Zen, Bodhisattva vow and veganism/vegetarianism

[Inshin]

I'm aware that Buddha himself used to eat meat, partly because he accepted (without craving or rejection) what was offered to him, and also at his times meat wasn't consumed at such a rate as nowadays.

Considering the scale of animal suffering and ecological destruction modern meat industry causes, should modern Bodhisattvas be vegan or a least vegetarian with as much avoidance of any animal "product" as possible?

I know of Zen monasteries that serve only vegan food, but there are also some where meat is consumed. I am very curious of what you all think of it.

Gassho
Sat

[Bion]

I'm aware that Buddha himself used to eat meat, partly because he accepted (without craving or rejection) what was offered to him, and also at his times meat wasn't consumed at such a rate as nowadays.

Considering the scale of animal suffering and ecological destruction modern meat industry causes, should modern Bodhisattvas be vegan or a least vegetarian with as much avoidance of any animal "product" as possible?

I know of Zen monasteries that serve only vegan food, but there are also some where meat is consumed. I am very curious of what you all think of it.

Gassho
Sat

I personally am a vegetarian and I made that choice because my conscience led me there, but I eat well without including meat in my diet and I feel like killing any creature or eating a dead being’s flesh is not really necessary for my survival. I did find myself in situations where I was unexpectedly invited at friends’ houses and they weren’t ready to feed a vegetarian so I chose to show respect and gratitude by eating whatever I could while still avoiding red meat or chicken. My thinking is that what others feel is right or correct is not necessarily what your conscience might dictate for you and that’s fine because in time, after practice and learning, everything will fall into place for everyone and you’ll naturally do what’s right.

SatToday lah

[Juki]

I am a vegetarian for ethical reasons relating to the mistreatment of animals in the food system. But, I don't believe it's required to be a good Buddhist or a Bodhisattva. Millions of Buddhists living at high altitudes in the Himalayas or in higher latitudes like Mongolia do not have access to a completely vegetarian diet due simply to where they live and the inability to grow grains and vegetables in sufficient quantity, so they have to make use of animal products and it does not lessen their practice. I think what's important is to really reflect on the food you take in -- its source and the processes by which it came to you, and this is why we have a meal gatha. Ultimately, you need to make your own choice.

Gassho,
Juki

sat today and lah

[Jundo]

Although I believe that vegetarianism is a good thing, especially in this world of industrial farming, I also feel that it is a matter of individual choice.

Japanese Buddhist priests and clergy tend to eat meat and fish (although there are many exceptions as a personal choice) when not in a training monastery, where the food served tends to be a very sophisticated kind of vegetarian cooking called "Shojin Ryori (which actually mimics many meat, chicken and fish textures using such items as certain mushrooms and tofu). I note that strict vegetarian became most common in Chinese Buddhism for various historical reasons, but the Indians, Thai and other South Asians, Tibetans, Koreans and Japanese were never fully vegetarian.

This is a good topic to discuss in some detail during our upcoming Precept reflections in Jukai on "avoiding the taking of life."

Gassho, J

STLah

[Kokuu]

I feel like killing any creature or eating a dead being’s flesh is not really necessary for my survival

Hi all

This usually comes up in respect of the first 'do not kill' precept but we are early this year!

If you are vegetarian and eat milk or eggs, you are still participating in the system of farming animals. Even vegan diets cause the death of animals through the production of fruit, vegetables and cereals and the use of pesticides and encroachment of habitat that occurs with that. In the end it is almost impossible avoid death as some part of the food chain.

However, that does not mean to say that we should not reflect deeply on our food choices and the interconnected web that brings them to us, in terms of the amount of suffering caused (both to humans and animals), and environmental harm through the method of production and food miles, and try to minimise that as much as we can.

It is also important to note that people have different degrees of choice around the food they buy - a single mother feeding a family cannot always afford to buy organic and may have to choose produce which comes from less sustainable and ethically raised methods.

At Treeleaf we ask everyone to consider their own diet and food choices in respect of the first precept, but not to judge anyone else on the conclusions they have come to. It is an entirely personal matter and no one gets to be "more Buddhist than thou". As has already been stated, the original Buddhist sangha was not vegetarian and there are no Buddhist rules on this (there is a section at the end of the Mahayana Laṅkāvatāra Sūtra which exhorts Buddhists to be vegetarian but the sutra itself was believed to have been composed around 350-400 CE and the part on vegetarianism added even later than that).

