emptiness and emptiness is form, yet form exists. In an ideal world we wouldn't need to separate people into categories, but in a world where people are treated unequally, then we must acknowledge and work to change it - ignoring it doesn't make the struggles go away.

    I would also please second Jundo's request for people to state if they are part of the LGBTQ community, so that we can tell if the proposed wording is meeting the needs of this community?

    Gassho,
    Dee
    Sat

    Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by sweetde View Post
    Hi Jake you may not intend it to be so but what you have said could be felt to be dismissive of those who are part of the LGBTQ community and continue to struggle for recognition/equal rights etc.... Form is emptiness and emptiness is form, yet form exists. In an ideal world we wouldn't need to separate people into categories, but in a world where people are treated unequally, then we must acknowledge and work to change it - ignoring it doesn't make the struggles go away.

    I would also please second Jundo's request for people to state if they are part of the LGBTQ community, so that we can tell if the proposed wording is meeting the needs of this community?

    Gassho,
    Dee
    Sat

    Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
    My reply was meant strictly in the context of the wording of the dedication of merit. It wasn’t meant to be applied to society or anything else. I think that if we say “all ancestors”, it includes ALL of them regardless of their sex, physical traits , age, race, status etc and each of us reciting it can then visualize or think of all the different people that came before us.
    Of course I was not trying to be dismissive of anyone. I think Treeleaf excels at being inclusive.

    SatToday
    Jake

    -------------------------
    Join me on Insight Timer
    Help me feed those in need by joining my Share The Meal team HERE

  26. #26
    "All honored ones" really does cover everybody so I think that works. My first thought was, as Jakeb said, categorizing seems to go a little against the grain of what we are about. With all due respect to Meian's & Dee's responses, which I understand, I don't think Treeleaf could reasonably be accused of being insensitive or non-inclusive on this issue by saying "All honored ones."

    Gassho
    STlah
    Shoki

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Also, one request, would folks offering comments here denote if they consider themselves part of the LGBTQ community because, while we value everyone's opinions, we particularly want to hear from our LGBTQ members (and perhaps any other group that has suffered exclusions in the past) about what they may feel is best. Thank you. If you are not LGBTQ, would you indicate briefly so that we might know where you are coming from? I hope that is okay to ask.
    I've amended my post to indicate that I am LGBTQ+ and I think that's a perfectly fine thing to ask as I'm not at all in hiding about who I am

    Gassho
    Kyōsen
    Sat|LAH
    橋川
    kyō (bridge) | sen (river)

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by jakeb View Post
    My reply was meant strictly in the context of the wording of the dedication of merit. It wasn’t meant to be applied to society or anything else. I think that if we say “all ancestors”, it includes ALL of them regardless of their sex, physical traits , age, race, status etc and each of us reciting it can then visualize or think of all the different people that came before us.
    Of course I was not trying to be dismissive of anyone. I think Treeleaf excels at being inclusive.

    SatToday
    Jake, anyone who has taken the time to read your wise and constructive posts will know where you were coming from; yours was a very fair and balanced comment. It resonates with exactly the same dilemma I had when I suggested we adopted the Women Ancestors lineage chart, how as a feminist to address the lack of recognition of women historically in Buddhism, pitched against how, as a follower of the Dharma, to see beyond ego, division, category, culture and society and remain focused on interdependence at all levels.
    All honored ones seems the fairest and most inclusive way forward but being unable and unwilling to categorize myself, you may discount my opinion.
    Meitou
    Sat
    命 Mei - life
    島 Tou - island

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Meitou View Post
    Jake, anyone who has taken the time to read your wise and constructive posts will know where you were coming from; yours was a very fair and balanced comment. It resonates with exactly the same dilemma I had when I suggested we adopted the Women Ancestors lineage chart, how as a feminist to address the lack of recognition of women historically in Buddhism, pitched against how, as a follower of the Dharma, to see beyond ego, division, category, culture and society and remain focused on interdependence at all levels.
    All honored ones seems the fairest and most inclusive way forward but being unable and unwilling to categorize myself, you may discount my opinion.
    Meitou
    Sat
    All opinions matter!

