Zazen with closed eyes?

[Inshin]

When it comes to phisical guidance on Zazen, the only reasons for having eyes slightly opened, that I know of, is to allow outside reality in, and to prevent drowsiness and overflow of thoughts. But what if keeping eyes slightly opened is a struggle for someone and mind settles by itself more easily with closed eyes? Are there any explanations why sitting with closed eyes is not Zazen?

Gassho
Sat

[Horin]

Hello Ania,
I think Zazen is taught by good reason to keep the eyes half open. Also when we sit properly in this way, we should not encounter much struggle. As far as I know, the whole posture from the eyes down to the legs is ideal to have a comfortable, yet erect way to sit, a perfect balance between relaxation and sitting upright without tension. Maybe there's something wrong with your way of sitting when half open half closed eyes make you struggle?
Only my 2 cents, im sure jundo or the unsuis will say something more or better.

Also, sorry for too much sentences


Gassho,

Horin

Stlah

Enviado desde mi PLK-L01 mediante Tapatalk

[Sekiyuu]

To my surprise, in "What is Zen", Norman Fischer briefly mentions that closing your eyes is okay if that seems to work better for you.

Keep in mind that there is no "good" or "bad" zazen, and that we should abandon our preferences during zazen: I have had many sits where my mind never seemed to settle, but I wouldn't say they were bad or useless sits.

That said, the preferences to avoid knee pain, to stay awake, or to remedy twitchy eyes sound like good ones to listen to.

Gassho,
Kenny
Sat Today

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[Ryumon]

I confess that I have lots of problems with this for two reasons. First of all, I have an intentional tremor (a tremor when muscles are used, rather than at rest), so with half-closed eyes, my eyelids don't stay still. Second, my vision is such that I see very little out of my right eye, and when I'm sitting zazen, if I let my vision unfocus, things get very weird (I see double, among other things). I try to sit with half-closed eyes, but I have to admit that I more often have to keep them closed. At some times of the day it works better, but it's very difficult.

Gassho,

Kirk

sat

[gaurdianaq]

I tend to alternate, I often close my eyes for a few minutes if I feel like I'm getting too distracted by the outside world, and then open them back up. I also rarely do half closed because it often feels unnatural (sometimes it does, but other times it feels like I have to put a great bit of effort to keep them half closed)


Evan,
Sat today, lah

[shikantazen]

I think looking down at the wall at a 45 degree angle automatically gets eyes half closed. I don't make any intentional effort to keep eyes half closed. I could be wrong though (will let Jundo or senior folks chime in).

Keeping eyes closed might make sense in other practices where we have an object to focus the mind on. In Zazen without any such anchor to focus on, keeping eyes open helps us wake up. Closing eyes one may get lost and may fall asleep easily

Gassho,
Sam
ST

[gaurdianaq]

Closing eyes one may get lost and may fall asleep easily

Gassho,
Sam
ST

Perhaps if you're keeping them closed for extended periods of time, but it can also be helpful to bring yourself back to the present moment rather than darting around to everything that's in the room/on the floor/the cat walking by. It also varies person to person, everyone is different.

[Tomás ESP]

I sit with eyes closed. I have tried to sit with eyes half open, but it just doesn't fit.

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

[Kyōsen]

Since I moved into my "new" place I have found that gazing with eyes open or half-open conflicts with the pattern in the carpet which makes my eyes very blurry very quickly. I think I'm going to look into some kind of blanket to lay down on the floor for me to gaze at that's a solid color.

Gassho
Kyōsen
Sat|LAH

[Ryumon]

Since I moved into my "new" place I have found that gazing with eyes open or half-open conflicts with the pattern in the carpet which makes my eyes very blurry very quickly. I think I'm going to look into some kind of blanket to lay down on the floor for me to gaze at that's a solid color.

I had a problem in a previous house where the wallpaper, which was off-white with a sort of paisley pattern, would start moving after a while if I kept my eyes open. It was freaky.

Gassho,

Kirk

sat

[Cooperix]

My eyes are closed. It works best for me.

Gassho, Anne
~lahst~

[Kokuu]

Hi all

I am quite surprised that so many people sit with eyes shut as I have always been taught that eyes looking downward at a 45 degree angle was Zen orthodoxy. Most Tibetan teachers also emphasise sitting with eyes open (or at least in the same looking down method which is neither totally shut nor totally open).

