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Thread: Did Dogen invent Shikantaza?

  1. #1

    Question Did Dogen invent Shikantaza?

    To elaborate, this question is specifically about the practice-enlightenment equivalence in the Soto Zen tradition and not about the Buddhist tradition more generally.

    When I review some of the older Zen texts (six patriarchs and pre-Soto material) I notice a handful of things:

    1. They have more to do with expressing Zen through enigmatic sayings and situations
    2. There is very little reference to formal seated meditation and some of the times they do refer to it they speak of it negatively
    3. Awakening is something that can happen in a moment such that a narration can conclude with it as the main event
    4. Some of this "chop wood, carry water, clean your bowl" stuff seems to be put into a context of defining the entire Buddha-Dharma rather than any refuge in Zazen, chanting, ritual, etc.
    5. This early Chan material feels reminiscent of Taoist influence which could be a bit iconoclastic

    Finally, allowing for point of view expressed by way of personal commentary, I want to be clear that what I am primarily interested in is citations from before the time of Dogen (preferably from the six Chan patriarchs or around their time) that explicitly express the importance of Zazen, the equivalence of practice with enlightenment and other Dogen-esque views.

    I had to be a little long to be thorough but the most direct answers to this question would simply be good quotations.

    Gassho,

    Andrew,

    Satlah

  2. #2
    You’re investigation is admirable. Always seek truth. As I have been taught. The dogma or dictation from our limitless masters is inconsequential. As the Buddha teaches, do no harm, seek truth, and purify your heart. Devotion to this leads towards fulfillment. May you be well tonight


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Insight579 View Post
    You’re investigation is admirable. Always seek truth. As I have been taught. The dogma or dictation from our limitless masters is inconsequential. As the Buddha teaches, do no harm, seek truth, and purify your heart. Devotion to this leads towards fulfillment. May you be well tonight


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Thank you for that.
    Have a good night as well.

    Gassho,

    Andrew,

    Satlah

  4. #4
    Hi Andrew,

    Let me start at the end:

    Quote Originally Posted by A.J. View Post
    Finally, allowing for point of view expressed by way of personal commentary, I want to be clear that what I am primarily interested in is citations from before the time of Dogen (preferably from the six Chan patriarchs or around their time) that explicitly express the importance of Zazen, the equivalence of practice with enlightenment and other Dogen-esque views.
    Historian Morten Schlutter has chronicled the history of Silent Illumination Zazen (in his masterful "How Zen Became Zen", p. 172-174):

    The new Caodong tradition, then, seems to have simply adopted the type of meditation already common in Chan and elevated its importance. What made the silent illumination teachings of the Caodong tradition distinctive, therefore, was not the meditation technique or even its doctrinal underpinnings but its sustained, exhuberant celebration of inherent enlightenment and its persistent stress on stillness and de-emphasis on enlightenment as a breakthrough experience. In this way, the Caodong tradition did make meditation an end in itself: as long as meditation was approached correctly, nothing else was really needed. Thus, the silent illumination practice of the new Caodong tradition really did differentiate it from the rest of Chan ... . Even though the new Caodong tradition's teaching style was seen as distinctive, it did not entail, as I have argued above, a radical departure from earlier meditation techniques ...
    Awhile back, I posted quotes from several of the old Chinese masters that seem on point. I will provide the links, and a taste of each:

    The Zazen taught in the 'Platform Sutra' is Shikantaza

    The most specific instruction for "how to" seated Zazen in the text is at the end, as Huineng advises his disciples in his final words from his death bed:

    Be the same as you would if I were here, and sit all together in meditation. If you are only peacefully calm and quiet, without motion, without stillness, without birth, without destruction, without coming, without going, without judgments of right and wrong, without staying and without going-this then is the Great Way. After I have gone just practice according to the Dharma in the same way that you did on the days that I was with you.
    Hui-neng teaches that Zazen is not about "stilling the mind" to have no thoughts, but about "non-thought, non-form, non-abiding", i.e., freedom from thoughts, form and abiding even amid thoughts form and abiding ... the heart of Shikantaza. Notice in the following that the problem is --not-- that "successive thoughts stop", but only that we do not cling to them:

    Successive thoughts do not stop; prior thoughts, present thoughts, and future thoughts follow one after the other without cessation. If one instant of thought is cut off, the Dharma body separates from the physical body, and in the midst of successive thoughts there will be no place for attachment to anything. If one instant of thought clings, then successive thoughts cling; this is known as being fettered. If in all things successive thoughts do not cling, then you are unfettered. Therefore, non-abiding is made the basis. Good friends, being outwardly separated from all forms, this is non-form. When you are separated from form, the substance of your nature is pure. Therefore, non-form is made the substance. To be unstained in all environments is called no-thought ...
    ... In case there is any doubt, this Zazen is seated Zazen ... but sitting unentangled by the forms seen outside through the open eyes, inwardly clear. It is --not-- to be without thoughts, but not to activate them, to pursue and become entangled. The very act of sitting is pure:

    "Now that we know that this is so, what is it in this teaching that we call 'sitting in meditation' (tso-ch'an)? In this teaching 'sitting' means without any obstruction anywhere, outwardly and under all circumstances, not to activate thoughts. 'Meditation' is internally to see the original nature and not become confused.

    And what do we call Ch'an meditation (ch'an-ting)? Outwardly to exclude form is 'ch'an'; inwardly to be unconfused is meditation (ting) . Even though there is form on the outside, when internally the nature is not confused, then, from the outset, you are of yourself pure and of yourself in meditation. The very contact with circumstances itself causes confusion . Separation from form on the outside is 'ch'an'; being untouched on the inside is meditation (ting). Being 'ch'an' externally and meditation (ting) internally, it is known as ch'an meditation (ch'an-ting).
    https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...ll=1#post61069

    It is not surprising that the meditation style of the Platform Sutra smacks of Shikantaza, as Shikantaza smacks of Silent Illumination ... and such was pretty much the orthodox style of many of the early Chan masters, such as Sekito Kisen (Shitou Xiqian), just two generations from the 6th Patriarch.

