Yes, more than one, he is one of the great "Dogenologists."Originally Posted by jakeb
Wait .. didn’t he write a book about Dogen? I know a story about him too.
SatToday lah
https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/CarlBielefeldt.html
What is your story?
Gassho, J
STLah
ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
There’s a dude that trolls on Reddit whose biggest defense in the crusade to prove that Dogen was a fraud and a cult leader is using some misunderstood and out of context Bielefeldt quotes. So one day another user emailed Bielefeldt, told him the story and asked if what he meant in his book was that Dogen stole Shobogenzo and that he made up a religion and that he was basically a fraud. Bielefeldt said far from him. He respects Dogen and considers his a great master and a genius.
Bion
-------------------------
When you put Buddha’s activity into practice, only then are you a buddha. When you act like a fool, then you’re a fool. - Sawaki Roshi
I just sent a message to Jundo this morning explaining exactly the same story. Some people on the zen reddit subforum are trying to prove that Dogen never went to China, was never given Dharma transmission by Rujing and that Shikantaza is the same as "prayer-meditation". Which is funny, because there are actual scientific studies proving the benefits of zazen. Before joining TreeLeaf I read their threads for some months, but the people are incredibly toxic to each other and everyone is trying to play zen master. And some members are clearly trying to create a cult around only reading early zen masters. Plus, they also claim that zen is not connected to Buddhism in the first place...There’s a dude that trolls on Reddit whose biggest defense in the crusade to prove that Dogen was a fraud and a cult leader is using some misunderstood and out of context Bielefeldt quotes. So one day another user emailed Bielefeldt, told him the story and asked if what he meant in his book was that Dogen stole Shobogenzo and that he made up a religion and that he was basically a fraud. Bielefeldt said far from him. He respects Dogen and considers his a great master and a genius.
Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH
Sorry for going over 3 sentences.
My thought is that even if all this Buddhist, Zen, shikantaza stuff turns out to be a sham there is still real benefits to sitting quietly each day and following a handful of common sense guidance on how to conduct oneself.
Tairin
Sat today and lah
Nah.. Stay away. It’s not even worth the “conversations”.
Bion
-------------------------
When you put Buddha’s activity into practice, only then are you a buddha. When you act like a fool, then you’re a fool. - Sawaki Roshi
My thought is that even if all this Buddhist, Zen, shikantaza stuff turns out to be a sham there is still real benefits to sitting quietly each day and following a handful of common sense guidance on how to conduct oneself.
Tairin
Sat today and lah
This
Doshin
St
I think anyone who’s sat zazen for a while can attest to the fact that it is not and can not be a sham. So we’re good to continueMy thought is that even if all this Buddhist, Zen, shikantaza stuff turns out to be a sham there is still real benefits to sitting quietly each day and following a handful of common sense guidance on how to conduct oneself.
Tairin
Sat today and lah
Bion
-------------------------
When you put Buddha’s activity into practice, only then are you a buddha. When you act like a fool, then you’re a fool. - Sawaki Roshi
This is why I have long been drawn to Zen (and Buddhism in general). There is plenty for the intellect to chew on, but at the end of the day, as practitioners, we are like scientists. We must take all the theories, etc. and put them to test in the lab of Zazen.
Gassho,
Rob
-stlah-
Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
聖簡 Seikan (Sacred Simplicity)
Hi Kyoshin,
I am just curious if you meant that the evidence I presented was the gymnastics? Or his response to the evidence?
Granted, there was nobody in the 6th Century who said in clear words, "What I am about to teach is exactly what will be taught by someone in the future named Dogen 600 years from now." There are only hints and traces.
Gassho, J
STLah
ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
My apologies, it was intended as a joke, clearly turned out to be a bad one. I'm not denying Brad's genuity or authenticity. But something struck me in his lengthy response to a certain criticism : maybe is the language and I'm picking on nothing, but as some of you mentioned we don't have to agree with everyone, and not all styles will suit everyone.Gentle speech, nobody to hell.Brad is a good fellow. But some of the Dharma punk folks around his blog back in the day ... my first lesson in the hells of the internet!
