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Thread: Kōshō Uchiyama and Randomness

  1. #1

    Kōshō Uchiyama and Randomness

    Kōshō Uchiyama in his book Opening the Hand of Thought talks about randomness within karmic order and this got me intrigued, because sometimes during Zazen there's vast space within which occasionally a single image or a thought appears, popping up like a balloon and disappearing instantly.
    Theese can be surprisingly random, like an animated glass of beer with smily face, and it can just disappear or become something else if I chose to relate to it, eg. by investigating where and why it came from, creating a story and maybe even resulting in me having some beer later on in the day.
    "Form is Emptiness
    Emptiness is Form" (form is form, emptiness is emptiness) - is samsara created by RELATING to form whithin emptiness?



    Forgive my unscientific language, and weird example, it's all coming from my limited experience

    Gassho
    Sat

  2. #2
    But they only seem random; they arise because of some connection in the mind that we can't see.

    I find the most surprising version of this is when I'm taking a nap, just before falling asleep - or sometimes when I don't fully fall asleep - in what's called hypnogogic hallucinations. They can be long, almost cinematic stories that play out in my mind. Maybe they are a glimpse of another reality, another universe; or maybe it's just the mind mixing things up.

    Gassho,

    Kirk

    sat
    流文

    I know nothing.

  3. #3
    Hi Ania

    I agree with Kirk that things appear random but are the result of a complex web of cause and effect (known as pratītyasamutpāda or dependent arising) which can produce results we are not expecting. Some of those might just be a product of the way the brain and visual system works.

    But, when we sit and they appear, it can certainly be perceived as random as we wondering why a certain sound, smell or image has suddenly appeared in our brain!

    As far as samsara goes in relation to form and emptiness, I would personally say that where we get trapped is in failing to see that form is a product of emptiness (all of those complex webs of interaction again which mean that nothing has an independent identity) and rather take it as real and solid not a passing phenomenon arising from causes and conditions.

    This is why this stanza from The Heart Sutra is so important and central to Buddhist thinking:

    ruupam shuunyataa form is emptiness
    shuunyataiva ruupam emptiness is form
    ruupaan na prithak shuunyataa form is not other than emptiness
    shuunyataayaa na prithag ruupam emptiness is not other than form

    I see this as looking at phenomena from two directions. Firstly, if we look at individual forms, such as a tree, a dog or even an Ania, we can see that they are the product of many different causes that come together to produce that form.

    Then, if we look at all phenomena in terms of the totality of existence throughout space and time, we see that this manifests as individual forms, such as trees, dogs and Anias.

    Looking at either the totality or the individual forms is only ever half of the picture. By seeing the whole and the individual we understand how everything arises and passes away not separate from everything that is. When we chant The Identity of Relative and Absolute (Sandokai) in each four hour Zazenkai, this chant is talking about precisely this.

    Apologies for vastly exceeding my three sentence allocation.

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    -sattoday-
    Last edited by Kokuu; 09-08-2020 at 03:12 PM.

  4. #4
    I doubt that Uchiyama would partake of any alcohol knowing that alcohol causes alcoholic ramifications.
    Gassho
    sat
    Tai Shi


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Peaceful Poet, Tai Shi. Ubasoku; calm, supportive, limited to positive 優婆塞 台 婆

  5. #5
    Thank you Kirk and Kokuu. That is how I also understood this until I read the following from Kosho Uchiyama.

    "I’ve mentioned that there are two types of realities, the one being
    accidental reality and the other being undeniable reality. When you think
    about it, I myself am just an accidental reality. After all, there is nothing
    that says I had to be born in twentieth-century Japan. I could just as wellhave been born in ancient Egypt, or Papua New Guinea, or indeed not
    have been born at all. In other words, being born in any age or in any
    place is a possibility, an accident, just as my being here right now is an
    accident.
    From that we can say, then, that all the things I see in my world, and
    the world itself taking shape as I create it, are also an accident."
    "What we call “I” or “ego” arises by chance or accident, so we just let go
    instead of grasping thoughts and “I.” When we let go of all our notions
    about things, everything becomes really true. This is the fourth
    undeniable reality, complete tranquillity, or nehan jakujō. It is also
    described as “all things are as they are,” shohō jissō. Therefore, when we let
    go of everything, we do not create artificial attachments and connections.
    Everything is as it is. Everything exists in one accidental way or another.
    This is the present reality of life. It is the reality of that which cannot be
    grasped, the reality about which nothing can be said. This very
    ungraspability is what is absolutely real about things."

    Appologies for this quote going over 3 sentence.

    Gassho
    Sat

  6. #6
    I’m wondering if writers in this thread could condense writing to 3 or 3.5 lines as Jundo suggested. It’s a challenge?
    Gassho
    sat
    Tai Shi


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Peaceful Poet, Tai Shi. Ubasoku; calm, supportive, limited to positive 優婆塞 台 婆

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Tai Shi View Post
    I’m wondering if writers in this thread could condense writing to 3 or 3.5 lines as Jundo suggested. It’s a challenge?
    Gassho
    sat
    Tai Shi
    Mine. Was. Only four sentences.

    Gassho,

    Kirk

    sat
    流文

    I know nothing.