I was personally vegetarian or vegan for over twenty-five years before finding a need to add fish to my diet for health reasons.

Apologies for going over the three sentence rule.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Bion]

Although I believe that vegetarianism is a good thing, especially in this world of industrial farming, I also feel that it is a matter of individual choice.

Japanese Buddhist priests and clergy tend to eat meat and fish (although there are many exceptions as a personal choice) when not in a training monastery, where the food served tends to be a very sophisticated kind of vegetarian cooking called "Shojin Ryori (which actually mimics many meat, chicken and fish textures using such items as certain mushrooms and tofu). I note that strict vegetarian became most common in Chinese Buddhism for various historical reasons, but the Indians, Thai and other South Asians, Tibetans, Koreans and Japanese were never fully vegetarian.

This is a good topic to discuss in some detail during our upcoming Precept reflections in Jukai on "avoiding the taking of life."

Gassho, J

STLah

You know how amazing Shojin Ryori tastes!!!!


SatToday lah

[Bion]

Hi all

This usually comes up in respect of the first 'do not kill' precept but we are early this year!

If you are vegetarian and eat milk or eggs, you are still participating in the system of farming animals. Even vegan diets cause the death of animals through the production of fruit, vegetables and cereals and the use of pesticides and encroachment of habitat that occurs with that. In the end it is almost impossible avoid death as some part of the food chain.

However, that does not mean to say that we should not reflect deeply on our food choices and the interconnected web that brings them to us, in terms of the amount of suffering caused (both to humans and animals), and environmental harm through the method of production and food miles, and try to minimise that as much as we can.

It is also important to note that people have different degrees of choice around the food they buy - a single mother feeding a family cannot always afford to buy organic and may have to choose produce which comes from less sustainable and ethically raised methods.

At Treeleaf we ask everyone to consider their own diet and food choices in respect of the first precept, but not to judge anyone else on the conclusions they have come to. It is an entirely personal matter and no one gets to be "more Buddhist than thou". As has already been stated, the original Buddhist sangha was not vegetarian and there are no Buddhist rules on this (there is a section at the end of the Mahayana Laṅkāvatāra Sūtra which exhorts Buddhists to be vegetarian but the sutra itself was believed to have been composed around 350-400 CE and the part on vegetarianism added even later than that).

I was personally vegetarian or vegan for over twenty-five years before finding a need to add fish to my diet for health reasons.

Apologies for going over the three sentence rule.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

Exactly! Thanks. I made sure to refer to my choices.

SatToday lah

[Inshin]

I find myself in a bit of dilemma here. Knowing the scale of suffering the modern meat and dairy industry causes it is difficult for me to justify animal consumption and in a perfect environment I would probably be completely vegan. Yet my family eats meat, and since I'm not expert nutritionist I wouldn't dare to advise anyone on "right" diet, especially children. As a family chef I end up occasionally preparing meat and fish, but make sure that my vegan meals that they also eat are way tastier ��. I recommend to watch a beautiful episode of Chef's Table (available on Netflix) about Jeong Kwan. A South Korean Zen vegan chef who attracted attention of world's top renowned chefs. The way she expresses herself is so beautiful.

Gassho
Sat

[Bion]

I find myself in a bit of dilemma here. Knowing the scale of suffering the modern meat and dairy industry causes it is difficult for me to justify animal consumption and in a perfect environment I would probably be completely vegan. Yet my family eats meat, and since I'm not expert nutritionist I wouldn't dare to advise anyone on "right" diet, especially children. As a family chef I end up occasionally preparing meat and fish, but make sure that my vegan meals that they also eat are way tastier ��. I recommend to watch a beautiful episode of Chef's Table (available on Netflix) about Jeong Kwan. A South Korean Zen vegan chef who attracted attention of world's top renowned chefs. The way she expresses herself is so beautiful.

Gassho
Sat

There are many factors taken into account when deciding a diet, such as cultural and social background, economic situation, available products, health issues.. While you can’t justify meat consumption, the fisherman in China who has never traveled farther than his village, whose main source for food is the Ocean, whose house dangles from the cliff and gets sprayed by the waves every time the sea gets moody, might have a much more difficult time justifying not taking advantage of what is naturally available to him and his struggling family. We are all very different and thus our choices will be different but ultimately the Buddha taught the Middle way, the balanced way of no extremes and no attachments and that is what we try to follow.


