How much of dharma is upaya?

[A.J.]

My question relates to the role of upaya in the Sutras because I'm wondering how much the teachings of Buddha can be said to be communicating what is true about reality versus communicating skillful means for pulling the arrow of dukkha out.

There is the old burning house story in the Lotus Sutra as a parable for pragmatism in teachers, but also the Mahayana relegated the Suttas of the "Hinayana" to being merely upaya because Buddha's listeners were not ripe to hear the full truth.

I'm curious to know in your opinion which of Buddha's teachings are actually true (in the philosophical sense of intended to communicate reality even if they themselves are only a finger pointing to the moon) versus which aspects of the dharma may be utilitarian and how one might tell the difference.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

My question relates to the role of upaya in the Sutras because I'm wondering how much the teachings of Buddha can be said to be communicating what is true about reality versus communicating skillful means for pulling the arrow of dukkha out.

There is the old burning house story in the Lotus Sutra as a parable for pragmatism in teachers, but also the Mahayana relegated the Suttas of the "Hinayana" to being merely upaya because Buddha's listeners were not ripe to hear the full truth.

I'm curious to know in your opinion which of Buddha's teachings are actually true (in the philosophical sense of intended to communicate reality even if they themselves are only a finger pointing to the moon) versus which aspects of the dharma may be utilitarian and how one might tell the difference.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

Oh, it is not black and white, for while there are certain Truths of our Path that are to be conveyed ... of self and the transcendence of self, of impermanence and emptiness and the flowing wholeness which sweeps in so, of Dukkha and the cure for Dukkha ... there are 10,000 ways to express so, to try to get it across, to make it good music suited to different ears, to call on imagery and stories, suttas and sutras, poetry and prose, parables and similes, detailed explications or simply drawing enso circles in the air, or a shout or a Koan or ... or ....

A novel such as "Moby Dick" is fiction, and yet it seeks and succeeds to convey Truths about the human condition, thus is as true as true can be. Where does one end or begin?

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

Oh, it is not black and white, for while there are certain Truths of our Path that are to be conveyed ... of self and the transcendence of self, of impermanence and emptiness and the flowing wholeness which sweeps in so, of Dukkha and the cure for Dukkha ... there are 10,000 ways to express so, to try to get it across, to make it good music suited to different ears, to call on imagery and stories, suttas and sutras, poetry and prose, parables and similes, detailed explications or simply drawing enso circles in the air, or a shout or a Koan or ... or ....

A novel such as "Moby Dick" is fiction, and yet it seeks and succeeds to convey Truths about the human condition, thus is as true as true can be. Where does one end or begin?

Gassho, J

STLah

It almost sounds to me like every single Buddhist teaching could possibly be upaya. I tend to think ideas like sunyata are trying to actually communicate something about the nature of reality, but maybe that also is only a tool? Is it possible for every bit of dharma to be upaya?

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

It almost sounds to me like every single Buddhist teaching could possibly be upaya. I tend to think ideas like sunyata are trying to actually communicate something about the nature of reality, but maybe that also is only a tool? Is it possible for every bit of dharma to be upaya?

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

Well, Emptiness/Sunyata are real ... but those are just words (one in English, one in Sanskrit) that convey a mental model of something vaguely like actual "emptiness." One actually has to sit Zazen and practice to experience Sunyata (which experience, of course, is still through our brain).

It is something like saying that "ice cream" and "sweet" are just two words that convey some mental image or memory of what sweet ice cream tastes like ... but one actually needs to taste the rocky road, with one's own tongue, beyond words or definitions, to know the rocky road.

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

Well, Emptiness/Sunyata are real ... but those are just words (one in English, one in Sanskrit) that convey a mental model of something vaguely like actual "emptiness." One actually has to sit Zazen and practice to experience Sunyata (which experience, of course, is still through our brain).

It is something like saying that "ice cream" and "sweet" are just two words that convey some mental image or memory of what sweet ice cream tastes like ... but one actually needs to taste the rocky road, with one's own tongue, beyond words or definitions, to know the rocky road.

Gassho, J

STLah

Yes, I think there is an experience of sunyata to be had by meditation. Since this is an experience that happens through the brain it necessarily runs into the same ontological issue of being unable to scientifically prove that an experience in the brain corresponds to an outer reality, which is why I offered that particular topic as an example.

The concept of upaya creates a context in which Buddhist teachings are not necessarily true though they may be helpful (like the father who lies to his children to get them out of a burning house in the Lotus Sutra) so I'm wondering in your estimation which Buddhist teachings may be to a greater or lesser extent thought of as upaya?

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

Yes, I think there is an experience of sunyata to be had by meditation. Since this is an experience that happens through the brain it necessarily runs into the same ontological issue of being unable to scientifically prove that an experience in the brain corresponds to an outer reality, which is why I offered that particular topic as an example.

The concept of upaya creates a context in which Buddhist teachings are not necessarily true though they may be helpful (like the father who lies to his children to get them out of a burning house in the Lotus Sutra) so I'm wondering in your estimation which Buddhist teachings may be to a greater or lesser extent thought of as upaya?

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

Well, as far as I know, there may be no A.J. there either, and if that is the case, then I am wasting a heck of a lot of time answering his questions. Nonetheless, I must assume that there is an A.J. there, at least provisionally, and I am experiencing so, so I am also experiencing my answering, and that it is worthwhile to do so.

I believe I listed in my first response several of the teachings that seem true enough that they can be experienced and, by such experience, change our experience of life and be liberating ... the transcendence of self, impermanence and emptiness and the flowing wholeness which sweeps in so, the cure for Dukkha ... and so many more, such as Master Dogen's teachings of "being-time," the Precepts, and many more; each, like the A.J. I experience, is as real as real can be (at least provisionally), worth knowing and is life changing. How they are taught and expressed as "upaya"? I already answered that in my top post above.