For me, shutting the eyes changes the nature of experience making it more inward looking and harder to take directly into life off of the cushion, but I have nearly always sat like this and don't have a problem with doing it.

In Fukanzazengi (Universally Recommended Instructions for Zazen) written by Dōgen in 1228, he instructs in the following way:

At your sitting place, spread out a thick mat and put a cushion on it. Sit either in the full-lotus or half-lotus position. In the full-lotus position, first place your right foot on your left thigh, then your left foot on your right thigh. In the half-lotus, simply place your left foot on your right thigh. Tie your robes loosely and arrange them neatly. Then place your right hand on your left leg and your left hand on your right palm, thumb-tips lightly touching. Straighten your body and sit upright, leaning neither left nor right, neither forward nor backward. Align your ears with your shoulders and your nose with your navel. Rest the tip of your tongue against the front of the roof of your mouth, with teeth together and lips shut. Always keep your eyes open [my emphasis], and breathe softly through your nose.

I will be interested to see what Jundo says as I don't know how pivotal eyes open is to the practice of Shikantaza. Presumably people who are blind and visually-impaired still sit. In cases where people have issues with aspects of sitting we usually allow them to change what they need to while still maintaining the wholehearted completeness of sitting with all that is but I will leave this one for Jundo to pronounce on.

Thank you for bringing it up, Ania, and for the others who have professed a preference either way. Apologies for going (well) over three sentences.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Seikan]

For me, shutting the eyes changes the nature of experience making it more inward looking and harder to take directly into life off of the cushion, but I have nearly always sat like this and don't have a problem with doing it.

This. I've practiced both ways as I used to keep my eyes closed when I practiced Vipassana, and it was exactly as Kokuu describes above--more inward looking. That approach certainly has its merits (especially with more focused forms of practice that may entail working exclusively with thoughts, sounds, etc.), but I personally find that sitting with eyes open (if you are physically able to, that is) is more in line with how Zazen/Shikantaza is sitting with the totality of the moment as it unfolds. That said, I would think that an eyes closed approach may be perfectly fine as long as it is the most beneficial means for someone in a particular situation, just like there is no one "correct" way to sit (cushion, chair, lion's pose, etc.).

Gassho,
Rob

-stlah-

Apologies for the length of my response. This is just my 1.5 cents, and I welcome any corrections to my view.

[Eikyo]

But what if keeping eyes slightly opened is a struggle for someone and mind settles by itself more easily with closed eyes? Are there any explanations why sitting with closed eyes is not Zazen?

Gassho
Sat

When I was taught at San Francisco Zen Centre (which admittedly could be different guidance from that here at Treeleaf), eyes closed meditation is considered samatha, however it is different from zazen because with eyes closed we are more apt to enter a hypnotic state (which may be why eyes closed feels easier). Eyes open is considered zazen as we are then letting in the whole world and learning to be with what is - to be with the shadows on the wall and the weird ways our eyes play with the light and go out of focus, to be with the sounds, with the breath, all at once, and to maintain the state of awareness and presence with all of that.
Eyes open is not easier, nor does that seem to be the point- but it is traditional zazen.


Gassho,
Dee
ST / LAH

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[Jundo]

Hmmm.

I would encourage folks to sit with eyes about half open (comfortably, without strain), looking downward more or less 45 degrees, at a blank wall or, if not possible, a blank floor. I would say to only close the eyes if there is a true medical reason (such as Kirk described). If you feel the need to close them to settle a bit, try to then open them after a time.

It really is a different experience, with eyes half open not shutting out the world nor running towards it. All in the visual field is met with equanimity and non-judgment, and we do not mentally entangle with whatever is present. This is also a good practice for when we return to daily life and can better meet all the things in our world with the same wisdom. In contrast, the closed eye practice is much more world removed, inward, trippy as the only thing seen are the patterns of dots and cones of the eye and whatever patterns they produce, or darkness.

So, I would encourage folks to sit with eyes half open or, if they have trouble settle, to close them for a few minutes then open them, looking at a rather plain surface such as a wall without mentally entangling with what is seen. Open eyes is the recommendation of the vast, vast majority of Soto Zen teachers in my experience.

(Sorry, ran more than 3 sentences).

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Eikyo]

I had a problem in a previous house where the wallpaper, which was off-white with a sort of paisley pattern, would start moving after a while if I kept my eyes open. It was freaky.