Gassho, J
STlah
http://hardcorezen.info/in-which-i-a...iji-temple/287
Gassho
Sat
It’s interesting how many critics fail to consider the context of certain things. Like ignoring the fact that the ancient masters made references to a variety of sutras, clearly assuming their audience (other monks and monastics) were familiar with what they were talking about. Yet they didn’t focus on writing about sutras and chanting. It was clearly part of their daily routine and practice and there was no need in their time and at that moment to address that particular topic. Same goes for the zazen topic. Every single master speaks of zazen in one form or another although the way they address the issue is based on the needs of their monastic communities, thus they were sometimes criticizing those who became overly attached to their zafus and zazen to the point where it became a tool and lacked any substance or sincerity. I believe it was Foyan who spent quite some time criticizing those stuck cross-legged, insisting on the need to attain understanding, on letting go of concepts and judgments, on having faith and trust in the dharma, yet he ends with a chapter dedicated to zazen, detailing how it it to be done and saying: “if you meditate, why not sit and if you sit, why not meditate?”
Only those who choose it can’t see the place zazen has had in Buddhist practice and especially Zen.
So sorry about the extra long reply. I’ll behave from now!
Bion
-------------------------
When you put Buddha’s activity into practice, only then are you a buddha. When you act like a fool, then you’re a fool. - Sawaki Roshi
Sorry for the confusion. I meant that AJ appeared to be doing gymnastics in order to find reasons to be dissatisfied with your answers.
Gassho
Kyōshin
Satlah
Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk
Another small sign of the "roots" of Shikantaza is in the Xin Xin Ming (Inscription on Trust in Mind), a classic chant of the Soto school traditionally attributed to the 3rd Ancestor in Chiina, Sengcan. In fact, it is probably not by Sengcan, but scholars still believe that it is from early on in the Tang Dynasty, maybe 7th-8th century C.E. It has been celebrated in the Zen Lineages for over 1000 years. It certainly expresses the equanimity, non-choosing, neither running toward and entangling with the world nor running away that Master Dogen conveys in Fukanzazengi ...
In Fukanzazengi, he writes:
Some of those lines are from the Xin Xin Ming directly ...FUNDAMENTALLY SPEAKING, the basis of the way is perfectly pervasive ... The vehicle of the ancestors is naturally
unrestricted ... Surely the whole being is far beyond defilement ... And yet, if a hair's breadth of distinction exists, the gap is like that between heaven and earth; once the slightest like or dislike arises, all is confused and the mind is lost. ... Cast aside all involvements and discontinue all affairs. Do not think of good or evil; do not deal with right or wrong. Halt the revolutions of mind, intellect, and consciousness; stop the calculations of thoughts, ideas, and perceptions. Do not intend to make a Buddha, much less be attached to sitting still
Now, if that is not precisely the attitude of sitting in the equanimity of Shikantaza, neither running from the world nor toward it, non-gaining, not discriminating, free of opinions, without aversions [dislikes] and attractions [likes], dropping thoughts, the self/other divide softening or dropping away, nothing felt lacking or in excess, timeless amid time ...The Great Way is not difficult
for those who have no preferences.
When love [likes] and hate [dislikes] are both absent
everything becomes clear and undisguised.
Make a hairbreadth difference, and Heaven and Earth are set apart;
...
If you wish to see the truth
then hold no opinions for or against anything.
To set up what you like against what you dislike
is the disease of the mind.
...
The Way is perfect like vast space
where nothing is lacking and nothing is in excess.
Indeed, it is due to our choosing to accept or reject
that we do not see the true nature of things.
Be serene in the Oneness [wholeness] of things
and such erroneous views will disappear by themselves.
...
When you try to stop activity to achieve passivity
your very effort fills you with activity.
As long as you remain in one extreme or the other,
you will never know [Wholeness].
...
To deny the reality of things is to miss their reality;
to assert the emptiness of things
is to miss their reality.
...
The more you talk and think about it,
the further astray you wander from the truth.
Stop talking and thinking
and there is nothing you will not be able to know.
...
Do not search for the truth;
only cease to cherish opinions.
...
When the mind exists undisturbed in the Way,
nothing in the world can offend,
and when a thing can no longer offend,
it ceases to exist in the old way.
...
When no discriminating thoughts arise,
the old mind ceases to exist.
When thought objects vanish,
the thinking-subject vanishes,
and when the mind vanishes, objects vanish.
Things are objects because there is a subject or mind;
and the mind is a subject because there are objects.
Understand the relativity of these two
and the basic reality: the unity of emptiness.
In this Emptiness the two are indistinguishable
and each contains in itself the whole world.
...
Clinging cannot be limited;
even to be attached to the idea of enlightenment
is to go astray.
Just let things be in their own way
and there will be neither coming nor going.
...
The burdensome practice of judging
brings annoyance and weariness.
What benefit can be derived
from distinctions and separations?
...
If you wish to move in the One Way
do not dislike even the world of senses and ideas.
Indeed, to accept them fully
is identical with true Enlightenment.
...
The wise man strives to no goals
but the foolish man fetters himself.
...
Rest and unrest derive from illusion;
with enlightenment there is no liking and disliking.
All dualities come from ignorant inference.
They are like dreams of flowers in air:
foolish to try to grasp them.
Gain and loss, right and wrong;
such thoughts must finally be abolished at once.
...
If the mind makes no discriminations,
the ten thousand things
are as they are, of single essence.
...
To understand the mystery of this One-essence
is to be released from all entanglements.
...
Consider motion in stillness
and stillness in motion;
both movement and stillness disappear.
When such dualities cease to exist
Oneness itself cannot exist.
To this ultimate finality
no law or description applies.
For the unified mind in accord with the Way
all self-centered striving ceases.
Doubts and irresolutions vanish
and life in true faith is possible.
...
nothing clings to us and we hold to nothing.
All is empty, clear, self-illuminating,
with no exertion of the mind's power.
Here thought, feeling, knowledge, and imagination are of no value.
In this world of Suchness
there is neither self nor other-than-self.
...
To come directly into harmony with this reality
just simply say when doubt arises, "Not two."
In this "not two" nothing is separate,
nothing is excluded.
No matter when or where,
enlightenment means entering this truth.
And this truth is beyond extension or diminution in time or space;
in it a single thought is ten thousand years.
...
Emptiness here, Emptiness there,
but the infinite universe stands always before your eyes.
Infinitely large and infinitely small;
no difference, for definitions have vanished
and no boundaries are seen.
So too with Being and non-Being.
Waste no time in doubts and arguments
that have nothing to do with this.
...
One thing, all things;
move among and intermingle,
without distinction.
To live in this realization
is to be without anxiety about nonperfection.
To live in this faith is the road to nonduality,
because the nondual is one with the trusting mind.
...
Words!
The Way is beyond language,
for in it there is
no yesterday
no tomorrow
no today.
https://terebess.hu/english/hsin.html
I wish Andrew were still here, I would have loved (beyond loves and hates and all debates, of course!) to hear is impression. Could he doubt that the heart of Just Sitting is not here?
(Sorry, ran a bit long).
Gassho, J
STLah
Last edited by Jundo; 09-13-2020 at 01:02 AM.
ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
COMMENT DELETED
Commented deleted for harsh language. We did have complaints, and I concur that it was not appropriate here.
Gassho, Jundo
Last edited by Jundo; 09-13-2020 at 08:59 AM.
穏 On (Calm)
火 Ka (Fires)
They/She.
I wholeheartedly agree and couldn’t have worded this any better, so worth the extra sentences imho
thank you
gassho
risho
-stlah
Last edited by Jundo; 09-13-2020 at 09:00 AM.
There are plenty of good books on the history of Ch'an and Zen, including The Circle of the Way by Barbara O'Brien.COMMENT DELETED
Historical differences between schools serve to illustrate points of practice, and different approaches. Were it not for Dogen's differences with other schools, we might not have Shikantaza and Soto Zen at all and the differences between Rinzai and Soto Zen continue to this day, even as they point to the same thing.
Also, please Onka, it would have been super easy to make your point with less harsh language. There was absolutely no need for the B words.
Apologies for use of more than three sentences.
Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-
Last edited by Jundo; 09-13-2020 at 09:00 AM.
For those playing at home the B word is a working class word for nonsense which is how I was using it, as well as testicles but there are nuances within English working class language that would require a Noam Chomsky lecture to grasp. To working class folk like me the B word is in no way harsh language (my Grandfather was Cockney but Cockney rhyming slang is a whole other beast lol) but hey ho. The historical stuff I was talking about was the BW vs JC stuff that a cursory Google search reveals all kinds of things.
Gassho
Onka
Sat
穏 On (Calm)
火 Ka (Fires)
They/She.
It is a word for nonsense here too but harsh language. I really don't think we need Chomsky or a lecture on working class language but rather a bit of common sense of what is appropriate. If you mean nonsense, say nonsense. Everyone else here seems to manage, regardless of their background.For those playing at home the B word is a working class word for nonsense which is how I was using it, as well as testicles but there are nuances within English working class language that would require a Noam Chomsky lecture to grasp. To working class folk like me the B word is in no way harsh language (my Grandfather was Cockney but Cockney rhyming slang is a whole other beast lol) but hey ho.
It is also very bad form to talk about a teacher like this:
Since we are studying the precepts again, you may wish to pay attention to #6:IMHO BW has some blind spots just as Jundo does.
Not to broadcast the misdeeds or faults of the Buddhist assembly, nor encourage others to do so.
You are not a newbie anymore. We really need more respect and deference and less of the working class anarchist. Deference is not something that comes easily to many of us but is appropriate here and part of training and dropping ego.
Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-
Commented deleted for harsh language. We did have complaints, and I concur that it was not appropriate here.
Gassho, Jundo
ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
Another small sign of the "roots" of Shikantaza is in the Xin Xin Ming (Inscription on Trust in Mind), a classic chant of the Soto school traditionally attributed to the 3rd Ancestor in Chiina, Sengcan. In fact, it is probably not by Sengcan, but scholars still believe that it is from early on in the Tang Dynasty, maybe 7th-8th century C.E. It has been celebrated in the Zen Lineages for over 1000 years. It certainly expresses the equanimity, non-choosing, neither running toward and entangling with the world nor running away that Master Dogen conveys in Fukanzazengi ...
In Fukanzazengi, he writes:
Some of those lines are from the Xin Xin Ming directly ...
Now, if that is not precisely the attitude of sitting in the equanimity of Shikantaza, neither running from the world nor toward it, non-gaining, not discriminating, free of opinions, without aversions [dislikes] and attractions [likes], dropping thoughts, the self/other divide softening or dropping away, nothing felt lacking or in excess, timeless amid time ...
I wish Andrew were still here, I would have loved (beyond loves and hates and all debates, of course!
(Sorry, ran a bit long).
Gassho, J
STLah
"Consider motion in stillness
and stillness in motion;
both movement and stillness disappear." - Shikantanza
It's impossible to give an apple and describe its taste to someone who doesn't want to taste it.
Gassho
Sat
In the last two days I started to understand the meaning of Sangha as a practice. Very valuable lessons since yesterday from all of you.
Gassho
Sat
Thanks Kyoshin but it's all good. As you know language is powerful as well as often loaded. Another discussion for after Ango might be about what role Class has on Buddhism in the West, that and why Buddhism in the West is so white.
Chopping wood, carrying water for me this Ango.
Gassho
Onka
Sat
穏 On (Calm)
火 Ka (Fires)
They/She.
I am mildly surprised by the turn this conversation has taken and by the bickering happening.
Bion
-------------------------
When you put Buddha’s activity into practice, only then are you a buddha. When you act like a fool, then you’re a fool. - Sawaki Roshi
Oh my, what has been going on here? Newbie troll, it looks like.
Gassho,
Kirk
sat
流文
I know nothing.
I don't think that we need scientific studies that prove the benefits of zazen. These studies are looking at physical and mental changes, which may arise with any meditative practice, but that's not the goal of shikantaza.
Taking seriously any conspiracy theory on Reddit is a path to disaster. There are people there who have nothing better to do than to argue with others.
Gassho,
Kirk
sat
流文
I know nothing.
My apologies to everyone, I should have brought up my concern privately. I will delete the comment.
Gassho
Kyōshin
Satlah
Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk
I want to thank all who have participated in this discussion regardless of intention or expression. While I do not condone words that hurt or offend, I have learned much about Zen history and Zen practice--and practitioners--through this discussion. You have all made me grateful to be a part of this sangha.
Gassho,
Hobun
ST
Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk
Hello everyone!
I find that one can eventually trace basic "shikantaza" teachings even back to good ol' Shakyamuni himself, if you really read through the pali tipitaka, there are very many cases where one can see how much stress is made of "SITTING DOWN CROSSLEGGED" (निसीदति, पल्लङ्कं आभुजित्वा) with "BODY ERECT" (उजुं कायं पणिधाय), "JUST OBSERVING", while "SIMPLY KNOWING" (पजानाति) and "RELAXING/LETTING GO" (पस्स even of "NIBBANA" itself!), to finally, being RID OF DESIRE AND ADVERSION FOR ANYTHING IN THE WORLD (विनेय्य लोके अभिज्झा दोमनस्सं) and MAKE AN END TO SUFFERING. (Check for sure, amongst so many other early texts, the 'twin' ANAPANASATI & SATIPATTHANA SUTTA -two of the most, if not THE most, detailed texts on sitting meditation we are left with among the Buddha's original teachings- as well as the MULAPARIYAYA SUTTA. Respectively suttas number 118, 10 and 1 of the Majjhimanikaya collection of discourses.)
Never forget, also, that he (Buddha) completely woke up (realized enlightenment), only when he let go of the "way-seeking mind" itself (which included a good amount of kinds of different meditation techniques existing at his time in india, which he personally tried, but felt they failed as to make an end to suffering) and sat under the bodhi-tree with the very same actitude he had once when only a child, when he ran away from the crowd attending a festival and sat under a rose-apple tree, finally free of anxieties and ideas of achievement, but open minded (and hearted).
But I will leave you with just these two much interesting (to me) quotations from those very early suttas as well...
1) फस्सद्वयं सुखदुक्खे उपेक्खे
अनानुरुद्धो अविरुद्ध केनचि लोके
Look with equanimity at the duality of painful and pleasant contacts, without favoring or opposing anything. (Samyutta Nikaya 35,95)
Doesn't this sound shockingly similar to the first two verses of the Hin Hsin Ming? Which is shockingly similar, in its turn, to the "basic shikantaza tachings", for that matter...
And...:
2) तस्स सम्मा विमुत्तस्स
सन्तचित्तस्स भिक्खुनो
कतस्स पटिचयो नत्थि
करणीयं न विज्जति
For that one, rightly freed,
a practitioner with peaceful mind,
there’s nothing to be improved,
and nothing more to do. (Anguttara Nikaya 6.55)
Reminds me a bit of "mushotoku", doesn't it?
Anyway, as I already stated, there are sooooo many exemples of "shikantaza" teachings in the first pali suttas!!! One just has to go and read with open mind and heart...and experience in practice also...that is fundamental!
I think...
Gassho.
Hokin.
ST.
I moved most of the discussion on teachers and students to its own thread here:
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...Western-Sangha
ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
Oh, thank you Hokin, this is an important post. In an earlier discussion with A.J., I also pointed out some scholars' descriptions of "Jhana of the Suttas" vs. "Jhana in the later commentaries":
More here:By the way, Andrew, you might be interested in the history and examination of Jhana and samadhi by Richard Shankman. He makes the argument that the Fourth Jhana, originally the highest, is actually a putting aside of blissful and highly concentrated states in favor of equanimious sitting with a sense of wholeness, at least as described in the Suttas before the Vishudimagga and other commentaries (perhaps under the influence of Bhraman/Hindu practices which the Buddha originally may have rejected) turned the meaning of Jhana to some kinds of deeply concentrated and blissful, even other worldly states:
"Just Sitting" Shikantaza which we practice at Treeleaf is placed in historical context perhaps closer to the intent of the older Pali Suttas for "open, spacious, aware samadhi which thus brings insight" than other later forms.
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...l=1#post266905
and
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...l=1#post266908
Gassho, J
SatTodayLAH
PS - Hokin, I am really impressed with how you got all that fancy writing in our Forum! I didn't know you could read Hebrew!
ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
Chan School split into Southern and Northern schools when the 5th patriarch passed down his robe to the 6th patriarch and asked him to traveled down south to avoid persecution. The 6th patriarch in general view promoted Sudden Enlightenment while the other disciple of the 5th patriarch went North preached gradual enlightenment. Any misunderstanding on my part please make correction...
Gassho,
Judy
SAT
Hi Judy,
It is now generally agreed by historians that this is not really an historical fact, but more a legend which developed to justify the folks (all modern Zen schools) who derive their Lineage from the 6th Patriarch, Hui-Neng (who, by the way, is not a fully historical figure, although there was someone who lived by that name). In fact, both "North" and "South," and all the Zen schools today, have elements that are BOTH sudden and gradual in enlightenment and practice (e.g., that one may suddenly realize wisdom in a moment or many moments, but must slowly refine this fact over time).
Even though not quite "historical fact," the story and symbolism of Hui-Neng are very important to us.
https://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays...s_in_Chan.html
Gassho, Jundo
STLah
Last edited by Jundo; 09-19-2020 at 07:06 PM.
ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
Thank you Jundo! Apparently I know only the Chen's side of the story in Mandarin.
Gassho,
Judy Sat
Last edited by Jundo; 09-19-2020 at 07:06 PM.
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