Gassho, J

STLah

(a bit more than three lines)

[Jundo]

Let me add that there may be some teachings that are more "upaya" than actually true. I entertain the view that, quite possibly, very literal views of post-mortem rebirth (e.g., through Karmic effects causing us to come back as puppy dogs, humans or as gods or in hell etc.) are a kind of nice story or fable or somebodies fantasy meant to get people to act morally. Tales of a Buddha who could perform miracles, did not need to eat or pee really, could read minds etc. might be somebody's well-meaning religions imagination.

That is very different from something like sunyata which, like the Grand Canyon, I feel is really there and worth a visit even if both are just names on something much grander which cannot truly capture the full reality which must be experienced by an actual visit.

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

Well, as far as I know, there may be no A.J. there either, and if that is the case, then I am wasting a heck of a lot of time answering his questions. Nonetheless, I must assume that there is an A.J. there, at least provisionally, and I am experiencing so, so I am also experiencing my answering, and that it is worthwhile to do so.

I believe I listed in my first response several of the teachings that seem true enough that they can be experienced and, by such experience, change our experience of life and be liberating ... the transcendence of self, impermanence and emptiness and the flowing wholeness which sweeps in so, the cure for Dukkha ... and so many more, such as Master Dogen's teachings of "being-time," the Precepts, and many more; each, like the A.J. I experience, is as real as real can be (at least provisionally), worth knowing and is life changing. How they are taught and expressed as "upaya"? I already answered that in my top post above.

Gassho, J

STLah

(a bit more than three lines)

You can be relatively sure that I exist because you know within a fair probability that other people like yourself exist in the world, whereas spiritual insights are of a more esoteric nature and though I am inclined by experience to trust them, I don't consider the obvious existence of people to be quite comparable with the provability of sunyata. I don't want to be stuck on this example in itself since I am basically just wondering more generally if there are Buddhist insights that might be more psychological rather than metaphysical.

I liked your list of basic Buddhist truths as well as your example of upaya where you interpret upaya as an adaptation of basic Buddhist truths, however I'm wondering if there are upaya more similar to the story in the Lotus Sutra where the father literally lies to his children to get them out of the burning house.

P.S. I appreciate your interacting with questions. Questions are a big part of my personal practice.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

Let me add that there may be some teachings that are more "upaya" than actually true. I entertain the view that, quite possibly, very literal views of post-mortem rebirth (e.g., through Karmic effects causing us to come back as puppy dogs, humans or as gods or in hell etc.) are a kind of nice story or fable or somebodies fantasy meant to get people to act morally. Tales of a Buddha who could perform miracles, did not need to eat or pee really, could read minds etc. might be somebody's well-meaning religions imagination.

That is very different from something like sunyata which, like the Grand Canyon, I feel is really there and worth a visit even if both are just names on something much grander which cannot truly capture the full reality which must be experienced by an actual visit.

Gassho, J

STLah

So there we have examples of upaya meaning stories or ideas that are not actually true meant to get you to act ethically. Since the parable in the Lotus Sutra involves escaping a burning house do you think there are upaya (again, meaning stories or ideas that are not actually true) meant to get you toward liberation?

I know in Zen you don't go from one shore to the other, but in that old Buddhist story about crossing shores, I believe the man discards the raft at the end.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

I don't consider the obvious existence of people to be quite comparable with the provability of sunyata.

Sunyata is like Rocky Road ice cream. Ya know it when one tastes it.

I have been to the grand canyon, so I believe it exists (might still be a dream or a false memory).

I am doubtful about the Bardo, although it might be and I will drop you a post card if I get there. (I believe that Bridgette Bardot was a real actress because I saw some films with her ... although they are just on a screen, and I never met her).

I think that there is an AJ (at least provisionally so), that Mickey Mouse is only a cartoon character (although a real cartoon character), but that rabbits with horns are fantasies alone.

I'm wondering if there are upaya more similar to the story in the Lotus Sutra where the father literally lies to his children to get them out of the burning house.

I don't know any honest and sincere Buddhist teachers (i.e., not including the fake conmen and such) who would intentionally lie to a student. I might use words of encouragement or promise good things to keep people practicing, but I mean it. Some Buddhist folks might tell all kinds of magic tales to their students in order to encourage them or make a point (like about the miracles of a Buddha with his aura and golden skin) and maybe the teacher just means it as encouragement ... but I think that usually the teacher believes it too. I try to avoid such things.

I know in Zen you don't go from one shore to the other, but in that old Buddhist story about crossing shores, I believe the man discards the raft at the end.

Dogen said that we never put the raft down, nor is the raft really ever picked up, and that the "other shore" is actually this shore and the very middle of the river all along. This is his vision of ongoing practice enlightenment.

Now, I suggest that you drop the question in this thread for now, it has been about as answered as it can be. Go sit some more, beyond truth or upaya, sunyata or no sunyata, A.J. or no A.J.

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

Sunyata is like Rocky Road ice cream. Ya know it when one tastes it.

I have been to the grand canyon, so I believe it exists (might still be a dream or a false memory).

I am doubtful about the Bardo, although it might be and I will drop you a post card if I get there. (I believe that Bridgette Bardot was a real actress because I saw some films with her ... although they are just on a screen, and I never met her).

I think that there is an AJ (at least provisionally so), that Mickey Mouse is only a cartoon character (although a real cartoon character), but that rabbits with horns are fantasies alone.



I don't know any honest and sincere Buddhist teachers (i.e., not including the fake conmen and such) who would intentionally lie to a student. I might use words of encouragement or promise good things to keep people practicing, but I mean it. Some Buddhist folks might tell all kinds of magic tales to their students in order to encourage them or make a point (like about the miracles of a Buddha with his aura and golden skin) and maybe the teacher just means it as encouragement ... but I think that usually the teacher believes it too. I try to avoid such things.