    The specific practice experience of shikan taza was first articulated in the Soto Zen lineage (Caodong in Chinese) by the Chinese master Hongzhi Zhengjue (1091-1157; Wanshi Shogaku in Japanese),and further elaborated by the Japanese Soto founder Eihei Dogen (1200-1253). But prior to their expressions of this experience, there are hints of this practice in some of the earlier teachers of the tradition. The founding teachers of this lineage run from Shitou Xiqian (700-790; Sekito Kisen in Japanese), two generations after the Chinese Sixth Ancestor, through three generations to Dongshan Liangjie (807-869; Tozan Ryokai in Japanese), the usually recognized founder of the Caodong, or Soto, lineage in China. ...

    Shitou/ Sekito ... wrote another teaching poem, Soanka, "Song of the Grass Hut," which presents more of a practice model for how to develop the space that fosters just sitting. Therein Shitou says, "Just sitting with head covered all things are at rest. Thus this mountain monk does not understand at all." So just sitting does not involve reaching some understanding. It is the subtle activity of allowing all things to be completely at rest just as they are, not poking one's head into the workings of the world.

    Shitou also says in Soanka, "Turn around the light to shine within, then just return. . . . Let go of hundreds of years and relax completely. Open your hands and walk, innocent." According to Shitou, the fundamental orientation of turning within, also later described by Hongzhi and Dogen, is simply in order to return to the world, and to our original quality. Letting go of conditioning while steeped in completely relaxed awareness, one is able to act effectively, innocent of grasping and attachments. So the context of this just sitting suggested by Shitou is the possibility of aware and responsive presence that is simple, open-hearted, and straightforward.
    https://web.archive.org/web/20150310...f_just_sitting
    Bodhidharma:

    there is one old proto-Chan writing that some scholars do think might be by the old geezer. Red Pine, in his recent book "Zen Baggage", comments on his earlier Bodhidharma translations, "How much of it was actually by Bodhidharma is unknown, but even scholars agree that the one called [Two Entrances and] Four Practices was most likely his." In his "The Bodhidharma Anthology", Jeffrey Broughton writes, "For decades discussion [by scholars] both Japanese and Western, has concentrated on the Two Entrances [and Four Practices], and has come to the consensus that only this text can be attributed to Bodhidharma."

    Those who turn from delusion back to reality, who meditate [in "wall contemplation" in which self and other, ordinary person and sage, are one and the same], and who remain unmoved even by scriptures are in complete and unspoken agreement with [principle].
    The meaning of "wall contemplation" (bìguan/pi-kuan) is long debated, but may mean (not literally "facing the wall" as often, and probably "too literally" and incorrectly professed in the Soto school), but rather to sit "as a wall sits", i.e., unperturbed by surrounding circumstances and the dusts of the senses. It may also mean something like to sit "abiding in illumination".
    Even Master Linji. It is clear that meditation happened in his monastery, but he seemed to emphasize so with a "non-gaining" mind and a "non-learning" meditation of just "turning the light within":

    “Bring to rest the thoughts of the ceaselessly seeking mind, and you will not differ from the patriarch-buddha. Do you want to know the patriarch-buddha? He is none other than you who stand before me listening to my discourse. But because you students lack faith in yourselves, you run around seeking something outside. Even if, through your seeking, you did find something, that something would be nothing more than fancy descriptions in written words; never would you gain the mind of the living patriarch.

    ...

    “Virtuous monks, time is precious. And yet, hurrying hither and thither, you try to learn meditation, to study the Way, to accept names, to accept phrases, to seek buddha, to seek a patriarch, to seek a good teacher, to think and speculate.
    “Make no mistake, followers of the Way! After all, you have a father and a mother—what more do you seek? Turn your own light inward upon yourselves!
    A man of old said, Yajñadatta [thought he had] lost his head,
    But when his seeking mind came to rest, he was at ease.
    “Virtuous monks, just be ordinary. Don’t put on airs.

    ...

    The master said, “It is because you cannot stop your mind which runs on seeking everywhere that a patriarch said, ‘Bah, superior men! Searching for your heads with your heads!’ When at these words you turn your own light in upon yourselves and never seek elsewhere, then you’ll know that your body and mind are not different from those of the patriarch-buddhas and on the instant have nothing to do—this is called ‘obtaining the dharma.’
    Andrew, you ask:

    To elaborate, this question is specifically about the practice-enlightenment equivalence in the Soto Zen tradition and not about the Buddhist tradition more generally.

    When I review some of the older Zen texts (six patriarchs and pre-Soto material) I notice a handful of things:

    1. They have more to do with expressing Zen through enigmatic sayings and situations
    Well, not really. The "enigmatic sayings" in the Koans were typically written by later authors of the Song dynasty about figures who lived in the earlier Tang dynasty, and are mostly not considered historical records of events, and instead literary creations. As you can see, the earlier documents such as the Platform Sutra, Record of Rinzai and the like are comparatively easy to understand and are not in the style of "enigmatic phrases."

    2. There is very little reference to formal seated meditation and some of the times they do refer to it they speak of it negatively
    No. It is pretty clear that the meditation was part of the daily schedule at almost all Chan monasteries from the practice rules we have. There were statements, just as by Linji, against meditation done with gaining mind ("shuzen" or "learning meditation," the same criticism Dogen makes in the Fukanzazengi.) In fact, government authorities would have closed down any monastery viewed as so "lax" as to not be keeping the traditional monastic schedule. There is a good historian's paper on this which I will try to find for you.

    3. Awakening is something that can happen in a moment such that a narration can conclude with it as the main event
    No. Almost no teachers of the past held that one was fully awakened by one opening experience.

    4. Some of this "chop wood, carry water, clean your bowl" stuff seems to be put into a context of defining the entire Buddha-Dharma rather than any refuge in Zazen, chanting, ritual, etc.
    Sorry, I don't understand the question.