  8. #8
    Since a writing and reading journal are part of my contemplation I see no contradiction so writing is contemplation.
    Gassho
    sat
    Tai Shi


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Peaceful Poet, Tai Shi. Ubasoku; calm, supportive, limited to positive 優婆塞 台 婆

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Tai Shi View Post
    I’m wondering if writers in this thread could condense writing to 3 or 3.5 lines as Jundo suggested. It’s a challenge?
    Gassho
    sat
    Tai Shi


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


    If anyone would like to express their thoughts about this thread in more than 3 sentences please feel free to PM me
    Gassho
    Sat

  10. #10
    Hi Ania

    I think Uchiyama is talking about the same thing we all are, in different terms. Accidental reality is all things that are produced by dependent arising i.e. all conditioned phenomena.

    However, when we sit and let go of all ideas about things, we just let them be as they are, and stop putting labels on things (=absolute reality)

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    -sattoday-

  11. #11
    I doubt that Uchiyama would partake of any alcohol knowing that alcohol causes alcoholic ramifications
    I don't know, Tai Shi. Quite a few Zen teachers were fond of a wee tipple and sometimes more!

    Alcohol can sometimes lead to alcoholism and sometimes it is just one drink every now and again.

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    -sattoday-

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokuu View Post
    Hi Ania

    I agree with Kirk that things appear random but are the result of a complex web of cause and effect (known as pratītyasamutpāda or dependent arising) which can produce results we are not expecting. Some of those might just be a product of the way the brain and visual system works.

    But, when we sit and they appear, it can certainly be perceived as random as we wondering why a certain sound, smell or image has suddenly appeared in our brain!

    As far as samsara goes in relation to form and emptiness, I would personally say that where we get trapped is in failing to see that form is a product of emptiness (all of those complex webs of interaction again which mean that nothing has an independent identity) and rather take it as real and solid not a passing phenomenon arising from causes and conditions.

    This is why this stanza from The Heart Sutra is so important and central to Buddhist thinking:

    ruupam shuunyataa form is emptiness
    shuunyataiva ruupam emptiness is form
    ruupaan na prithak shuunyataa form is not other than emptiness
    shuunyataayaa na prithag ruupam emptiness is not other than form

    I see this as looking at phenomena from two directions. Firstly, if we look at individual forms, such as a tree, a dog or even an Ania, we can see that they are the product of many different causes that come together to produce that form.

    Then, if we look at all phenomena in terms of the totality of existence throughout space and time, we see that this manifests as individual forms, such as trees, dogs and Anias.

    Looking at either the totality or the individual forms is only ever half of the picture. By seeing the whole and the individual we understand how everything arises and passes away not separate from everything that is. When we chant The Identity of Relative and Absolute (Sandokai) in each four hour Zazenkai, this chant is talking about precisely this.

    Apologies for vastly exceeding my three sentence allocation.

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    -sattoday-
    A most excellent explanation of that tricky concept Kokuu!
    Thank you friend.
    Gassho
    Meitou
    Sattoday lah
    命 Mei - life
    島 Tou - island

  13. #13
    It’s time for me to admit I’m wrong, and as any Zenie junkie it’s possible to get caught up in the rule and not the spirit. Yes, I wrote militiamen comments of more than a total, and a lot more, but I’m now saying tha as Littlejohn author of my first book of contemplation, The 12-step Buddhist, remarks in another way, his long term therapist is a Zen practicing therapist and his editorial advisor is Professor of Buddhist, Zen, studies at Columbia University, we sometimes fail to see need for an eclectic approach to our “whole” lives. Littlejohn suggests that so many of us talk the talk and fail to walk the walk. I became addicted to a particular prescription pain killer while claiming to be sober. Not so drastic but equally as devastating is the student of Zen who eats too much sugar, showers too much, spends into debt unfathomable, drives their car in excess of speed limits, beats children, hits animals, demands love when none is deserved, the list goes on and on. Littlejohn suggests that most of us can benefit from psychotherapy, primary care doctors or psychiatrists, and many are in need with the help of a doctor, psychoactive medications; he says so many are addicted to food, caffein, pop, substances we might not think, and he says all of us can benefit frome wholesome food and exercise. In other words, as a good Buddhist we can strive to be as healthy as possible. As the Literature of recovery states, reaching for a life preserver as “only the drowning” can. This is the state in which even the longtime recovery can bring us to.
    Gassho
    sat
    Tai Shi


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Peaceful Poet, Tai Shi. Ubasoku; calm, supportive, limited to positive 優婆塞 台 婆

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Ania View Post
    because sometimes during Zazen there's vast space within which occasionally a single image or a thought appears, popping up like a balloon and disappearing instantly.

    Theese can be surprisingly random, like an animated glass of beer with smily face, and it can just disappear or become something else if I chose to relate to it, eg. by investigating where and why it came from, creating a story and maybe even resulting in me having some beer later on in the day.
    I'm curious, do you mean that when you sit Zazen you often have a blank mind so to speak? For me, doesn't matter if I'm sitting Zazen or not there is always a bunch of random thoughts popping into my mind. Without fail there is a song playing, and sometimes my brain will go to something random like a funny joke, or sometimes it will just go to something related to my job/something that happened recently, I don't think I've ever had a quiet moment in my head that lasted more than 5 seconds. I'm assuming that has something to do with me having ADHD. The only time I don't find this happening is if I'm concentrating on something like work with high intensity, and even then it's not guaranteed.

    Apologies for going over 3 sentences


    Evan,
    Sat today, lah
    Just going through life one day at a time!