Dogen said that we never put the raft down, nor is the raft really ever picked up, and that the "other shore" is actually this shore and the very middle of the river all along. This is his vision of ongoing practice enlightenment.

Now, I suggest that you drop the question in this thread for now, it has been about as answered as it can be. Go sit some more, beyond truth or upaya, sunyata or no sunyata, A.J. or no A.J.

Gassho, J

STLah

If someone living had what they took to be some sort of vision of the bardo we wouldn't be able to deny their experience per se but could question how the experience is interpreted, therefore while I am inclined by my own experience and thought to believe there is something real to the sunyata idea I recognize that experience is one thing, whereas interpretation (including the interpretation that my insightful experience is objective reality) is another.

To reiterate such a distinction is not the same as saying people may just as well not exist or perhaps Mickey Mouse is real because there is a difference between recognizing the subjectivity of spiritual experiences versus the common sense objectivity that people like ourselves fill the world.

Now, specifically in regard to the Lotus Sutra, in the parable of the burning house the father gets his children to safety by lying to them, so I figured since it is a parable perhaps certain Buddhist teachings aimed at getting you out of the burning house are in fact untruths which nevertheless you will come to appreciate once you see the house is burning down, but this is my own speculative reflections trying to authentically engage this story... so what would you read the parable as relating to?

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Kokuu]

Now, specifically in regard to the Lotus Sutra, in the parable of the burning house the father gets his children to safety by lying to them, so I figured since it is a parable perhaps certain Buddhist teachings aimed at getting you out of the burning house are in fact untruths which nevertheless you will come to appreciate once you see the house is burning down, but this is my own speculative reflections trying to authentically engage this story... so what would you read the parable as relating to?

Hi Andrew

The way I personally relate to this story is more one of the different approach to ethics (sila) between the Mahayana and early Buddhist schools. The Lotus Sutra very much makes a shift between these two ways of thinking and I see the sutra as setting out the Mahayana path in a number of ways, demonstrating the vast depths of buddhahood in space and time beyond that conceived in early Buddhist teachings.

In respect of the Burning House parable, I see it as a way of showing that upaya cenbe more important than rigid adherence to the precepts, in which Mayahana ethics moves from a rules-based system to one in which the motivation to practice for the benefit of all beings is more important.

But it may also point to the fact that the Buddha sometimes uses upaya for the benefit of all beings also. I can't think of a particular example at the moment. Might you be able to point to one (I haven't read the entirety of the thread so you might already have)?

Mostly, I see that what might be considered upaya in the teachings is more a case of relative teachings vs ultimate teachings, although really those two are in essence inseparable.

Anyway, that is my own particular reflection on that story but I would certainly not wager my house or it (burning or otherwise!) to be the correct or complete one.

Apologies for running well over three sentences.

Gassho
Kokuu

[A.J.]

Hi Andrew

The way I personally relate to this story is more one of the different approach to ethics (sila) between the Mahayana and early Buddhist schools. The Lotus Sutra very much makes a shift between these two ways of thinking and I see the sutra as setting out the Mahayana path in a number of ways, demonstrating the vast depths of buddhahood in space and time beyond that conceived in early Buddhist teachings.

In respect of the Burning House parable, I see it as a way of showing that upaya cenbe more important than rigid adherence to the precepts, in which Mayahana ethics moves from a rules-based system to one in which the motivation to practice for the benefit of all beings is more important.

But it may also point to the fact that the Buddha sometimes uses upaya for the benefit of all beings also. I can't think of a particular example at the moment. Might you be able to point to one (I haven't read the entirety of the thread so you might already have)?

Mostly, I see that what might be considered upaya in the teachings is more a case of relative teachings vs ultimate teachings, although really those two are in essence inseparable.

Anyway, that is my own particular reflection on that story but I would certainly not wager my house or it (burning or otherwise!) to be the correct or complete one.

Gassho
Kokuu

It does seem that upaya becomes a framework for interpreting layers of tradition that don't quite fit with the present tradition at the time because while Mahayana interpreted "Hinayana" in retrospect I'm pretty sure Vajrayana did the same thing to explain discrepancies with Mahayana.

Right now I can see upaya as 1. providing a retrospective framework for certain teachings thereby allowing developments and 2. providing an adaptable flexibility to teachers and schools of Buddhism to accommodate dharma to culture/students... but I am trying to brainstorm for 3. Buddhist teachings that had an element of upaya from the get go (which would be helpful because there appears to be some contradictions even in the Pali Canon).

Part of this is also that I'm trying to pin down what sort of teacher Buddha is thought to have been, i.e. is he a spiritual philosopher propounding truths to be absolutely proven by the minds of the students or is he a pragmatist delivering remedies to treat one ailment or another depending on the audience or time?

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Kokuu]

I'm pretty sure Vajrayana did the same thing to explain discrepancies with Mahayana.

I am not sure about that. Vajrayana rests pretty much on a Mahayana foundation and, having practiced a fair amount of Buddhist tantra, seems to me to be more about a different approach to practice and realizing buddha nature through embodying the result. I remember one teacher being asked about the difference between Vajrayana and Mahayana and he responded that Vajrayana is Mahayana.

Buddhist teachings that had an element of upaya from the get go (which would be helpful because there appears to be some contradictions even in the Pali Canon).

Most of Buddha's teachings arose in response to questions or situations so he gave advice specific to those. When we try to make sense of that as a unified philosophy, there may definitely appear to be contradictions. Is that upaya or tailoring advice to the situation? I don't know.

Part of this is also that I'm trying to pin down what sort of teacher Buddha is thought to have been, i.e. is he a spiritual philosopher propounding truths to be absolutely proven by the minds of the students or is he a pragmatist delivering remedies to treat one ailment or another depending on the audience or time?

I think he is both but ultimately his aim was to relieve suffering. Sometimes he taught to do this on a relative level, just as we do now, but his aim always seems to have been to awaken people to greater truths. However, that was not just philosophy for the pure pursuit of knowledge, but a way of demonstrating the true nature of reality that frees us from the suffering of our limited way of seeing ourselves.