    5. This early Chan material feels reminiscent of Taoist influence which could be a bit iconoclastic
    Yes, there was a heavy Taoist influence, specifically from neo-Taoist Xuanxue practices and sensibilities, which perfumed Indian Buddhism to become Chan.

    Do you have other concerns?

    Sorry for writing long.

    Gassho, Jundo

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 09-12-2020 at 10:01 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  5. #5
    There's a lot in here about the early history of Zen and Chan and how Daruma-shu may have influenced Dogen more than he would like to admit. It seems like lots of pre-Shikantanza meditations had to to with superpower and relics. ( for some reason it reminded me of Ken Wilber's "A brief history of everything" where he describes this period of time in human evolution as magical-thinking). Not sure if it will answer your question but nevertheless interesting read: https://www.jstor.org/stable/2385038...o_tab_contents


    Gassho
    Sat

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Ania View Post
    There's a lot in here about the early history of Zen and Chan and how Daruma-shu may have influenced Dogen more than he would like to admit. It seems like lots of pre-Shikantanza meditations had to to with superpower and relics. ( for some reason it reminded me of Ken Wilber's "A brief history of everything" where he describes this period of time in human evolution as magical-thinking). Not sure if it will answer your question but nevertheless interesting read: https://www.jstor.org/stable/2385038...o_tab_contents


    Gassho
    Sat
    That is a famous and very good piece by Prof. Faure. I just finished a lovely Ph.d Thesis on the Daruma-shu and Dogen's relationship to their teachings, and they seem to have been a more orthodox Zen group than they were sometimes accused of by critics.

    https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/handle/1887/19051

    But I think that Andrew is asking about the situation in early China, not Japan, with the first Chinese Zen folks.

    Gassho, Jundo

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Hi Andrew,

    Let me start at the end:



    Historian Morten Schlutter has chronicled the history of Silent Illumination Zazen (in his masterful "How Zen Became Zen", p. 172-174):



    Awhile back, I posted quotes from several of the old Chinese masters that seem on point. I will provide the links, and a taste of each:

    The Zazen taught in the 'Platform Sutra' is Shikantaza



    Hui-neng teaches that Zazen is not about "stilling the mind" to have no thoughts, but about "non-thought, non-form, non-abiding", i.e., freedom from thoughts, form and abiding even amid thoughts form and abiding ... the heart of Shikantaza. Notice in the following that the problem is --not-- that "successive thoughts stop", but only that we do not cling to them:



    ... In case there is any doubt, this Zazen is seated Zazen ... but sitting unentangled by the forms seen outside through the open eyes, inwardly clear. It is --not-- to be without thoughts, but not to activate them, to pursue and become entangled. The very act of sitting is pure:


    https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...ll=1#post61069

    It is not surprising that the meditation style of the Platform Sutra smacks of Shikantaza, as Shikantaza smacks of Silent Illumination ... and such was pretty much the orthodox style of many of the early Chan masters, such as Sekito Kisen (Shitou Xiqian), just two generations from the 6th Patriarch.



    Bodhidharma:



    Even Master Linji. It is clear that meditation happened in his monastery, but he seemed to emphasize so with a "non-gaining" mind and a "non-learning" meditation of just "turning the light withing":



    Andrew, you ask:



    Well, not really. The "enigmatic sayings" in the Koans were typically written by later authors of the Song dynasty about figures who lived in the earlier Tang dynasty, and are mostly not considered historical records of events, and instead literary creations. As you can see, the earlier documents such as the Platform Sutra, Record of Rinzai and the like are comparatively easy to understand and are not in the style of "enigmatic phrases."



    No. It is pretty clear that the meditation was part of the daily schedule at almost all Chan monasteries from the practice rules we have. There were statements, just as by Linji, against meditation done with gaining mind ("shuzen" or "learning meditation," the same criticism Dogen makes in the Fukanzazengi.) In fact, government authorities would have closed down any monastery viewed as so "lax" as to not be keeping the traditional monastic schedule. There is a good historian's paper on this which I will try to find for you.



    No. Almost no teachers of the past held that one was fully awakened by one opening experience.



    Sorry, I don't understand the question.



    Yes, there was a heavy Taoist influence, specifically from neo-Taoist Xuanxue practices and sensibilities, which perfumed Indian Buddhism to become Chan.

    Do you have other concerns?

    Sorry for writing long.

    Gassho, Jundo

    STLah
    Regarding the Platform Sutra: I've read that this text has had a long evolution, undergoing multiple redactions and is full of interpolations so I'm not sure if Dogen-esque sounding language should count in that case.

    By moments of awakening I didn't think those old writings were referring to absolute awakening but definitely some distinct experiences (rather than gradual) and interestingly enough it doesn't look like they are usually connected with Zazen.

    When asked the meaning of Zen (or some equivalent question) it also seems somewhat conspicuous that answers like "clean your bowl" come up rather than "the meaning of Zen is obviously Zazen".

    Gassho,

    Andrew,

    Satlah

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    That is a famous and very good piece by Prof. Faure. I just finished a lovely Ph.d Thesis on the Daruma-shu and Dogen's relationship to their teachings, and they seem to have been a more orthodox Zen group than they were sometimes accused of by critics.

    https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/handle/1887/19051

    But I think that Andrew is asking about the situation in early China, not Japan, with the first Chinese Zen folks.

    Gassho, Jundo

    STLah
    Yes, I did download that PDF for future reference but I think I'm curious about earlier stuff. I've occasionally run into the minority view that there was a layer of Zen tradition that was highly intuitive (based on wandering and encounters) rather than formalized so I'm wondering what aspects of the later tradition can be found in the earlier. I believe Alan Watts also makes an argument that there was an early style that played down meditation (including Zazen) in "The Way of Zen" before the popularity of monasteries.