  15. #15
    So the aim in Zazen is blankness? Does this not raise blank to special place. Is not blank the goal not the hole less goal?
    Gassho
    sat
    Tai Shi


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Peaceful Poet, Tai Shi. Ubasoku; calm, supportive, limited to positive 優婆塞 台 婆

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Tai Shi View Post
    So the aim in Zazen is blankness? Does this not raise blank to special place. Is not blank the goal not the hole less goal?
    Gassho
    sat
    Tai Shi


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I wouldn’t say the aim is blankness at all, since we can’t stop thinking and it happens whether we want it to or not. Allowing it to happen, recognizing it but not reacting to it is what we aim for. Whenever we latch on to a thought, we should aim to let go of it and just think the thought of zazen and then zazen will think its own thoughts.

    SatToday lah
    Bion
    -------------------------
    When you put Buddha’s activity into practice, only then are you a buddha. When you act like a fool, then you’re a fool. - Sawaki Roshi

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by gaurdianaq View Post
    I'm curious, do you mean that when you sit Zazen you often have a blank mind so to speak? For me, doesn't matter if I'm sitting Zazen or not there is always a bunch of random thoughts popping into my mind. Without fail there is a song playing, and sometimes my brain will go to something random like a funny joke, or sometimes it will just go to something related to my job/something that happened recently, I don't think I've ever had a quiet moment in my head that lasted more than 5 seconds. I'm assuming that has something to do with me having ADHD. The only time I don't find this happening is if I'm concentrating on something like work with high intensity, and even then it's not guaranteed.

    Apologies for going over 3 sentences


    Evan,
    Sat today, lah
    I wouldn't describe it as blankness, and I don't believe that blankness is a goal of Zazen, since Zazen is goalless, so I let everything be as it is.
    It's just happens sometimes as sort of "active/or alive stillness without internal monologue but merely "seeds" of thoughts or images appear occasionally and dissappear immediately.
    They can be grasped and then it becomes internal story/monologue, since my curiosity about randomness.

    Gassho
    Sat

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by gaurdianaq View Post
    I'm curious, do you mean that when you sit Zazen you often have a blank mind so to speak? For me, doesn't matter if I'm sitting Zazen or not there is always a bunch of random thoughts popping into my mind. Without fail there is a song playing, and sometimes my brain will go to something random like a funny joke, or sometimes it will just go to something related to my job/something that happened recently, I don't think I've ever had a quiet moment in my head that lasted more than 5 seconds. I'm assuming that has something to do with me having ADHD. The only time I don't find this happening is if I'm concentrating on something like work with high intensity, and even then it's not guaranteed.

    Apologies for going over 3 sentences


    Evan,
    Sat today, lah
    I'm not any specialist, so I may wrong, but I suspect that the only difference in ADHD is that you experience throughs happening faster and seemingly more random. But also for you there has to be a moment before a thought arise - it fascinates me to observe this happening.
    And again - who is observing?
    Gassho
    Sat

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Ania View Post
    I wouldn't describe it as blankness, and I don't believe that blankness is a goal of Zazen, since Zazen is goalless, so I let everything be as it is.
    It's just happens sometimes as sort of "active/or alive stillness without internal monologue but merely "seeds" of thoughts or images appear occasionally and dissappear immediately.
    They can be grasped and then it becomes internal story/monologue, since my curiosity about randomness.

    Gassho
    Sat
    I don't mean blankness/stillness as a goal, it's just a foreign concept for me to ever truly have a still mind. I just tend to try to ignore the noise (imagine someone constantly talking your ear off/playing songs, you don't tell them to go away, but you also don't respond, that's how I tend to find my Zazen)

    I'm not any specialist, so I may wrong, but I suspect that the only difference in ADHD is that you experience throughs happening faster and seemingly more random. But also for you there has to be a moment before a thought arise - it fascinates me to observe this happening.
    If there is, it's so small that it's not really perceptible. Mainly feels like a constant stream of thoughts, just like how a river is never really still.


    Evan,
    Sat today, lah
    Last edited by gaurdianaq; 09-08-2020 at 06:37 PM.
    Just going through life one day at a time!

  20. #20
    I'm curious, do you mean that when you sit Zazen you often have a blank mind so to speak?
    As others have said, a blank mind is not the aim of Zazen.

    However, we may notice that thoughts and other sensations are coming and going in open awareness.

    In terms of an often used metaphor for meditation, we notice both the clouds and the sky, the thoughts and the awareness they occur in.

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    -sattoday-

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokuu View Post
    As others have said, a blank mind is not the aim of Zazen.

    However, we may notice that thoughts and other sensations are coming and going in open awareness.

    In terms of an often used metaphor for meditation, we notice both the clouds and the sky, the thoughts and the awareness they occur in.

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    -sattoday-
    Just to clarify, I wasn't asking about a blank mind as the goal. I was asking if people have actual moments of quiet in their mind when they sit. (Or even when they aren't sitting)


    Evan,
    Sat today, lah
    Last edited by gaurdianaq; 09-08-2020 at 07:07 PM.
    Just going through life one day at a time!

  22. #22
    Yes I see not placing it above or below. Letting it happen as Jundo and scenery.
    Gassho


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Peaceful Poet, Tai Shi. Ubasoku; calm, supportive, limited to positive 優婆塞 台 婆

  23. #23
    Just to clarify, I wasn't asking about a blank mind as the goal. I was asking if people have actual moments of quiet in their mind when they sit. (Or even when they aren't sitting)
    Ah, okay! Thank you for clarifying.

    In that case, the answer is sometimes.

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    -sattoday-

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by gaurdianaq View Post
    Just to clarify, I wasn't asking about a blank mind as the goal. I was asking if people have actual moments of quiet in their mind when they sit. (Or even when they aren't sitting)


    Evan,
    Sat today, lah
    It is very important to define “quiet” before accepting answers, because your quiet might not be my quieto or someone else’s. What’s important to remember about zazen is that it is your alone and new every single time you sit, so the zazen from yesterday has nothing to do with that of today and tomorrow and whether your thought were scattered, chaotic, organized or calm, the zazen was complete with nothing lacking.
    To give you a straightforward answer from my experience: to me, quiet means focused on being focused, or rather thinking just the thought of zazen. Awareness of the posture, of tension and tenseness, of breath and senses and no interaction with the thoughts. I remain i that state more often than in an agitated state. And as soon as I catch the mind grabbing thoughts, I go back to my breath, the mudra and the posture.


    So sorry about the extra sentences! I couldn’t say all that in less phrases.

    SatToday lah
    Bion
    -------------------------
    When you put Buddha’s activity into practice, only then are you a buddha. When you act like a fool, then you’re a fool. - Sawaki Roshi

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by jakeb View Post
    It is very important to define “quiet” before accepting answers, because your quiet might not be my quieto or someone else’s. What’s important to remember about zazen is that it is your alone and new every single time you sit, so the zazen from yesterday has nothing to do with that of today and tomorrow and whether your thought were scattered, chaotic, organized or calm, the zazen was complete with nothing lacking.
    To give you a straightforward answer from my experience: to me, quiet means focused on being focused, or rather thinking just the thought of zazen. Awareness of the posture, of tension and tenseness, of breath and senses and no interaction with the thoughts. I remain i that state more often than in an agitated state. And as soon as I catch the mind grabbing thoughts, I go back to my breath, the mudra and the posture.


    So sorry about the extra sentences! I couldn’t say all that in less phrases.

    SatToday lah
    Quiet means not having a song playing on loop, a period where there isn't some random thought going through the mind. Even if that period is just 5 seconds.


    Evan,
    Sat today, lah
    Just going through life one day at a time!

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by gaurdianaq View Post
    Quiet means not having a song playing on loop, a period where there isn't some random thought going through the mind. Even if that period is just 5 seconds.


    Evan,
    Sat today, lah
    In my experience, there is always a thought Evan, even if it’s the thought of zazen. In your case, your ADHD makes the experience so much more personal but whatever the rest of us experience might not happen to you and that is fine. If a song starts playing in your mind, go back to your breath and follow it a bit and if the song starts again do a whole body scan.. check for posture, check the mudra, figure out where there is tenseness and stay with the present moment focusing on being focused but try not to give too much importance to “quietness”.

    SatToday lah
    Bion
    -------------------------
    When you put Buddha’s activity into practice, only then are you a buddha. When you act like a fool, then you’re a fool. - Sawaki Roshi

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by jakeb View Post
    In my experience, there is always a thought Evan, even if it’s the thought of zazen. In your case, your ADHD makes the experience so much more personal but whatever the rest of us experience might not happen to you and that is fine. If a song starts playing in your mind, go back to your breath and follow it a bit and if the song starts again do a whole body scan.. check for posture, check the mudra, figure out where there is tenseness and stay with the present moment focusing on being focused but try not to give too much importance to “quietness”.

    SatToday lah
    Sorry just to clarify, I wasn't specifically asking for Zazen advice, I was just curious to learn more about others experiences. It's just something I've been curious about, do some people actually have quiet moments where there isn't some thought/inner monologue going on in their mind (regardless of Zazen). Anias original post made it sound like that might have been the case (though I could have misread). I've long since accepted that I will never have a quiet mind.


    Evan,
    Sat today, lah
    Just going through life one day at a time!

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by gaurdianaq View Post
    Sorry just to clarify, I wasn't specifically asking for Zazen advice, I was just curious to learn more about others experiences. It's just something I've been curious about, do some people actually have quiet moments where there isn't some thought/inner monologue going on in their mind (regardless of Zazen). Anias original post made it sound like that might have been the case (though I could have misread). I've long since accepted that I will never have a quiet mind.


    Evan,
    Sat today, lah
    Got it. Sorry! I wasn’t meaning to give advice even though I slipped into it.

    SatToday lah
    Bion
    -------------------------
    When you put Buddha’s activity into practice, only then are you a buddha. When you act like a fool, then you’re a fool. - Sawaki Roshi

  29. #29

    Kōshō Uchiyama and Randomness

    This is not a Game of Thrones or any other but I do appreciate the quiet mind. When I have been leaving an uncomfortable mind set or entering antithesis gas or IV, or medical
    treatment it’s helped to remember Jundo’s advice to me. Chant to myself a “Judeo/Christian” prayer then count my breathing. This helps me calm and enter the “highway” with my “car” and ease Into my experience noticing scenery left and right. Jundo’s metaphors and my own experience bring me into Shikantaza. For others another chant might work just as well.
    Gassho
    sat / lah
    Tai Shi
    Peaceful Poet, Tai Shi. Ubasoku; calm, supportive, limited to positive 優婆塞 台 婆

  30. #30
    From here on out, for a while, if not for good, I’ll try for “good” I’ll keep commentary to 3 lines. Jundo’s good to me.
    Gassho
    sat / lah
    Tai Shi


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Peaceful Poet, Tai Shi. Ubasoku; calm, supportive, limited to positive 優婆塞 台 婆

  31. #31
    I think Kirk is partially right, partially because for a hypnogogic image to be present I think you have to be nearly asleep (I have them often before bed time and at times during zazen, when I am very sleepy). Just maybe, it is only a natural response of your brain: it craves information and when it won't receive any because you are staring at a wall, it will create some of its own. I suppose, from a Buddhist perspective, look at them and pass on, without grasping these images?

    Gassho,
    Mags
    ST

    PS I love how random these images can get, they are very interesting and at times they can include other senses as well.

  32. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by gaurdianaq View Post
    Just to clarify, I wasn't asking about a blank mind as the goal. I was asking if people have actual moments of quiet in their mind when they sit. (Or even when they aren't sitting)


    Evan,
    Sat today, lah
    I do have them, but they won't last too long. At the beginning that's what I was aiming for, no more now. I just try not to cling to my thoughts, bring back my attention to the breath, the posture, the hara.

    Gassho,
    Mags
    ST

    PS I apologise but I realised I missed the non-zazen part! Maybe I should go to bed. Anyway, Yes, I have these moments at times but they don't last long, I try to concentrate on my hara and breath when walking or doing other activities. Not all the time, though...
    Last edited by Margherita; 09-08-2020 at 10:04 PM.

  33. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Margherita View Post
    I do have them, but they won't last too long. At the beginning that's what I was aiming for, no more now. I just try not to cling to my thoughts, bring back my attention to the breath, the posture, the hara.

    Gassho,
    Mags
    ST

    PS I apologise but I realised I missed the non-zazen part! Maybe I should go to bed. Anyway, Yes, I have these moments at times but they don't last long, I try to concentrate on my hara and breath when walking or doing other activities. Not all the time, though...
    Interesting, how long is not long? Like few seconds, or a few minutes? (Also sleep well!)


    Evan,
    Sat today, lah
    Just going through life one day at a time!

  34. #34
    That not clinging and not avoiding is the true calm beyond calm and stormy. zazen is weird sometimes; sometimes it’s stormy sometimes it’s calm; sometimes it’s serene, and you really, really want to stay there, but it’s just the mind doing it’s thing. There is a point where calm is just calm and stormy is stormy; you sit literally beyond the calm and the stormy (or the dark and stormy lol) which is a deep calm or abiding; it’s that dropping of preferences; letting whatever comes up come up; then again it’s just the scenery of zazen (I think that is a phrase Uchiyama roshi would say); my mind is wily and will always try to latch onto something; gotta keep an eye on it. lol

    It’s kind of interesting: zazen teaches you to maybe not believe what you think so much; my mind us always throwing up crap. For example, “I’m bored” or I’m not good enough” or “I’m the best”. None of those are really true.

    Apologies for the extra sentences

    gassho

    risho
    -stlah

  35. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by gaurdianaq View Post
    do some people actually have quiet moments where there isn't some thought/inner monologue going on in their mind (regardless of Zazen).
    Yes occasionally it happens to me during Zazen where I’ll suddenly realize I’ve been sitting still with a quiet mind for some period of time (could be seconds or minutes) It isn’t a forced thing, it just happens occasionally. Of course as soon as I realize it has happened it is gone.

    Admittedly it is nice while it occurs but I try to not cling to those moments.


    Tairin
    Sat today and lah
    泰林 - Tai Rin - Peaceful Woods

  36. #36
    We should be a little cautious about falling into too much intellectual thinking and mental wheel turning on this.

    Thoughts come and go in Zazen, just do not grab them or become entangled, just let them go. Sometimes there are also wide open spaces between thoughts, clear and still, in which nothing really is being thought, maybe just a kind of bare consciousness. Cherish the clear and silent spaces. However, also know that both are fine, and that both thoughts and spaces are the very same boundless, open, unobstructed sky. Know the clear, still and boundless that shines even through the passing thoughts. Risho and Tairin say it so nicely.

    Strange images or thoughts sometimes arise in Zazen, like the smiley beer glass. Just let it go too. However, on the philosophical question of whether it is caused or "random," both Buddhism and physics leave room for debate. Oh there may be various intersecting causes (e.g., a beer commercial you saw months before which made you smile, your tiredness, the temperature in the room, what you ate for dinner which is upsetting your stomach, and 1001 other factors), but our human lives are the intersection point of so many factors coming together in a particular place and time in nearly chaotic fashion, emergence of properties very different from their constituent elements (e.g., how hydrogen and oxygen somehow become a "snow storm"), any quantum randomness and just blind luck, that life may be "random" in great aspect, or for all intents and purposes. Did we end up in this life, on this planet, because it is foretold in a "Great Book" somewhere, or are we basically a cosmic hiccup and roll of the dice, or something else?

    In any case, here we find ourselves, living and dreaming. Live and dream well. If finding oneself near a stream with a pail in hand, dream or not, fetch water.

    It is very simple to realize that one has been dreaming strange dreams when we wake up in the morning. It is much harder for human beings to "awaken" to realize that this ordinary, seemingly solid daytime world is also a dream.

    (Sorry, I dreamt more than 3 sentences)

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 09-09-2020 at 01:49 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  37. #37
    I don’t believe in 1/2 image when it comes to Zen. Shikantaza is not hypnogogic nor dream like, nor some state 1/2 between wake and sleep.
    Gassho
    sat / lah
    Tai Shi


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Peaceful Poet, Tai Shi. Ubasoku; calm, supportive, limited to positive 優婆塞 台 婆

  38. #38
    Or is it?
    Gassho/ sat/ lah/ Tai Shi


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Peaceful Poet, Tai Shi. Ubasoku; calm, supportive, limited to positive 優婆塞 台 婆

  39. #39
    thank you Jundo for that post/teaching; I’m really diggin’ on that dream theme lately

    gassho

    risho
    -stlah

  40. #40
    Thank you Jundo. There is SO much in your final paragraph, clearly stated.

    Gassho,

    Peter

    ST
    東西 - Tōsei - East West
    there is only what is, and it is all miraculous

  41. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Ania View Post
    Thank you Kirk and Kokuu. That is how I also understood this until I read the following from Kosho Uchiyama.

    "I’ve mentioned that there are two types of realities, the one being
    accidental reality and the other being undeniable reality. When you think
    about it, I myself am just an accidental reality. After all, there is nothing
    that says I had to be born in twentieth-century Japan. I could just as wellhave been born in ancient Egypt, or Papua New Guinea, or indeed not
    have been born at all. In other words, being born in any age or in any
    place is a possibility, an accident, just as my being here right now is an
    accident.
    From that we can say, then, that all the things I see in my world, and
    the world itself taking shape as I create it, are also an accident."
    "What we call “I” or “ego” arises by chance or accident, so we just let go
    instead of grasping thoughts and “I.” When we let go of all our notions
    about things, everything becomes really true. This is the fourth
    undeniable reality, complete tranquillity, or nehan jakujō. It is also
    described as “all things are as they are,” shohō jissō. Therefore, when we let
    go of everything, we do not create artificial attachments and connections.
    Everything is as it is. Everything exists in one accidental way or another.
    This is the present reality of life. It is the reality of that which cannot be
    grasped, the reality about which nothing can be said. This very
    ungraspability is what is absolutely real about things."

    Appologies for this quote going over 3 sentence.

    Gassho
    Sat
    A lot of threads within this thread but I might suggest that it is key not to mix up the relative and absolute (albeit two sides of one coin) and in introducing different levels
    Uchiyama implies that tranquility of thought (a mind that is 'quiet' - not attaching to labelling/differentiation) is to be located within the 'Ultimate' and therefore possibly has a transcendent aspect - as the mind is rising above our everyday racing thoughts - whilst not denying that the everyday aspect of mind exists. For myself, I only ever have brief glimpses of tranquility so not at the level of acceptance that that which can not be named 'is what is absolutely real about things'. I live most of life within the 'great doubt' that paradoxically enthuses my practice.

    This doubt tells me that it is possibly unwise to underplay the substantiality of the accident that is 'I' as it materializes in our relative world and also to note the western version of 'ego' or 'I' is rather different to that expressed in eastern religions and as a result certain implications seem to get lost in translation. I feel its tenuous to see everything in our relative world as based on artificial connections - and it's really worth investigating why we need to make such a differentiation?

    Sorry - too many words but not enough to fully express where I'm going with this.

    Gassho

    Jinyo

    Sat today

  42. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    We should be a little cautious about falling into too much intellectual thinking and mental wheel turning on this.

    Thoughts come and go in Zazen, just do not grab them or become entangled, just let them go. Sometimes there are also wide open spaces between thoughts, clear and still, in which nothing really is being thought, maybe just a kind of bare consciousness. Cherish the clear and silent spaces. However, also know that both are fine, and that both thoughts and spaces are the very same boundless, open, unobstructed sky. Know the clear, still and boundless that shines even through the passing thoughts. Risho and Tairin say it so nicely.

    Strange images or thoughts sometimes arise in Zazen, like the smiley beer glass. Just let it go too. However, on the philosophical question of whether it is caused or "random," both Buddhism and physics leave room for debate. Oh there may be various intersecting causes (e.g., a beer commercial you saw months before which made you smile, your tiredness, the temperature in the room, what you ate for dinner which is upsetting your stomach, and 1001 other factors), but our human lives are the intersection point of so many factors coming together in a particular place and time in nearly chaotic fashion, emergence of properties very different from their constituent elements (e.g., how hydrogen and oxygen somehow become a "snow storm"), any quantum randomness and just blind luck, that life may be "random" in great aspect, or for all intents and purposes. Did we end up in this life, on this planet, because it is foretold in a "Great Book" somewhere, or are we basically a cosmic hiccup and roll of the dice, or something else?

    In any case, here we find ourselves, living and dreaming. Live and dream well. If finding oneself near a stream with a pail in hand, dream or not, fetch water.

    It is very simple to realize that one has been dreaming strange dreams when we wake up in the morning. It is much harder for human beings to "awaken" to realize that this ordinary, seemingly solid daytime world is also a dream.

    (Sorry, I dreamt more than 3 sentences)

    Gassho, J

    STLah


    Things are as they are in suchness, form is emptiness, emptiness is form and we know that samsara is a delusion, fixation of something that is impermanent, but How dose it happen, how this dualism/division happens : is it in the process of relating to the form within emptiness?
    Two particles with different properties are as they are, but when they start to relate to each other (for whatever reason, chance/predisposition) they change, and it is the same with us.
    It is fascinating because it can be experienced in meditation and daily life : in the last year I've noticed massive shift in the way I relate to the world (similar stories to Jundo's flat tire) particularly with people. There's this one person to whom I always felt resentment because she wouldn't and didn't try to change. It is only when I discovered that I can relate to her in a different way she did change, as by miracle and we have the best relationship we ever had. Things are as they are and there are many different ways we can relate to them, in this creative process we dance our samsara. I guess?