SatToday lah

[Inshin]

There are many factors taken into account when deciding a diet, such as cultural and social background, economic situation, available products, health issues.. While you can’t justify meat consumption, the fisherman in China who has never traveled farther than his village, whose main source for food is the Ocean, whose house dangles from the cliff and gets sprayed by the waves every time the sea gets moody, might have a much more difficult time justifying not taking advantage of what is naturally available to him and his struggling family. We are all very different and thus our choices will be different but ultimately the Buddha taught the Middle way, the balanced way of no extremes and no attachments and that is what we try to follow.


SatToday lah

Thank you for your reply. I completely agree with your point. My interest in veganism is specifically related to Bodhisattva vow, those who consciously decide to end/reduce the suffering of all sentient beings.
Gassho
Satan

[Bion]

Thank you for your reply. I completely agree with your point. My interest in veganism is specifically related to Bodhisattva vow, those who consciously decide to end/reduce the suffering of all sentient beings.
Gassho
Satan

I understand, yeah. We’d have to get into the whole defining suffering topic and see what that means and what it entails and how much of our karmic consequences we can actually control or foresee.

SatToday lah

[Meitou]

Hi all


At Treeleaf we ask everyone to consider their own diet and food choices in respect of the first precept, but not to judge anyone else on the conclusions they have come to. It is an entirely personal matter and no one gets to be "more Buddhist than thou".

Apologies for going over the three sentence rule.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

Amen.
Gassho
Meitou
Sattoday

[gaurdianaq]

This will probably go over the 3 sentence rule so apologies in advanced.

I'm of the opinion that if everything is truly interconnected, then we can't view any life higher or lower than others. I don't doubt that plants can feel some form of pain/suffering even if it's not the same as animals tend to. I believe that whatever it is we eat we need to show respect and give thanks for the nourishment it provides us, be it meat or plant based. That being said as a society we've engaged in cruel practices when it comes to meat, we raise them in cruel conditions in order to maximize output. My personal view is that as a society we need to eat less meat, and try and ensure that the meat we get has been well treated in it's life. Unfortunately society has made this more difficult, because meat that is raised ethically is more expensive it is harder for people to afford, plus people have grown into a society that encourages mindless consumption of whatever tastes good. We're used to eating meat multiple times a day! Of course there is nothing wrong with vegetarianism either and no one should be denied that choice either.


Evan,
Sat today!

[Risho]

Amen.
Gassho
Meitou
Sattoday

Ditto to that Amen!

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

[Nenka]

At this point in my life, I feel the best I can do is to eat in moderation and don't let any food go to waste.

Gassho

Nenka
ST

[Meian]

It is also important to note that people have different degrees of choice around the food they buy ..... and may have to choose produce which comes from less sustainable and ethically raised methods.

At Treeleaf we ask everyone to consider their own diet and food choices in respect of the first precept, but not to judge anyone else on the conclusions they have come to. It is an entirely personal matter and no one gets to be "more Buddhist than thou".

Gassho2, meian st lh

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[Doshin]

After a life/career spent in mitigating the adverse impacts of farming on wildlife I concur with all that Kokuu shared.

Doshin
St

[Tomás ESP]

Due to my personal health issues (which are quite complex and involve both chronic illness and multiple dietary intolerances) and following strict orders from my doctors, I can't live as a vegetarian or a vegan. I am forced to eat meat. Therefore I do not think too much about it. I would probably be a vegetarian if I had a choice.

Gassho,
Sat&LaH

[Meian]

Due to my personal health issues (which are quite complex and involve both chronic illness and multiple dietary intolerances) and following strict orders from my doctors, I can't live as a vegetarian or a vegan. I am forced to eat meat. Therefore I do not think too much about it. I would probably be a vegetarian if I had a choice.

Gassho2, meian st lh

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[Onka]

I've only been vegan for 15 years and became one for ethical reasons and because it married up nicely with my anarchist politics. This personal choice to try and live cruelty free (a term I prefer than vegan) came about when I met my partner and learned about industrial farming. Most of the world is vegetarian not by choice but due to poverty (I acknowledge the fact that avoiding flesh is impossible for some remote living indigenous people) and while I accept members of the Sangha's choice to eat the flesh of sentient beings I personally think it's a cop out in most cases. Heading into my fourth and final sentence (sorry Jundo) Ania I share that my partner stopped eating sentient beings when she was 8 and refused to submit to her meat worker father's insistance that she not leave the table until she'd eaten the dead animal on her plate.
Gassho
Onka
ST

[Gareth]

I am a vegetarian, but I can imagine that a combine harvester is not much fun sometimes for mice or insects. Not all eggs or dairy products are created equally, either.