    SatToday
    Jake

    -------------------------
    Join me on Insight Timer
    Help me feed those in need by joining my Share The Meal team HERE

  30. #30
    As mentioned in the precepts thread, "all honoured ones" works for me.

    Regarding the special Recitations of the Women Ancestors and the Recitation of the Differently Abled Ancestors, I think it is important to keep something along these lines, although what shape that should be perhaps needs to be determined by those groups concerned. I think this in part because there are still so many barriers that exist for many people and having those chants help ensure we recognise those barriers.

    While I'm generally against putting things in boxes, I think here separation remains useful. I could see problems arising from trying to create one "catch all" group. Whilst not the intent, it could be interpreted offensively as a suggestion that being a woman is to be differently abled, or to be differently abled makes someone less of a man, and so on.

    Not part of the LGBTQ+ community, but think it is important that everyone feels they can contribute and be comfortable in being able to voice their opinions here. Open discussion aids understanding.

    Gassho,
    Phill
    sat

  31. #31
    I fit somewhere under the trans* umbrella.
    I think cisgendered women have fought long and hard to be recognised so in my opinion "male and female honoured ones as well as differently abled and those who don't fit the gender binary" works. Yes it is a mouthful but one of the criticisms some feminists and many women rightly have of the trans* community is that they feel that cisgendered women are once again being made invisible by statements saying "all" despite good intentions. It would rightly be akin to going back from "male and female honoured ones" to just "all honoured ones" like before. This is the challenge of trying to cater for folk with single issue "p" word.
    An alternative that perhaps works best is "all honoured ones*" with a footnote saying that this includes cisgendered women, LGBTIQ+ folk and differently abled folk both mentally and physically"
    Sorry for more than 3 sentences.
    Gassho
    Onka
    ST
    aka Anna Kissed
    Pronouns She/Her They/Them

  32. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Phill View Post
    Not part of the LGBTQ+ community, but think it is important that everyone feels they can contribute and be comfortable in being able to voice their opinions here. Open discussion aids understanding.

    Gassho,
    Phill
    sat
    Yes! 100% Phill. I want to add that at no point did I mean for anyone to feel that people who aren't LGBTQ+ can't contribute (not that I have any say over who does what anyways ). However it is very helpful to know, as requested in both the original post by Jakuden and also later by Jundo, whether the wording is meeting the needs of the LGBTQ+ community.

    We spotted that some people were being left out of the current binary gendered Treeleaf chant wording, so the purpose (as I understand it) is to collaborate and see if we can find new wording that meets the needs of all. And that means we need to make sure we are hearing the voices of those who are most affected by this change and haven't been heard in the past. This is why it is helpful if people can say if they are part of the LGBTQ+ community, or just allies. Either way is fine (or if you don't want to disclose is fine) but I don't see how this decision can be made, without involving this group (of which I am a part).

    I'm gonna go lie down now

    Gassho,
    Dee
    Sat Today


    Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

  33. #33
    ok so I understand, we're going with "All honored, balding males.." ok great, sounds good. Keep up the great work. hahahah

    Gassho,

    Risho
    -stlah

  34. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Risho View Post
    ok so I understand, we're going with "All honored, balding males.." ok great, sounds good. Keep up the great work. hahahah

    Gassho,

    Risho
    -stlah

    Thanks for your input Risho lol

    Gassho

    Dee
    Sat

    Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

  35. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Risho View Post
    ok so I understand, we're going with "All honored, balding males.." ok great, sounds good. Keep up the great work. hahahah
    Dammit, I knew I should have posted an avatar photo where I was wearing a hat! And also "honoured" thank you very much,

    Gassho,
    Phill
    sat

  36. #36
    I have had a couple of PM's from folks who would rather not reply on the public forum.... let's remember that yes, it is 2020, but in some countries, people can still get the death penalty for being LGBTQ+! (or even a disobedient female in some cases), it is not by any means a given that every person in that community would want to be out--even though Treeleaf is a mostly pretty friendly place In the U.S., teachers at private schools are still being fired over their gender identity and sexual orientation, families are still disowning LGBTQ+ children, and the list goes on. We should be sensitive to this.

