prolonged right leg numbness after zazenkai

[shikantazen]

Today sat a more intense zazenkai (I usually do 40 min for max of 3 consecutive sittings (before break) but this one is 50 min for max of 5 consecutive) and my right leg became numb after 5th consecutive sitting. Kinhin only slightly reduced numbness, so I ended the retreat but and the numbness is still there even after 7 hours. Any tips?

Gassho,
Sam
ST

[Kyoshin]

If you've been numb for 7 hours, you need to see a doctor. Even severe numbness should go away in a few minutes once you get up and start moving.

Gassho
Kyōshin
Satlah

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

[Tai Shi]

I can easily sit 20 minutes. I sit with mind focused on robe verse, then my mind glides easily to the First stanza of Serenity Prayer which is universal, much that follows this stanza is Christian and I perfect the prayer by reciting it at a level which can apply to Buddhism as well as many religions. If you like you can leave out the word God. “Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, wisdom to know the difference.” This is a very humbling stanza. I have had very little humility in my life, so it is good that I say those verse to myself. Then I count my breaths in out, until I slip into Shikantaza; then it is my breath for 20 minutes or so. I usually do not count time but emerge quietly and naturally after 20 minutes or so. Time has felt like nothing.
Gassho
sat / lah
Tai Sho


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sekiyuu]

Notwithstanding what Kyoshin says, feel free to experiment with any and all positions until you find one that really works, including a using seiza bench or chair.

I used to sit in a kind of lazy-half-lotus that caused some numbness in the top leg. After long sits it just became painful, so I changed to a proper half-lotus, but it caused knee pain, so I now I sit Burmese.

Gassho,
Kenny
Sat Today

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

If you've been numb for 7 hours, you need to see a doctor. Even severe numbness should go away in a few minutes once you get up and start moving.

Gassho
Kyōshin
Satlah

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

I agree, see a doctor! That is unusual. The "numbness" or "pins and needles" is from pressure on the sciatic nerve, in my understanding. It should not last that long.

https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/...bness-causes#1

I avoid it by slightly shifting my weight from the left to right, right to left hip during a long sitting, taking the pressure off the nerve on each side, plus not sitting too far back on the zafu and loose pants. If this is a problem, consider a seiza bench or another alternative posture.

Let us know what the doctor says. I have not heard of a report like this of lasting numbness that I can recall.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Jundo]

I cannot go into details because of confidentiality, but I have twice had a case where someone developed an unusual pain and discovered a previously unknown condition when he went to see the doctor, explaining some other symptoms he was having in life in one case, and actually saving their life in one case (not to say that anything here is that dangerous!)

If anything rare and unusual happens, IT MUST BE CHECKED OUT!

See the doctor, please let me know what he says.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Tai Shi]

I must sit in a strait back chair because I have titanium hinged knees. I am very happy I can finally sit in a strait back chair.
Gassho
sat lah
Tai Shi


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Tai Shi]

Because of my arthritis it has taken me more than seven years if you count meditation but I know that means only six years to sit.
Gassho
sat lah
Tai Shi


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[shikantazen]

I just met with a doctor on video call appointment. He took a look at the leg. He said this is due to "peroneal nerve" pinching or damage. I think it is the nerve behind the knee. My numbness and tingling is only from knee down to foot. more intense in the foot. He said this caused a complication called "foot drop" (difficulty lifting the front foot) and I notice it is making it difficult to walk down the stairs.

He said there is no treatment in western medicine and he hopes it will heal in a week. I asked what's the worst case healing time and he said if it doesn't heal quick then it can take very long as the nerve grows only 1mm each year. He suggested to try acupuncture. He said even if this heals, I am more prone to permanently damage this nerve in the future when I sit zazen. I asked about sitting zazen in a chair and he said that shouldn't affect this nerve

I am devastated with this, especially that I can't sit zazen normally again. I started sitting in 2013 and hurt my back in 2016 as I didn't know I have to alternate half lotus leg position. I had to stop sitting for few years. I resumed 2 years back and things are going great and now this. I have no interests in life. Only enlightenment. I practiced 9 years of different practices (mantra meditation) with no progress and frustrated and came to zen. This was my only hope and today's news was a big blow. I usually don't cry and i am in tears writing this. After a hard day's of zazenkai, I get this

Gassho,
Sam,
ST

[Jundo]

Oh, well, Sam ...