It is a difficult issue imo...

Gassho,
Gareth
Sat today

[Naiko]

I have been vegetarian, and then vegan, for a number of years. I never realized how deeply conflicted I was about eating meat until that tight knot of conflict was gone. I do think of this as part of my spiritual practice.
Gassho,
Krista
st/lah

[Elijah]

I don't have much to add than what's already been said. Just as we (humans) want to be happy and free from pain, so too do all animals, so we do our best to actualize that truth by eating less meat (or if you are able, completely eliminate). If anyone is interested in learning about the meat industry/animal treatment, Dominon is a great documentary:

[Risho]

It is an entirely personal matter and no one gets to be "more Buddhist than thou".

I have been reflecting on this, and I think this point is so important for me; my Judeo-Christian influences run deep; I don't mean that as a negative; rather, I do view the precepts as commandments even though they are not; I know they are not, but old habits die hard - especially the habit of ego protection. I come into Jukai practice/study with this chip on my shoulder that I have to prove how right and enlightened I am; hell, I come into this forum at times with an arrogance; I'm not listening or helping as much as I am trying to write something witty. As Onka would say, this isn't a pity party; it's just something that I've realized that I need to really work on. This is (not to go back to the belabored point) why I really like the 3 sentence limit; it relieves my ego from constantly having to prove myself; having to write and write and justify and show my "brilliance" (which I mean sarcastically). I mean it; I struggle with it, and that's why it's really good practice for me. I was dreading precepts study because I get angry when my views are threatened and I have to jump in, triggered, ego-bruised ready to show the world I'm right and you are wrong. I don't know when that happened; maybe it's always been there - I just know it really was a barrier for practice for the past few years. Zen, and the precepts are a foundational part of it of course, is liberating to me when I remember that I don't know everything; this isn't about my views - this is about dropping views and opening up. Which is why I need to sit more than write or speak; I know that's an important part too but really it's that constant dropping. Who is so threatened by not being "right" anyway?

Anyway thank you again Kokuu- I really, really like this, and I'm actually looking forward to Jukai study again.

Gassho,

Rish
-stlah

[Tairin]

Risho



Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Doshin]

Risho I relate.

Good introspection which taught me.

I have a lot to say on this topic but am just listening besides 3 sentences is not enough for me

Doshin
St

[Bokugan]

I have been vegetarian (vegan for a little while) for well over five years (probably closer to ten, lost count) due to ethical concerns with factory farming.

I believe it was Kokuu who mentioned reflecting on food choices and the amount of suffering they cause, which is my approach.

Totally a personal choice; my decision happens to align with the first precept, but I don't see it as a requirement and I would still be vegetarian if not Buddhist.

Gassho,

Ryan
Sat Today

[Meitou]

I have been reflecting on this, and I think this point is so important for me; my Judeo-Christian influences run deep; I don't mean that as a negative; rather, I do view the precepts as commandments even though they are not; I know they are not, but old habits die hard - especially the habit of ego protection. I come into Jukai practice/study with this chip on my shoulder that I have to prove how right and enlightened I am; hell, I come into this forum at times with an arrogance; I'm not listening or helping as much as I am trying to write something witty. As Onka would say, this isn't a pity party; it's just something that I've realized that I need to really work on. This is (not to go back to the belabored point) why I really like the 3 sentence limit; it relieves my ego from constantly having to prove myself; having to write and write and justify and show my "brilliance" (which I mean sarcastically). I mean it; I struggle with it, and that's why it's really good practice for me. I was dreading precepts study because I get angry when my views are threatened and I have to jump in, triggered, ego-bruised ready to show the world I'm right and you are wrong. I don't know when that happened; maybe it's always been there - I just know it really was a barrier for practice for the past few years. Zen, and the precepts are a foundational part of it of course, is liberating to me when I remember that I don't know everything; this isn't about my views - this is about dropping views and opening up. Which is why I need to sit more than write or speak; I know that's an important part too but really it's that constant dropping. Who is so threatened by not being "right" anyway?

Anyway thank you again Kokuu- I really, really like this, and I'm actually looking forward to Jukai study again.

Gassho,

Rish
-stlah

Rish
Meitou
Sattoday

[Nengei]

I have been reflecting on this, and I think this point is so important for me...

Yeah, me too. Thanks for this.

When I search myself, my wallowing in this tendency stems from my own lacking, of knowledge, of experience, of being who I seek to be.

Gassho,
Nengei
Sat. LAH.

[Eikyo]

Tangential perhaps but I don't think we need the Buddha or the precepts to help us understand if eating meat or animal products is wrong; if Buddha ate meat that still does absolutely nothing to justify the practice.

How can it be a matter of personal choice, when the agency of one of the parties is taken away?

I am sure that vegetables feel pain too but that point is always thrown out by meat eaters grasping at straws - truth is, if we want to minimise the amount of vegetables that we "hurt" then we would do well to eliminate animal products because animals eat far far more produce (soya, grain, etc.) than we do, so cumulatively you have the suffering of the animals you are eating, plus all of the things they ate throughout their lives.

There are some reasons (not related to Buddhism, precepts, etc) for not being vegan/vegetarian- for example, my husband is Type 1 diabetic and carbs are Not Good for him - and I love him so much I'd probably strangle a cow with my bare hands for him to eat if it meant he would be OK. Extenuating circumstances aside, many people do mental hula hoops to justify meat/animal product consumption, with and without Buddhism.

Sorry for going over three sentences, but this is a topic close to my heart, and I believe close to the heart of all the animals and our planet who is suffering.

Gassho,
Dee
#sattoday

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

[Risho]

This happens to be something I’m quite passionate about as well; there simply is nothing as nutritionally complete and bio-available for human beings than meat. I appreciate someone who chooses to be vegetarian or vegan but, frankly, I don’t appreciate the constant intimation that it is somehow morally superior. I don’t want to ruffle feathers but I’m just seriously over this conversation lol

gassho

risho
-stlah

[Rich]

Whatever you eat, do it with total awareness .
It’s such a sacred and ‘delicious’ act, you don’t want to miss a thing.
Eating and dreaming at the same time is not right.

Sat
🙏💜

[Meitou]

Whatever you eat, do it with total awareness .
It’s such a sacred and ‘delicious’ act, you don’t want to miss a thing.
Eating and dreaming at the same time is not right.

Sat
����

So important! And to honour what we eat as part of our privilege because as we pick and choose we need to be aware of those who have no choice, and often no food at all.
With gratitude
Meitou
Sattoday lah

[serenewolf]

All living beings are food for others. The industry is terrible, often inhumane, and kills millions of babies and children each day. Vegetarianism/veganism is good if you are in a position to make that choice, many in arctic or mountainous regions arent and cannot be faulted as long as consumption is what they need and not excessive.

Gassho
David
Sat

[Ryudo]

How can it be a matter of personal choice, when the agency of one of the parties is taken away?

������
Gassho SatToday

[Kyonin]

Hello all,

Having food at the table is a miracle of life and one should always be aware and grateful; a lettuce is also a living creature, it's just that we don't hear it scream when it's being dissolved in the acid of our stomachs. Regardless of what you choose to eat, life needs to feed on life to keep going. That's why we don't abuse whatever we eat because food is medicine for our practice and gives us energy to keep sitting Zazen on and on.

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAH

[Ekai]

Due to my personal health issues (which are quite complex and involve both chronic illness and multiple dietary intolerances) and following strict orders from my doctors, I can't live as a vegetarian or a vegan. I am forced to eat meat. Therefore I do not think too much about it. I would probably be a vegetarian if I had a choice.

Gassho,
Sat&LaH

I too have health and interlace issues which prevent me from going vegan as well. I would be all plant-based in a second without those challenges. For example, I have a terrible time with beans, a major source of protein for vegans. It messes up my body for a few days when I eat them. I really wish I could be vegan for the animals and the environment. It's an integral struggle.

Gassho,
Ekai

SAT

[Meian]

Having food at the table is a miracle of life and one should always be aware and grateful; a lettuce is also a living creature, it's just that we don't hear it scream when it's being dissolved in the acid of our stomachs. Regardless of what you choose to eat, life needs to feed on life to keep going. That's why we don't abuse whatever we eat because food is medicine for our practice and gives us energy to keep sitting Zazen on and on.

, meian st lh

[Eikyo]

Hello all,

Having food at the table is a miracle of life and one should always be aware and grateful; a lettuce is also a living creature, it's just that we don't hear it scream when it's being dissolved in the acid of our stomachs. Regardless of what you choose to eat, life needs to feed on life to keep going. That's why we don't abuse whatever we eat because food is medicine for our practice and gives us energy to keep sitting Zazen on and on.

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAH

With respect Kyonin, you don't mean to imply that eating a lettuce is ethically the same as eating an animal, do you?
I think this argument can too easily be used as an excuse to ignore the suffering that is caused when eating meat.
Yes we all feed on life, but some things cause even more suffering than others - and while cruelty free is impossible for anyone (even vegans) it doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

Gassho,
Dee
Sat today / LAH



Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

[nknibbs]

With respect Kyonin, you don't mean to imply that eating a lettuce is ethically the same as eating an animal, do you?
I think this argument can too easily be used as an excuse to ignore the suffering that is caused when eating meat.
Yes we all feed on life, but some things cause even more suffering than others - and while cruelty free is impossible for anyone (even vegans) it doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

Gassho,
Dee
Sat today / LAH



Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

With respect, I believe Kyonin’s point was to take into account interconnectedness and the universality of suffering. One cannot understand the suffering of all beings from the viewpoint of humanity’s insufficient grasp on reality. And if one were to engage in such things what of the nuances of human suffering? Can one say that he suffers more than she?

We should strive to abide by our understanding of the precepts and not elevate one’s practice over another’s. We should also thoughtfully consider our food choices regardless of our dietary particulars.

My apologies for going over 3 sentences and thank you all for your viewpoints and practice.

Gassho,
Nick
SatLah

[Eikyo]

With respect, I believe Kyonin’s point was to take into account interconnectedness and the universality of suffering. One cannot understand the suffering of all beings from the viewpoint of humanity’s insufficient grasp on reality. And if one were to engage in such things what of the nuances of human suffering? Can one say that he suffers more than she?

We should strive to abide by our understanding of the precepts and not elevate one’s practice over another’s. We should also thoughtfully consider our food choices regardless of our dietary particulars.

My apologies for going over 3 sentences and thank you all for your viewpoints and practice.

Gassho,
Nick
SatLah

Hi Nick,

I am certainly not trying to elevate one practice over another but to discuss things so that we can reach a common understanding. If we are saying as Buddhists, we can no longer distinguish between types of suffering, then it is like saying - "who am I to judge, if someone rapes, murders, etc." It would be unethical if we were not allowed to criticise such things.

Gassho,
Dee
ST/LAH

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[Risho]

Dee - I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue that killing animals doesn't cause suffering. At the same time, I think the point is that we are part of this circle of life. Also at the same time, a lot of the animals that are raised for food live a lot longer than if they were "murdered" in the wild by a predator. I'm not justifying factory farming at all by the way. But we are part of nature, and we are also animals, and we eat animals.

Everything in this universe eats and gets eaten. Frankly, meat contains so much bio-available nutrition not matched by any plant; that's why I eat meat. Now, I understand that anyone who chooses to eat vegetarian or vegan is choosing that path to reduce suffering. I get it, but to me eating is more of a nutritional matter point blank. My diet is very, very disciplined and I don't "live to eat". I eat for nutrition most of the time.

I don't hunt because of time, similar to how I don't farm or build my own house or make my own clothing. If that was my career path, I would absolutely hunt.

I have a high degree of respect for animals that I eat and I have a high degree of gratitude that I can even eat (to Kyonin's point); it's ridiculous that I have to worry more about what to eat or not eat than having to worry about survival. it's an incredibly fortunate position.

Again - I don't know that we can convince each other here on an internet forum to be either vegetarian, vegan or carnivore and I don't know that we should.

I just think the key points are: 1. anyone's choice is there own (thank you Kokuu), 2. although a lot of buddhists tend toward vegetarianism/veganism that isn't a core part of buddhism; so if it's your way of eating that's great, if not that's great and, most importantly, 3. let's not judge each other for what we eat; I think it tends to be divisive and turns into the holier than thou routine - it is not helpful to me in anyway; it's not helpful to you. If you don't eat meat - you have your reasons - and I think it's very egotistical of me to think I can convince you of the "proper way". And I would expect that same

I am not in any way in support of veganism or vegetarianism as much as I'm sure many people here aren't in favor of a mostly animal based diet. Great - beyond that - this just devolves into a religious discussion about what to eat vs not to eat.

Can we just all eat what we want and leave it at that without all this demagoguery?

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

[Juki]

Can we just all eat what we want and leave it at that without all this demagoguery?

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

from a vegetarian

Gassho,
Juki
sat today and lah

[Eikyo]

Dee - I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue that killing animals doesn't cause suffering. At the same time, I think the point is that we are part of this circle of life. Also at the same time, a lot of the animals that are raised for food live a lot longer than if they were "murdered" in the wild by a predator. I'm not justifying factory farming at all by the way. But we are part of nature, and we are also animals, and we eat animals.

Everything in this universe eats and gets eaten. Frankly, meat contains so much bio-available nutrition not matched by any plant; that's why I eat meat. Now, I understand that anyone who chooses to eat vegetarian or vegan is choosing that path to reduce suffering. I get it, but to me eating is more of a nutritional matter point blank. My diet is very, very disciplined and I don't "live to eat". I eat for nutrition most of the time.

I don't hunt because of time, similar to how I don't farm or build my own house or make my own clothing. If that was my career path, I would absolutely hunt.

I have a high degree of respect for animals that I eat and I have a high degree of gratitude that I can even eat (to Kyonin's point); it's ridiculous that I have to worry more about what to eat or not eat than having to worry about survival. it's an incredibly fortunate position.

Again - I don't know that we can convince each other here on an internet forum to be either vegetarian, vegan or carnivore and I don't know that we should.

I just think the key points are: 1. anyone's choice is there own (thank you Kokuu), 2. although a lot of buddhists tend toward vegetarianism/veganism that isn't a core part of buddhism; so if it's your way of eating that's great, if not that's great and, most importantly, 3. let's not judge each other for what we eat; I think it tends to be divisive and turns into the holier than thou routine - it is not helpful to me in anyway; it's not helpful to you. If you don't eat meat - you have your reasons - and I think it's very egotistical of me to think I can convince you of the "proper way". And I would expect that same

I am not in any way in support of veganism or vegetarianism as much as I'm sure many people here aren't in favor of a mostly animal based diet. Great - beyond that - this just devolves into a religious discussion about what to eat vs not to eat.

Can we just all eat what we want and leave it at that without all this demagoguery?

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

Hi Risho,

I agree, I absolutely don't want to argue as that is just counterproductive. I live with and am married to a meat eater - do we argue, absolutely not! It is his choice.

However when I see people making frankly silly arguments about vegetables crying out in pain as a way to dismiss vegetarianism.... well to me that is intellectual dishonesty and we shouldn't encourage that in our practice.

Far better to recognise the reality of the choices we are making - as you are doing, you are not deceiving yourself, you have looked at the facts and made the decision based on your assessment - as you quite rightly should do!

If people will stop making silly analogies and claiming that animal suffering is the same as vegetable suffering or anything else then I will gladly let this drop. It's not about superiority but intellectual honesty.

(Sorry for running over 3 sentences)

Gassho,
Dee
ST/LAH

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

[nknibbs]

It is absolutely not intellectual dishonesty to acknowledge suffering of all living beings. I also do not think anyone here is dismissing vegetarianism because of that. But subtly criticizing the practice of those that do eat meat (based on a scale of suffering) ascribes to the notion that one’s practice is superior— even if such an expression was unintentional.

And I mean absolutely no disrespect to you and your practice as expressed in your vegetarianism.

Gassho,
Nick
SatLah

Sorry for going over 3 sentences

[nknibbs]

Dee - I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue that killing animals doesn't cause suffering. At the same time, I think the point is that we are part of this circle of life. Also at the same time, a lot of the animals that are raised for food live a lot longer than if they were "murdered" in the wild by a predator. I'm not justifying factory farming at all by the way. But we are part of nature, and we are also animals, and we eat animals.

Everything in this universe eats and gets eaten. Frankly, meat contains so much bio-available nutrition not matched by any plant; that's why I eat meat. Now, I understand that anyone who chooses to eat vegetarian or vegan is choosing that path to reduce suffering. I get it, but to me eating is more of a nutritional matter point blank. My diet is very, very disciplined and I don't "live to eat". I eat for nutrition most of the time.

I don't hunt because of time, similar to how I don't farm or build my own house or make my own clothing. If that was my career path, I would absolutely hunt.

I have a high degree of respect for animals that I eat and I have a high degree of gratitude that I can even eat (to Kyonin's point); it's ridiculous that I have to worry more about what to eat or not eat than having to worry about survival. it's an incredibly fortunate position.

Again - I don't know that we can convince each other here on an internet forum to be either vegetarian, vegan or carnivore and I don't know that we should.

I just think the key points are: 1. anyone's choice is there own (thank you Kokuu), 2. although a lot of buddhists tend toward vegetarianism/veganism that isn't a core part of buddhism; so if it's your way of eating that's great, if not that's great and, most importantly, 3. let's not judge each other for what we eat; I think it tends to be divisive and turns into the holier than thou routine - it is not helpful to me in anyway; it's not helpful to you. If you don't eat meat - you have your reasons - and I think it's very egotistical of me to think I can convince you of the "proper way". And I would expect that same

I am not in any way in support of veganism or vegetarianism as much as I'm sure many people here aren't in favor of a mostly animal based diet. Great - beyond that - this just devolves into a religious discussion about what to eat vs not to eat.

Can we just all eat what we want and leave it at that without all this demagoguery?

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

Nick
SatLah

[Meitou]

Dee - I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue that killing animals doesn't cause suffering. At the same time, I think the point is that we are part of this circle of life. Also at the same time, a lot of the animals that are raised for food live a lot longer than if they were "murdered" in the wild by a predator. I'm not justifying factory farming at all by the way. But we are part of nature, and we are also animals, and we eat animals.

Everything in this universe eats and gets eaten. Frankly, meat contains so much bio-available nutrition not matched by any plant; that's why I eat meat. Now, I understand that anyone who chooses to eat vegetarian or vegan is choosing that path to reduce suffering. I get it, but to me eating is more of a nutritional matter point blank. My diet is very, very disciplined and I don't "live to eat". I eat for nutrition most of the time.

I don't hunt because of time, similar to how I don't farm or build my own house or make my own clothing. If that was my career path, I would absolutely hunt.

I have a high degree of respect for animals that I eat and I have a high degree of gratitude that I can even eat (to Kyonin's point); it's ridiculous that I have to worry more about what to eat or not eat than having to worry about survival. it's an incredibly fortunate position.

Again - I don't know that we can convince each other here on an internet forum to be either vegetarian, vegan or carnivore and I don't know that we should.

I just think the key points are: 1. anyone's choice is there own (thank you Kokuu), 2. although a lot of buddhists tend toward vegetarianism/veganism that isn't a core part of buddhism; so if it's your way of eating that's great, if not that's great and, most importantly, 3. let's not judge each other for what we eat; I think it tends to be divisive and turns into the holier than thou routine - it is not helpful to me in anyway; it's not helpful to you. If you don't eat meat - you have your reasons - and I think it's very egotistical of me to think I can convince you of the "proper way". And I would expect that same

I am not in any way in support of veganism or vegetarianism as much as I'm sure many people here aren't in favor of a mostly animal based diet. Great - beyond that - this just devolves into a religious discussion about what to eat vs not to eat.

Can we just all eat what we want and leave it at that without all this demagoguery?

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

Brilliant post Risho
Gassho
Plant based Meitou
Sattoday lah

[Risho]

hahaahah Dee - you are right! Also, I apologize - this topic triggers me. hahahahah good practice

Gassho

Rish
-stlah

PS -> apologies for going over 3 sentences in previous post

[Jakuden]

With respect Kyonin, you don't mean to imply that eating a lettuce is ethically the same as eating an animal, do you?
I think this argument can too easily be used as an excuse to ignore the suffering that is caused when eating meat.
Yes we all feed on life, but some things cause even more suffering than others - and while cruelty free is impossible for anyone (even vegans) it doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

Gassho,
Dee
Sat today / LAH



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There can be different viewpoints on this without any of those viewpoints being an “excuse.” It’s ok to disagree, but not to invalidate another’s interpretation of the precepts.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Eikyo]

hahaahah Dee - you are right! Also, I apologize - this topic triggers me. hahahahah good practice

Gassho

Rish
-stlah

PS -> apologies for going over 3 sentences in previous post

Gassho Risho!!

Dee
Sat/LAH

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