    Forgive my curious ego going over 3 sentences.

    Gassho
    Sat

  43. #43
    hings are as they are in suchness, form is emptiness, emptiness is form and we know that samsara is a delusion, fixation of something that is impermanent, but How dose it happen, how this dualism/division happens : is it in the process of relating to the form within emptiness?
    Hi Ania

    As I understand it, form is not a delusion itself, but seeing form as fixed and solid rather than dependently-arisen and in flux is the delusion.

    In navigating daily life we need to have names for things and people, but suffering occurs once we have mental images of how we expect things to behave that we relate to and we become upset when they don't meet our expectations.

    If we meet people and things as they are rather than as we want them to be, life becomes much easier, as I think you have found with your co-worker.

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    -sattoday-

  44. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by gaurdianaq View Post
    Sorry just to clarify, I wasn't specifically asking for Zazen advice, I was just curious to learn more about others experiences. It's just something I've been curious about, do some people actually have quiet moments where there isn't some thought/inner monologue going on in their mind (regardless of Zazen). Anias original post made it sound like that might have been the case (though I could have misread). I've long since accepted that I will never have a quiet mind.


    Evan,
    Sat today, lah
    Hello Evan,

    I would suggest you look into what you call "a quiet mind". We do not have it, we are it . It's just grossly overlooked in every moment , so our attention holds onto the busy, thought/image filled activity .

    In zazen, while seated, we let the attention relax a little bit and this allows us to notice the quiet . It might be just a tiny glimpse before big juicy colorful thought/image . That tiny glimpse of a moment is not to be grabbed either; just to see - here. And should another thought/image arise , you simply return again to that relaxed moment . We are not chasing the quiet, or moments of quietness or trying to freeze the silent "state", we simply allow the gap between one thought and the next expand a little bit, by itself . Just allowing freely, there is nothing you can do or force here .

    I get the silence, I get thoughts, I get the returning and I get the dropping off body and mind . It does n't mean anything, either to have or not to have . Just return again and again and again .

    Gassho,
    eva
    sattoday /my sincere apologies going over 3 sentences
    Last edited by Eva; 09-09-2020 at 10:52 AM.

  45. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by gaurdianaq View Post
    Interesting, how long is not long? Like few seconds, or a few minutes? (Also sleep well!)


    Evan,
    Sat today, lah
    Ahahah I didn't sleep well but I'm full of energy! Just maybe 30 secs to a minute, then disappear, then it could come back. Who knows, I don't keep count anyway

    Gassho,
    Mags
    ST

    Sent from my SM-J600FN using Tapatalk

  46. #46
    Member Onka's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2019
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    Rural Queensland, so-called Australia
    Quote Originally Posted by Tai Shi View Post
    It’s time for me to admit I’m wrong, and as any Zenie junkie it’s possible to get caught up in the rule and not the spirit. Yes, I wrote militiamen comments of more than a total, and a lot more, but I’m now saying tha as Littlejohn author of my first book of contemplation, The 12-step Buddhist, remarks in another way, his long term therapist is a Zen practicing therapist and his editorial advisor is Professor of Buddhist, Zen, studies at Columbia University, we sometimes fail to see need for an eclectic approach to our “whole” lives. Littlejohn suggests that so many of us talk the talk and fail to walk the walk. I became addicted to a particular prescription pain killer while claiming to be sober. Not so drastic but equally as devastating is the student of Zen who eats too much sugar, showers too much, spends into debt unfathomable, drives their car in excess of speed limits, beats children, hits animals, demands love when none is deserved, the list goes on and on. Littlejohn suggests that most of us can benefit from psychotherapy, primary care doctors or psychiatrists, and many are in need with the help of a doctor, psychoactive medications; he says so many are addicted to food, caffein, pop, substances we might not think, and he says all of us can benefit frome wholesome food and exercise. In other words, as a good Buddhist we can strive to be as healthy as possible. As the Literature of recovery states, reaching for a life preserver as “only the drowning” can. This is the state in which even the longtime recovery can bring us to.
    Gassho
    sat
    Tai Shi


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Gassho Onka Sat today
    穏 On (Calm)
    火 Ka (Fires)
    They/She.

  47. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinyo View Post
    A lot of threads within this thread but I might suggest that it is key not to mix up the relative and absolute (albeit two sides of one coin) and in introducing different levels
    Oh, I figured out something about what Uchiyama meant based on Japanese language ...

    "I’ve mentioned that there are two types of realities, the one being accidental reality and the other being undeniable reality. When you think
    about it, I myself am just an accidental reality. After all, there is nothing that says I had to be born in twentieth-century Japan. I could just as well have been born in ancient Egypt, or Papua New Guinea, or indeed not have been born at all. In other words, being born in any age or in any place is a possibility, an accident, just as my being here right now is an accident.

    From that we can say, then, that all the things I see in my world, and the world itself taking shape as I create it, are also an accident." ... [As to "undeniable reality"] It is also described as “all things are as they are,” shohō jissō. Therefore, when we let go of everything, we do not create artificial attachments and connections. Everything is as it is. ... It is the reality of that which cannot be grasped, the reality about which nothing can be said. This very ungraspability is what is absolutely real about things."
    Uchiyama does not mean "accidental" as necessarily "random" or "an accident," because the meaning of 事故 (Jiko) in Japanese can also mean just "what happens due to circumstances." So, he means events that result due to various circumstances and causes coming together, whether due to identifiable causes or arbitrarily ... the "stuff that happens" in this world for various or whatever reasons.

    In the "absolute" view that Jinyo mention, we drop all idea of "separate things that happen," and there is only wholeness. However, we can also see every single phenomenon ... every thing, person or moment ... as a pristine world until itself, perfectly just what it is, free of conceptions of any other thing or cause, as if the whole universe pours into that one thing and there is nothing else in the whole universe. Thus, as Kokuu says ...

    As I understand it, form is not a delusion itself, but seeing form as fixed and solid rather than dependently-arisen and in flux is the delusion.
    The appearances of separate things, persons, moments is a delusion, and all are swept away is wholeness AND YET, FROM THE OTHER PERSPECTIVE, the whole universe totally pours into each, so each thing, person, moment is precious and as real as real can be!

    I believe that Uchiyama is speaking of seeing this world in all such ways.

    Gassho, J
    Sat todayLAH
    Last edited by Jundo; 09-10-2020 at 12:44 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  48. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Ania View Post


    Things are as they are in suchness, form is emptiness, emptiness is form and we know that samsara is a delusion, fixation of something that is impermanent, but How dose it happen, how this dualism/division happens : is it in the process of relating to the form within emptiness?
    Oh, the human mind cuts the world up between the ears into things, names, categories, functions from our subjective perspective that help us navigate the world. As I like to say, there are probably some atoms "out there" in a certain configuration, but only our human minds see and name "a chair" because we have human butts that need to sit! A space creature without a butt would not see "a chair," and my cat does not see "a chair," only only surface to sleep on.


    I've noticed massive shift in the way I relate to the world (similar stories to Jundo's flat tire) particularly with people. There's this one person to whom I always felt resentment because she wouldn't and didn't try to change. It is only when I discovered that I can relate to her in a different way she did change, as by miracle and we have the best relationship we ever had. Things are as they are and there are many different ways we can relate to them, in this creative process we dance our samsara. I guess?
    Yes, but still, the change in my attitude do not fix the tire ... I still needed to get dirty, get the jack and do that. Our change in attitude sometimes changes the people, but sometimes not (I myself dealt with two difficult friends here in Japan yesterday that I cannot change them no matter my attitude, so I must keep some distance). However, we do have some ability to change how we react to the difficult situations between our ears.

    One more example: When I had my cancer, I was pretty miserable and lonely one day in the hospital bed. Then, I decided to "Shikantaza" the experience and feel equanimity. Then, I even tried to feel "at home" in my bed, as if it was the best place in the world to be. I even experimented with "toggling" the switch between all three settings ... and I could! .... miserable ... at peace ... happy ... miserable ... at peace ... happy ... miserable ... at peace ... happy ...

    It did not change the objective situation one bit, but it changed everything!!

    (Sorry, ran long but I am happy about it!)

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 09-10-2020 at 12:53 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  49. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Oh, I figured out something about what Uchiyama meant based on Japanese language ...



    Uchiyama does not mean "accidental" as necessarily "random" or "an accident," because the meaning of 事故 (Jiko) in Japanese can also mean just "what happens due to circumstances." So, he means events that result due to various circumstances and causes coming together, whether due to identifiable causes or arbitrarily ... the "stuff that happens" in this world for various or whatever reasons.

    In the "absolute" view that Jinyo mention, we drop all idea of "separate things that happen," and there is only wholeness. However, we can also see every single phenomenon ... every thing, person or moment ... as a pristine world until itself, perfectly just what it is, free of conceptions of any other thing or cause, as if the whole universe pours into that one thing and there is nothing else in the whole universe. Thus, as Kokuu says ...



    The appearances of separate things, persons, moments is a delusion, and all are swept away is wholeness AND YET, FROM THE OTHER PERSPECTIVE, the whole universe totally pours into each, so each thing, person, moment is precious and as real as real can be!

    I believe that Uchiyama is speaking of seeing this world in all such ways.

    Gassho, J
    Sat todayLAH


    Thank you for claryfing this lost in translation passage of text that I quoted.

    Gassho
    Sat

  50. #50
    Yes, but still, the change in my attitude do not fix the tire ... I still needed to get dirty, get the jack and do that. Our change in attitude sometimes changes the people, but sometimes not (I myself dealt with two difficult friends here in Japan yesterday that I cannot change them no matter my attitude, so I must keep some distance). However, we do have some ability to change how we react to the difficult situations between our ears.

    One more example: When I had my cancer, I was pretty miserable and lonely one day in the hospital bed. Then, I decided to "Shikantaza" the experience and feel equanimity. Then, I even tried to feel "at home" in my bed, as if it was the best place in the world to be. I even experimented with "toggling" the switch between all three settings ... and I could! .... miserable ... at peace ... happy ... miserable ... at peace ... happy ... miserable ... at peace ... happy ...

    It did not change the objective situation one bit, but it changed everything!!


    Thank you Jundo - I think this teaching is key really. 'Toggling the switch' is a great metaphor that can really play out in the relative world as regards how we respond to challenges. There's some interesting work in Neuroscience that's applying practical methods to how we can work on our responses (Stephen Porges - Polyvagal theory) that fits with this.

    Gassho

    Jinyo

    Sat today
    Last edited by Jundo; 09-10-2020 at 12:53 PM.

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