First, when you get past this Koan you will be enlightened ...

I am devastated with this, especially that I can't sit zazen normally again. ... I have no interests in life. Only enlightenment. I practiced 9 years of different practices (mantra meditation) with no progress and frustrated and came to zen. This was my only hope and today's news was a big blow. I usually don't cry and i am in tears writing this. ...

All zazen is "normal" when the mind drops all divisions, measures and preferences of "normal" vs. "not normal," good and bad. Please drop ideas of "progress" and all frustration from heart. Your "peroneal nerve" is a great teacher! There are no blows, there is no one right posture that is key. What are you looking for that is not right where one sits all along?

Now you need to cut back, change posture. Here is my prescription for now, until this is better, I insist.

November 15-16th Treeleaf Weekly Zazenkai: Lion's Pose with the Differently Abled
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...ferently-Abled

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Jundo]

Here, Sam, some teachings posted elsewhere today, from the ancient Zen poem, Xin Xin Ming (Inscription on Trust in Mind), for you ...

The Great Way is not difficult
for those who have no preferences.
When love [likes] and hate [dislikes] are both absent
everything becomes clear and undisguised.
Make a hairbreadth difference, and Heaven and Earth are set apart;

...

If you wish to see the truth
then hold no opinions for or against anything.
To set up what you like against what you dislike
is the disease of the mind.

...

The Way is perfect like vast space
where nothing is lacking and nothing is in excess.
Indeed, it is due to our choosing to accept or reject
that we do not see the true nature of things.
Be serene in the Oneness [wholeness] of things
and such erroneous views will disappear by themselves.

...

When the mind exists undisturbed in the Way,
nothing in the world can offend,
and when a thing can no longer offend,
it ceases to exist in the old way.

...

The burdensome practice of judging
brings annoyance and weariness.
What benefit can be derived
from distinctions and separations?

...

If you wish to move in the One Way
do not dislike even the world of senses and ideas.
Indeed, to accept them fully
is identical with true Enlightenment.

...

The wise man strives to no goals
but the foolish man fetters himself.

...

If the mind makes no discriminations,
the ten thousand things
are as they are, of single essence.

...

To understand the mystery of this One-essence
is to be released from all entanglements.

https://terebess.hu/english/hsin.html

Sit as that!

Gassho, J

STLah

PS - Were you sitting full lotus? Half? Burmese? Something else?

[shikantazen]

Thanks Jundo. I am sitting burmese. Interestingly the doc himself is a vipassana practitioner who did zen in his initial days too. He was surprised this happened in burmese. The official term for my damage is peroneal neruopathy.

Gassho,
Sam
ST

[Kyoshin]

I wonder if a seiza bench would be a good solution. It might relieve pressure on the nerve (ask the doctor first!). Because they're designed to help position your hips and back correctly, I find them easier on my body than a regular chair.
Gassho
Kyōshin
Satlah

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

[Onka]

You'll be OK Sam even if you feel ovewhelmed at the moment. Personally I couldn't care less about enlightenment, I just want to be at peace with whatever life throws at me moment to moment.
Gassho
Onka
Sat

[Inshin]

Metta to you.
May you be well.
May you realise the Way.

Gassho,
Sat

[Inshin]

You'll be OK Sam even if you feel ovewhelmed at the moment. Personally I couldn't care less about enlightenment, I just want to be at peace with whatever life throws at me moment to moment.
Gassho
Onka
Sat

[Ryumon]

I am devastated with this, especially that I can't sit zazen normally again. I started sitting in 2013 and hurt my back in 2016 as I didn't know I have to alternate half lotus leg position. I had to stop sitting for few years. I resumed 2 years back and things are going great and now this. I have no interests in life. Only enlightenment. I practiced 9 years of different practices (mantra meditation) with no progress and frustrated and came to zen. This was my only hope and today's news was a big blow. I usually don't cry and i am in tears writing this. After a hard day's of zazenkai, I get this

I can't sit on a cushion; I sit on a stool. It's the same, just a bit higher off the ground.