Apologies for running well over three sentences (again!).


Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[A.J.]

I am not sure about that. Vajrayana rests pretty much on a Mahayana foundation and, having practiced a fair amount of Buddhist tantra, seems to me to be more about a different approach to practice and realizing buddha nature through embodying the result. I remember one teacher being asked about the difference between Vajrayana and Mahayana and he responded that Vajrayana is Mahayana.




Most of Buddha's teachings arose in response to questions or situations so he gave advice specific to those. When we try to make sense of that as a unified philosophy, there may definitely appear to be contradictions. Is that upaya or tailoring advice to the situation? I don't know.




I think he is both but ultimately his aim was to relieve suffering. Sometimes he taught to do this on a relative level, just as we do now, but his aim always seems to have been to awaken people to greater truths. However, that was not just philosophy for the pure pursuit of knowledge, but a way of demonstrating the true nature of reality that frees us from the suffering of our limited way of seeing ourselves.


Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

Philosophy in an ancient Greek sense would also have some real life uptake and as an example I'd give Plato's Cave, while on the other hand pure concern for words and merely abstract knowledge was considered sophistry, not philosophy (love of wisdom).

I should be specific about my guessing around here on the Vajrayana (since I don't have much experience with it): in some tantric texts I've read strange things like the ritual consumption of excrement and sexual fluids and although those behaviors aren't that popular I figured that because sexuality along with other oddities are present in those texts that there had do be some modified understanding of the Mahayana.

Regarding upaya in the O.G. dharma I'm open to what could possibly fit that category and it does seem to open an interpretive door for cases where we might otherwise find the idea that Buddha is communicating objective truth unpalatable such as his meditations in the Pali Canon encouraging his listeners to see the world, the body, and people as disgusting and vile.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

It does seem that upaya becomes a framework for interpreting layers of tradition that don't quite fit with the present tradition at the time because while Mahayana interpreted "Hinayana" in retrospect I'm pretty sure Vajrayana did the same thing to explain discrepancies with Mahayana.

For sure: "Upaya" (skillful means) was a very nice way for later Buddhists to say, "Well, we don't really agree with all the teachings of early Buddhism exactly as they are presented, and we can't say the Buddha (or whoever wrote down the South Asian version of the teachings) was 'wrong,' so we will just say that he "was making different versions of the teachings for different needs." It is a nice way of rectifying the differences.

And, in fact, different versions of the teachings ARE suited to different people, with some benefiting more from X presentation, and others from Y presentation, so it is true: Different medicines for different needs.

Part of this is also that I'm trying to pin down what sort of teacher Buddha is thought to have been, i.e. is he a spiritual philosopher propounding truths to be absolutely proven by the minds of the students or is he a pragmatist delivering remedies to treat one ailment or another depending on the audience or time?

Choose the Buddha(s) you wish, who resonate with your needs, the medicine for you. Only a terrible physician would hand out the exact same prescription to every patient who came through the door, whether a cancer patient or someone with a broken foot.

If someone living had what they took to be some sort of vision of the bardo we wouldn't be able to deny their experience per se but could question how the experience is interpreted, therefore while I am inclined by my own experience and thought to believe there is something real to the sunyata idea I recognize that experience is one thing, whereas interpretation (including the interpretation that my insightful experience is objective reality) is another.

Refrigerator is an idea, I cannot be sure if I am dreaming it; Buddhist Ice Hell (https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/b...doc225388.html) is an idea, I cannot be totally sure if it exists or not. However, the former seems to keep my milk cold (also possibly imagined), while the latter seems to defy what I understand about the laws of physics and various other things, and though some vision of it might be had in meditation practice, I see little evidence for it, it seems as likely as not to be someone's fanciful imagining or meditative hallucination, so I am more skeptical about "ice hell" than refrigerators. The former does not keep my imaginary milk cold. Likewise, "Sunayata" seems to be something I can envision in a dream AND which seems actually to be born out with what physics, chemistry and modern brain science tells us about the inter-identity of phenomena, AND it actually seems to cure the heart of friction, conflict and suffering ... so I think it real. No, it does not keep my milk cold either, but it has other verifiable uses.

Someone else may find value in their belief in "ice hell" or flying Buddhas in the sky, and so I honor their right to find value there. Good for them if that is the "expedient" prescription that benefits them. Frankly, if you want examples of "holy lies" that are told to people in order to inspire, I say it is precisely such miracle stories ... whether of Jesus or Gautama. The wild stories of the Lotus Sutra themselves are such "holy lies," yet they have wonderful value as parables even if we don't take them literally.

(pardon more than 3 sentences)

Gassho, J

STLah

Buddhist Hell (I could not find a picture of a cold one, so we will make do with fire and brimstone):

[Jundo]

I should be specific about my guessing around here on the Vajrayana (since I don't have much experience with it): in some tantric texts I've read strange things like the ritual consumption of excrement and sexual fluids and although those behaviors aren't that popular I figured that because sexuality along with other oddities are present in those texts that there had do be some modified understanding of the Mahayana.

Much more likely Indian Shavism ... Brahman/Hindu transgressive beliefs in the religion of Lord Shiva ... which flooded into Buddhism in the early centuries C.E.

http://www.sutrajournal.com/the-tant...stopher-wallis

It was then wrapped in Buddhist clothes and, yes, I am sure that they could interpret some Mahayana literature in extreme ways to find that common ground.

Not my cup of tea (or bile), and I don't care much for it as a practice, but maybe it works for someone as their Upaya.

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

For sure: "Upaya" (skillful means) was a very nice way for later Buddhists to say, "Well, we don't really agree with all the teachings of early Buddhism exactly as they are presented, and we can't say the Buddha (or whoever wrote down the South Asian version of the teachings) was 'wrong,' so we will just say that he "was making different versions of the teachings for different needs." It is a nice way of rectifying the differences.

