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Thread: Perfectionism and over-effort during zazen and in life

  1. #1
    sheeep44
    Guest

    Perfectionism and over-effort during zazen and in life

    Hi all,

    I have been lurking around for quite some time now, and haven't been practicing for that long (+/- 6 months). But I was wondering, how does one 'deal' with / accept perfectionism and over-effort during zazen and in life? And how does one return to 'being' - nothing special. How does one cultivate the quality of resting awareness (i.e, be aware) so that one doesn't get entangled in these qualities of mind, especially during stressful situations? How do you embrace these qualities and at the same time let them be and letting them go?


    Metta,

    Matthieuw

  2. #2
    Hi Matthieuw

    We cultivate the resting awareness by sitting and I find that spills over into the rest of life in time.

    Then, off the cushion we do our best to behave ethically and with honesty and respect and accept that we will fall short on numerous occasions, including through striving too hard.

    I like these words of Chinese monk Shitou Xiqian (700-790):

    Let go of hundreds of years and relax completely.
    Open your hands and walk, innocent.
    Thousands of words, myriad interpretations,
    Are only to free you from obstructions.
    If you want to know the undying person in the hut,
    Don't separate from this skin bag here and now.



    Apologies for the extra sentences.

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    -sattoday-

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokuu View Post
    these words of Chinese monk Shitou Xiqian (700-790):

    Let go of hundreds of years and relax completely.
    Open your hands and walk, innocent.
    Thousands of words, myriad interpretations,
    Are only to free you from obstructions.
    If you want to know the undying person in the hut,
    Don't separate from this skin bag here and now.



    Apologies for the extra sentences.

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    -sattoday-
    It was actually Shitou’s fault lol

    gassho

    risho

  4. #4
    It was actually Shitou’s fault lol
    It felt a bit bad to blame him!

  5. #5
    I’m at a local AA meeting! Just what I’ve needed! Talk at you soon
    Gassho
    sat/ lah
    Tai Shi


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Peaceful Poet, Tai Shi. Ubasoku; calm, supportive, limited to positive 優婆塞 台 婆

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by sheeep44 View Post
    Hi all,

    I have been lurking around for quite some time now, and haven't been practicing for that long (+/- 6 months). But I was wondering, how does one 'deal' with / accept perfectionism and over-effort during zazen and in life? And how does one return to 'being' - nothing special. How does one cultivate the quality of resting awareness (i.e, be aware) so that one doesn't get entangled in these qualities of mind, especially during stressful situations? How do you embrace these qualities and at the same time let them be and letting them go?


    Metta,

    Matthieuw
    Hello Matthieu, I am also new around here! My advice would be to check the videos for new folks, the Buddha basics, bodhisattva basics, etc (if you haven't already done so). Those videos are teaching me quite a bit about the exact same questions that you have. I do not have the descriptive, contemplative and humor skills that Jundo has developed, so I can't really give straight answers to these questions. I'm sure other Sangha members can offer much help.

    Gassho, Tomás
    Sat&LaH

  7. #7
    Hello Matthieu,

    these are good questions!

    When you sit, not even "letting be or letting go" is needed, everything that is, simply IS. No returning . No dealing . No effort .

    Zazen helps to soften our very rigid views and understandings of "perfection" into broader, and eventually, into right view .
    Just by allowing to open up, soften ... we can't force ourselves into right view; we need to trust the process and, like Jundo says, be gentle .

    Gassho,
    eva
    sattoday and LAH /my apologies for extra sentences/

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by sheeep44 View Post
    Hi all,

    I have been lurking around for quite some time now, and haven't been practicing for that long (+/- 6 months). But I was wondering, how does one 'deal' with / accept perfectionism and over-effort during zazen and in life? And how does one return to 'being' - nothing special. How does one cultivate the quality of resting awareness (i.e, be aware) so that one doesn't get entangled in these qualities of mind, especially during stressful situations? How do you embrace these qualities and at the same time let them be and letting them go?


    Metta,

    Matthieuw
    Perfectionism and an overachiever attitude don’t really apply to zazen as there is no good zazen, better zazen or best zazen. There is just the zazen you’re sitting now and it is perfectly complete as it is. Our only task is to experience that zazen. Off the zafu, we can be competitive at times, aiming for perfection at other times, but sitting teaches us a valuable lesson: everything is complete just the way it is and any notion of “should be”, “could be” “if only” is a fabrication of the mind, which we can simply acknowledge and let go. If you want and can make something better, that’s fine. But if you can’t, remember not to get caught up in your own fabricated desires.

    Sorry about the extra lines!