    Gassho,

    Andrew,

    Satlah

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J. View Post
    Regarding the Platform Sutra: I've read that this text has had a long evolution, undergoing multiple redactions and is full of interpolations so I'm not sure if Dogen-esque sounding language should count in that case.
    The version I quoted from is considered the oldest and most basic version we have before later elaborations and expansions, i.e., the Dunhuang version translated by Yampolsky.

    https://terebess.hu/zen/PlatformYampolsky.pdf

    By moments of awakening I didn't think those old writings were referring to absolute awakening but definitely some distinct experiences (rather than gradual) and interestingly enough it doesn't look like they are usually connected with Zazen.
    Momentless moments of awakening can happen during Zazen, or in the garden, stubbing one's toe, seeing a peach blossom. What is your point? Zazen is merely practice which sets the ground for awakening.

    When asked the meaning of Zen (or some equivalent question) it also seems somewhat conspicuous that answers like "clean your bowl" come up rather than "the meaning of Zen is obviously Zazen".
    Sorry, Zazen is Zazen, and then life is most ordinary. This is the lesson too in all of Master Dogen's writings.

    Here is a late, additional entry. Master Rinzai's teacher Huanbo, translated by McRae

    Furthermore, at all times and in every moment of thought don’t perceive all the characteristics and don’t recognize past, [present,] and future, the three periods of time. The past does not go, the present does not abide, and the future does not come. Sitting peacefully upright, letting things happen as they will—only then may you be called liberated.
    https://www.scribd.com/document/2349...ission-of-Mind
    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    The version I quoted from is considered the oldest and most basic version we have before later elaborations and expansions, i.e., the Dunhuang version translated by Yampolsky.

    https://terebess.hu/zen/PlatformYampolsky.pdf



    Momentless moments of awakening can happen during Zazen, or in the garden, stubbing one's toe, seeing a peach blossom. What is your point? Zazen is merely practice which sets the ground for awakening.



    Sorry, Zazen is Zazen, and then life is most ordinary. This is the lesson too in all of Master Dogen's writings.

    Here is a late, additional entry. Master Rinzai's teacher Huanbo, translated by McRae



    Gassho, J

    STLah
    My point is merely to look for solid quotes that sound like Shikantaza well before Dogen.
    Considering the heavy emphasis on Shikantaza it feels odd when reviewing some of the old geezers that it hardly comes up.
    It also seems odd that records illustrating moments of awakening don't usually connect those moments with Zazen... hence the request for solid quotations and it looks at first glance like so far there are a few.

    Gassho,

    Andrew,

    Satlah

  11. #11
    Ps -
    I believe Alan Watts also makes an argument that there was an early style that played down meditation (including Zazen) in "The Way of Zen" before the popularity of monasteries.
    Alan Watts, writing 60 or 70 years ago before we had all the information and research we have today about Zen history, said many things that are totally unreliable. I would not take him as a source.

    There was one particular group mentioned in Zongmi's descriptions of the early Chan schools of his time (8th century) that was so iconoclastic, and he criticized them for it, the infamous Wuzhu (https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/BaotangWuzhu.html). Other schools advocated various forms of practice and meditation. As this paper on Zongmi's list states:

    The rebellious, anti-textual, anti-ceremonial, anti-institutional tendency in Zen Buddhism, as generally known to Western students, is only part of the Ch'an complex. In other words, the objections to the reading of scriptures, to the study of dogmatics, to worship and sitting in meditation, were only supported by certain sects of the Ch'an school, at a certain time, but were not at all universal. In this respect, the contribution of Tsung-mi is indeed unique: he analysed the sects without sectarian sentiment, and insisted on the metaphysical foundations of Ch'an practice.

    ...
    https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/Tsu...n-Buddhism.pdf

    So, meditation was quite common. There were a variety of meditation approaches, however. One stream developed into "silent illumination," and there seemed to be a strong "non-seeking" flavor within that. So, Shikantaza may be said to be playing on that theme.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 09-12-2020 at 09:03 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J. View Post
    My point is merely to look for solid quotes that sound like Shikantaza well before Dogen.
    Considering the heavy emphasis on Shikantaza it feels odd when reviewing some of the old geezers that it hardly comes up.
    It also seems odd that records illustrating moments of awakening don't usually connect those moments with Zazen... hence the request for solid quotations and it looks at first glance like so far there are a few.

    Gassho,

    Andrew,

    Satlah
    Is your point to find out "proof" that meditation is not needed for Enlightenment? When reading about Zen and it's old masters I found that all of them meditated (and a lot) though is seems like only Dogen described Shikantanza in such detail. The advice to go and wash your bowl as a practice is maybe necessary to help realise that Enlightenment is no different than ordinary life/samsara, weather you attain it on the cushion, cutting through a koan or stabbing your toe.

    Gassho
    Sat

  13. #13
    I was reading a book on the history of zen and I came across a chapter that explains how zen divided between the northern and the southern school. One placed more importance on gradual training and the other said that enlightenment is instantaneous and does not depen upon meditation practice. The book is in Spanish tho. I am sure that other members can offer much material on the matter. Also, I am terrible at offering quotations, but I can say that from my personal perspective, Shikantaza is just a "formal" way to do Zazen. The key is to practice Zazen in everything. And if you sit in formal meditation for a while, you can tell the difference that it makes in comparison with just being mindful without actually sitting.

    In terms of gaining understanding from the old geezers, what better geezer than Buddha himself, who heavily emphasized sitting meditation.

    Gassho, Tomás
    Sat

    Sorry for going over 3 sentences.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J. View Post
    My point is merely to look for solid quotes that sound like Shikantaza well before Dogen.
    Considering the heavy emphasis on Shikantaza it feels odd when reviewing some of the old geezers that it hardly comes up.
    It also seems odd that records illustrating moments of awakening don't usually connect those moments with Zazen... hence the request for solid quotations and it looks at first glance like so far there are a few.
    But you are wrong, and I showed you such quotes. What is more "Shikantaza" than this from the Dunhuang Platform Sutra (Two copies dated to between 830 and 860):

    Be the same as you would if I were here, and sit all together in meditation. If you are only peacefully calm and quiet, without motion, without stillness, without birth, without destruction, without coming, without going, without judgments of right and wrong, without staying and without going-this then is the Great Way. After I have gone just practice according to the Dharma in the same way that you did on the days that I was with you.
    In equanimity, peacefully and calm, beyond motion or stillness, dropping thought of birth and death, no coming or going, free of judgments of right or wrong.

