Genjo Koan by David Brazier

[Kyotaku]

I was looking at some youtube films and talks by David Brazier
I read some books of him in the pas about psychotherapy and they are very good IMHO
so now I am curious if someone here had read the book about genjo koan by David Brazier

The Dark Side of the Mirror: Forgetting the Self in Dōgen's Genjō Kōan

thank you very much
Hans

[Jundo]

Hi Hans,

There are few Dharma Books that l criticize so strongly, but l am afraid that l have to be a bit harsh about David's book. David is a Pure Land Buddhist teacher who really rewrote much of the Genjo Koan, and imposed his own interpretations on the Genjo and Dogen, that l think are often way off the mark. l also found the book long, wordy and a bit hard to work through. l would be cautious. There are good parts too here and there, but overall l found it to be more David's voice and views than Dogen.

l am traveling today, so cannot write in detail. lf i can, l will provide an example or two later.

(Sorry for being too wordy here myself)

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Kyotaku]

Thanks Jundo. Very glad already with your remarks. Have a safe journey.
Sat Today
Gassho
Hans

[Kyotaku]

as a stubborn person I am I bought the book
indeed a very different perspective he gives but I like it as it turns my view several times totally round
though I am not convinced that he has it all right
he even dares to challenge the title and the four noble truths :-)
I will compare it again with the ones I read already , Okamura and Tanahashi and see what remains
and it would be interesting to find the original in Sino Japanese to see if he used the right kanji , then there might be some truth in it
though I assume a good translator as Okumura nows his Japanese better :-)
a nice practice exercise indeed it is
Hans
sat today

[Jundo]

as a stubborn person I am I bought the book
indeed a very different perspective he gives but I like it as it turns my view several times totally round
though I am not convinced that he has it all right
he even dares to challenge the title and the four noble truths :-)
I will compare it again with the ones I read already , Okamura and Tanahashi and see what remains
and it would be interesting to find the original in Sino Japanese to see if he used the right kanji , then there might be some truth in it
though I assume a good translator as Okumura nows his Japanese better :-)
a nice practice exercise indeed it is
Hans
sat today

Hi Kyotaku,

I was probably a bit harsh in what I wrote about the book above. There is much that is valuable in it, but it is also very dense and interwoven with David's ideas, so hard to read and may complicate matters sometimes. One has to watch for where David adds his own ideas. The rest of the book is a good study.

On page 61, he writes about the different Kanji that Dogen used for "Koan" in the title. That is correct. The Kanji which Dogen used for "an" (按) is sometimes interpreted as not the usual "an" (案) of Koan, as we typically discuss it in Zen. In other cases, it is the usual "案", as here:

http://www.shomonji.or.jp/soroku/genzou01/index.html

In the body of the text, Dogen uses the regular 案 "an": この行李したがひて現成公案す。このみちをうれば、この行李したがひて現成公案なり。

(It is in the section of the Genjo which Tanahashi Sensei renders as "When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point (genjo koan). When you find your way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point")

Shohaku Okumura discusses this very nicely in this explanation here, pages 11 through 14 (https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/dharma/pdf/01e.pdf). I think that David basically makes the same point, but does not say that Dogen also used the standard 案 Kanji when he discusses it on page 242.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Kyotaku]

great material Jundo , this helps me
thank you very much
I have the book of Okumura , as well as Tanahashi's but have to reread all this several times again :-)
but it is always nice to look at things from a new side
gassho
Hans
sattoday

[bukowski]

Hi all.

I had some e-mail contact with David Brazier many years ago. At that time i was training in Counselling, and David was both a therapist and Buddhist. I belive i was mulling over how my faith and my practice would sit together, and i read one of his books that spoke about the correlation betwen Buddhism and therapy, and it inspired me to contact him. I remember that this ment a lot to me, and we conversed for a short time via e-mail.

I think many therapists have a facination with understanding and in some way describing why things are the way they are. This can lead to what i would describe as a "talking out loud" type of postulating on potential interpretations of events. I share this trait. Perhaps David's works follow this pattern?

Either way, i found him very useful when i was setting out on my therapeutic journey all those years ago.