Gassho,

Kirk

sat

[Juki]

Sam, do not use a seiza bench or sit in seiza with a cushion or without a cushion. Do not sit in seiza at all. In Yoga, the seiza position is called "Hero's Pose," and there is a wealth of medical evidence linking it to peroneal neuropathy. The medical evidence also links peroneal neuropathy to cross-legged sitting. Sitting in seiza or doing anything that involves compression of the knee joint will only aggravate the condition. Our knees are compressed to varying degrees sitting cross-legged, but they are fully compressed in seiza, so that would be the worst possible position for you.

Listen to your doctor as to your options. Sit in a chair. As a Yoga teacher, I would also recommend seeking out a qualified teacher of Yin Yoga, explaining the problem and getting some stretches for release of the muscles surrounding the pinched area. Also do hip stretches. Tightness in the hips results in knee issues.

Don't give up.

Gassho,
Juki

Sat today and lah
Apology for going over 3 sentences

[Meitou]

Sam, do not use a seiza bench or sit in seiza with a cushion or without a cushion. Do not sit in seiza at all. In Yoga, the seiza position is called "Hero's Pose," and there is a wealth of medical evidence linking it to peroneal neuropathy. The medical evidence also links it to cross-legged sitting. Sitting in seiza or doing anything that involves compression of the knee joint will only aggravate the condition. Our knees are compressed to varying degrees sitting cross-legged, but they are fully compressed in seiza, so that would be the worst possible position for you.

Listen to your doctor as to your options. Sit in a chair. As a Yoga teacher, I would also recommend seeking out a qualified teacher of Yin Yoga, explaining the problem and getting some stretches for release of the muscles surrounding the pinched area. Also do hip stretches. Tightness in the hips results in knee issues.

Don't give up.

Gassho,
Juki

Sat today and lah
Apology for going over 3 sentences

This is such good advice. Sam all I can offer is to say that however you sit, whatever you sit on, in etc, in no way diminishes your practice, your dedication and your heartfelt love for the Dharma. Change, however distressing it is, is all part of our relative reality and our human condition. You've suffered setbacks in the past and overcome them, you'll overcome this. Be kind and understanding with yourself, we are all here sitting with and for you.
Gassho and Big Hugs
Meitou
Sattoday lah

[Tairin]

Juki, That is very interesting information about seiza. My wife was discouraged because she couldn’t sit on a zafu with me. I sit Burmese. I made her a seiza bench but after a while she started to say it was uncomfortable for her. She now often reclines on the bed instead.

Sam, Metta for you but as you hopefully know now from your years here. Sitting is sitting regardless of the pose.

Pardon my extra sentences


Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Kokuu]

Do not sit in seiza at all. In Yoga, the seiza position is called "Hero's Pose," and there is a wealth of medical evidence linking it to peroneal neuropathy. The medical evidence also links it to cross-legged sitting. Sitting in seiza or doing anything that involves compression of the knee joint will only aggravate the condition. Our knees are compressed to varying degrees sitting cross-legged, but they are fully compressed in seiza, so that would be the worst possible position for you.

Thank you, Juki, that is really helpful to know.

Sam, I am sorry you have injured yourself sitting. Although it seems that 'proper' Zazen is done in a cross-legged posture on the cushion, many of us practice in other ways and consider it just as fully Shikantaza as traditional sitting styles.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Juki]

Juki, That is very interesting information about seiza. My wife was discouraged because she couldn’t sit on a zafu with me. I sit Burmese. I made her a seiza bench but after a while she started to say it was uncomfortable for her. She now often reclines on the bed instead.

Sam, Metta for you but as you hopefully know now from your years here. Sitting is sitting regardless of the pose.

Pardon my extra sentences


Tairin
Sat today and lah

I am not advising that no one should ever sit seiza, I'm only advising Sam due to the circumstances of his injury. For people without knee issues or a nerve injury,, seiza is fine. In Yoga, we say "everybody is different," by which we literally mean every BODY is different. A pose that works for most people may need to be modified for others. We are all slightly different structurally, and each of our bodies carries the baggage of our unique life experiences. Sitting at desks has been unbelievably awful for our species, as we are hunched over in a forward folded position a good chunk of the day. We then compound that problem by spending our leisure time in poor posture watching television or staring at our phones.