And, in fact, different versions of the teachings ARE suited to different people, with some benefiting more from X presentation, and others from Y presentation, so it is true: Different medicines for different needs.



Choose the Buddha(s) you wish, who resonated with your needs, the medicine for you. Only a terrible physician would hand out the exact same prescription to every patient who came through the door, whether a cancer patient or someone with a broken foot.



Refrigerator is an idea, I cannot be sure if I am dreaming it; Buddhist Ice Hell (https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/b...doc225388.html) is an idea, I cannot be totally sure if it exists or not. However, the former seems to keep my milk cold (also possibly imagined), while the latter seems to defy what I understand about the laws of physics and various other things, and though some vision of it might be had in meditation practice, I see little evidence for it, it seems as likely as not to be someone's fanciful imagining or meditative hallucination, so I am more skeptical about "ice hell" than refrigerators. The former does not keep my imaginary milk cold. Likewise, "Sunayata" seems to be something I can envision in a dream AND which seems actually to be born out with what physics, chemistry and modern brain science tells us about the inter-identity of phenomena, AND it actually seems to cure the heart of friction, conflict and suffering ... so I think it real. No, it does not keep my milk cold either, but it has other verifiable uses.

Someone else may find value in their belief in "ice hell" or flying Buddhas in the sky, and so I honor their right to find value there. Good for them if that is the "expedient" prescription that benefits them. Frankly, if you want examples of "holy lies" that are told to people in order to inspire, I say it is precisely such miracle stories ... whether of Jesus or Gautama. The wild stories of the Lotus Sutra themselves are such "holy lies," yet they have wonderful value as parables even if we don't take them literally.

(pardon more than 3 sentences)

Gassho, J

STLah

Buddhist Hell (I could not find a picture of a cold one, so we will make do with fire and brimstone):

The reasons you gave for sunyata along with my own personal investigations are why I'm inclined to think that the word (in itself only an idea) points to something real about reality.

I just mention the distinction between spiritual experiences and common sense realities because while the one requires special engagements, (involvement in a practice or some such) the other is obvious in a way that doesn't require anything special.

Cool picture... I'm thinking of floors and walls made of dry ice where the naked damned have no where to sit.


Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

Much more likely Indian Shavism ... Brahman/Hindu transgressive beliefs in the religion of Lord Shiva ... which flooded into Buddhism in the early centuries C.E.

http://www.sutrajournal.com/the-tant...stopher-wallis

It was then wrapped in Buddhist clothes and, yes, I am sure that they could interpret some Mahayana literature in extreme ways to find that common ground.

Not my cup of tea (or bile), and I don't care much for it as a practice, but maybe it works for someone as their Upaya.

Gassho, J

STLah

Coming back to peaches and poo...
that might be a great way to go beyond craving and aversion... joking...
but that might have actually been their idea.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

The reasons you gave for sunyata along with my own personal investigations are why I'm inclined to think that the word (in itself only an idea) points to something real about reality.

I just mention the distinction between spiritual experiences and common sense realities because while the one requires special engagements, (involvement in a practice or some such) the other is obvious in a way that doesn't require anything special.

Cool picture... I'm thinking of floors and walls made of dry ice where the naked damned have no where to sit.


Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

A.J., maybe you are a little too tied up in debate and intellectualizing for Zen practice?

It is a fine line between intellectual curiosity and discussion, and tangles of philosophizing which actually stand in the way of clarity, so be cautious!

Hard to explain, but our way is a bit like eating an apple, savoring an apple, perhaps lightly asking and discussing about the source of the apple and commenting on how sweet it is ... vs. debating so much "what is an apple?" "why is an apple not an orange?" "is the apple empty or is there an actual apple?" "which is the original apple, and which apple is truer than other apples?" and "are apples upaya?" that one fails to be still, quiet and actually taste the apple.

Thus, Middle Way, ask fewer questions and savor the sweet apple more, don't fall into an intellectual trap!

(a sentence past 3)

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

A.J., maybe you are a little too tied up in debate and intellectualizing for Zen practice?

It is a fine line between intellectual curiosity and discussion, and tangles of philosophizing which actually stand in the way of clarity, so be cautious!

Hard to explain, but our way is a bit like eating an apple, savoring an apple, perhaps lightly asking and discussing about the source of the apple and commenting on how sweet it is ... vs. debating so much "what is an apple" "why is an apple not an orange" "is the apple empty or is there an actual apple" and "are apples upaya" that one fails to be still, quiet and actually taste the apple.

Thus, Middle Way, ask fewer questions and savor the sweet apple more, don't fall into an intellectual trap!

(a sentence past 3)

Gassho, J

STLah

In the past I've thoroughly enjoyed Zen practice in temples and studying Zen material but I don't consider anything to be the be-all, end-all to stop all questions and thoughts.

Zen is part of a received tradition with a long history and libraries worth of texts so although I happily accept that ultimate reality is beyond words and letters I also accept that we are people of words and letters.

I'm not interested in debate but I am interested in cogent discussion that may involve interacting with different points of view with the goal of getting a better understanding of whatever topic is at hand.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

I've also found old Zen writings that were more argumentative and dogmatic than I would ever dream of being.

And philosophy is but the love of wisdom i.e. Plato's Cave, not to be confused with sophism.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Onka]

Hi AJ
I'm a new student of Zen Buddhism AND a new practitioner of the Buddha Dharma.
I read your posts with interest and genuine intellectual wonder, mainly because I am a new student. As a practioner I want to yell "READ LESS. SIT MORE" because my own practice is ridiculously simple but the irony would be as thick as Turkish coffee considering my verbosity.
I ask you respectfully whether you see yourself as a student of Buddhism or a practitioner? Or like I'm aiming to be, both?
I'm hoping to evolve into both myself as the years go by but until I can interact with you intellectually on Zen and Buddhism may I ask as a new practitioner to take note of Jundo's softly softly approach to offering advice.
Gassho
Onka
Sat today

[A.J.]

Hi AJ
I'm a new student of Zen Buddhism AND a new practitioner of the Buddha Dharma.
I read your posts with interest and genuine intellectual wonder, mainly because I am a new student. As a practioner I want to yell "READ LESS. SIT MORE" because my own practice is ridiculously simple but the irony would be as thick as Turkish coffee considering my verbosity.
I ask you respectfully whether you see yourself as a student of Buddhism or a practitioner? Or like I'm aiming to be, both?
I'm hoping to evolve into both myself as the years go by but until I can interact with you intellectually on Zen and Buddhism may I ask as a new practitioner to take note of Jundo's softly softly approach to offering advice.
Gassho
Onka
Sat today

I have a fairly regular meditation practice, when I lived near Sanghas I often attended several times a week for several years and I have been reading Buddhist material (mostly going back to ancient sources in translation) for several years, so all in all I would have to say practitioner and student.

On the student side I have developed a build up of questions and issues with various aspects of Buddhism for which I am looking for points of view.
On the practicing side I sit when I sit, think when I think and write when I write.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

I'm not interested in debate but I am interested in cogent discussion that may involve interacting with different points of view with the goal of getting a better understanding of whatever topic is at hand.

I enjoy cogent discussion and questioning too, as you can tell. Yet there comes a time when we put it aside, for it seems like the "baskets and snares" of intellectual tangles are getting in the way of savoring the apple, spying the moon, practicing Zen. It is hard to tell where that line is, but I feel that we should be more aware of that around our discussions: Oh, how the moonlight shines upon the beautiful apple!

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jundo]

On the practicing side I sit when I sit, think when I think and write when I write.

Please sit each day before you come here to chat, chat for awhile and address a question or two briefly ... then we sweep the floor, chop some wood, savor the apple, sit Zazen again.

Many aspects of zen can be understood by simplifying the debate and ideas, yet we do not want to be ill informed and unquestioning either. The middle way please.

Gassho, J

STLah

[gaurdianaq]

I will say this, I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to look deep into these sorts of things, but on the other side of things. I believe these sorts of questions will never have a truly satisfying answer either. Even the things we consider to be "common sense realities" can come into question if looked at in the right way. At one point in time, it was considered common sense that the earth was flat and that there was a finite distance beyond the planet that existed. To consider otherwise was to be considered delusional. And there are some scientific theories that suggest our own universe might be a simulation!


Evan,
Sat today

[A.J.]

Please sit each day before you come here to chat, chat for awhile and address a question or two briefly ... then we sweep the floor, chop some wood, savor the apple, sit Zazen again.

Many aspects of zen can be understood by simplifying the debate and ideas, yet we do not want to be ill informed and unquestioning either. The middle way please.

Gassho, J

STLah

I sit for forty to an hour each day and always well before any kind of internet usage. If you have a suggested practice other than that I'd consider it.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

I enjoy cogent discussion and questioning too, as you can tell. Yet there comes a time when we put it aside, for it seems like the "baskets and snares" of intellectual tangles are getting in the way of savoring the apple, spying the moon, practicing Zen. It is hard to tell where that line is, but I feel that we should be more aware of that around our discussions: Oh, how the moonlight shines upon the beautiful apple!

Gassho, J

STLah

I don't consider defining terms, parsing distinctions in what is the case, or evaluating historical practices and ideas intellectual snares. To me it is just trying to understand and I find I learn more if I'm not contented automatically with the first answer on its face. Question and answer time doesn't cultivate understanding but prying for why the answer is the answer is what cultivates understanding.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

I will say this, I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to look deep into these sorts of things, but on the other side of things. I believe these sorts of questions will never have a truly satisfying answer either. Even the things we consider to be "common sense realities" can come into question if looked at in the right way. At one point in time, it was considered common sense that the earth was flat and that there was a finite distance beyond the planet that existed. To consider otherwise was to be considered delusional. And there are some scientific theories that suggest our own universe might be a simulation!


Evan,
Sat today

I would need evidence that the world is a simulation. Some supposed theories don't validate an idea till there is a positive reason to believe it. People thought the world was flat because that was all they could see with the evidence they had at hand and people changed their minds when evidence came to the contrary, therefore I do not believe we are in a quandary of uncertainty about everything.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[gaurdianaq]

I would need evidence that the world is a simulation. Some supposed theories don't validate an idea till there is a positive reason to believe it. People thought the world was flat because that was all they could see with the evidence they had at hand and people changed their minds when evidence came to the contrary, therefore I do not believe we are in a quandary of uncertainty about everything.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

I wasn't arguing that a theory alone does validate an idea. My point was that the earth not being flat would have been viewed very similarly to the simulation theory and that we shouldn't be too attached to what might seem like common sense to us (that doesn't mean we should reject something either for being common sense). Another thing that many people consider to be common sense is the idea of an individual self, but that doesn't necessarily mean there is one. And it's only very recently that science is starting to consider the idea that a "self" might be a form of illusion created by the left side of our brain. (The book No Self, No Problem was really interesting and talks about that)

And I'll say this, if the universe did turn out to be a simulation it might explain some of the weirdness about quantum mechanics and why observing things at the sub atomic level causes them to adhere to a specific state (where as when unobserved they exist in a state of probability).


Evan,
Sat today

[Jundo]

...
And I'll say this, if the universe did turn out to be a simulation it might explain some of the weirdness about quantum mechanics and why observing things at the sub atomic level causes them to adhere to a specific state (where as when unobserved they exist in a state of probability).

Now, ya know, that is actually a proposition that has some serious physicists, philosophers and thinkers behind it as an actual possibility. Have a listen:

Neil deGrasse Tyson



Elon Musk



The most expert on the topic of all, Oxford technology philosopher Nick Bostrom



Quite a few others.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Kokuu]

To me it is just trying to understand and I find I learn more if I'm not contented automatically with the first answer on its face. Question and answer time doesn't cultivate understanding but prying for why the answer is the answer is what cultivates understanding.