    SatToday lah
    Bion
    -------------------------
    When you put Buddha’s activity into practice, only then are you a buddha. When you act like a fool, then you’re a fool. - Sawaki Roshi

  9. #9
    1. perfectionism is the ego; just do what you should do; but it doesn’t mean go easy; do your best; although you should avoid the trap of perfectionism, there is a right way to do things; do not go gentle into that good night; do not let up; do not give up; really always do your best in this life

    2. absolutely everyone of us who has been lucky enough to have this life is special; I think nothing special pertains to how the ego views special( how it calculates andmeasures), but we are all incredible, luminous beings to quote master yoda; that is why in zen there is so much focus on everyone, doing, being with everyone becsuse we are all so special but we lose that feeling when we forget we are all in this together; we truly are one family

    gassho

    risho
    -stlah

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by sheeep44 View Post
    Hi all,

    I have been lurking around for quite some time now, and haven't been practicing for that long (+/- 6 months). But I was wondering, how does one 'deal' with / accept perfectionism and over-effort during zazen and in life? And how does one return to 'being' - nothing special. How does one cultivate the quality of resting awareness (i.e, be aware) so that one doesn't get entangled in these qualities of mind, especially during stressful situations? How do you embrace these qualities and at the same time let them be and letting them go?


    Metta,

    Matthieuw
    Hi Matthieuw,

    Some very good perspectives and advice from the folks who commented above.

    Life is rarely "perfect," so I advise folks to be sincere in their efforts but ... not too loose and not too tight ... like the famous teaching of Sona and the lute string:

    [The Buddha said], "Sona, you were a musician and you used to play the lute. Tell me, Sona, did you produce good music when the lute string was well tuned, neither too tight nor too loose?"

    "I was able to produce good music, Lord," replied Sona.

    "What happened when the strings were too tightly wound up?"

    "I could not produce any music, Lord," said Sona.

    "What happened when the strings were too slack?"

    "I could not produce any music at all, Lord," replied Sona

    "Sona ... You have been straining too hard in your meditation. Do it in a relaxed way, but without being slack. Try it again and you will experience the good result."
    For folks who are too obsessed, I advise them to intentionally add a tiny (not too extreme) imperfection to their practice on purpose each time (e.g., when we sew the Rakusu at the end, we intentionally take a little finger of dirt or ink and stain the cloth so that it is not "perfect," and just perfectly imperfect). When sitting Zazen, purposely make a funny face for a moment, or purposely put the incense slightly off center in the incense bowl. If you have watched the "We're all Beginners" series, the heart of Shikantaza Zazen and our practice is letting things be "just as we are," even as we keep trying, in this perfectly never perfect world. Here is one, the title pretty much says it all about accepting the weather as it is, yet carrying an umbrella too:

    Zazen for Beginners (16) - Letting The Weather Be The Weather
    https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...nners-%2816%29

    If you look closely at a stone or a flower, you will notice that there is never one that is "perfect" without some small flaw or scar, and yet each one is its own shining jewel, perfectly just what it is as that unique stone or flower. It does not need to do or be anything more to be that unique stone or flower. As a human being, we are the same. So, in your actions, be sincere, work hard, "do your best" to work for goals ... but through Shikantaza, learn to also give up all goals. The result is our practice of "goals without goals," leading us to work sincerely but without attachment to outcomes.

    Zazen for Beginners (5) - The Race To Right Here
    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...inners-%285%29

    Please report back to us how it goes.

    (Sorry for perfectly imperfectly running long).

    Gassho, J

    SatTodayLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 09-19-2020 at 07:48 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  11. #11
    Perfectionism isn’t bad. If one strives for the good, the true, and the beautiful one might be disappointed: on the other hand, it is this impetus which has kept me seeking.
    Gassho
    sat/ lah
    Tai Shi


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Peaceful Poet, Tai Shi. Ubasoku; calm, supportive, limited to positive 優婆塞 台 婆

  12. #12
    sheeep44
    Guest
    Thanks everyone for replying! This has been of so much help. Realizing that every moment is perfectly imperfect, accepting as it is, not judging and not resisting situations, while also being able to work toward goalless-goals.

    Just the kind of advice I needed. I have been reminding myself of these aspects, watching the "beginners video's" and reading the buddhist-basics; that Dukkha comes from resisting or wishing a situation / the world to be X, while instead we should "go with the flow"; whilst still doing the things we need to do.

    Thanks everyone.

    Gassho

    Matthieuw

  13. #13
    The problem is when we insist. The solution is when we ask. That is the nature of gratitude.
    Gassho
    sat / Tai Shi
    Lah


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Peaceful Poet, Tai Shi. Ubasoku; calm, supportive, limited to positive 優婆塞 台 婆

  14. #14
    I have to give credit to learning as father and husband. We learn best by doing. Remember most of you are younger, and life is what you are willing to surrender to.
    Gassho
    Deep bows
    sat/ lah
    Taishi


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Peaceful Poet, Tai Shi. Ubasoku; calm, supportive, limited to positive 優婆塞 台 婆

  15. #15
    Consistent effort. When your effort starts slacking, tighten it up.

    Gassho

    Sat Today

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Byrne View Post
    Consistent effort. When your effort starts slacking, tighten it up.

    Gassho

    Sat Today
    Just make sure you don't tighten up too much either


    Evan,
    Sat today, lah
    Just going through life one day at a time!

  17. #17
    Member Yokai's Avatar
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    Jan 2020
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    Life is rarely "perfect," so I advise folks to be sincere in their efforts but...not too loose and not too tight
    Thanks Jundo,

    I'm finding the Rakusu sewing a great lesson in this. Sincere effort, but accepting the perfection in imperfections. Especially for someone with perfectionist tendencies!