    Gassho,
    Jakuden
    SatToday/LAH
    Last edited by Jakuden; 10-29-2020 at 10:08 PM.
    清 道 寂田
    SEIDO JAKUDEN
    I am a novice priest. Any resemblance my posts may have to actual teachings about the Dharma, living or dead, is purely coincidental (and just my attempt to be helpful).

  37. #37
    That's a good point Jakuden! As I mentioned before, I'm a straight male. Funny - I liked girls since like first grade; I remember flirting with a girl in first grade math class by showing off my "pac man" belt - ah the 80's; simpler times. hahahah But that's not my fault - it's just who I am I guess. There is a plethora of differences among us. Why should I judge you for your preferences? What the hell do I know? Not much - I am who I am.

    People like who they like - there are so many differences; it's a shame that we have to find ways to put ourselves above others - I guess that also relates to another precept of disparaging others that we will get into later. Juki, you are right, they are all one.

    I was frustrated when this whole thing got going about changing our chant. But I wasn't frustrated because I don't think people should be treated equally. I get frustrated when we have to qualify people into categories. For example, I don't think President Obama was a great president because he was black; he was a great president who happened to be black.

    Likewise, I don't think Onka is cool because of her sexual preference. I think she's just a really unique and cool cat.

    I don't think our default characteristics are all that important. At the same time they are; they make us who we are.

    But that is the emptiness side. Maybe we aren't all ready as a society yet because there are so many who are still shat upon due to these things. Maybe it's because of the way we mistreat each other, and have mistreated each other in the past, that we still have to highlight differences so that future generations see that we are all different but we share the same needs of being loved and valued, and that those differences make us stronger.

    Gassho

    Risho
    -stlah

  38. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Jakuden View Post
    I have had a couple of PM's from folks who would rather not reply on the public forum.... let's remember that yes, it is 2020, but in some countries, people can still get the death penalty for being LGBTQ+! (or even a disobedient female in some cases), it is not by any means a given that every person in that community would want to be out--even though Treeleaf is a mostly pretty friendly place In the U.S., teachers at private schools are still being fired over their gender identity and sexual orientation, families are still disowning LGBTQ+ children, and the list goes on. We should be sensitive to this.

    Gassho,
    Jakuden
    SatToday/LAH
    Yes, yes, I hope that was implied by my message.

    Perhaps it would be helpful if folks who are offering an opinion, but do so while --not-- considering themself part of the LGBTQ+ community, would say so. Folks can also contact Jakuden or Kokuu by PM to offer a private opinion.

    Maybe we can make an anonymous poll once we have the choices narrowed down?

    Gassho, Jundo
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  39. #39
    I was frustrated when this whole thing got going about changing our chant. But I wasn't frustrated because I don't think people should be treated equally. I get frustrated when we have to qualify people into categories. For example, I don't think President Obama was a great president because he was black; he was a great president who happened to be black.

    Likewise, I don't think Onka is cool because of her sexual preference. I think she's just a really unique and cool cat.

    I don't think our default characteristics are all that important. At the same time they are; they make us who we are.

    But that is the emptiness side. Maybe we aren't all ready as a society yet because there are so many who are still shat upon due to these things. Maybe it's because of the way we mistreat each other, and have mistreated each other in the past, that we still have to highlight differences so that future generations see that we are all different but we share the same needs of being loved and valued, and that those differences make us stronger.
    Nicely said, Risho. It is frustrating that we still make a big deal over the colour of someone's skin, who they love or what religion they follow. It would be lovely to think of a time when those things just didn't matter but we know how humans are.

