"Mindfulness is the path to the deathless. Heedlessness is the path to death. The mindful never die. The heedless are as if already dead".
- Dhammapada (21), atributed to the Buddha.
What is your view? I am agnostic about rebirth. But I do feel much more alive when I am mindful.
Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH
Hi Tomás"Mindfulness is the path to the deathless. Heedlessness is the path to death. The mindful never die. The heedless are as if already dead"
I am not sure if the Buddha is talking about rebirth here.
Rather that mindful observance leads to an engagement with life which is a gateway into the wholeness of all things.
In contrast, heedlessness, and being lost in thought, brings us only dead concepts and ideas rather than the aliveness of experience.
Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-
Thank you Kokuu! I meant rebirth in the sense that it is implied. The mindful never die, therefore the one who isn't mindful (enough) is reborn. It is an interesting set of sentences, because the Buddha was against the extreme of eternalism and annihilationism, yet nibanna is portrayed as the deathless in the Pali Canon. I just wanted to share it because I found it interesting and I wonder what Dogen or other Zen masters would of said about it.Originally Posted by Kokuu
Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH
Hi Tomás
Yes, you are right that I am putting a Zen spin on it and nibbana/nirvana was often referred to as 'the deathless'.
The Buddha talks about all things being a product of pratitya samutpada (dependent arising) but nibbana/nirvana is one of the things that is not. It is unborn and eternal.
Although Dogen does mention rebirth, his approach seems more about awakening to the fact that we are not separate from the wholeness of all things and, once we realise that, birth and death are waves on the ocean which come into existence for a time and then go back into the ocean. For the ocean itself, there is no birth or death.
In terms of not falling into eternalism, we balance this view with the fact that individual parts of the whole, such as people, flowers and all things that are dependently existent, are impermanent and will arise and fade.
Holding on to just one of these views would, in my understanding, be incorrect, and to fall into one of the two extremes.
Dogen's summarises this in the first two sentences of the Genjokoan fascicle of Shobogenzo:
Apologies for taking more than three sentences to explain this (and probably badly!)When all things and phenomena exist as Buddhist teachings, then there are delusion and realization, practice and experience, life and death, buddhas and ordinary people. When millions of things and phenomena are all separate from ourselves, there are no delusion and no enlightenment, no buddhas and no ordinary people, no life and no death.
Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-
Last edited by Kokuu; 08-26-2020 at 06:22 PM.
I'm not sure if I get it right, but I think deathless is the experience we can encounter, not only but especially in Zazen, when we realize that we are not only body and mind but encounter something vast beyond thoughts and the body. And when we bring this attitude of Zazen into daily life activities, we can also realize that there's something that's not bound to life and death.
When we are heedless we just react to conditions, entangle in thoughts and chase sensual desires, and are totally identified with body and mind and are not able to see that this is just one side of the coin.
So, at least that's my opinion about that
Gassho
Horin
Stlah
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I'm not sure if I get it right, but I think deathless is the experience we can encounter, not only but especially in Zazen, when we realize that we are not only body and mind but encounter something vast beyond thoughts and the body. And when we bring this attitude of Zazen into daily life activities, we can also realize that there's something that's not bound to life and death.
When we are heedless we just react to conditions, entangle in thoughts and chase sensual desires, and are totally identified with body and mind and are not able to see that this is just one side of the coin.
So, at least that's my opinion about that
Far better than I put it! Thank you.
Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-
Thank you, kokuu
Gassho
Stlah
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Thank you both Kokuu and Horin, very useful explanations. That vastness that is beyond thoughts and the body reminds me quite a bit of different "concepts" from different traditions. Rigpa from Tibetan Buddhism, Citta in some of the branches within the Forest tradition and Atman = Brahman in Advaita Vedanta. I guess that it is beyond words and different traditions encapsulate "it" through different understandings. I enjoy and appreciate both Dogen's and the Buddha's view.
Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH
I find Shobogenzo Inmo ("It") is a really good chapter about that, worth to look at even if it's quite tough, at least for me. But it offers a good pointer towards "it".Thank you both Kokuu and Horin, very useful explanations
Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH
Gassho
Horin
Stlah
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Yes, and Ikka Myōju (One Bright Pearl) also in Shobogenzo.I find Shobogenzo Inmo ("It") is a really good chapter about that, worth to look at even if it's quite tough, at least for me. But it offers a good pointer towards "it".
Brad Warner's book It Came From Beyond Zen has a decent commentary on the Immo chapter.
Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-
Another Zenny spin on this:
When the ten thousand dharmas are without [fixed] self, there is no delusion and no realization, no buddhas and no living beings, no birth and no death.
--Genjokoan
Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH
Oh, yes, indeed!
And thanks for the Brad Warner recommendation on that matter!
Bows &
Gassho,
Horin
Stlah
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Thank you both again, I will check both chapters! I have both the Nishijima Roshi and Kazuaki Tanahashi Shobogenzo's at home, collecting dust... I knew some day I would open them finally (I haven't done so because they are daunting!).
Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH
Kokuu, Horin and Jakuden speak my mind ...
Forget for now any future lives that may come after death, and simply speak of this life:
There are people who live like walking corpses because they do not take care in this life, people who truly live richly because they take care in this life.
Furthermore, as Horin and others pointed out, one can taste this "it" in this life here and now, and "it" that is beyond ups and down, me and you, this and that, even birth and death itself ... right in a world of up and down, me and you, this and that, birth and death (BUT, this word "it" is a terrible translation precisely because we do not reify into some thing or "it" or fixed idea ... thus Dogen in Immo used interrogative words as declarations such as "WHAT!" or "HOW!" such as "What's What!," and I sometimes say "flowing wholeness" or "suchness" or some such nonsense), which is what the heedless and ignorant do not know, but the wise do.
Gassho, J
STLah
Last edited by Jundo; 08-27-2020 at 11:15 PM.
ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
Gassho
Heiso
StLah
In using "It," Brad was making a joke based on the kinda famous (to SF movie nuts) 1950's feature ...
... and it's a good joke, but it is rather misleading because of the ways words like "it" or "something" or "that" tend to reify emptiness (even "emptiness" as a word can do this) into an object, limited and small and rather frozen as some idea of a limited thing, separate from ourselves.
Gassho, JReification is when you think of or treat something abstract as a physical thing.
Reification is a complex idea for when you treat something immaterial — like happiness, fear, or evil — as a material thing.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dic...sh/reification
STLah
ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
Beautiful!
In moment world those are the choices
Sat
🙏💜
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