    Gassho, Chris satlah

  18. #18
    Hi Matthieuw, here’s my take on it:

    Life is perfectly imperfect and in Zazen it’s beyond perfect and imperfect rather you are precious, whole and complete like all Buddha’s and ancestors. Trusting that I am whole and complete like a Buddha, I naturally, to quote you “return to 'being' - nothing special. How does one cultivate the quality of resting awareness (i.e, be aware) so that one doesn't get entangled in these qualities of mind”? When stressful situations come up one part of me perceives everything is accepting, equanimous, whole, complete, precious, non-stressful non-stress, not wanting more of anything, just the way it is and another part of me is completely stressed out. Like seeing different things in each eye as Jundo says sometimes.

    In the ZenofEverything podcast Jundo was asked what the secret of Zen is and Jundo replied something like: it is having two opposing views at once, like a tear of sadness rolling down the face and a smile of joy at the same time. Sorry this is more than three sentences but I think it’s extremely relevant.


    Gassho,
    Tom
    Sat/LAH
    Last edited by StoBird; 09-25-2020 at 03:40 AM.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Tai Shi View Post
    I have to give credit to learning as father and husband. We learn best by doing. Remember most of you are younger, and life is what you are willing to surrender to.
    Gassho
    Deep bows
    sat/ lah
    Taishi


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Letting go
    Of rejecting and clinging
    Racing thoughts and struggle
    To be where I am not
    I surrender to
    The firmness of zafu
    And the softness of breath

    Gassho
    Sat

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Ania View Post
    Letting go
    Of rejecting and clinging
    Racing thoughts and struggle
    To be where I am not
    I surrender to
    The firmness of zafu
    And the softness of breath

    Gassho
    Sat
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisKiwi View Post
    Thanks Jundo,

    I'm finding the Rakusu sewing a great lesson in this. Sincere effort, but accepting the perfection in imperfections. Especially for someone with perfectionist tendencies!

    Gassho, Chris satlah
    Oh yeah! In spades! I am a perfectionist but sewing the Rakusu made me confront those tendencies.


    Tairin
    Sat today and lah
    泰林 - Tai Rin - Peaceful Woods

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Ania View Post
    Letting go
    Of rejecting and clinging
    Racing thoughts and struggle
    To be where I am not
    I surrender to
    The firmness of zafu
    And the softness of breath

    Gassho
    Sat
    Awesome! Thank you

    Edit I have to add this from Tenso Kyokun; just read this from the 8th talk by Jundo and it is so resonant to this

    Even when, for example, one makes a soup of the crudest greens, one should not give rise to a mind that loathes it or takes its lightly; and even when one makes a soup of the finest cream, one should not give rise to a mind that feels glad and rejoices in it. If one is at the outset free from preferences, how could one have any aversions? Even when confronted with poor ingredients, there is no negligence whatsoever; even when faced with scanty ingredients, one exerts oneself. Do not change your mind in accordance with things. Whoever changes his mind in accordance with things, or revises his words to suit the person [he is speaking to], is not a man of the way.
    I love this mind of surrendering so you can really just be in it; not passivity but a path to true action, right action, not for the ego. So ordinary but a true miracle

    Again thank you Ania; beautiful poem.

    Apologies for going over 3 sentences

    Gassho

    rish
    -stlah
    Last edited by Risho; 09-26-2020 at 03:47 PM.

  23. #23

    Perfectionism and over-effort during zazen and in life

    Ania, I have to admire your stick to it ness it’s great to see for all of you, I remember buying thread and cloth, realizing sewing rakusu was impossible and though I’d studied The Mind of Clover and Jundo’s suggested readings. I just say impossible because of my disability so almost too late I asked for help, and received beautiful green rakusu gift of my Sanghs, 2016, and again this year 2020 being part of Jukai, thank you for my rakusu, thank you back in 2016, my Sangha let me participate. Marjorie sewed my rakusu cover my beautiful wife of 38 years.
    Gassho
    sat/ lah
    Tai Shi


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Peaceful Poet, Tai Shi. Ubasoku; calm, supportive, limited to positive 優婆塞 台 婆

  24. #24
    Letting go
    Of rejecting and clinging
    Racing thoughts and struggle
    To be where I am not
    I surrender to
    The firmness of zafu
    And the softness of breath
    Beautiful!

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Ania View Post
    Letting go
    Of rejecting and clinging
    Racing thoughts and struggle
    To be where I am not
    I surrender to
    The firmness of zafu
    And the softness of breath

    Gassho
    Sat
    Beautiful verse Ania! The last line, in particular, really resonated with me.

    Gassho,
    Rob

    -stlah-



    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
    聖簡 Seikan (Sacred Simplicity)

  26. #26
    Beautiful words, Ania. Matthieuw, everything has been said here, so I will just say I still practice with this... every minute of every day. To attain the enlightened way... a way non-attainable. So let everyone's advice sink into your bones and changes will happen slowly, but don't expect to be perfect in dropping your perfectionism either!

    Gassho,
    Jakuden
    SatToday

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