Gassho,

Kirk

sat

I experience this a lot too Kirk, but I find focusing on the visual tricks our minds play is a kind of train of thought, the kind which we can practice letting go of like we do with other thoughts.
Sometimes the radiator I am looking at starts melting Dali-style but I don't focus on the weird visual effects, they just are what they are.

Gassho,
Dee
ST/LAH

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[Bion]

Hmmm.

I would encourage folks to sit with eyes about half open (comfortably, without strain), looking downward more or less 45 degrees, at a blank wall or, if not possible, a blank floor. I would say to only close the eyes if there is a true medical reason (such as Kirk described). If you feel the need to close them to settle a bit, try to then open them after a time.

It really is a different experience, with eyes half open not shutting out the world nor running towards it. All in the visual field is met with equanimity and non-judgment, and we do not mentally entangle with whatever is present. This is also a good practice for when we return to daily life and can better meet all the things in our world with the same wisdom. In contrast, the closed eye practice is much more world removed, inward, trippy as the only thing seen are the patterns of dots and cones of the eye and whatever patterns they produce, or darkness.

So, I would encourage folks to sit with eyes half open or, if they have trouble settle, to close them for a few minutes then open them, looking at a rather plain surface such as a wall without mentally entangling with what is seen. Open eyes is the recommendation of the vast, vast majority of Soto Zen teachers in my experience.

(Sorry, ran more than 3 sentences).

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

Funny thing, I remember reading the “instructions” for zazen somewhere back in the day when I was learning about it and I think it was on the Soto website (though not really sure) where they explained it was to be done with eyes half open, looking down at a 45 degree angle etc .. and then there was a little mention saying something like: many westerners have trouble focusing with eyes open, which is easier for japanese people, so in the west some sit zazen with eyes closed.. just don’t fall asleep! To me that was hilarious back then and it still is now.

sattoday lah

Short edit: probably not the Soto website. I think it was a monk .. Sorry about the extra sentences.

[Jundo]

P.S. - I sometimes comment this too:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I just sit, looking out through my half open eyes, no differently than if I were sitting at my kitchen table looking at the room or driving a car looking at the road. If looking at the wall, I am just looking as if looking at any scenery. Normal vision, but I just am not particularly thinking about, pondering or concentrating on what I am seeing. I describe it as "staring at everything and nothing in particular". My eyes take in the room or the floor or wall quiet naturally, but I do not latch onto anything mentally to think about what I am seeing. For example, my eyes may rest on a chair or on some spots on the wall, but I just do not get lost in thoughts such as "ugly chair, need to go chair shopping" or "those dots look just like a giraffe"

My focus just wanders from point to point to point quite naturally, resting where they rest, on this or that, then moving on when they move on.

What a room looks like before Zazen ...



What the room looks like during Zazen (but just not thinking particularly thoughts like "ugly sofa, nice chair, wish I were outside, need to clean this dirty floor ... "



Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Margherita]

I sit with my eyes half closed, looking down at 45 degrees, but I have very dry eyes, so at times they start twitching or stinging a lot. If that happens I will close my eyes for a few seconds to let them rest, every so often. I find sitting with my eyes closed to feel differently, I prefer to keep my eyes half open if possibile.

Gassho,
Mags
ST

[Onka]

IMHO I think people think too much about having their eyes "half open". May I suggest that approaching Shikantaza and Kinhin with "soft eyes" as it was descdibed to me my first time at an IRL Zendo. "Soft eyes" to me describes a relaxed gaze that focuses on nothing but allows awareness of everything.
Gassho
Onka
ST

[Eikyo]

IMHO I think people think too much about having their eyes "half open". May I suggest that approaching Shikantaza and Kinhin with "soft eyes" as it was descdibed to me my first time at an IRL Zendo. "Soft eyes" to me describes a relaxed gaze that focuses on nothing but allows awareness of everything.
Gassho
Onka
ST

Yes this is a helpful description and how I approach it too (but didn't have the words for). Thank you Onka

Gassho,
Dee
ST / LAH

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[Jundo]

IMHO I think people think too much about having their eyes "half open". May I suggest that approaching Shikantaza and Kinhin with "soft eyes" as it was descdibed to me my first time at an IRL Zendo. "Soft eyes" to me describes a relaxed gaze that focuses on nothing but allows awareness of everything.
Gassho
Onka
ST

Yes, lovely. And don't forget to blink too! There is nothing unnatural or forced about sitting with eyes a bit open, and I often compare it to how we are when driving a car, looking at the road ahead ...

Gassho, J

STLah

[Inshin]

Sitting with eyes half opened made them very watery, tears would fall down my cheeks so in my discouragement I did more reaserch and I came across short videos by Olivier Wang-Genh were he recommends having eyes 1/3 opened, just allowing for the light to enter but not being distracted by forms - that seems to work fine for me, and I close my eyes just at the very beginning of zazen to settle down more easily.
I also noticed that sitting and allowing outside in, "helps" for Samadhi / flow concentration to spill into activity, whereas it takes a bit of time to emerge from closed eyes meditation back to reality.
I wasn't sure how relevant it was for Zazen but now after reading your replies I understand that it has a significance - for the whole of life to gradually become Shikantanza and not only time on the zafu.

Thank you.

Gassho
Sat

[Bion]

Sitting with eyes half opened made them very watery, tears would fall down my cheeks so in my discouragement I did more reaserch and I came across short videos by Olivier Wang-Genh were he recommends having eyes 1/3 opened, just allowing for the light to enter but not being distracted by forms - that seems to work fine for me, and I close my eyes just at the very beginning of zazen to settle down more easily.
I also noticed that sitting and allowing outside in, "helps" for Samadhi / flow concentration to spill into activity, whereas it takes a bit of time to emerge from closed eyes meditation back to reality.
I wasn't sure how relevant it was for Zazen but now after reading your replies I understand that it has a significance - for the whole of life to gradually become Shikantanza and not only time on the zafu.

Thank you.

Gassho
Sat

Ania, if you simply relax your eyes, looking down slightly, defocusing your vision instead of insistently gazing at one spot, you’ll find your eyes naturally remain open enough. If you force them to stay in a certain position they might get tired and teary. There’s also a point to facing a wall, not sitting in direct sunlight, not facing a window and keeping the lighting dim in your sitting space. Keep your eyes defocused, almost like you’re looking at something that’s between your nose and the wall and try to sit not farther than 1 m from the wall. See if that maybe helps.

Sorry for running long!

SatToday

[Inshin]

Ania, if you simply relax your eyes, looking down slightly, defocusing your vision instead of insistently gazing at one spot, you’ll find your eyes naturally remain open enough. If you force them to stay in a certain position they might get tired and teary. There’s also a point to facing a wall, not sitting in direct sunlight, not facing a window and keeping the lighting dim in your sitting space. Keep your eyes defocused, almost like you’re looking at something that’s between your nose and the wall and try to sit not farther than 1 m from the wall. See if that maybe helps.

Sorry for running long!

SatToday

Thank you!

Sat

[Meitou]

IMHO I think people think too much about having their eyes "half open". May I suggest that approaching Shikantaza and Kinhin with "soft eyes" as it was descdibed to me my first time at an IRL Zendo. "Soft eyes" to me describes a relaxed gaze that focuses on nothing but allows awareness of everything.
Gassho
Onka
ST

Yes, this. Almost exactly the words used to teach when I was first sitting 'formless' meditation in the Tibetan tradition - it just took a little practice at first, but now comes naturally.
Gassho
Meitou
Sattoday lah

[Seikan]

Agree with other comments above—I just let my gaze settle at around 45 degrees and let my eyes partially close to wherever they land while keeping them soft and relaxed.

I have no idea if they are actually "half" open or 1/3 or 42.973% open. I've never bothered to look.

Gassho,
Rob

-stlah-


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[Meian]

I've never been able to do this. My eyes are either open or shut, never in between. But due to a health issue the past couple years, I just do what i can now.

Gassho meian st lh

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[Tomás ESP]

After all of these responses, I will try again to sit with eyes half open.

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

[threethirty]

I had a problem in a previous house where the wallpaper, which was off-white with a sort of paisley pattern, would start moving after a while if I kept my eyes open. It was freaky.

Gassho,

Kirk

sat

Some people pay good money for that

St

Sent from my Nokia 3.1 C using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

Sitting with eyes half opened made them very watery, tears would fall down my cheeks so in my discouragement I did more reaserch and I came across short videos by Olivier Wang-Genh were he recommends having eyes 1/3 opened, just allowing for the light to enter but not being distracted by forms - that seems to work fine for me, and I close my eyes just at the very beginning of zazen to settle down more easily.
I also noticed that sitting and allowing outside in, "helps" for Samadhi / flow concentration to spill into activity, whereas it takes a bit of time to emerge from closed eyes meditation back to reality.
I wasn't sure how relevant it was for Zazen but now after reading your replies I understand that it has a significance - for the whole of life to gradually become Shikantanza and not only time on the zafu.

Thank you.

Gassho
Sat

Yes, it sounds like you must be doing something unnatural, e.g., forgetting to blink, staring too fixedly, holding them too much open. There should be absolutely nothing different about sitting Zazen for 30 minutes than driving a car for 30 minutes, having tea with a friend for 30 minutes or looking at a computer screen for 30 minutes (and I assume you don't drive a car with your eyes closed! ). Eyes fully open is acceptable, but we usually sit about 1/3 or half open, and again, it should be natural ... normal blinking ... normal degree of eye movement ... normal looking ... so I do not see what could cause watering and tears.

In Shikantaza, by the way, we are not seeking "Samadhi/flow concentration," so I am not sure what you mean by that. Are you trying for that? It is a bit different from "just sitting" maybe.

Sorry, the words ran a bit long.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Kokuu]

I've never been able to do this. My eyes are either open or shut, never in between. But due to a health issue the past couple years, I just do what i can now.

Meian

Doing what you can is totally fine. We are not here to try and force people to do something which goes against their health.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Jundo]

Meian

Doing what you can is totally fine. We are not here to try and force people to do something which goes against their health.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

Yes.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Inshin]

In Shikantaza, by the way, we are not seeking "Samadhi/flow concentration," so I am not sure what you mean by that. Are you trying for that? It is a bit different from "just sitting" maybe.

Sorry, the words ran a bit long.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

Not sure, maybe I used wrong words, mindfulness being more appropriate (or perhaps mindlessness?) I stopped striving for anything in Shikantaza, just letting everything be as it is, and sometimes when the breath and thoughts settle there is just a flow of whatever is arrising/disappearing without me engaging with it/ getting pulled by a thought or sensation. It continues beyond the zafu in a way that walking is just walking, putting a kettle on is just that, washing a cup is just that until a thought or something else has enough power to pull me in and the blender switches back on/I get lost in planning, reflecting on something, etc. It just happens and is definitely not any special, "otherworldly" state, rather an ordinary mind but present.
Sorry for extra sentence and lack of "proper" words.
Gassho
Sat

[Jundo]

Not sure, maybe I used wrong words, mindfulness being more appropriate (or perhaps mindlessness?) I stopped striving for anything in Shikantaza, just letting everything be as it is, and sometimes when the breath and thoughts settle there is just a flow of whatever is arrising/disappearing without me engaging with it/ getting pulled by a thought or sensation. It continues beyond the zafu in a way that walking is just walking, putting a kettle on is just that, washing a cup is just that until a thought or something else has enough power to pull me in and the blender switches back on/I get lost in planning, reflecting on something, etc. It just happens and is definitely not any special, "otherworldly" state, rather an ordinary mind but present.
Sorry for extra sentence and lack of "proper" words.
Gassho
Sat

That sounds very balanced and wise. Lovely.

In our practice, we know such "in the flow" states of ease, but don't cling to them or think the goal is to be so 24/7/365. Sometimes we are "in the flow," sometimes life's river overflows and we find ourselves carried away up to our necks and ... that's okay too.

Sometimes "walking is just walking, putting a kettle on is just that, washing a cup is just that" ... and sometimes we walk right into a table and stub our toe yelling an 4 letter word, the kettles boils over, we drop the cup into 100 pieces ... and that's life too, just fine. We try to avoid the excesses of desire, anger, frustration, etc. ... but don't expect to be perfect either.

(Sorry, imperfectly ran a bit long)

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Meian]

Meian

Doing what you can is totally fine. We are not here to try and force people to do something which goes against their health.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

Yes, my apologies, I did not intend to imply otherwise. Only meant to share from my personal experience. Thank you for clarifying, very sorry for any misunderstandings.

Gassho2, meian st lh

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[Inshin]

That sounds very balanced and wise. Lovely.

In our practice, we know such "in the flow" states of ease, but don't cling to them or think the goal is to be so 24/7/365. Sometimes we are "in the flow," sometimes life's river overflows and we find ourselves carried away up to our necks and ... that's okay too.

Sometimes "walking is just walking, putting a kettle on is just that, washing a cup is just that" ... and sometimes we walk right into a table and stub our toe yelling an 4 letter word, the kettles boils over, we drop the cup into 100 pieces ... and that's life too, just fine. We try to avoid the excesses of desire, anger, frustration, etc. ... but don't expect to be perfect either.

(Sorry, imperfectly ran a bit long)

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

I know that Enlightenment is possible and before encountering Zen, I thought that I need to put all my effort into practice because I don't know when I will die. Inspired by Pema Chodron "No time to loose" I felt the sense of urgency, because I had such a wonderful life so far, but I ve been useless since I haven't done anything truly good, and the world we live in needs transformation. Zen and sitting Shikantaza taught me that this urgency is what is right in front of me, and not my ideas of how "saving the world" should be. That sort of mindfulness helped me to change the way I relate to situations and people and in my mum's case I encouraged her to quit smoking, which she did, after 50 years of inhaling about 40 cigarettes a day. Whereas previously if I went on a rant about it she would suggest to burry her after death with a pack of cigarettes so that she has something to do in hell. Just sitting in "good for nothing" zazen, nothing to achieve nothing to expect, yet so many possibilities present.

Sorry, felt the need to express more than 3 sentences. (I don't know anyone who's interested in Buddhism, so you folks are the ones)
Gassho
Sat

[Geika]

I remember a video Taigu made long ago about form while sitting, and I remember him saying something like, "Just let your eyes be around." I think he was emphasizing that your eyes should be naturally and gently open, without putting too much effort or strain into where you are looking, or at what degree, or how open the lids are. This really helped me at that point in time because I was far to conscious of my eyes.

Gassho
Sat today, lah

[Bion]

I remember a video Taigu made long ago about form while sitting, and I remember him saying something like, "Just let your eyes be around." I think he was emphasizing that your eyes should be naturally and gently open, without putting too much effort or strain into where you are looking, or at what degree, or how open the lids are. This really helped me at that point in time because I was far to conscious of my eyes.

Gassho
Sat today, lah

Eyes are a funny business. When I started sitting facing the wall in my home zendo, I “saw” the mouth of a Buddha in the pattern of the painting on it. It’s been years and I can find that Buddha mouth in a second when I sit in that spot.

SatToday lah

[Doshin]

I use to make great effort to keep my eyes open. Switched to an earlier sitting and it’s been much easier to do. My attempt at Zen humor though it’s true

Doshin
St

[Geika]

Eyes are a funny business. When I started sitting facing the wall in my home zendo, I “saw” the mouth of a Buddha in the pattern of the painting on it. It’s been years and I can find that Buddha mouth in a second when I sit in that spot.

SatToday lah

I know what you mean, and I experience this too; I think most people do, but I'm not sure. I like to change up the places and postures in which I sit to avoid looking for these regular shapes and patterns, or hearing distracting sounds-- I like to be ready to sit anywhere. Other times, I just sit with the weird visions and let them be, even if I can't seem to stop finding them.

Gassho
Sat today, lah

[Bion]

I know what you mean, and I experience this too; I think most people do, but I'm not sure. I like to change up the places and postures in which I sit to avoid looking for these regular shapes and patterns, or hearing distracting sounds-- I like to be ready to sit anywhere. Other times, I just sit with the weird visions and let them be, even if I can't seem to stop finding them.

Gassho
Sat today, lah

I do the en opposite and I sit knowing my eyes could find the shape but though interested, I can simply choose not to. The same way I sit through the most terrible itches at time and I can simply choose to let the itch be even though I could scratch it. Phenomena

SatToday lah

[Jundo]

I know that Enlightenment is possible and before encountering Zen, I thought that I need to put all my effort into practice because I don't know when I will die. Inspired by Pema Chodron "No time to loose" I felt the sense of urgency, because I had such a wonderful life so far, but I ve been useless since I haven't done anything truly good, and the world we live in needs transformation. Zen and sitting Shikantaza taught me that this urgency is what is right in front of me, and not my ideas of how "saving the world" should be.

Yes. Lovely story about your mum and smoking.

As you have probably figured out by now, in Soto Zen, we tend not to see "Enlightenment" as something one "gets before we die," but rather an ongoing lived embodiment. Yes, we have a timeless moment or moments of deep insight into the "Absolute," but that is only one aspect we say. It is not a "get it once, and one is done" thing. Maybe more vital is how we live in each act, word and thought during life. Thus, "Enlightenment" actually is a lot like quitting smoking: We may realizing the "Great Non-Smoking Buddha" that sweeps in all reality ... but here on earth, day by day, it is just moment by moment of either choosing to not take a cigarette or falling off the wagon and lighting up a Marlboro.

You know the old joke about smoking, that "Quitting is easy, I have done it 1000 time?"

Well, "Enlightenment is easy, I have done it 10,000 times! ".

Sorry, long winded here.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Tomás ESP]

Yes. Lovely story about your mum and smoking.

As you have probably figured out by now, in Soto Zen, we tend not to see "Enlightenment" as something one "gets before we die," but rather an ongoing lived embodiment. Yes, we have a timeless moment or moments of deep insight into the "Absolute," but that is only one aspect we say. It is not a "get it once, and one is done" thing. Maybe more vital is how we live in each act, word and thought during life. Thus, "Enlightenment" actually is a lot like quitting smoking: We may realizing the "Great Non-Smoking Buddha" that sweeps in all reality ... but here on earth, day by day, it is just moment by moment of either choosing to not take a cigarette or falling off the wagon and lighting up a Marlboro.

You know the old joke about smoking, that "Quitting is easy, I have done it 1000 time?"

Well, "Enlightenment is easy, I have done it 10,000 times! ".

Sorry, long winded here.

Gassho, J

STLah

That is a most helpful example Jundo, thank you. I must admit that I have been obsessed with the idea of transcending suffering permanently for some years now. But the more I search for it, the more I suffer. When I sit Shikantaza and I just let it all be as it is, even the discomfort, then peace arises. And if it doesn't, I also feel at peace with whatever comes. It might not be enlightenment, but it is revolutionary to the way I see practice and how I live life. What a treasure.

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

[Horin]

That is a most helpful example Jundo, thank you. I must admit that I have been obsessed with the idea of transcending suffering permanently for some years now. But the more I search for it, the more I suffer. When I sit Shikantaza and I just let it all be as it is, even the discomfort, then peace arises. And if it doesn't, I also feel at peace with whatever comes. It might not be enlightenment, but it is revolutionary to the way I see practice and how I live life. What a treasure.

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

Very nice. I think that the term enlightenment is something that may brings up all kinds of strange ideas. At least it did for me. So I thought about some state that is archived through practice and will las forever.. like a state of total clarity and bliss for the rest of my life that will liberate me from all dukkha. But I think more adequate may be the term awakening... Awakening to what? I think it's just to awaken to the reality just as it is, and look through the coloring of our delusional judgements, ideas, opinions, likes and dislikes...to awaken from the poisons of mind for this single moment. And we may fall into the old views the next moment, into Samsara.. I think that is what Dogen taught with practice-awakening or practice-realization. We can only now wake up from delusion,... And we can also fall back into Samsara. And so we keep practicing awakening on and off the Zafu and may be able to disentangle more and more from the habitual judgements, thinking, opinions, ideas, shoulds, and shouldn'ts... also in the daily life and make this way our life beyond the formal practice to some kind of practice.

At least my idea on that.

Sorry for violating the three sentence rule so badly

Gassho,

Horin

Stlah

Enviado desde mi PLK-L01 mediante Tapatalk

[Jundo]

That is a most helpful example Jundo, thank you. I must admit that I have been obsessed with the idea of transcending suffering permanently for some years now. But the more I search for it, the more I suffer. When I sit Shikantaza and I just let it all be as it is, even the discomfort, then peace arises. And if it doesn't, I also feel at peace with whatever comes. It might not be enlightenment, but it is revolutionary to the way I see practice and how I live life. What a treasure.

Very nice. I think that the term enlightenment is something that may brings up all kinds of strange ideas. At least it did for me. So I thought about some state that is archived through practice and will las forever.. like a state of total clarity and bliss for the rest of my life that will liberate me from all dukkha. But I think more adequate may be the term awakening... Awakening to what? I think it's just to awaken to the reality just as it is, and look through the coloring of our delusional judgements, ideas, opinions, likes and dislikes...to awaken from the poisons of mind for this single moment. And we may fall into the old views the next moment, into Samsara.. I think that is what Dogen taught with practice-awakening or practice-realization. We can only now wake up from delusion,... And we can also fall back into Samsara. And so we keep practicing awakening on and off the Zafu and may be able to disentangle more and more from the habitual judgements, thinking, opinions, ideas, shoulds, and shouldn'ts... also in the daily life and make this way our life beyond the formal practice to some kind of practice.