    And then we have the Shikantaza-like attitude of "non-attaining" from Linji and others.

    “In my view there is no Buddha, no sentient beings, no past, no present. Anything attained was already attained—no time is needed. There is nothing to practice, nothing to realize, nothing to gain, nothing to lose. Throughout all time there is no other dharma than this. ‘If one claims there’s a dharma surpassing this, I say that it’s like a dream, like a phantasm.’ This is all I have to teach.
    The above can sound antinomian, as if he were rejecting meditation ... but there is ample evidence that they were meditating in the monastery. So, if they were meditating ... and he was teaching "nothing to gain" ... he seems to have been teaching meditation and all practice with a "nothing to gain" attitude.

    When he did criticize meditation, it was to stifle all thoughts (not letting thoughts rise) or to attain special states:

    “There are a bunch of blind shavepates who, having stuffed themselves with food, sit down to meditate and practice contemplation. Arresting the flow of thought they don’t let it rise; they hate noise and seek stillness. This is the method of the heretics. A patriarch said, ‘If you stop the mind to look at stillness, arouse the mind to illumine outside, control the mind to clarify inside, concentrate the mind to enter samādhi—all such [practices] as these are artificial striving.’ [Jundo Note: This and several other quotes on not trying to still the flow of thoughts]

    ...

    The master said, “It is because you cannot stop your mind which runs on seeking everywhere that a patriarch said, ‘Bah, superior men! Searching for your heads with your heads!’ When at these words you turn your own light in upon yourselves and never seek elsewhere, then you’ll know that your body and mind are not different from those of the patriarch-buddhas and on the instant have nothing to do—this is called ‘obtaining the dharma.’
    https://web.archive.org/web/20160201...nji-sasaki.pdf
    The record of the past is pretty sketchy (gee, we are looking at scraps of text more than 1000 years old!), but it seems clear that (1) the old dudes generally meditated and (2) "non-seeking" was a very common teaching even back then.

    Sorry, a bit long.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 09-12-2020 at 11:53 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomás Sard View Post
    I was reading a book on the history of zen and I came across a chapter that explains how zen divided between the northern and the southern school. One placed more importance on gradual training and the other said that enlightenment is instantaneous and does not depen upon meditation practice. The book is in Spanish tho. I am sure that other members can offer much material on the matter. Also, I am terrible at offering quotations, but I can say that from my personal perspective, Shikantaza is just a "formal" way to do Zazen. The key is to practice Zazen in everything. And if you sit in formal meditation for a while, you can tell the difference that it makes in comparison with just being mindful without actually sitting.

    In terms of gaining understanding from the old geezers, what better geezer than Buddha himself, who heavily emphasized sitting meditation.

    Gassho, Tomás
    Sat

    Sorry for going over 3 sentences.
    That story of the differences between the so-called northern and southern traditions is overdone too, and half myth and sectarian politics. But that is a topic for another day.

    One of the best recent and most honest, balanced treatments of Zen history is this publication, I very much recommend.

    Book Review: The Circle of the Way -- A Concise History of Zen
    https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...barbara+circle

    The author, Barbara O'Brien, came to Treeleaf awhile back to talk about the book:

    Special Zazenkai with Writer-Zen Historian Barbara O'Brien
    https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...arbara-O-Brien

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Ania View Post
    Is your point to find out "proof" that meditation is not needed for Enlightenment? When reading about Zen and it's old masters I found that all of them meditated (and a lot) though is seems like only Dogen described Shikantanza in such detail. The advice to go and wash your bowl as a practice is maybe necessary to help realise that Enlightenment is no different than ordinary life/samsara, weather you attain it on the cushion, cutting through a koan or stabbing your toe.

    Gassho
    Sat
    No. I'm not interested in finding proof of anything. I'm simply thinking about the development of Zen as a tradition.

    Gassho,

    Andrew,

    Satlah

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J. View Post
    No. I'm not interested in finding proof of anything. I'm simply thinking about the development of Zen as a tradition.

    Gassho,

    Andrew,

    Satlah
    You make assertions, but you don't offer much evidence or facts or supporting texts on your side beside your bare assertions. Put up or shut up ... and sit!

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    But you are wrong, and I showed you such quotes. What is more "Shikantaza" than this from the Dunhuang Platform Sutra (Two copies dated to between 830 and 860):



    In equanimity, peacefully and calm, beyond motion or stillness, dropping thought of birth and death, no coming or going, free of judgments of right or wrong.

    And then we have the Shikantaza-like attitude of "non-attaining" from Linji and others.



    The above can sound antinomian, as if he were rejecting meditation ... but there is ample evidence that they were meditating in the monastery. So, if they were meditating ... and he was teaching "nothing to gain" ... he seems to have been teaching meditation and all practice with a "nothing to gain" attitude.

    When he did criticize meditation, it was to stifle all thoughts (not letting thoughts rise) or to attain special states:



    The record of the past is pretty sketchy (gee, we are looking at scraps of text more than 1000 years old!), but it seems clear that (1) the old dudes generally meditated and (2) "non-seeking" was a very common teaching even back then.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    It's a little weird to say I'm wrong considering that I'm not making a claim.
    The emphasis on Zazen in Dogen in contrast to the early material is still striking though I appreciate your few quotes.

    Gassho,

    Andrew,

    Satlah

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    You make assertions, but you don't offer much evidence or facts or supporting texts on your side beside your bare assertions. Put up or shut up ... and sit!

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Wow. That's actually a really bad attitude for a Zen priest... camouflaged as spirituality. That kind of approach definitely changes my view of your intentions with this forum.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J. View Post
    It's a little weird to say I'm wrong considering that I'm not making a claim.
    What? What are you doing then? You are claiming that Dogen's Shikantaza has no like roots in the earlier tradition, and I showed you several famous quotes that preach "non-gaining" and a similar description of Zazen from the 9th century Platform Sutra.