    I hope the pacman belt flirting worked!

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    -sattoday-
    ------------------------------------
    Feel free to message me if you wish to talk about issues around practicing with physical limitations. This is something I have been sitting with for a fair while and am happy to help with suggestions or just offer a listening ear.

  40. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Jakuden View Post
    I have had a couple of PM's from folks who would rather not reply on the public forum.... let's remember that yes, it is 2020, but in some countries, people can still get the death penalty for being LGBTQ+! (or even a disobedient female in some cases), it is not by any means a given that every person in that community would want to be out--even though Treeleaf is a mostly pretty friendly place In the U.S., teachers at private schools are still being fired over their gender identity and sexual orientation, families are still disowning LGBTQ+ children, and the list goes on. We should be sensitive to this.

    Gassho,
    Jakuden
    SatToday/LAH
    The fight of LGBTQ+ goes hand in hand with the fight for women's rights and it is a fight for the world where those differences will not matter and we won't need anymore to categorize people.
    I'm straight but when it comes to gender it's more fluid.
    Is it even possible to have a male mind perfectly happy and content within female body?
    I remember as a small child I wanted to be a boy, and grew up a tomboy, having mostly male friends, braking bones, windows, and being a troublemaker.
    I appreciate my female form and I'm blessed to discover its power to create and give life, hower I've always struggled to confirm with the image of what it means to be a woman.
    I remember I went once to a Muslim wedding do with my husband. Staying close to him I found myself in the room full of chatting men, and didn't even noticed anything unusual about it. Feeling comfortable I tried to participate in a conversation, when suddenly I was gently asked out and reminded to join women's room. I've never felt so much out of the place and so bored!
    My proposition of "all honoured ones" comes from the place of no division. I can't even lable myself, why would I lable others?
    But I understand that the world is not yet at the place where differences don't matter and in the fight for inclusiveness it may be important to use labels.

    Sorry for going over 3 sentences.
    Gassho
    Sat
    Last edited by Ania; 10-30-2020 at 10:09 AM.

  41. #41
    Member Seishin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    La Croix-Avranchin, Basse Normandie, France
    From someone outside of the LGBTQ+ community, which some would refer to as "straight" (never really got that Americanism) I would be happy with "all honoured ones" and "all Treeleaf ancestors". Inclusive of all beings in the Universe...............planning for the future, after this year who knows what is on the (event) horizon.

    sat and contemplated


    Seishin

    Sei - Meticulous
    Shin - Heart

  42. #42
    I'm straight but when it comes to gender it's more fluid.
    Is it even possible to have a male mind perfectly happy and content within female body?
    I feel the same way the other way around, Ania, although wonder whether the whole idea that women and men should be a certain way is largely outmoded. Is a woman boxer any less female? A stay-at-home dad less masculine?

    In any case, I feel thankful that academic and spiritual communities I have been part of do not expect people with male bodies to like cars, sport and aggression and can instead prefer cooking, sewing and gardening.

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    -sattoday-
    ------------------------------------
    Feel free to message me if you wish to talk about issues around practicing with physical limitations. This is something I have been sitting with for a fair while and am happy to help with suggestions or just offer a listening ear.

  43. #43
    I think 'all honoured ones including those whose names have been forgotten or left unsaid' is inclusive of all and clear and direct.

    and Dee's suggestion of 'Ancestors from marginalised communities' is really good and in line with contemporary expression. As a disabled person I really can't warm to 'of different' or 'all natures'.

    Personally I don't experience differences I might have - either by free choice (chosen orientation) or circumstances (physical illness,etc) in a way that is expressed by the term 'nature'. The fact that one can be marginalised due to perceived/or actual difference is important though and needs to be recognised - but hopefully without a lineage chart/ or ceremony becoming too complicated or wordy.

    IMHO Reverence and respect for all needs to be conveyed in a simple and direct manner.