Every BODY is different. Listen to your body. It will give you warning signs. I'm 62 years old and I can still sit easily in full lotus, although I generally choose to sit Burmese. I also know men in their early thirties who cannot get up off the floor easily from a seated position.

Never beat yourself up because of your physical limitations. But, if you can improve a physical condition, try. I will tell anyone who will listen that Yoga is the fountain of youth.

Gassho,
Juki
Sat today and lah

[Ryumon]

I think this thread is a good reminder that "no pain, no gain" is not the right way to sit zazen. I have read many stories of how people have "sat with their pain" which, to me, as someone with occasional serious back pain, is simply dangerous. (I'm not talking about "sitting with your pain" when the pain is not caused by zazen, of course...)

Gassho,

Kirk

sat

[shikantazen]

Thank you all for the encouragement. Thank you Juki about the useful warning on Seiza. I will avoid any kind of floor sitting. I used to hate chair sitting but will have to get used to it.

They say zazen physical posture aligns the body while "bringing the mind back" aligns the mind. Sitting in a chair might slow down the body alignment and that's my worry. It is a big hit for my practice. Anyway I don't have an option other than to do my best given my situation.

I wish zazen didn't have the body / posture component and we could simply sit with back support cushion and bring the mind back. The posture component is the one that's causing all the trouble (hurting back, knees, legs).

Gassho,
Sam
ST

[Meitou]

I don't want to hijack this thread, but Juki if you could point us to some specific yoga stretches and hip openers, I'm sure others would also be interested and grateful. I'm always on the lookout for any kind of movement that helps with sciatica.

Gassho
Meitou
sattoday lah

[Jundo]

They say zazen physical posture aligns the body while "bringing the mind back" aligns the mind. Sitting in a chair might slow down the body alignment and that's my worry. It is a big hit for my practice. Anyway I don't have an option other than to do my best given my situation.

Old wives tale, or at least, very exaggerated.

The basic truth is that a balanced, comfortable, stable posture is conducive to extended comfortable sitting and some balance and stability of mind, BUT don't become obsessive or compulsive about this idea. Some Japanese and other teachers (e.g., Issho Fujita does this quite a bit, and Nishijima Roshi did a little bit) have some ideas based on some unscientific ideas within Asian medicine about energy flows, spine alignment and such that are just not something to overdo or think of as the "key" to Zazen.

Bottom line: find a way of sitting that feels reasonably balanced, comfortable, stable ... chair is excellent ... adjust it from time to time as needed during a sitting (like my switch from putting my weight left to right or right to left I mentioned) ... and then FORGET ABOUT the body, drop it from mind as a concern, and JUST SIT!

(a little long, apologies)

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Juki]

I don't want to hijack this thread, but Juki if you could point us to some specific yoga stretches and hip openers, I'm sure others would also be interested and grateful. I'm always on the lookout for any kind of movement that helps with sciatica.

Gassho
Meitou
sattoday lah

I'm wondering if there is a way to do a Treeleaf Yoga class like the Zazenkai is done. My personal practice is Ashtanga and Power Flow, both of which are quite brutal. But, I can teach Yin Yoga, which focuses on the hips, hamstrings, shoulders and back. It's a static practice. No movement, just getting into a pose and holding it for 3 to 5 minutes per pose. People would need to have a couple of Yoga blocks and a strap, but that stuff can be purchased for about 20 bucks or less. Yin is very gentle and accessible to all age groups, as long as you can get yourself off the floor once you sit down. If I do 3 or 4 of these, they could be recorded and archived like the weekly Zazenkai and people could use them whenever. They would need to be roughly 1 hour.

People could also attend live, and if it catches on, we could continue indefinitely. Just an idea.

The only problem for me is that I have no laptop or internet service other than my phone. But I have Zoom on my phone so it might work.

Apologies for going long.

Gassho,
Juki
Sat today and lah

[Meitou]

I'd be up for this - I can just about get myself up from the floor, although not a pretty or graceful sight I've had some experience of Hatha Yoga, not for a few years now, but I feel I could still do this. Perhaps this thread could be split, to see if there are other takers?

Gassho
Meitou
sattoday lah

[Seikan]

I'm wondering if there is a way to do a Treeleaf Yoga class like the Zazenkai is done. My personal practice is Ashtanga and Power Flow, both of which are quite brutal. But, I can teach Yin Yoga, which focuses on the hips, hamstrings, shoulders and back. It's a static practice. No movement, just getting into a pose and holding it for 3 to 5 minutes per pose. People would need to have a couple of Yoga blocks and a strap, but that stuff can be purchased for about 20 bucks or less. Yin is very gentle and accessible to all age groups, as long as you can get yourself off the floor once you sit down. If I do 3 or 4 of these, they could be recorded and archived like the weekly Zazenkai and people could use them whenever. They would need to be roughly 1 hour.

People could also attend live, and if it catches on, we could continue indefinitely. Just an idea.

The only problem for me is that I have no laptop or internet service other than my phone. But I have Zoom on my phone so it might work.

Apologies for going long.

Gassho,
Juki
Sat today and lah

Juki,

I would be very interested as well. I practice a vinyasa style of yoga these days, so balancing that with a Yin practice would be very welcome.

Count me in if you move forward with this idea.

Gassho,
Rob

-stlah-

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

I'm wondering if there is a way to do a Treeleaf Yoga class like the Zazenkai is done. My personal practice is Ashtanga and Power Flow, both of which are quite brutal. But, I can teach Yin Yoga, which focuses on the hips, hamstrings, shoulders and back. It's a static practice. No movement, just getting into a pose and holding it for 3 to 5 minutes per pose. People would need to have a couple of Yoga blocks and a strap, but that stuff can be purchased for about 20 bucks or less. Yin is very gentle and accessible to all age groups, as long as you can get yourself off the floor once you sit down. If I do 3 or 4 of these, they could be recorded and archived like the weekly Zazenkai and people could use them whenever. They would need to be roughly 1 hour.

People could also attend live, and if it catches on, we could continue indefinitely. Just an idea.

The only problem for me is that I have no laptop or internet service other than my phone. But I have Zoom on my phone so it might work.

Apologies for going long.

Gassho,
Juki
Sat today and lah

In principle, I would love to do so, but we looked at this once (Shoka is also a yoga teacher specializing in folks with age and body restrictions), and it was too concerning that people might overdo or do incorrectly, and that there would be injuries working at a distance and we could not properly supervise the lesson in the same way as a yoga studio. Even in this thread you can see the rare, rare possibility of someone having an unusual health effect from just sitting with crossed legs too much. I can only imagine what "downward dog" might do to someone trying it at home the wrong way!

But let me bring Shoka into this conversation and see what she thinks. Otherwise, it is a lovely idea, and maybe what you propose is different. No "downward dog."

(Sorry, a bit long)

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[shikantazen]

Old wives tale, or at least, very exaggerated.

Bottom line: find a way of sitting that feels reasonably balanced, comfortable, stable ... chair is excellent ...

Thank you Jundo. What do you think about sitting straight but with back support (say on a sofa) and legs folded (regular, not burmese and not lotus)? How important is sitting without a back support to the practice?

Gassho,
Sam
ST

[Jundo]

Thank you Jundo. What do you think about sitting straight but with back support (say on a sofa) and legs folded (regular, not burmese and not lotus)? How important is sitting without a back support to the practice?

Gassho,
Sam
ST

I say, first, talk to your doctor again and see what he thinks.

Second, I recommend this book which is about finding the balanced, stable, comfortable posture(s) right for your bodily needs (more than one, as the body changes even during the same day). He is mostly about cross legged sitting, but the book also covers chairs ...

Book Recommendation: - THE POSTURE OF MEDITATION
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...ohnson+posture

Third, please give up being overly concerned with "correct" posture. Posture is a good way to sit, balanced, comfortable and stable ... and then FORGET ABOUT IT! It is not the "key" to anything.

Fourth, if sitting in a chair, a soft seat like a sofa is usually not recommended (unless there is real medical need), and a firmer chair is usually the way. Some folks put the Zafu lightly behind the back like this, others do so without the Zafu, do whichever is best for you.




And that's it. Don't worry too much about it. It is like adjusting the driver's seat in the car for a long drive ... set it back where up like, set the degree of uprightness, adjust the mirror and the seatbelt ... and then just drive. You don't keep moving the seat and redoing the seatbelt while driving, do you? Is the proper seat position the secret to good driving?

(ran long, sorry. Please forget about it.)

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[shikantazen]

Thanks Jundo, I also found this: https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng...hair_zazen.pdf

Gassho,
Sam
ST

[Tai Shi]

When I have my Lidocaine pain patches in place, a straight back chair is possible, and this is allowable because of doctors.
Gassho
sat / lah
Tai Shi


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

Thanks Jundo, I also found this: https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng...hair_zazen.pdf

Gassho,
Sam
ST

Yes, but don't get too attached to doing it "exactly" right by the instructions. Just relax, stable, balanced, comfortable way. The instructions are not tailored for your specific body. My rule of thumb is "if it feels comfortable and balanced, it probably is comfortable and balanced and a good way to sit."

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Shoka]

I'm wondering if there is a way to do a Treeleaf Yoga class like the Zazenkai is done. My personal practice is Ashtanga and Power Flow, both of which are quite brutal. But, I can teach Yin Yoga, which focuses on the hips, hamstrings, shoulders and back. It's a static practice. No movement, just getting into a pose and holding it for 3 to 5 minutes per pose. People would need to have a couple of Yoga blocks and a strap, but that stuff can be purchased for about 20 bucks or less. Yin is very gentle and accessible to all age groups, as long as you can get yourself off the floor once you sit down. If I do 3 or 4 of these, they could be recorded and archived like the weekly Zazenkai and people could use them whenever. They would need to be roughly 1 hour.

People could also attend live, and if it catches on, we could continue indefinitely. Just an idea.

The only problem for me is that I have no laptop or internet service other than my phone. But I have Zoom on my phone so it might work.

Apologies for going long.

Gassho,
Juki
Sat today and lah

Juki,

It's a lovely idea, the main concern for doing it at Treeleaf is that our membership's accessibility runs such a huge gambit. We have a membership pool that span from people who run marathons to those who are bedridden. Being inclusive for all those variations is a large undertaking.

I happen to love yin yoga, and it was the primary type of yoga I practiced for years. As you said it can be very accessible because it doesn't rely on strength, but it can require a lot of modifications and use of props for bodies which have greater degrees of flexibility. That is actually the type of yoga that I love to teach.

How about we chat over PM and see if there is something that might work for the sangha?

Gassho,
Shoka
sat

[Meitou]

It actually sounds an impossible undertaking Shoka. I'll leave you to discuss it, but if all else fails, links to reputable vids on YouTube would be just as useful imo.
Gassho
Meitou
Sattoday

[Seishin]

Some interesting observations in that we are all different. Being a short legged westerner I cannot sit full or half lotus and I get numb sitting Burmese. So I have sat a variant of seiza for nearly 1500 consequential days. Full traditional sieza without a cushion was something we did in my martial arts days, so maybe I am used to it but I sit a variant of what is normally suggested. I sit with the zafu flat in its normal orientation, with my legs either side. I have an oversized zafu that takes the pressure of the knees but also have the zafu a little more forward than is normally prescribed. This works for me that is me. If I put the zafu on its edge as is normally recommended for sitting seiza, within few minutes both legs will be numb due to compression of the sciatic nerves. This works for me and may work for others, so I present it just as another option.

Sat lah

[Gareth]

Somehow I t’s the reverse for me, I feel more pressure on the knees if the zafu is flat rather than on its edge.

I have started to do the following exercises for the lotus position, though I am not optimistic about being able to do even a 1/2 lotus:



Gassho,
Gareth
Sat

[Juki]

Juki,

It's a lovely idea, the main concern for doing it at Treeleaf is that our membership's accessibility runs such a huge gambit. We have a membership pool that span from people who run marathons to those who are bedridden. Being inclusive for all those variations is a large undertaking.

I happen to love yin yoga, and it was the primary type of yoga I practiced for years. As you said it can be very accessible because it doesn't rely on strength, but it can require a lot of modifications and use of props for bodies which have greater degrees of flexibility. That is actually the type of yoga that I love to teach.

How about we chat over PM and see if there is something that might work for the sangha?

Gassho,
Shoka
sat

I sent you a message, Shoka. I agree this may be problematic.

Gassho,
Juki

Sat today and lah

[Onka]

I think Yoga is a terrific and beneficial practice but without a really well qualified teacher right there with you to help with alignment and offer suggestions to help facilitate individual limitations I think the risks are too great. Years ago my partner and I could afford to go to a good Yoga studio where the teacher was able to instuct my partner what poses risked exacerbating her MS and what poses I needed to sit out because of my spinal stuff. I'm glad our Sangha has Shoka and Juki but I'd hate for any other member to jump into Yoga without seeing someone like Shoka or Juki IRL. Apologies for an extra sentence but I'm thankful to Juki for sharing their wisdom with Sam about alternative sitting positions.
Gassho
Onka
Sat

[Juki]

I think Yoga is a terrific and beneficial practice but without a really well qualified teacher right there with you to help with alignment and offer suggestions to help facilitate individual limitations I think the risks are too great. Years ago my partner and I could afford to go to a good Yoga studio where the teacher was able to instuct my partner what poses risked exacerbating her MS and what poses I needed to sit out because of my spinal stuff. I'm glad our Sangha has Shoka and Juki but I'd hate for any other member to jump into Yoga without seeing someone like Shoka or Juki IRL. Apologies for an extra sentence but I'm thankful to Juki for sharing their wisdom with Sam about alternative sitting positions.
Gassho
Onka
Sat

This is essentially what I advised Shoka. I was trained in a lineage where the teacher briefly demonstrates what a pose looks like, and then walks around the room giving verbal cues and checking alignment and form. That's essentially impossible online, and with the Sangha all being at different levels of mobility, it seems a stretch (no Yoga pun intended) to think this would work. It was wishful thinking on my part. The last thing I would ever want to do as a Yoga teacher or a Buddhist is to be responsible for injuring someone.

Apologies for going long.

Gassho,
Juki
Sat today and lah

[Ryumon]

Old wives tale, or at least, very exaggerated.

The basic truth is that a balanced, comfortable, stable posture is conducive to extended comfortable sitting and some balance and stability of mind, BUT don't become obsessive or compulsive about this idea. Some Japanese and other teachers (e.g., Issho Fujita does this quite a bit, and Nishijima Roshi did a little bit) have some ideas based on some unscientific ideas within Asian medicine about energy flows, spine alignment and such that are just not something to overdo or think of as the "key" to Zazen.

I would argue that it does have some validity. I've long been a student of the Alexander Technique, which is about finding the optimal "use" of the body. I know that when my head, neck, and spine are aligned without undue stress, it does lead to a more peaceful mind. I'm struck by the two photos above of people sitting in chairs. The person on the top looks well aligned, and not stressed at all; the man at the bottom is holding his head back, which leads to a lot of tension in the neck. There are natural curves in both the back and the neck, and the man at the bottom looks like he's flattened everything, in a very poor "use" of his body.

My 2 pence.

Gassho,

Kirk

just sat on a stool...

[Meitou]

This is essentially what I advised Shoka. I was trained in a lineage where the teacher briefly demonstrates what a pose looks like, and then walks around the room giving verbal cues and checking alignment and form. That's essentially impossible online, and with the Sangha all being at different levels of mobility, it seems a stretch (no Yoga pun intended) to think this would work. It was wishful thinking on my part. The last thing I would ever want to do as a Yoga teacher or a Buddhist is to be responsible for injuring someone.

Apologies for going long.

Gassho,
Juki
Sat today and lah

It was a great idea however, and I thank you for suggesting it. Yoga classes irl don't cater to people of all abilities in one class and I agree that would not be possible here. I'd never heard of yin yoga though and I'm starting to look through YouTube vids at poses that I think will benefit me.
Gassho
Meitou
Sattoday lah

[Onka]

It was a great idea however, and I thank you for suggesting it. Yoga classes irl don't cater to people of all abilities in one class and I agree that would not be possible here. I'd never heard of yin yoga though and I'm starting to look through YouTube vids at poses that I think will benefit me.
Gassho
Meitou
Sattoday lah

Respectfully Meitou an IRL Yoga studio with proper qualified teachers will absolutely cater for those with health challenges in a way Juki describes. Unfortunately a lot of gyms say they do Yoga classes as part of a larger membership but the person teaching often has little to no Yoga qualifications. May I suggest that you don't give up if an IRL studio is what you would benefit from attending, just look for lineage like Juki has mentioned - a bit like finding a good Zen Buddhism teacher, you've got to sort the wheat from the chaff.
Gassho
Onka
Sat

[Jundo]

Full traditional sieza without a cushion was something we did in my martial arts days, so maybe I am used to it but I sit a variant of what is normally suggested. I sit with the zafu flat in its normal orientation, with my legs either side.

Just a footnote: Traditional Seiza in Japan is very different from Seiza in the west, and involves sitting directly on the heels without any bench or support (I start to sweat after about 20 minutes, as do many younger Japanese who are no longer used to it):



That is --NOT-- recommended for Zazen (especially for Sam without his doctor!), although Zen monks are expected to sit such way for various ceremonies and for long periods!



Many people in the west sit their modified Seiza with either a wooden bench or a sideways Zafu.



Gassho, J

STLah

[Onkai]

Somehow I t’s the reverse for me, I feel more pressure on the knees if the zafu is flat rather than on its edge.

I have started to do the following exercises for the lotus position, though I am not optimistic about being able to do even a 1/2 lotus:



Gassho,
Gareth
Sat

Thank you for that video. I've been having pain in my hip joints and those stretches targeted the painful areas and felt really good.

Gassho,
Onkai
Sat/lah

[Jundo]

Thank you for that video. I've been having pain in my hip joints and those stretches targeted the painful areas and felt really good.

Gassho,
Onkai
Sat/lah

Management at Treeleaf cannot officially endorse or comment on that video in any way, good or bad!

Become a human pretzel at your own risk!

I do know a heck of a lot of older Zen priests, Japanese and western, who have blown out their knees from too many years of Lotus. The great Dai-En Bennage Roshi, for example ...



Gassho, J

STLah

[Onkai]

Management at Treeleaf cannot officially endorse or comment on that video in any way, good or bad!

Become a human pretzel at your own risk!

I do know a heck of a lot of older Zen priests, Japanese and western, who have blown out their knees from too many years of Lotus. The great Dai-En Bennage Roshi, for example ...



Gassho, J

STLah

Thank you for the warning. I usually sit half lotus or quarter lotus. My hip joints hurt throughout the day (not when sitting) but my knees feel fine.

Gassho,
Onkai
Sat/lah

[Meitou]

Respectfully Meitou an IRL Yoga studio with proper qualified teachers will absolutely cater for those with health challenges in a way Juki describes. Unfortunately a lot of gyms say they do Yoga classes as part of a larger membership but the person teaching often has little to no Yoga qualifications. May I suggest that you don't give up if an IRL studio is what you would benefit from attending, just look for lineage like Juki has mentioned - a bit like finding a good Zen Buddhism teacher, you've got to sort the wheat from the chaff.
Gassho
Onka
Sat

Our two yoga groups here (small town) cater for all abilities and levels of fitness but not in the same class, but in different classes over the span of a week, sorry not to make that clear. I know both teachers personally, they are both excellent, highly qualified. I haven't attended classes in a couple of years as I can't justify paying yearly insurance and subscription fees if I'm not sure I can commit to regular attendance, hence I use online classes.
Gyms here do not teach yoga, which is still occasionally regarded with suspicion as a religious cult, but this is all by the by.
Sorry for one sentence extra, even after editing
Gassho
Meitou
Sattoday lah