    The emphasis on Zazen in Dogen in contrast to the early material is still striking though I appreciate your few quotes.
    You keep asserting some "contrast," but give no hint of what you mean.

    And even if, for the devil's argument, Dogen invented Shikantaza wholly on his own with no earlier roots in Silent Illumination, that would still be a tradition of 800 years ... which is pretty good. That said, Dogen did not invent Shikantaza wholly on his own, and the roots to Hongzhi and the earlier Silent Illumination tradition are pretty clear, as historian John McRae describes in the first quote I put "How Zen Became Zen", p. 172-174):

    The new Caodong tradition, then, seems to have simply adopted the type of meditation already common in Chan and elevated its importance. What made the silent illumination teachings of the Caodong tradition distinctive, therefore, was not the meditation technique or even its doctrinal underpinnings but its sustained, exhuberant celebration of inherent enlightenment and its persistent stress on stillness and de-emphasis on enlightenment as a breakthrough experience. In this way, the Caodong tradition did make meditation an end in itself: as long as meditation was approached correctly, nothing else was really needed. Thus, the silent illumination practice of the new Caodong tradition really did differentiate it from the rest of Chan ... . Even though the new Caodong tradition's teaching style was seen as distinctive, it did not entail, as I have argued above, a radical departure from earlier meditation techniques ...
    It is a good book, you should read it.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J. View Post
    Wow. That's actually a really bad attitude for a Zen priest... camouflaged as spirituality. That kind of approach definitely changes my view of your intentions with this forum.
    You are starting to seem like a bit of a troll yourself, no? You ask questions, and want textual evidence, and some was provided.

    But you don't provide any textual evidence that Shikantaza has no roots in the early Chan tradition as you assert. If you have some, please provide it.

    Gassho, Jundo

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  22. #22
    Member Seishin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
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    La Croix-Avranchin, Basse Normandie, France
    Just an observation on the last few posts.
    1)Andrew do you not accept the various articles provided by Jundo as evidence that Shikantaza was being practiced long before Dogen?
    2)If not can you provide evidence to the contrary to support this view?
    3) Just sit.

    Sat lah

    Seishin

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    You are starting to seem like a bit of a troll yourself, no? You ask questions, and want textual evidence, and some was provided.

    But you don't provide any textual evidence that Shikantaza has no roots in the early Chan tradition as you assert. If you have some, please provide it.

    Gassho, Jundo

    STLah
    I listed considerations my question was based on but I did not make any claims about what the Zen tradition was in the early days for certain. The fact that you need to start with internet name-calling as a Zen priest demonstrates that you don't have room for discussion. No wonder you limit everyone to three sentences and then you go beyond that more than anyone. Between that and your tendency to shut people down you seem to have some kind of control problem. No wonder you started all that drama with the Hardcore Zen people a decade ago when Brad Warner wouldn't meet with you as you requested and then you made allegations that some other Zen priest punched you in the face. It's unfortunate that it's the people with the control issues who are motivated to get things like this going. I'm sure I'm not the first dissatisfied customer but your thread archives only go back as far as 2020. Good riddance. I won't be back.
    "Priest" here is rude. Not worth the time if you want depth in discussion because past a point he just goes into shut-down mode. No wonder he limits everyone to three sentences and is the most frequent offender of his own rule. Some kind of control thing. Won't be back.

  24. #24
    I feel like A.J. already had an agenda when he started this thread. Unfortunate.

    Gassho, Tomás
    Sat&LaH

  25. #25
    Member Seishin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    La Croix-Avranchin, Basse Normandie, France
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J. View Post
    I listed considerations my question was based on but I did not make any claims about what the Zen tradition was in the early days for certain. The fact that you need to start with internet name-calling as a Zen priest demonstrates that you don't have room for discussion. No wonder you limit everyone to three sentences and then you go beyond that more than anyone. Between that and your tendency to shut people down you seem to have some kind of control problem. No wonder you started all that drama with the Hardcore Zen people a decade ago when Brad Warner wouldn't meet with you as you requested and then you made allegations that some other Zen priest punched you in the face. It's unfortunate that it's the people with the control issues who are motivated to get things like this going. I'm sure I'm not the first dissatisfied customer but your thread archives only go back as far as 2020. Good riddance. I won't be back.
    And now the hidden agenda is revealed. Very disapointing. I will sit for Andrew and offer metta.

    Sat lah

    Seishin

  26. #26
    Wow. That's actually a really bad attitude for a Zen priest... camouflaged as spirituality. That kind of approach definitely changes my view of your intentions with this forum.
    On reading the stories of old masters, you will doubtless notice that Zen teachers often directly challenge other Zen folk. By the measure of those interactions, Jundo is a pussycat.

    It looks to me like a gentle admonition that the intellectual stuff has run its course and it is time to sit.


    The advice to go and wash your bowl as a practice is maybe necessary to help realise that Enlightenment is no different than ordinary life/samsara, weather you attain it on the cushion, cutting through a koan or stabbing your toe.
    I also think 'clean your bowl' is a metaphor for approaching each moment fresh rather than with baggage of what has gone before.


    Gassho
    Kokuu
    -sattoday-

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomás Sard View Post
    I feel like A.J. already had an agenda when he started this thread. Unfortunate.

    Gassho, Tomás
    Sat&LaH
    I think he had one when he joined. I also offer Metta.
    Gassho
    Meitou
    Sattoday lah
    命 Mei - life
    島 Tou - island

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J. View Post
    I listed considerations my question was based on but I did not make any claims about what the Zen tradition was in the early days for certain. The fact that you need to start with internet name-calling as a Zen priest demonstrates that you don't have room for discussion. No wonder you limit everyone to three sentences and then you go beyond that more than anyone. Between that and your tendency to shut people down you seem to have some kind of control problem. No wonder you started all that drama with the Hardcore Zen people a decade ago when Brad Warner wouldn't meet with you as you requested and then you made allegations that some other Zen priest punched you in the face. It's unfortunate that it's the people with the control issues who are motivated to get things like this going. I'm sure I'm not the first dissatisfied customer but your thread archives only go back as far as 2020. Good riddance. I won't be back.
    Are you dealing with some sort of unresolved rejection? You seem very erudite and well read. Zen was never a soft way of cuddling the ego, if you'd approached an ancient "old geezer" Zen Master like you did, he would probably smack your head to shake all the knowledge out and make you feel it instead. What ware you seeking here?
    Metta to you.
    Gassho
    Sat

  29. #29
    And this is the world we live in, in which the art of civil discussion and substantiating claims with evidence is a lost art. Alas.