    Gassho

    Jinyo

    Sat today

    Just musing after writing this and occurred to me that we speak of our 'original nature' - 'original face' and that feels absolutely right so maybe I don't warm to term 'different natures' because it connects to the conventional world where we cut things up/discriminate etc.
    Last edited by Jinyo; 10-30-2020 at 11:32 AM.

  44. #44
    I am part of the LGBTQ+ community.

    I think that “all honored ones” is a great phrase, and maybe remembering those whose names were “forgotten or left unsaid” might be helpful as well.

    In a recent management seminar at work on inclusion I heard: “if you are not intentionally including you may be unintentionally excluding”. This was helpful for me.

    SatToday,

    Ian

  45. #45
    Member Hoseki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    St. John's Newfoundland, Canada.

    Proposed Change To The Treeleaf Eko Dedication

    Hi folks,


    I’m not sure I’m saying anything that hasn’t been said but here’s Hoseki’s hot take.

    I think “all honoured ones” works because it includes everyone like the way the cosmos kind of includes everything and in this way it can reflect the kind of wholeness of the cosmos. It can be paired with the different lineage charts to show the diversity of the wholeness. That way, when paired they follow the many and the whole vibe that runs thought Zen practice.

    Just a thought or two.

    Gassho,


    Hoseki
    Sattoday

    Edit: I forgot to mention that I would consider myself to be more or less cis and probably a man.

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  46. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokuu View Post
    I feel the same way the other way around, Ania, although wonder whether the whole idea that women and men should be a certain way is largely outmoded. Is a woman boxer any less female? A stay-at-home dad less masculine?

    In any case, I feel thankful that academic and spiritual communities I have been part of do not expect people with male bodies to like cars, sport and aggression and can instead prefer cooking, sewing and gardening.

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    -sattoday-
    I feel similarly, I often find it easier to keep up a conversation with women and such. Perhaps with the exception of technical subjects and then on average I've found more luck with men (but that's probably more likely due to the fact that statistically more men are into technical things than women).

    I do often think about the idea of men and women being a certain way being out dated. Like what does it matter if a woman likes traditionally male things or if a man likes traditionally female things...


    Evan,
    Sat today, lah
    Just going through life one day at a time!

  47. #47
    I like all honoured one, but to be honest I find the one we have still valid and inclusive.
    If you want to changs it, all honoured ones is the simplest way to do it.

    Gassho,
    Mags
    ST

  48. #48
    Wonderful conversation!

    My input is that little flower at the back of your garden seeking sunlight.

    'all honored ones' is perfect! Although I 'do not' reside within LGBTQ+ my wish is we all embrace and express equanimity in every endeavour.

    Thank you for courting a compassionate forum - bravo Treeleaf !


    Gassho,
    Brett.

  49. #49
    I'm not LGBTQ+, just expressing my appreciation for everyone contributing to the discussion, not offering an opinion. I am ignorant to what the best word choice might be, so I wholly support whatever option the consensus chooses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jakuden View Post
    I have had a couple of PM's from folks who would rather not reply on the public forum.... let's remember that yes, it is 2020, but in some countries, people can still get the death penalty for being LGBTQ+! (or even a disobedient female in some cases), it is not by any means a given that every person in that community would want to be out--even though Treeleaf is a mostly pretty friendly place In the U.S., teachers at private schools are still being fired over their gender identity and sexual orientation, families are still disowning LGBTQ+ children, and the list goes on. We should be sensitive to this.

    Gassho,
    Jakuden
    SatToday/LAH
    An excellent reminder.

    Gassho,
    Kenny
    Sat Today

  50. #50
    Thanks for bringing this topic to our attention and thanks to all who are participating in this discussion.

    I like the wording "all honored ones" because it seems to me that it has the same spirit as the message "just sit/sitting" - simple and no unnecessary distinctions (although it might be necessary to note that "sitting" is also meant in an inclusive way).

    I don't consider myself to be part of the LGBTQ+ community.

    Gassho
    Souchi

    SatToday

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •