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Thread: Zen, zazen and awareness in sleep/lucid dreaming as a practice

  1. #1

    Smile Zen, zazen and awareness in sleep/lucid dreaming as a practice

    Zen is all life and zazen is a lot about awareness, so do you think that awareness should continue during dreaming and sleep (we often just pass out and only rember few dreams, if any)?
    In Tibetan Buddhism there is a practice called Yoga of dream and sleep thanks to which it is possible to continue to be aware during sleep, however it is so packed with cultural "luggage" that it is difficult for non Tibetan to follow. The only similar thing in Zen tradition I came across are stories about Zen masters sitting nightly zazen, trying to fight off sleep by jabbing themselves in a leg with a giblet (there are some less extreme examples too
    Practice during sleep is something I would like to explore, has anyone of you had any experience with zazen and being aware in sleep?

    Gassho
    Sat

  2. #2
    Hi Ania

    Personally I think that when it is time to sleep, just sleep.

    But that is just my opinion and there are doubtless others.

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    -sattoday/lah-

  3. #3
    When it is time to sleep, just sleep.

    Those fellows poking themselves all night are mostly those Rinzai folks, pushing themselves to the breaking point in search of the big, booming Kensho.

    Dogen said that all of life is just a dream, and night or day, all is a dream within a dream, so just dream this life well.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  4. #4
    Hi Ania,

    The Yoga of Dreams is, I think, part of the Vajrayana sect of Tibetan Buddhism -- far outside the scope of Zen and zazen practice. I have learned from a Tibetan Lama who is from that particular tradition, but only some of the Bardo lessons, basic meditation, and tonglen practices.

    Zen, and Soto Zen, is just Zen. Tibetan Buddhism is very different. It's kind of like comparing swimming to walking -- both are exercises, but are very different processes.

    It is good to learn about different branches and cultures in Buddhism. But practicing different forms together can become confusing sometimes, in my experience. Just my opinion.

    Gassho2, meian st lh

    Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
    My life is my temple and my practice.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Meian View Post
    Hi Ania,

    The Yoga of Dreams is, I think, part of the Vajrayana sect of Tibetan Buddhism -- far outside the scope of Zen and zazen practice. I have learned from a Tibetan Lama who is from that particular tradition, but only some of the Bardo lessons, basic meditation, and tonglen practices.

    Zen, and Soto Zen, is just Zen. Tibetan Buddhism is very different. It's kind of like comparing swimming to walking -- both are exercises, but are very different processes.

    It is good to learn about different branches and cultures in Buddhism. But practicing different forms together can become confusing sometimes, in my experience. Just my opinion.

    Gassho2, meian st lh

    Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
    It is interesting though to see that some practices such as Tonglen (Tibetan) and Metta (possibly pre-Buddha) leaked into modern Zen practice becoming "supplementary" and others didn't. Is it known if Dogen did Tonglen or Metta?

    Gassho
    Sat
    Always curious
    Ania

  6. #6
    Zen use of Tonglen and metta do not involve practices or concepts such as astral projection, telepathy, or dream/energetic body work in other realms (that I know of). Zen version (in my opinion) basically offers compassion and resets the mind space at peace (more importantly) towards others -- and what is more crucial than creating more peace between human beings in this world?

    Certain Tibetan Buddhist practices involve complex visualization techniques, along with a pantheon of deities and various beings, rituals, mantras, offerings. This is outside the scope of Zen.

    Gassho2, meian st lh



    Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
    My life is my temple and my practice.

  7. #7
    It is interesting though to see that some practices such as Tonglen (Tibetan) and Metta (possibly pre-Buddha) leaked into modern Zen practice becoming "supplementary" and others didn't. Is it known if Dogen did Tonglen or Metta?
    As Meian said, the practices that have leaked into modern Zen have tended to be the less esoteric ones. Jundo allowed me to teach tonglen here as part of helping people with chronic illness and long-term pain, and American Zen teacher Norman Fischer wrote a book on Tibetan lojong (mind training) called Training in Compassion.

    I very much doubt that Dōgen would have done tonglen, as it was largely a product of the Tibetan tradition, but I think it is near certain that he knew of metta since, as you say, it is at least as old as the Buddha himself and firmly part of mainstream dharma practice. Whether he did explicit metta practices I don't know but there is no mention that I know of. Jundo might have a better idea.

    The man considered the second founder of Sōtō Zen, Keizan Jōkin (1264–1325), did have dream experiences, some of which I believe told him where to build temples and images to use for protection (read the Biography and Basic Information section on him here) I don't think he had a dream practice such as you are talking about but it does show that this kind of thing does appear in our tradition but the difference appears to be that they are not sought after in the same way as in Tibetan Dream Yoga (Milam) which is, as Meian says, part of vajrayana practice.

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    -sattoday/lah-
    Last edited by Kokuu; 08-20-2020 at 04:44 PM.

  8. #8
    Apologies for going over 3 sentence in the following quote. I just wondered about your views about it?

    "In the "Ten Stages Discourse" of the Avatamsaka Sutra we find:
    “At the seventh level of sainthood, one has no obstructions in dreams, and can study at one’s will.”

    This is referring to meditation. If one falls asleep during meditation and can still concentratedly study in one’s dream, then one has reached the seventh level of sainthood. A Bodhisattva who has reached this level can continue to meditate in dreams, although this may not be possible if he falls into a deep sleep.

    But there is a level where this is possible even in a very deep sleep. We also find from "Ten Stages Discourse": “It may look like the Bodhisattva is sleeping, but really he is not.” No matter how deep his sleep, his mind is still as clear as if he were wide awake. If one can keep this mental state of clarity all the time, through waking and sleeping, then one has reached the level of complete freedom which is beyond the eighth level of sainthood. "


    Gassho
    Sat

  9. #9
    Hello Ania,

    Generally, in Soto Zen Buddhism, such passages are not taken so literally, and are seen as images of the religious mind seeking to express more subtle truths. When we sit Shikantaza, all "stages" are realized at once, and one sits as Buddha embodied. We realize that all of life is a dream of delusion and obstructions and, in our sitting, all obstructions fall away and only clarity remains. This is true "waking" from the delusions in which we typically live. "Study" here is probably better translated as something closer to "Practice," so only unobstructed Practice remains.

    The reference to being awake and clear within the dream can be understood as our being awake even as we continue to live in the ordinary "dream-like" world of Samsara.

    I would not take the description to literally refer to controlling ordinary dreams and doing one's schoolwork while dreaming. Instead of the true Wisdom and insight of someone advanced on the path, that instead seems like a small and silly talent to care about even if someone attains such lucid dreaming.

    (Sorry, I dreamed more than 3 lines. )

    Gassho, Jundo

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 09-26-2020 at 08:24 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  10. #10
    I found an article that seems to be the source of your question, Ania,

    http://www.buddhism.org/on-meditation/

    The author seems to speak from a rather goal and stage oriented school of Korean Rinzai Buddhism, with rather literal descriptions of the idealized Bodhisattvas and Buddhas with miraculous powers. It is a very literal interpretation of the passage you quote.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Hello Ania,

    Generally, in Soto Zen Buddhism, such passages are not taken so literally, and are seen as images of the religious mind seeking to express more subtle truths. When we sit Shikantaza, all "stages" are realized at once, and one sits as Buddha embodied. We realize that all of life is a dream of delusion and obstructions and, in our sitting, all obstructions fall away and only clarity remains. This is true "waking" from the delusions in which we typically live. "Study" here is probably better translated as something closer to "Practice," so only unobstructed Practice remains.

    The reference to being awake and clear within the dream can be understood as our being awake even as we continue to live in the ordinary "dream-like" world of Samsara.

    I would not take the description to literally refer to controlling ordinary dreams and doing one's schoolwork while dreaming. Insteade of the true Wisdom and insight of someone advanced on the path, that instead seems like a small and silly talent to care about even if someone attains such lucid dreaming.

    (Sorry, I dreamed more than 3 lines. )

    Gassho, Jundo

    STLah
    Thank you��
    It is good to clarify what is beneficial for the practice and what is/can be just a side effect, gimmick or a skill.
    Gassho
    Sat

  12. #12
    Member Getchi's Avatar
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    This is golden, thankyou Jundo.
    Nothing to do? Why not Sit?

  13. #13
    As a side note-- and this is NOT part of our suggested practices at Treeleaf:

    I am prone to lucid dreaming and am curious about sitting zazen in a dream, just to see what it's like and NOT to achieve any kind of special state.

    Gassho
    Sat today, lah
    求道芸化 Kyūdō Geika
    I am just a priest-in-training, please do not take anything I say as a teaching.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Geika View Post
    I am prone to lucid dreaming and am curious about sitting zazen in a dream, just to see what it's like and NOT to achieve any kind of special state.
    What makes you assume that you are not doing so all the time?

    (Did I blow your mind??? )

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    What makes you assume that you are not doing so all the time?

    (Did I blow your mind??? )

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    My mind is blown that I did not think of that in the first place!

    Gassho
    Sat today, lah
    求道芸化 Kyūdō Geika
    I am just a priest-in-training, please do not take anything I say as a teaching.

  16. #16
    The future of "Dreams on Demand" ...

    Dream-shaping tech from MIT channels suggestions into your dreams

    MIT scientists have figured out how to manipulate your dreams by combining an app with a sleep-tracking device called Dormio. In their new study, the researchers were able to insert certain topics into a person's dreams, with some pretty bizarre outcomes.

    To do so, the researchers at MIT Media Lab's Fluid Interfaces — a group that develops wearable systems and interfaces to enhance cognitive skills — used a technique called targeted dream incubation (TDI).

    Prior studies have shown that during a rare dream state known lucid dreaming, in which a sleeper is aware that a dream is taking place, dreamers can use that awareness to consciously shape aspects of their dreams. TDI takes advantage of an early sleep stage, known as hypnagogia, to achieve a similar result (though not quite "controlling" dreams outright) ...

    During hypnagogia — a semi-lucid dream state that occurs during the onset of sleep — TDI introduced "targeted information" to a sleeper, "enabling direct incorporation of this information into dream content," the scientists wrote in a new study, published in the August issue of the journal Consciousness and Cognition. They conducted dream experiments by performing "serial awakenings" during daytime napping sessions in 25 participants.

    Subjects first recorded audio prompts in an app, such as, "remember to think of a tree" and "remember to observe your thoughts," and then prepared for sleep, according to the study.

    A hand-worn sleep tracker monitored the subject's heart rate, electrical changes on the skin surface, and the amount their fingers were bent or relaxed, to detect when a sleeper entered hypnagogia and was therefore "open to influence from outside audio cues," said lead study author Adam Haar Horowitz, a doctoral candidate in MIT Media Lab's Fluid Interfaces Group.

    ... "Simply put, people tell us whether the prompts appear in their dream," Haar Horowitz said. "Often, they are transformed — a 'tree' prompt becomes a tree-shaped car — but direct incorporation is easily identified."

    The scientists found that 67% of the subjects' dream reports mentioned dreams that incorporated a tree. "I was following the roots with someone and the roots were transporting me to different locations," one participant recalled. Another mentioned "a tree from my childhood, from my backyard. It never asked for anything." The same subject, in later awakenings, described "trees splitting into infinite pieces" and "a shaman, sitting under the tree with me, he tells me to go to South America."

    ...

    Creative brainstorming would likely be the most immediate application for targeted dreaming, Haar Horowitz said. But as many of the mechanisms that control sleep and dreaming are not well understood, it's too soon to say precisely how nudging a dream's content or achieving a state of awareness while dreaming could directly benefit a sleeper in other ways, he added.

    "Every benefit shown to be correlated to dreaming deserves an experiment on whether it can be causally shown to come from dreaming," Haar Horowitz said. "This ranges from past work on nightmares and PTSD to current work on language learning in sleep, or creativity and eureka moments in dreams."

    https://www.livescience.com/dream-ma...n-machine.html
    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  17. #17
    Member Seishin's Avatar
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    sat lah dreamt


    Seishin

    Sei - Meticulous
    Shin - Heart

  18. #18
    Seishin, I dreamt that you would post this ...





    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  19. #19

  20. #20
    Member brucef's Avatar
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    In my Tibetan Buddhist days, I was taught that the Vajrayana practice of dream yoga was primarily a means of preparing for the Bardo, that transition state between rebirths. By learning to function in the dream body, we learn to function in the bardo body after death, thus helping to ensure a good rebirth (or even enlightenment). I was therefore taught it as an integral part of the whole karma/rebirth package that I used to believe in 100%.

    These days though, I don’t know.

    Gassho
    Bruce
    Sat lah

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by brucef View Post
    In my Tibetan Buddhist days, I was taught that the Vajrayana practice of dream yoga was primarily a means of preparing for the Bardo, that transition state between rebirths. By learning to function in the dream body, we learn to function in the bardo body after death, thus helping to ensure a good rebirth (or even enlightenment). I was therefore taught it as an integral part of the whole karma/rebirth package that I used to believe in 100%.

    These days though, I don’t know.

    Gassho
    Bruce
    Sat lah
    I found Tibetan practices to difficult, to much foreign visualisation for me. What fascinates me is the possibility of cultivating awareness in sleep and dream in a similar way we can do it during the day. Being aware of getting lost in internal storytelling, daydreaming, emotions etc, being open awareness during sitting zazen, noticing thoughts passing by - similarly we can be aware and notice that we are asleep and dreaming (the contents of lucid dreaming and what we can do with it is not that important - the lucidity is) and maybe possibly in a dreamless deep sleep we can notice open awareness...

    Gassho Sat

  22. #22
    I tried to do dream yoga for some time while I was practising in a Tibetan Sangha. The few times I was actually lucid during the dream state I woke up the next day much more tired than usual and I even had a hard time sometimes to distinguish reality from dreaming. I feel that sleeping is a sacred act, in the sense that our whole body needs to rest. No need to mess with consciousness in our sleep.

    Gassho, Tomás
    Sat

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomás Sard View Post
    I tried to do dream yoga for some time while I was practising in a Tibetan Sangha. The few times I was actually lucid during the dream state I woke up the next day much more tired than usual and I even had a hard time sometimes to distinguish reality from dreaming. I feel that sleeping is a sacred act, in the sense that our whole body needs to rest. No need to mess with consciousness in our sleep.

    Gassho, Tomás
    Sat
    I tend to agree in the Zen world as well, in which some folks go to extremes with sitting sometimes. I posted this elsewhere this week, about Sawaki Roshi, Buddha love him, and his extremely sleep deprived Sesshin, his successor Uchiyama Roshi, and his successor Okumura Roshi's "Sanshin" group in the USA. From an essay by Okumura Roshi,

    "Sawaki Roshi's emphasis was on zazen. He and his students held monthly sesshin, during which they sat 50-minute zazen periods from 2 am to midnight, with three meal breaks. From midnight to 2 am, no one carried the kyosaku and practitioners could sleep for those two hours sitting there on their cushions."

    "Uchiyama Roshi also decided that human beings need a certain amount of sleep in order to maintain mental health, so his sesshin schedule allowed for 7 hours of rest rather than two hours' dozing on the cushion. Under this schedule, he said, there was no excuse for sleeping during zazen. He did not change the 50-minute zazen and 10-minute kinhin periods, and these still make up the pattern of practice at Sanshin. ... [At Sanshin,] The day consists solely of fourteen 50-minute periods of zazen, with three one-hour meal periods and about six hours of sleep."
    Some monks, especially in the Rinzai traditions (although some hard core folks in Soto too as shown above) undertake the practice of sleeping in the Lotus Posture (from p. 193 here, describing the practice in Korean Son [Zen] Rinzai monasteries):

    https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=...eeping&f=false

    Sleeping in a sitting position without ever lying down (changjwa purwa) is one of the twelve ascetic practices sanctioned by the Buddha,23 which
    he recommended for developing vigor and for counteracting the hindrance of sloth and torpor. Most masters have tried this practice themselves and recommend it for particularly intensive periods of meditation. In Korea, most monks who cultivate it simply sit on their ordinary sitting cushion, perhaps allowing their heads to nod as they sleep. The supports and straps that were so common among Chinese monks who engaged in this practice were never used in Korea, so far as I know; Koreans told me that if you were going to undertake this practice, you might as well do it right or not even try it. Leaning against the wall when trying to sit up is also discouraged: touching the cold mud wall of the typical Korean building is considered to be extremely unhealthy, causing everything from colds to arthritis.

    Most monks who decide not to lie down to sleep often do so for only limited periods, one month to one retreat season being the most common. Some monks claim to have done it for much longer. Songch'ol sunim, the Son [Zen] master at Haein-sa, is well known not to have lain down to sleep for fourteen years during his training, not even deigning to lean against a wall to rest. One older monk I knew, who was the succentor of the meditation hall for a winter retreat at Songgwang-sa, had continued with the practice for a number of years and said that it made him feel more energetic. Sleep, he felt, was like a drug that only numbed the spirit and he always encouraged other monks to cut back as far as possible on the number of hours they slept. The only concession he made to his advancing age was to allow himself to lie down when he was traveling; otherwise, he always sat up. Occasionally, a group of two or three monks might make a vow together never to lie down in the meditation hall, as a kind of a mutual support pact.

    As with so many other ascetic practices, monks who have slept sitting for long periods all say that the first month is particularly trying, but that later the difficulty gradually subsides until finally one actually feels more energetic. But many monks I have talked with questioned the efficacy of never lying down over long periods of time. They pointed out that eventually there is so much accumulated tiredness in the body that one tends to fall asleep whenever one is sitting, rather than just for a few hours each night. Then meditation suffers, as sitting degenerates into a convenient excuse for sleeping all day long. These monks advocated that it was better in the long run to keep to a regular schedule of three or four hours of deep sleep, which give one the rest one needs to meditate without indulging in recumbency. From my own observations, monks who were practicing never lying down tended to nod off during meditation, suggesting that their critics had a valid point. Sometimes they even fell forward, their heads resting on the floor in front of their cushion, snoring.
    Incredibly, the Koreans also engage in a grueling week of seven days without sleeping at all (my research indicates that it is a few days short of when serious brain damage can set in) ...

    During yongmaeng chongjin, the monks in meditation hall do not sleep for seven straight days, breaking from their practice only for meals. ... The hope is that several days of sleeplessness will apply enough pressure on the meditators that they will be able to have a genuine breakthrough into their hwadu [Koan word or phrase]. Just before yongmaeng chongjin begins, the Son master tries to impress upon the meditators that the only way they will be able to survive the week is to remain concentrated at all times on their hwadu ... By sheer force of will, and an acute sense of embarrassment at the prospect of being forced to drop out of the retreat, I was managing to maintain at least some semblance of practice during the first couple of days. But after the third day, even this trace was lost. I had degenerated to the point where I could no longer tell whether I was asleep or awake. I remember several times being totally confused as to whether the guard carrying the stick was actually hitting me, or whether I was dreaming the whole thing. During walking meditation I might as well have been walking in space, so ungrounded and amorphous did I feel. I was not alone in that. During one walking session, one of the other monks fell asleep while rounding the corner of the room and walked straight through one of the wood-and-paper doors along the side of the hall. He was rudely awakened as he toppled onto the wooden veranda outside. At the end of the retreat when we were finally allowed to sleep, I collapsed at my seat, utterly exhausted. Although we were supposed to awaken at three in the morning to begin anew our regular meditation schedule, I could not be roused. The monks left me laid out on my cushion and sat and walked around me. It was not until just before the late-morning meditation period began at eight that I finally awoke. Fortunately, in subsequent retreats my practice had matured to the point where I could maintain extended periods of concentration on the hwadu. Then it really was quite remarkable how effective—even almost refreshing, in a bizarre sort of way—such intensive practice could be. (p. 189)
    While I believe that Zazen can substitute in some ways for sleep (my personal experience during a few sleep deprived Sesshin), I find the above extreme and unhealthy. I believe that people engaged in Shikantaza should sleep healthy amounts, e.g., normal sleep of 7 or 8 hours.

    Gassho, J

    STLah

    (Sorry, ran way too long without resting here too)
    Last edited by Jundo; 09-30-2020 at 01:21 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  24. #24
    PS -Even in Soto monasteries, sometimes folks would sleep in the Lotus Position. In order to accomplish this, they would put a stick under their chin, and loop a rope from the ceiling under their arms. They used a special wooden support called a "Zenpan" to hold the chin up.

    "Zenpan" description here:

    https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=...0zazen&f=false

    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    PS -Even in Soto monasteries, sometimes folks would sleep in the Lotus Position. In order to accomplish this, they would put a stick under their chin, and loop a rope from the ceiling under their arms. They used a special wooden support called a "Zenpan" to hold the chin up.

    "Zenpan" description here:

    https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=...0zazen&f=false

    Wow.. it’s a stone trow’s away from the gruesome practices performed by the monks who used to mummify themselves in Japan... Some of those mummies I believe actually still have the rope tied to them..

    SatToday lah
    Bion
    -------------------------
    When you put Buddha’s activity into practice, only then are you a buddha. When you act like a fool, then you’re a fool. - Sawaki Roshi

  26. #26
    The reasons for so called "Zen sickness". I wonder why such drasctic methods that in a way lead to changes in brain and "artificially" alerted consciousness are seen as noble but ingesting psychodelic plants in it's original form (I don't mean drugs that lead to addiction) are seen as unwholesome?
    Gassho
    Sat

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Ania View Post
    The reasons for so called "Zen sickness". I wonder why such drasctic methods that in a way lead to changes in brain and "artificially" alerted consciousness are seen as noble but ingesting psychodelic plants in it's original form (I don't mean drugs that lead to addiction) are seen as unwholesome?
    Gassho
    Sat
    Well, most Zen teachers that I know reject both.

    A little experimentation is fine, but such practices as extreme sleep deprivation or drug use ... usually found in some extreme form of practice ... are frowned upon. Running or weight lifting is also a good activity, and maybe a marathon or pushing oneself now and then ... but some people can go to extremes there too. All in moderation and in its place.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 09-30-2020 at 01:14 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  28. #28

  29. #29
    I think that awareness excludes dreaming, So you rely on intuition or visions.
    I think itÂ’s possible to have dreamless sleep and maybe even some kind of awareness of sleep but itÂ’s not something to strive for.
    Just sitting is enough.

    Sat
    🙏💜

  30. #30
    Hi Ania,
    I had a period of a couple years around 20 years of age where I would spontaneously lucid dream almost nightly. I was quite fascinated by that state of consciousness, being aware during dreaming, and would record my dreams upon waking, which I believe supported the skill, recognizing and returning to that state.
    Some years later, after having been studying some Buddhism and meditating off and on, I picked up a book called The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep, by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche, a Tibetan trained in the Bon tradition. Rinpoche wrote "If we cannot carry our practice into sleep, if we lose ourselves every night, what chance do we have to be aware when death comes? Look to your experience in dreams to know how you will fare in death. Look to your experience of sleep to discover whether or not you are truly awake."
    This struck a chord with me, sort of validating how I felt that my experiences were valuable. It made sense to me; why not utilize all those hours usually spent in unconsciousness, meditating, aware. I began to do some of the practices that promote lucidity, both from the book, and other techniques I had learned of elsewhere. They worked to varying degrees, mainly depending on how much I applied them. I never achieved a steady, relaxed state - I was always flying around and exploring/creating the rich and unbelievably realistic inner world.
    Then busy life found me neglecting much of my inner pursuits, I did not actively seek to promote the state, and my lucid dreaming became quite infrequent.
    Today, they occur here and there, and are always interesting, but not necessarily supportive of our shared goals here. Though, I still believe the state has great potential, in that it is a huge chunk of time where you can meditate, if you can train yourself to do so in that state (which I think is very possible if you can resist the urge to fly! I imagine that having an established zazen practice would be supportive of attaining lucid dreaming.
    Thanks for the reminder and wishing you waking dreams,

    Gassho,
    Erik

  31. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    Hi Ania,
    I had a period of a couple years around 20 years of age where I would spontaneously lucid dream almost nightly. I was quite fascinated by that state of consciousness, being aware during dreaming, and would record my dreams upon waking, which I believe supported the skill, recognizing and returning to that state.
    Some years later, after having been studying some Buddhism and meditating off and on, I picked up a book called The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep, by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche, a Tibetan trained in the Bon tradition. Rinpoche wrote "If we cannot carry our practice into sleep, if we lose ourselves every night, what chance do we have to be aware when death comes? Look to your experience in dreams to know how you will fare in death. Look to your experience of sleep to discover whether or not you are truly awake."
    This struck a chord with me, sort of validating how I felt that my experiences were valuable. It made sense to me; why not utilize all those hours usually spent in unconsciousness, meditating, aware. I began to do some of the practices that promote lucidity, both from the book, and other techniques I had learned of elsewhere. They worked to varying degrees, mainly depending on how much I applied them. I never achieved a steady, relaxed state - I was always flying around and exploring/creating the rich and unbelievably realistic inner world.
    Then busy life found me neglecting much of my inner pursuits, I did not actively seek to promote the state, and my lucid dreaming became quite infrequent.
    Today, they occur here and there, and are always interesting, but not necessarily supportive of our shared goals here. Though, I still believe the state has great potential, in that it is a huge chunk of time where you can meditate, if you can train yourself to do so in that state (which I think is very possible if you can resist the urge to fly! I imagine that having an established zazen practice would be supportive of attaining lucid dreaming.
    Thanks for the reminder and wishing you waking dreams,

    Gassho,
    Erik
    You reflect exactly my thoughts and approach, although I only had few lucid dreams. For me the dreams and waking reality are not that different and maybe possibly have the same substance. You can be so preoccupied in daily daydreaming, attaching to opinions, likes and dislikes, hardly ever present but mostly lost in the past or future. Similarly, the dreams have so much power that they draw you in the bizzare world without realising - you only know you were dreaming once you wake up. And we can wake up to our reality, having this moments of awareness : am I washing the dishes fully aware or am I so lost a political debate going on in my head that I end up braking a cup?
    Recognising the moments when I'm not aware is part of my practice : in daily reality, in sleep and dreams (much harder) and in zazen.
    I'm aware of going over 3 sentences


    Gassho

    Sat

  32. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    Though, I still believe the state has great potential, in that it is a huge chunk of time where you can meditate, if you can train yourself to do so in that state (which I think is very possible if you can resist the urge to fly! I imagine that having an established zazen practice would be supportive of attaining lucid dreaming.
    If one sits Shikantaza in a dream, all is ordinary, sacred, strange and nothing special, with nothing to attain.

    If one sits Shikantaza outside a dream, all is ordinary, sacred, strange and nothing special, with nothing to attain.

    In truth, there is no inside or outside of a dream.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  33. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    If one sits Shikantaza in a dream, all is ordinary, sacred, strange and nothing special, with nothing to attain.

    If one sits Shikantaza outside a dream, all is ordinary, sacred, strange and nothing special, with nothing to attain.

    In truth, there is no inside or outside of a dream.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    This!


    Gassho
    Sat

  34. #34


    SatToday
    流道
    Ryū Dou

  35. #35
    On the matter of these sleepless Sesshin and such ... I think that the old boys like Dogen and Sawaki Roshi used to think of sleep as a weakness to overcome, and did not think of it as a natural and NECESSARY physiological process ... like breathing or defecation ... that cannot and should not be overcome just by willpower. They did not understand how important sleep is to the body-mind's health. Now, we know better.

    Gassho, Jundo

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  36. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Ania View Post
    You reflect exactly my thoughts and approach, although I only had few lucid dreams. For me the dreams and waking reality are not that different and maybe possibly have the same substance. You can be so preoccupied in daily daydreaming, attaching to opinions, likes and dislikes, hardly ever present but mostly lost in the past or future. Similarly, the dreams have so much power that they draw you in the bizzare world without realising - you only know you were dreaming once you wake up. And we can wake up to our reality, having this moments of awareness : am I washing the dishes fully aware or am I so lost a political debate going on in my head that I end up braking a cup?
    Recognising the moments when I'm not aware is part of my practice : in daily reality, in sleep and dreams (much harder) and in zazen.
    I'm aware of going over 3 sentences


    Gassho

    Sat
    Indeed, waking up in dreams seems to support waking up in waking life.

    Gassho

    sat today

  37. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    On the matter of these sleepless Sesshin and such ... I think that the old boys like Dogen and Sawaki Roshi used to think of sleep as a weakness to overcome, and did not think of it as a natural and NECESSARY physiological process ... like breathing or defecation ... that cannot and should not be overcome just by willpower. They did not understand how important sleep is to the body-mind's health. Now, we know better.

    Gassho, Jundo

    STLah
    Yes, indeed, we need that deep dreamless sleep for rest and repair!


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