    Please come back and sit with us any time.

    Gassho, J

    SatTodayLAH

    PS - For point of disclosure, our archives here go back to 2006 and are fully searchable. You must have been doing something wrong. A priest who was having some personal issues gave me a shove, not a punch, when I made the mistake of trying to make peace among some people, but that was in 2010, now more than 10 years ago. I like to say that, if that is the only "scandal" that someone can come up with for my 20 years online ... that some of the angry "Dharma Punks" on Brad's old blog took after me, and someone gave me a shove at a meeting ... then I am doing pretty good.
    Last edited by Jundo; 09-12-2020 at 12:04 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  30. #30
    One more point on one of Andrew's questions ...

    5. This early Chan material feels reminiscent of Taoist influence which could be a bit iconoclastic
    There happen to be some early Taoist and Confucian meditation forms which may smack of Silent Illumination and Shikantaza too. I have not seen anyone connect them directly to Zazen, but there was much Taoist-Confucian-Buddhist interchange in those early centuries. It may simply indicate that seekers in various traditions just sometimes do things in similar ways. Details are also elusive, but one is called Jing zuo (靜坐), or "quiet sitting." I am not expert, but here are a few pages that describe it a bit:

    https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=...itting&f=false

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  31. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    One more point on one of Andrew's questions ...



    There happen to be some early Taoist and Confucian meditation forms which may smack of Silent Illumination and Shikantaza too. I have not seen anyone connect them directly to Zazen, but there was much Taoist-Confucian-Buddhist interchange in those early centuries. It may simply indicate that seekers in various traditions just sometimes do things in similar ways. Details are also elusive, but one is called Jing zuo (靜坐), or "quiet sitting." I am not expert, but here are a few pages that describe it a bit:

    https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=...itting&f=false

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    People like Andrew have an issue with understanding the practice of Zen because they are ignorant about the nature of the teachings and the origin of it all.

    Seeking to prove or disprove Zen practice while not being engaged in ANY kind of practice, but merely studying it from an academic perspective, is a futile thing. I’ve seen and dealt with people with the same attitude, who were ready to bite anyone’s head off when it came to defending there was NOTHING to do in Zen, yet they had never sat zazen, never chanted a sutra, never had a proper conversation with someone where they actually listened instead of argue.

    The practice of Buddhism and Zen is something that stems from the universal truth of the dharma. Three thousand people scattered around the world unaware of each other can reach the exact same understanding and have the same realizations IF they truly practice the Buddha way even if unaware of it.

    No one taught Sidharta how to sit zazen or how to attain enlightenment. He did it on his own like countless Buddhas before him, because it is a natural thing and ingrained in us.

    Sorry about the extra sentences. I just wanted to make these few comment because for weeks now I’ve witnessed the attitude coming from AJ and I’ve avoided replying on purpose.

    SatToday lah
    Bion
    -------------------------
    When you put Buddha’s activity into practice, only then are you a buddha. When you act like a fool, then you’re a fool. - Sawaki Roshi

  32. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J. View Post
    I listed considerations my question was based on but I did not make any claims about what the Zen tradition was in the early days for certain. The fact that you need to start with internet name-calling as a Zen priest demonstrates that you don't have room for discussion. No wonder you limit everyone to three sentences and then you go beyond that more than anyone. Between that and your tendency to shut people down you seem to have some kind of control problem. No wonder you started all that drama with the Hardcore Zen people a decade ago when Brad Warner wouldn't meet with you as you requested and then you made allegations that some other Zen priest punched you in the face. It's unfortunate that it's the people with the control issues who are motivated to get things like this going. I'm sure I'm not the first dissatisfied customer but your thread archives only go back as far as 2020. Good riddance. I won't be back.
    Brad Warner strikes me as someone who would burn in one of the hells described by Hakuin in Wild Ivy.
    Gassho
    Sat

  33. #33
    Much said while I slept. Much learned with my first cup of coffee. Also learned a new word “erudite” so thank you Ania and Google.

    Doshin
    St

  34. #34
    Brad Warner strikes me as someone who would burn in one of the hells described by Hakuin in Wild Ivy.
    Ah, I like Brad. I don't agree with everything he says but he has shown a long and genuine commitment to Zen and practice.

    As well as more traditional teachers, we need those who have a willingness to take a different tack and I imagine Brad has brought a distinct group of people to Soto that might not have come by other routes.

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    -sattoday-

  35. #35
    I was actually very much appreciating reading Jundo's answers to all those questions. Many of those questions were excellent, despite the elaborate gymnastics that were required in order to find reasons to reject them. Nine bows to A.J. for asking questions I wouldn't have thought of, and nine bows to Jundo for being far more patient than I would have.

    Gassho
    Kyōshin
    Satlah

    Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

  36. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokuu View Post
    Ah, I like Brad. I don't agree with everything he says but he has shown a long and genuine commitment to Zen and practice.

    As well as more traditional teachers, we need those who have a willingness to take a different tack and I imagine Brad has brought a distinct group of people to Soto that might not have come by other routes.

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    -sattoday-
    I will also jump to Brad's defense. I don't always agree with him, but then I don't always agree with Jundo either. For all his faults, I think Brad is a dedicated practitioner and fills an important niche with his books; very few zen authors manage to write books that are so substantive while also unpretentious and approachably easy to read.

    Gassho
    Kyōshin
    Satlah.

    Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

  37. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyoshin View Post
    I was actually very much appreciating reading Jundo's answers to all those questions. Many of those questions were excellent, despite the elaborate gymnastics that were required in order to find reasons to reject them. Nine bows to A.J. for asking questions I wouldn't have thought of, and nine bows to Jundo for being far more patient than I would have.