Andrew,

In Zen we learn to be comfortable with 'not knowing' and to not always give in to the need for the mind to know everything which is often about a desire for control.

Treeleaf, and Zen, is not anti-intellectual, but I have personally found that letting go of the need for answers brings a different, and deeper, kind of understanding that goes beyond words.

Of course there are times to ask questions but do not be surprised that often you may be asked to put those questions down.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Seikan]

In Zen we learn to be comfortable with 'not knowing' and to not always give in to the need for the mind to know everything which is often about a desire for control.

This... Kokuu says it perfectly.

For what it's worth, I've been quietly following this thread as such analytical discourse satisfies that part of my mind that first connected with Buddhism back when I was a graduate student in Western Philosophy (I spent quite a bit of time comparing Buddhism with Heidegger, etc.)

For years, I would say that I maintained a balance of 80% study/20% practice, although I didn't feel so at the time. Over the years, that balance has shifted to the exact opposite ratio, and there will always be a place for analytical study, but I've realized that I'm much happier when I don't get too hung up on the analytical side. In fact, I often find that poetry can help satisfy my need to understand the Dharma through language as it uses language to help see beyond language.

If the Dharma could be fully understood through purely intellectual exercises, then practice would be unnecessary. That said, it is generally considered to be beyond the reach of intellect alone, so we have to know when to drop the analysis, else it's like trying to satisfy a sweet tooth with more sugar... one never gets enough.

Gassho,
Rob

-stlah-

P.S. Please excuse the use of more than three sentences above.


Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

If the Dharma could be fully understood through purely intellectual exercises, then practice would be unnecessary. That said, it is generally considered to be beyond the reach of intellect alone, so we have to know when to drop the analysis, else it's like trying to satisfy a sweet tooth with more sugar... one never gets enough.

It is more like trying to satisfy a sweet tooth with a debate and intellectual pondering about sweetness: One must just taste some things first hand.

That said, there is much about Buddhism, including Zen, that is intellectually understandable and lends itself to some fruitful explaining and discussion. You will see that we do discuss such topics every day around this Sangha, but there is a time to say ... enough.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Risho]

Painted rice cakes don't satisfy hunger. - Dogen

Someone had to say it

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

[Kokuu]

Ah, Risho, that quote is actually from Master Kyōgen Chikan (Hsiang-yen Chih-hsien; 820–898)!

What Dōgen has to say is a little more nuanced: https://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachi...o/039gabyo.pdf

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Risho]

damn you! hahahahah seriously, thank you

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

[Jundo]

Ah, Risho, that quote is actually from Master Kyōgen Chikan (Hsiang-yen Chih-hsien; 820–898)!

What Dōgen has to say is a little more nuanced: https://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachi...o/039gabyo.pdf

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

Yes, actually Dogen said...

Because the whole universe and all thoughts within it are the act of drawing a picture, every human thought and thing emerges from a picture, and Buddhas and Ancestors come forth from pictures as well. Thus, beyond the image of a rice cake there is no medicine to satisfy our hungers

Dogen was a great word-smith with many opinions which he liked to express in long writings, but it is not that he believed that any debate about Buddhist philosophy, and kind of analysis or assertion of ordinary worldly opinions expresses the Dharma (even though all are dharma, the same as all things in this messy world). Rather, he believed in certain kinds of expression, "turning words" which convey what is hard to convey, silience and and poetry, shouts and circles in the air are the language we best use.

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

I wasn't arguing that a theory alone does validate an idea. My point was that the earth not being flat would have been viewed very similarly to the simulation theory and that we shouldn't be too attached to what might seem like common sense to us (that doesn't mean we should reject something either for being common sense). Another thing that many people consider to be common sense is the idea of an individual self, but that doesn't necessarily mean there is one. And it's only very recently that science is starting to consider the idea that a "self" might be a form of illusion created by the left side of our brain. (The book No Self, No Problem was really interesting and talks about that)

And I'll say this, if the universe did turn out to be a simulation it might explain some of the weirdness about quantum mechanics and why observing things at the sub atomic level causes them to adhere to a specific state (where as when unobserved they exist in a state of probability).


Evan,
Sat today

Beliefs may change but the consistent factor is a need for positive evidence in order to justify those beliefs. Anything could be possible but evidence and reason help us know what is probable.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

Andrew,

In Zen we learn to be comfortable with 'not knowing' and to not always give in to the need for the mind to know everything which is often about a desire for control.

Treeleaf, and Zen, is not anti-intellectual, but I have personally found that letting go of the need for answers brings a different, and deeper, kind of understanding that goes beyond words.

Of course there are times to ask questions but do not be surprised that often you may be asked to put those questions down.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

I'm actually quite comfortable not knowing but I'm also interested in learning whatever I can learn. My thoughts and questions express sincere interests so if I find they are considered too intellectual then I'll explore other avenues to supplement my curiosity. Either way, I have been enjoying this forum and your voice reciting Dogen

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

Beliefs may change but the consistent factor is a need for positive evidence in order to justify those beliefs. Anything could be possible but evidence and reason help us know what is probable.

Gassho,

For Zen teachings, it is often "proof is in the pudding:" One knows that a strawberry cheesecake tastes good, and that the recipe is successful, because it tastes good ... one knows that a light bulb works because there is light ... one knows that there is air to breathe because one breathes, and it is not necessary to know the name of the baker, the physics of photons or the physiology of the respiratory system to know those things and to savor and see in the darkness and breathe.

For other kinds of knowledge, such as whether "the world is a simulation," or there is a "Bardo" or that (as ancient Buddhists believed, until very recently in fact: https://tricycle.org/magazine/first-...e-no-mountain/ ) the earth is flat, I may need some other kinds of proof, and if I am writing a cook book, designing light bulbs or a doctor studying the respiratory system, perhaps I need the technical details more.