Metta, b. (Sat today, - LAH)

[Kyotaku]

Thanks for your comment / info.
He is also respected here in the Netherlands. One zenmaster gave a recension in the book . Anotber guy wrote the preface. He is giving 2 weekend sesshins next month here. I also loved his psychology books by the way.
But as I said, his perspective is refreshing anyhow. So I am glad to have read it.
Gassho 2
Hans
Sattoday

[Jinyo]

Hi there,

I'm reading David's book 'Zen Therapy' just now, also have some of his early books. I like the way he writes and feel he wears his 'knowledge' lightly because although he's read widely he writes in a very free flowing, almost free associative way that can belie the degree of research he's put in. I think he's possibly a bit of a maverick who does put his own interpretative stamp on things but he doesn't claim to have the truth/ or to be correct. He's not afraid to share his personal journey with buddhism ( I'd say he's just as comfortable with Zen as Pure Land and other traditions) so he seems more interfaith/tradition than any one particular thing. Anyway - that's just my general impression. I haven't read The Dark Side of the Mirror - just the opening pages that are up on Amazon - I enjoyed what he wrote - no idea if its reliable or not as to Dogen (have to trust Jundo's judgement on that) - but he has a very accessible way with words so I may read the whole thing as I liked what he wrote.
As you say Hans - refreshing.

Apologies - more than 3 sentences

Gassho

Jinyo

Sat today

[Stewart]

I very much enjoyed the book and reread it as soon as I had finished it. Although he is a Pureland practitioner now he has a long history with Zen and in sitting zazen, it is obvious that he has sympathy for the material. I was interested to read above that he is a therapist and that approach might be why I was so drawn into it. A lovely and quite easy read. The imagery he uses is so powerful and clear that it has stayed with me over the following months.

Stewart
Sat

[Jundo]

I very much enjoyed the book and reread it as soon as I had finished it. Although he is a Pureland practitioner now he has a long history with Zen and in sitting zazen, it is obvious that he has sympathy for the material. I was interested to read above that he is a therapist and that approach might be why I was so drawn into it. A lovely and quite easy read. The imagery he uses is so powerful and clear that it has stayed with me over the following months.

Stewart
Sat

Ya know how sometimes a first impression is off, or one brings a prejudice into a book or other encounter? There's a good chance I did that in this case, and read it with the wrong attitude.

I think that what I need to do is go back, try to read it again with a fresh and open mind, see if I misjudged what I read, I'll report back when I do.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Ryumon]

I just spotted that book the other day, and put it in my cart on Amazon. So this is a timely discussion. I'm not sure it's an essential book, and there are many others to read...

Gassho,

Kirk

sat

[Kyotaku]

after reading Jundo's book and rereading Shohaku Okamura's book on Genjokoan I think that , though a nice read , the book by Brazier focusses to much on the Mirror metaphor. All too much and too complex thinking in hindsight IMHO

sattoday
gassho
Hosei

[Gram]

Hi Hans,

There are few Dharma Books that l criticize so strongly, but l am afraid that l have to be a bit harsh about David's book. David is a Pure Land Buddhist teacher who really rewrote much of the Genjo Koan, and imposed his own interpretations on the Genjo and Dogen, that l think are often way off the mark. l also found the book long, wordy and a bit hard to work through. l would be cautious. There are good parts too here and there, but overall l found it to be more David's voice and views than Dogen.

l am traveling today, so cannot write in detail. lf i can, l will provide an example or two later.

Thank you Jundo.

I hope it's acceptable to post after some months but it's taken this long to read through and get a sense of things. Is it true that Suzuki Sensei asked for a Pureland Priest to attend to him in his last hours before leaving the body?

Kind regards,

Gram

Satoday

[Jundo]

Thank you Jundo.

I hope it's acceptable to post after some months but it's taken this long to read through and get a sense of things. Is it true that Suzuki Sensei asked for a Pureland Priest to attend to him in his last hours before leaving the body?

Kind regards,

Gram

Satoday

It is quite possible. Most of the Japanese Buddhist clergy in California were quite friendly, and I am sure that some would have come in aid of the family.

I will ask David Chadwick, Suzuki Roshi's official biographer, if he has more details. Good chance that it was this fellow, who seems to have been a friend.

http://www.cuke.com/Cucumber%20Proje...iews/ogui.html

Many Soto and other Zen folks, such as Uchiyama Roshi and D.T. Suzuki, had a special place in their hearts for Pure Land teachings, and sometimes Christianity too (in Uchiyama Roshi's case).

Officially, Suzuki Roshi's funeral was conducted by my Dharma Grandfather, Nishijima Roshi's teacher, Rempo Niwa Zenji. They both came from Shizuoka Japan, and Suzuki actually held a post as training instructor at our root temple, Tokei-in, for a time around WWII.

http://www.cuke.com/people/niwa-rempo.htm

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Gram]

Thank you Jundo,

Oh, I have the Crooked Cucumber, I shall read it again!!

Gassho,

Gram

Sattoday