    Gassho
    Kyōshin
    Satlah

    Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

    Nick
    SatLah

  38. #38
    Wowsers. Dharma combat.

    Gassho,
    Juki

    Sat today and lah
    "First you have to give up." Tyler Durden

  39. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyoshin View Post
    I was actually very much appreciating reading Jundo's answers to all those questions. Many of those questions were excellent, despite the elaborate gymnastics that were required in order to find reasons to reject them. Nine bows to A.J. for asking questions I wouldn't have thought of, and nine bows to Jundo for being far more patient than I would have.

    Gassho
    Kyōshin
    Satlah

    Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk
    AJ’s questions come right out of the Zen sub on Reddit. It’s the same questions posed there for years now and exactly the same refusal to accept any answer, because the questions are not posed with the purpose of being answered.

    SatToday lah
    Bion
    -------------------------
    When you put Buddha’s activity into practice, only then are you a buddha. When you act like a fool, then you’re a fool. - Sawaki Roshi

  40. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Ania View Post
    Brad Warner strikes me as someone who would burn in one of the hells described by Hakuin in Wild Ivy.
    Gassho
    Sat
    Gentle speech, nobody to hell. Brad is a good fellow. But some of the Dharma punk folks around his blog back in the day ... my first lesson in the hells of the internet!

    Gassho, J

    STlah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  41. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by jakeb View Post
    AJ’s questions come right out of the Zen sub on Reddit. It’s the same questions posed there for years now and exactly the same refusal to accept any answer, because the questions are not posed with the purpose of being answered.

    SatToday lah
    Yes, I have encountered that place before. Tomas, if you see this, would you mind recounting the story about Professor Bielefeldt? It is very interesting.

    Gassho, Jundo

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  42. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Yes, I have encountered that place before. Tomas, if you see this, would you mind recounting the story about Professor Bielefeldt? It is very interesting.

    Gassho, Jundo

    STLah
    Wait .. didn’t he write a book about Dogen? I know a story about him too.

    SatToday lah
    Bion
    -------------------------
    When you put Buddha’s activity into practice, only then are you a buddha. When you act like a fool, then you’re a fool. - Sawaki Roshi

  43. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by jakeb View Post
    AJ’s questions come right out of the Zen sub on Reddit. It’s the same questions posed there for years now and exactly the same refusal to accept any answer, because the questions are not posed with the purpose of being answered.

    SatToday lah
    The zen sub on Reddit is a dumpster fire I go out of my way to avoid.

    Gassho
    Kyōshin
    Satlah

    Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

  44. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyoshin View Post
    The zen sub on Reddit is a dumpster fire I go out of my way to avoid.

    Gassho
    Kyōshin
    Satlah

    Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk
    Those are my EXACT WORDS!

    SatToday lah
    Bion
    -------------------------
    When you put Buddha’s activity into practice, only then are you a buddha. When you act like a fool, then you’re a fool. - Sawaki Roshi

  45. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Gentle speech, nobody to hell. Brad is a good fellow. But some of the Dharma punk folks around his blog back in the day ... my first lesson in the hells of the internet!

    Gassho, J

    STlah
    I thought the Dharma Punks were Noah Levine's group before his fall from grace? Brad wasn't ever associated with them, was he?

    Gassho
    Kyōshin
    Satlah

    Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

  46. #46
    I will just say that I think we should be careful about making assumptions about what A.J's intentions are/were, it can start to sound like idle gossip. Perhaps he did come here with honest intentions, or perhaps he didn't. I've met lots of people who process the world/information in a very different way than I do and it can sound like they're trying to cause trouble from my perspective, but that doesn't necessarily mean what I think they're saying reflects reality.

    That doesn't mean I agree with A.J's approach to these things either though, nor does it mean I agree with how he handled things in the end. But what A.J's words mean to him, and what they mean to us are not necessarily the same thing, and vice versa.

    There is a quotation from "How to cook your life" that seems applicable here...

    When we look at a cup that is set down between two of us, we have the feeling that we are looking at the same cup, though actually, that is not so. You look at the cup with your vision, and from a certain angle. Moreover, you see it in the rays of light and shadows that come from your side of the room. This applies equally to me as well. In a very rough sense, we proceed to separate the reality of the situation by entertaining the idea that we both see the same cup.
    In this case replace the cup with the perceived meaning behind someone's words.

    Apologies for going over.


    Evan,
    Sat today
    Just going through life one day at a time!

  47. #47
    Wow.

    I've followed all of these threads out of my own intellectual curiosity, but have avoided getting too caught up in the back and forth myself.

    I sincerely hope that Andrew finds the peace of mind that is eluding him. Gassho2

    Jundo, I am so appreciative of your patience with all of our questions and the intellectual "whack!" of your gentle, yet quite firm teaching stick.

    Your responses to these threads have helped assure me that I've found the right Sangha to practice with.

    Gassho,
    Rob

    -stlah-

    (Apologies for the extra sentences)

    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
    聖簡 Seikan (Sacred Simplicity)

  48. #48
    Metta for Andrew. I personally found much of his discussion here tiresome but I acknowledge he was clearly seeking something. I hope that eventually he finds what he is looking for.


    Tairin
    Sat today and lah
    泰林 - Tai Rin - Peaceful Woods

  49. #49
    I'll also say this, because AJ asked so many questions, and because Jundo was so diligent in responding to them, I learned a lot of new things! So I'm very grateful for that!


    Evan,
    Sat today!
    Just going through life one day at a time!

  50. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyoshin View Post
    I thought the Dharma Punks were Noah Levine's group before his fall from grace? Brad wasn't ever associated with them, was he?
    Brad was also a punk rocker (actually, trivia fact, so was I for brief while ... and did my share of stage dives at Black Flag concerts back in the day). In the old days, before he settled down a bit, the atmosphere around Brad's old blog was quite, well, "raucous."

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 09-12-2020 at 02:59 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

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