However, Zen folks know to savor the sweetness, summon the Illumination, flow like the wind.

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

This... Kokuu says it perfectly.

For what it's worth, I've been quietly following this thread as such analytical discourse satisfies that part of my mind that first connected with Buddhism back when I was a graduate student in Western Philosophy (I spent quite a bit of time comparing Buddhism with Heidegger, etc.)

For years, I would say that I maintained a balance of 80% study/20% practice, although I didn't feel so at the time. Over the years, that balance has shifted to the exact opposite ratio, and there will always be a place for analytical study, but I've realized that I'm much happier when I don't get too hung up on the analytical side. In fact, I often find that poetry can help satisfy my need to understand the Dharma through language as it uses language to help see beyond language.

If the Dharma could be fully understood through purely intellectual exercises, then practice would be unnecessary. That said, it is generally considered to be beyond the reach of intellect alone, so we have to know when to drop the analysis, else it's like trying to satisfy a sweet tooth with more sugar... one never gets enough.

Gassho,
Rob

-stlah-

P.S. Please excuse the use of more than three sentences above.


Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Sometimes there are elements of the Buddhist or Zen tradition I am trying to understand but I would consider that in some way distinct from the Tao, as it were. Some early Buddhist writings are nothing if not analytical and skeptical in orientation so out of the many world religions it seems like there would be a special place for that as a Buddhist approach. Since Buddha is presented as wanting people to test the teachings out for themselves it seems like it would be anti-dharmic to assume that everything we might ever want to know or think is clearly laid out in a single tradition.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

For Zen teachings, it is often "proof is in the pudding:" One knows that a strawberry cheesecake tastes good, and that the recipe is successful, because it tastes good ... one knows that a light bulb works because there is light ... one knows that there is air to breathe because one breathes, and it is not necessary to know the name of the baker, the physics of photons or the physiology of the respiratory system to know those things and to savor and see in the darkness and breathe.

For other kinds of knowledge, such as whether "the world is a simulation," or there is a "Bardo" or that (as ancient Buddhists believed, until very recently in fact: https://tricycle.org/magazine/first-...e-no-mountain/ ) the earth is flat, I may need some other kinds of proof, and if I am writing a cook book, designing light bulbs or a doctor studying the respiratory system, perhaps I need the technical details more.

However, Zen folks know to savor the sweetness, summon the Illumination, flow like the wind.

Gassho, J

STLah

Yes, the need for positive evidence I would primarily apply to the simulation issue or roundness of the earth. Spiritual paths are more experiential and so they follow a different criteria (although experience and how we think about it is an evidence of a sort).

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

Some early Buddhist writings are nothing if not analytical and skeptical in orientation so out of the many world religions it seems like there would be a special place for that as a Buddhist approach.

Yes, but how often they were too analytical, caught in their own "angels on the head of a pin" tangles and imaginings ... rather than feeling the sting of the pin prick.

Since Buddha is presented as wanting people to test the teachings out for themselves it seems like it would be anti-dharmic to assume that everything we might ever want to know or think is clearly laid out in a single tradition.

There is more than one way to bake a strawberry cheesecake, some delicious and some just tasteless or terrible (although different tongues may disagree). Personally, I believe that Shikantaza ... learning to just be without the endless "more more more", sitting without running always for what's next, learning to flow so as not to be flooded with aversions and attractions, being satisfied even amid this often dissatisfying life ... learning to seek more and not seek more AT ONCE TOGETHER, be still in motion, flow in dry times and wet, be satisfied both when satisfied and when not ...

... is a set of insights and skills that the vast, vast majority of people in this hungry, restless world could use right now.

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

Yes, but how often they were too analytical, caught in their own "angels on the head of a pin" tangles and imaginings ... rather than feeling the sting of the pin prick.



There is more than one way to bake a strawberry cheesecake, some delicious and some just tasteless or terrible (although different tongues may disagree). Personally, I believe that Shikantaza ... learning to just be without the endless "more more more", sitting without running always for what's next, learning to flow so as not to be flooded with aversions and attractions, being satisfied even amid this often dissatisfying life ... learning to seek more and not seek more AT ONCE TOGETHER, be still in motion, flow in dry times and wet, be satisfied both when satisfied and when not ...

... is a set of insights and skills that the vast, vast majority of people in this hungry, restless world could use right now.

Gassho, J

STLah

I wouldn't want to judge if a Buddhist text, or any text for that matter, was too analytical because I'm not inclined to think there is such a thing unless you can't do anything else. The day you can't meditate, or enjoy the simple taste of food, or relish a poem, or lose yourself in embrace, or see the forest along with the trees, on that day you have become too analytical. Other than that when you sip coffee you sip coffee even though it is different from eating mashed potatoes and when you are thinking about the various inter-related issues in the world of Buddhist (and Zen) thought, then that is simply what you are doing at that time even though it is different from sitting unattached to concepts receiving the whole world while simultaneously letting it go.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

I wouldn't want to judge if a Buddhist text, or any text for that matter, was too analytical because I'm not inclined to think there is such a thing unless you can't do anything else. The day you can't meditate, or enjoy the simple taste of food, or relish a poem, or lose yourself in embrace, or see the forest along with the trees, on that day you have become too analytical. Other than that when you sip coffee you sip coffee even though it is different from eating mashed potatoes and when you are thinking about the various inter-related issues in the world of Buddhist (and Zen) thought, then that is simply what you are doing at that time even though it is different from sitting unattached to concepts receiving the whole world while simultaneously letting it go.

In your words above, perhaps you are being too analytical.

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

In your words above, perhaps you are being too analytical.

Gassho, J

STLah

In my words above it is clear I don't think there is such a thing unless it impedes your poetic appreciation of life. Everything in its place.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah