Moving from a selfish practice to practice for all

[Jundo]

I wouldn't expect that anyone could enlighten someone else anymore than they could pump someone else's blood for them but only mention the interlinked nature of existence because in my original comment on this particular thread I mentioned the possibility that personal liberation from dukkha could have positive ripple effects on those we are around (therefore solving some of the dichotomy between self-centered and selfless practice).

We agree there. Freedom from Dukkha ... being less bound by excess desire, anger, jealousy and other divided thinking ... will tend to make me act in ways less harmful to others. Furthermore, it may/should give rise to compassion, and a concern to help those others, including by helping them learn and practice Buddhism!

But what it cannot do is cause those others to be free of Dukkha until they realize so themselves between their own ears. A teacher can point them to the Zafu, a book, a teaching, some other technique ... but their self must free itself for itself.

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

We agree there. Freedom from Dukkha ... being less bound by excess desire, anger, jealousy and other divided thinking ... will tend to make me act in ways less harmful to others. Furthermore, it may/should give rise to compassion, and a concern to help those others, including by helping them learn and practice Buddhism!

But what it cannot do is cause those others to be free of Dukkha until they realize so themselves between their own ears. A teacher can point them to the Zafu, a book, a teaching, some other technique ... but their self must free itself for itself.

Gassho, J

STLah

Yes. And now that I understand your particular use of the term dukkha (I have read many books and listened to many teachings that ascribed to it many shades of meaning) I know I agree with your thought as well.

There are ripple effects on the top of the ocean but everyone has to deal with the sea floor in themselves by themselves.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

The one exception I have pondered for a book I am writing, something that may come with future (not so far future) technology, would be machines and pharmaceuticals that cause people to realize "no self," to be free of Dukkha, when administered ... whether the people want to be so or not, to undergo the treatment or not.

In other words (I am ethically against this, by the way, just to be clear), can I make people free of Dukkha and "enlightened" against their will?

I believe that it could be technically possible, but in fact, what you still would be doing is changing what is happening between the ears of the individual by use of the machine or drug.

(By the way, the solution I proposed in my book to the ethical issue is to make the experience of liberation and freedom from Dukkha so nice for people that, on word of mouth, they will choose to undergo the procedures voluntarily, totally of their own free will, because it leaves them healthier and more content. They will willingly choose to undergo the change, without compulsion of any kind, for the same reason that people choose anything in the marketplace which makes them feel better, same as for a new pair of shoes at the mall or cosmetic surgery or an ice cream cone on a hot day. I also foresee them voluntarily choosing treatments which leave them more peaceful, more altruistic, less violent and the like for the same reasons ... the treatments leave them physically healthier and feeling better about themselves.)

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

The one exception I have pondered for a book I am writing, something that may come with future (not so far future) technology, would be machines and pharmaceuticals that cause people to realize "no self," to be free of Dukkha, when administered ... whether the people want to be so or not, to undergo the treatment or not.

In other words (I am ethically against this, by the way, just to be clear), can I make people free of Dukkha and "enlightened" against their will?

I believe that it could be technically possible, but in fact, what you still would be doing is changing what is happening between the ears of the individual by use of the machine or drug.

(By the way, the solution I proposed in my book to the ethical issue is to make the experience of liberation and freedom from Dukkha so nice for people that, on word of mouth, they will choose to undergo the procedures voluntarily, totally of their own free will, because it leaves them healthier and more content. They will willingly choose to undergo the change, without compulsion of any kind, for the same reason that people choose anything in the marketplace which makes them feel better, same as for a new pair of shoes at the mall or cosmetic surgery or an ice cream cone on a hot day. I also foresee them voluntarily choosing treatments which leave them more peaceful, more altruistic, less violent and the like for the same reasons ... the treatments leave them physically healthier and feeling better about themselves.)

Gassho, J

STLah

Psychedelics probably wouldn't quite fit into the kind of situation you're talking about, yet when the right causes and conditions are in place the seeker and the trip certainly can become one in a sort of entheogenic satori. One way in which this can be productive (and not just something that happened) is in reflecting on what was different in the moment of release, such as, giving up control, not looping around the default network of habit-force thoughts, recognizing "big mind", etc. The problem of integrating and enacting such insights in that case seems to me to be similar whether it is realized in a sober or not-so-sober way.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

I'm note talking about psychedelics, but rather alterations to the DNA leading to changes in brain structure, nano-implants to regulate brain firings, chemical regulation of our most harmful addictions, damaging emotions and destructive drives, all to reduce our tendencies toward violence, to make us more charitable and empathetic, less generally selfish, and to soften the brain created borders of the "self/other" divide and the like.

Anyway, we are way off topic here ... You will just have to wait and someday read in the future my book about all this called: "ZEN of the FUTURE!"

I am generally against psychedelics (although I understand that people may experiment at certain times in life). Psychedelics do more harm than good. Zen practice is a day by day integration of wisdom and insight into our life, and some quick "trips" don't do that ... and may lead us down totally the wrong paths too.

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

I'm note talking about psychedelics, but rather alterations to the DNA leading to changes in brain structure, nano-implants to regulate brain firings, chemical regulation of our most harmful addictions, damaging emotions and destructive drives, all to reduce our tendencies toward violence, to make us more charitable and empathetic, less generally selfish, and to soften the brain created borders of the "self/other" divide and the like.

Anyway, we are way off topic here ... You will just have to wait and someday read in the future my book about all this called: "ZEN of the FUTURE!"

I am generally against psychedelics (although I understand that people may experiment at certain times in life). Psychedelics do more harm than good. Zen practice is a day by day integration of wisdom and insight into our life, and some quick "trips" don't do that ... and may lead us down totally the wrong paths too.

Gassho, J

STLah

"Zen of the Future" sounds truly Sci-fi, which is to say, a possible future for all we know.
I understand some people have had harm from entheogens, nevertheless my experiences have been overwhelmingly positive. Back in my days of having a time of that sort of thing I was convinced of their being some redeeming value there because of the widespread use of these kinds of plants across varied lands by many cultures.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

"Zen of the Future" sounds truly Sci-fi, which is to say, a possible future for all we know.
I understand some people have had harm from entheogens, nevertheless my experiences have been overwhelmingly positive. Back in my days of having a time of that sort of thing I was convinced of their being some redeeming value there because of the widespread use of these kinds of plants across varied lands by many cultures.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

Generally, they are disfavored in Zen Buddhism (there are a few teachers who seem to make exceptions). Certainly, they are not to be taken during Zazen or other times of practice.

Experiences with such substances can demonstrate to us much about how the mind creates realities, but it is not Zen practice. It is no more Zen practice than taking such substances will turn one into an airplane pilot, and most especially, we do not want to be taking them while piloting a plane. So, they are certainly not part of our practice in this Sangha.

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

Generally, they are disfavored in Zen Buddhism (there are a few teachers who seem to make exceptions). Certainly, they are not to be taken during Zazen or other times of practice.

Experiences with such substances can demonstrate to us much about how the mind creates realities, but it is not Zen practice. It is no more Zen practice than taking such substances will turn one into an airplane pilot, and most especially, we do not want to be taking them while piloting a plane. So, they are certainly not part of our practice in this Sangha.

Gassho, J

STLah

Oh it's definitely not Zen practice although it was the practice of a large portion of our human ancestors before the advent of priestly religions. If there are correspondences between the two it is only inasmuch as there can be more than one way to a similar point of view.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

Anyway, enough chit chat.

Time to chop some wood and fetch water.

Thanks for the interesting little conversation, AJ.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Inshin]

Touched by below post by Horin in the other thread on Rapturous samadhi



My practice is selfish (judging my zazen on focus, worrying if it is "working", no compassion in real life, would never give away my zazen "progress" to others) for my own liberation despite all vows I say daily. What tips do others have for really being a selfless student and not minding taking the last place in the queue

Gassho,
Sam
ST

I think that shining awareness onto something has a great potential to transform it. On a daily basis I try to pay attention whenever I become egoistic, cling to something or put defenses on, and if I'm successful at noticing it I ask myself : how can I be more generous in this situation. This opening up can be something very small, like deciding to give away your time and attention to someone when all you want to do is to shut off and scroll down the Facebook. The often we have those awareness and tiny "generosity" moments the more we change and become more open to other scientent beings.
I guess.
Gassho
Sat

[Inshin]

I'm note talking about psychedelics, but rather alterations to the DNA leading to changes in brain structure, nano-implants to regulate brain firings, chemical regulation of our most harmful addictions, damaging emotions and destructive drives, all to reduce our tendencies toward violence, to make us more charitable and empathetic, less generally selfish, and to soften the brain created borders of the "self/other" divide and the like.

Anyway, we are way off topic here ... You will just have to wait and someday read in the future my book about all this called: "ZEN of the FUTURE!"

I am generally against psychedelics (although I understand that people may experiment at certain times in life). Psychedelics do more harm than good. Zen practice is a day by day integration of wisdom and insight into our life, and some quick "trips" don't do that ... and may lead us down totally the wrong paths too.

Gassho, J

STLah

I am sorry, I feel like I'm putting a stick in the ants nest here. There's has been a lot of scientific research on how psilocybin found in "magic mushrooms" can help treat clinical depression by changing the structure of the brain. In a similar way long term meditation changes the brain waves. I believe though that Zen is much more than Kensho, or a "trip into the nature of the universe". Hakuin wrote a bit about wasted Satoris, because some masters got "Zen sickness" and couldn't realise the Way in ordinary daily life.
Gassho
Sat

[Inshin]

For instance, you've mentioned the atrocities committed by Chogyam Trungpa before. It would be wrong to say that the harm was only in the heads of the victims.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

I'm reading a book now by Chogyam Trungpa, I wasn't aware of any atrocities he committed?
Gassho
Sat

[Jundo]

I am sorry, I feel like I'm putting a stick in the ants nest here. There's has been a lot of scientific research on how psilocybin found in "magic mushrooms" can help treat clinical depression by changing the structure of the brain. ....

...

I'm reading a book now by Chogyam Trungpa, I wasn't aware of any atrocities he committed?

I am very interested in this research that has been ongoing for a few years now, and it seems that psilocybin experiences in a clinical setting have been shown to have very positive effects on the mental health of those with terminal diseases. I am not opposed to such uses at all. Here is one example:

Johns Hopkins Study of Psilocybin in Cancer Patient
https://maps.org/other-psychedelic-r...ancer_patients

For point of reference and self-disclosure, I experimented "back in the 70's" with a bit of this and that, although never to the point that it took over my life or seemed to cause me any harm. I value the experiences, which were lessons on the power of the mind. I am not opposed to some experimentation at certain points in life. But, as you say, that is not Zen practice, which is also "mind eye opening," but also totally down to earth and ordinary in our day to day living. We do not need any mind altering substances apart from Zazen and our practice.

And speaking of the harmful effects of drugs and alcohol ... Trungpa is a case study. I think that he was a sociopath and narcissist (all while teaching lessons on "non-ego"), in addition to being a sex and drug addict. He had some brilliant insights, and he was charismatic, but his behavior did not match the words. His successors in that organization, right down to current times, have exhibited like behavior. I risk violating the Precept on not criticizing other Buddhists in their failings, but I mean to do so as a lesson on what can go wrong in a Buddhist group. The following is worth reading:

https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/enco...dhist-america/

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

I'm reading a book now by Chogyam Trungpa, I wasn't aware of any atrocities he committed?
Gassho
Sat

Some of his stuff is a decent spiritual exercise to read independent of his faults. With certain gifts and opportunities people can deliver some gems and at the same time not necessarily be a very good person or someone you would want to trust yourself to. I've never gotten close to seeing the messed up side of Shambhala in person although I did attend regularly for a year while knowing (because of avid reading) that it was there.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

I am very interested in this research that has been ongoing for a few years now, and it seems that psilocybin experiences in a clinical setting have been shown to have very positive effects on the mental health of those with terminal diseases. I am not opposed to such uses at all. Here is one example:

Johns Hopkins Study of Psilocybin in Cancer Patient
https://maps.org/other-psychedelic-r...ancer_patients

For point of reference and self-disclosure, I experimented "back in the 70's" with a bit of this and that, although never to the point that it took over my life or seemed to cause me any harm. I value the experiences, which were lessons on the power of the mind. I am not opposed to some experimentation at certain points in life. But, as you say, that is not Zen practice, which is also "mind eye opening," but also totally down to earth and ordinary in our day to day living. We do not need any mind altering substances apart from Zazen and our practice.

And speaking of the harmful effects of drugs and alcohol ... Trungpa is a case study. I think that he was a sociopath and narcissist (all while teaching lessons on "non-ego"), in addition to being a sex and drug addict. He had some brilliant insights, and he was charismatic, but his behavior did not match the words. His successors in that organization, right down to current times, have exhibited like behavior. I risk violating the Precept on not criticizing other Buddhists in their failings, but I mean to do so as a lesson on what can go wrong in a Buddhist group. The following is worth reading:

https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/enco...dhist-america/

Gassho, J

STLah

From cacti, to fungi, to various sorts of plants and animals including toads, the widespread proliferation in nature of such resources along with the medicinal/mystical value placed on them by many ancient cultures was enough for me personally to investigate. I know for myself it always came down to how those experiences would effect the way I think, feel and live so there wasn't any need to stay there all the time. One of the many consistent psychedelic impressions I received was that the mundane is profound and the profound is mundane... not Zen but Zen enough for me.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

.... the mundane is profound and the profound is mundane... Zen enough

mundane profound profound mundane ...

Now, just put all that stuff down and simply sit Zazen.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Bion]

mundane profound profound mundane ...

Now, just put all that stuff down and simply sit Zazen.

Gassho, J

STLah

Funny how that is the hardest part to do for so many of us... just let mind drop off, body drop off and sit. There is no debate in sitting, no winning an argument, no showing off of knowledge, no merit, no wisdom or foolishness. What do they call it?! Good for nothing

SatToday lah

[A.J.]

mundane profound profound mundane ...

Now, just put all that stuff down and simply sit Zazen.

Gassho, J

STLah

Having a regular practice of sitting that's pretty much what happens. Nevertheless there are many facets of life to be interested in which I happily allow. I enjoy poetry and therefore I enjoy the communication of insights through words.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

Funny how that is the hardest part to do for so many of us... just let mind drop off, body drop off and sit. There is no debate in sitting, no winning an argument, no showing off of knowledge, no merit, no wisdom or foolishness. What do they call it?! Good for nothing

SatToday lah

Nevertheless if that was all of life there would be no exchange in dialogue, be it discussion of differences in thought or otherwise. Buddhism shouldn't be a just-sit echo chamber just because just-sitting is the meditation practice.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Bion]

Nevertheless if that was all of life there would be no exchange in dialogue, be it discussion of differences in thought or otherwise. Buddhism shouldn't be a just-sit echo chamber just because just-sitting is the meditation practice.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

I think there is more life without exchange in dialogue than the other way around. Buddhism means walking the path of enlightenment and I don’t think that can be equated with endless debating and bickering and forming of opinions and concepts although discussions and exchanges of ideas certainly has its place. Shikantaza is not really meditation practice since we don’t spend the time we’re sitting neither pondering ideas and concepts, nor visualizing things with the goal of achieving something.

SatToday

[nknibbs]

I think there is more life without exchange in dialogue than the other way around. Buddhism means walking the path of enlightenment and I don’t think that can be equated with endless debating and bickering and forming of opinions and concepts although discussions and exchanges of ideas certainly has its place. Shikantaza is not really meditation practice since we don’t spend the time we’re sitting neither pondering ideas and concepts, nor visualizing things with the goal of achieving something.

SatToday

Well said. The deeper you go into the philosophy, the further you can find yourself from practice (though not always of course).

Gassho,
Nick

Sat

[Geika]

I am very interested in this research that has been ongoing for a few years now, and it seems that psilocybin experiences in a clinical setting have been shown to have very positive effects on the mental health of those with terminal diseases. I am not opposed to such uses at all. Here is one example:

Johns Hopkins Study of Psilocybin in Cancer Patient
https://maps.org/other-psychedelic-r...ancer_patients

For point of reference and self-disclosure, I experimented "back in the 70's" with a bit of this and that, although never to the point that it took over my life or seemed to cause me any harm. I value the experiences, which were lessons on the power of the mind. I am not opposed to some experimentation at certain points in life. But, as you say, that is not Zen practice, which is also "mind eye opening," but also totally down to earth and ordinary in our day to day living. We do not need any mind altering substances apart from Zazen and our practice.

And speaking of the harmful effects of drugs and alcohol ... Trungpa is a case study. I think that he was a sociopath and narcissist (all while teaching lessons on "non-ego"), in addition to being a sex and drug addict. He had some brilliant insights, and he was charismatic, but his behavior did not match the words. His successors in that organization, right down to current times, have exhibited like behavior. I risk violating the Precept on not criticizing other Buddhists in their failings, but I mean to do so as a lesson on what can go wrong in a Buddhist group. The following is worth reading:

https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/enco...dhist-america/

Gassho, J

STLah

I can personally attest to the benefits of a supplement of very small, unnoticeable doses of psilocybin, but I do not recommend anybody doing anything illegal, or for the sake of "enlightenment." I can only hope that when good medicine is discovered, it is used to help people that need it, whatever the societal or religious norms dictate.

Gassho
Sat today, lah

[A.J.]

I think there is more life without exchange in dialogue than the other way around. Buddhism means walking the path of enlightenment and I don’t think that can be equated with endless debating and bickering and forming of opinions and concepts although discussions and exchanges of ideas certainly has its place. Shikantaza is not really meditation practice since we don’t spend the time we’re sitting neither pondering ideas and concepts, nor visualizing things with the goal of achieving something.

SatToday

That's fine, but I happen to disagree and consider that a spiritual form of cop-out that isn't quite healthy in it's own way.
Also, there are different forms of meditation and some forms are more formless than others, but they are still basically meditation.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

Well said. The deeper you go into the philosophy, the further you can find yourself from practice (though not always of course).

Gassho,
Nick

Sat

Ironically, this sounds like a radical form of dualism to me. Also, this kind of thinking is no better than the anti-intellectual ignorance of a fundamentalist Christian.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

I even think there is more value in discussing differences than similarities. When there is a difference in thought or feeling it provokes encounter and whether you feel disgruntled by it or not is your choice. If all that is happening is everyone is echoing everyone else then you may just as easily be talking with yourself- I prefer to encounter.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[nknibbs]

Ironically, this sounds like a radical form of dualism to me. Also, this kind of thinking is no better than the anti-intellectual ignorance of a fundamentalist Christian.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

Hopefully, you are not responding in this way because you are feeling attacked. If you are, I am sorry and I meant no harm in the statement you are replying to. And with respect to that statement I believe you have read too much into it. You mention the idea of the encounter. When Buddha twirled a flower in front of his followers and only Mahakasyapa smiled, Buddha named him as his dharma successor. He did so not because this man grasped the intellectual intricacies better than the others. He reacted authentically to the reality of the situation with embodied wisdom. There was no duality, there was oneness, clarity.

Furthermore, Buddhism is largely about conduct. To embody the philosophy. To react authentically and with compassion to the world around us.

I acknowledge the use of philosophy and enjoy studying Buddhism from that angle but I don’t get bogged down by it. I appreciate your steadfast devotion to the intellect and to practice, my friend. I leave you to your thoughts.

Gassho,
Nick
Sat

[A.J.]

Hopefully, you are not responding in this way because you are feeling attacked. If you are, I am sorry and I meant no harm in the statement you are replying to. And with respect to that statement I believe you have read too much into it. You mention the idea of the encounter. When Buddha twirled a flower in front of his followers and only Mahakasyapa smiled, Buddha named him as his dharma successor. He did so not because this man grasped the intellectual intricacies better than the others. He reacted authentically to the reality of the situation with embodied wisdom. There was no duality, there was oneness, clarity.

Furthermore, Buddhism is largely about conduct. To embody the philosophy. To react authentically and with compassion to the world around us.

I acknowledge the use of philosophy and enjoy studying Buddhism from that angle but I don’t get bogged down by it. I appreciate your steadfast devotion to the intellect and to practice, my friend. I leave you to your thoughts.

Gassho,
Nick
Sat

Never felt attacked at any point. Just stating my opinion on Buddhist anti-intellectualism point-blank. And keeping to three sentences.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Risho]

....
When Buddha twirled a flower in front of his followers and only Mahakasyapa smiled, Buddha named him as his dharma successor. He did so not because this man grasped the intellectual intricacies better than the others. He reacted authentically to the reality of the situation with embodied wisdom. There was no duality, there was oneness, clarity.
...,,
Gassho,
Nick
Sat

This is a total sidetopic but an interesting one; that story, while very romantic, may be a big ruse; in fact, it may be more political in nature; apparently Mahakyasapa had quite a large following; if you haven’t read it, check out Stephen Batchelor’s “After Buddhism”. I have a feeling dharma transmission is sometimes more about a teaching or way to keep the dharma alive rather than about the individual receiving what they already have: Hui Neng (6th patriarch) may be another example of this.

gassho

rish
-st

[Kokuu]

The deeper you go into the philosophy, the further you can find yourself from practice (though not always of course).

I think Nick makes a good point here, and clarifies by saying "not always so".

While we do not want to endorse anti-intellectual Zen, which sadly I have seen too much, as if Dōgen and other teachers didn't leave us a virtual Mount Sumeru of written teachings, we also do not want to encourage over-intellectualising either. There is a time to study and discuss and a time to sit.


As far as Chögyam Trugpa goes, I sometimes practice with a sangha that is led by one of Trungpa's students and, in my opinion, Trungpa left us with some of the clearest and most insightful writing on practice in the last hundred years of Buddhism. However, he clearly violated many precepts and his "Crazy Wisdom" was not just for the benefit of others. But as I say he gave us some great written teachings and several excellent students such as Pema Chödrön and Reggie Ray. But, none of that excuses his behaviour and harm.

This short piece summarises some of his life: https://boulderbuddhistscam.wordpres...ogyam-trungpa/


Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[nknibbs]

This is a total sidetopic but an interesting one; that story, while very romantic, may be a big ruse; in fact, it may be more political in nature; apparently Mahakyasapa had quite a large following; if you haven’t read it, check out Stephen Batchelor’s “After Buddhism”. I have a feeling dharma transmission is sometimes more about a teaching or way to keep the dharma alive rather than about the individual receiving what they already have: Hui Neng (6th patriarch) may be another example of this.

gassho

rish
-st

Risho,

I am aware of that aspect to the story but I will definitely check out the text you mentioned!

Though a ruse, it can still be a rose of a teaching. Isn’t everything a bit of a ruse?

Gassho,
Nick

SatLah

PS: I always love a good reading recommendation!

[Risho]

Though a ruse, it can still be a rose of a teaching. Isn’t everything a bit of a ruse?

yes, I think that’s true! hahahaha

[Kokuu]

apparently Mahakyasapa had quite a large following

Hui Neng (6th patriarch) may be another example of this.

Mahākāśyapa was clearly an important figure in early Buddhism, and is believed to have led the early sangha following the Buddha's death. However, many scholars feel that his qualities were considerably embellished in later records in order to instill within him the ideal qualities of Buddhism and the sangha itself. I imagine this would have been necessary to show that there were individuals of a comparable stature to the Buddha able to continue the tradition.

In Ch'an and Zen, the story of the holding up the flower is likely to be apocryphal but displays something important about about tradition and way of teaching which is, to my mind, more important that whether it is literally true or not.

This is also the case with the Sixth Patriarch, whose story in the Platform Sutra now seems to be near total hagiography rather than biography, written by one of his students in order to cement the place of his lineage as the true line of Zen against that of the 'Northern School'.

In the development of Ch'an (Zen) in China, there were many different Buddhist schools vying against each other for position so being able to establish a clear lineage dating back to the Buddha was important, and also establishing the authenticity of your own lineage.

However, I do think that dharma transmission is not a bad way of authorising new teachers and providing some degree of legitimacy, even if we know that can be abused sometimes. It also is, to me, a very lovely symbolic way of a teacher recognising the fact that you have grasped the great matter of life and death.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Risho]

Damn Kokuu - that was awesome thank you! I absolutely didn't want to disparage the idea of dharma transmission; I'm just trying to be terse (hint, hint ) it is an important facet and hopefully provides some modicum of QA against bad teachers; no system is infallible but still.

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

[Kokuu]

I'm just trying to be terse (hint, hint )

Ha! Yes, I totally acknowledge my failure on that front!

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[nknibbs]

Kokuu and Risho— wonderful back and forth between you, much knowledge gained.

Sticking to 3 lines and saying that one feels one needs to say is a tough but humbling experience.

Thank you both,

Gassho,
Nick

SatLah

[Shōnin Risa Bear]

Right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right samadhi can be summed up, one might say, as right action, a program of compassionate co-existence, underpinned by the right actions of mindfulness/samadhi.

When I noticed that while I am sitting in "silence" harm toward others seems to be reduced, I began to sit more.

Selfish/not selfish. _()_

gassho
shonin sat today and some lah

[Tairin]

However, I do think that dharma transmission is not a bad way of authorising new teachers and providing some degree of legitimacy, even if we know that can be abused sometimes. It also is, to me, a very lovely symbolic way of a teacher recognising the fact that you have grasped the great matter of life and death.

Dharma Transmission is as close to a teaching certificate as one can get. Personally I don’t care whether Jundo can trace his creds all the way back to Shakyamuni Buddha or not. I do care that he has put in the time and that there is some recognition that he knows what he’s talking about.


Tairin
Sat today and lah

[A.J.]

This is a total sidetopic but an interesting one; that story, while very romantic, may be a big ruse; in fact, it may be more political in nature; apparently Mahakyasapa had quite a large following; if you haven’t read it, check out Stephen Batchelor’s “After Buddhism”. I have a feeling dharma transmission is sometimes more about a teaching or way to keep the dharma alive rather than about the individual receiving what they already have: Hui Neng (6th patriarch) may be another example of this.

gassho

rish
-st

Lot's of scholars think Bodhidharma was legendary as well. With the ancient motivations around such legitimization I tend to take it for granted that official lineages are fabricated when you go back far enough. That's not to say that the stories and writings connected with legendary figures are not of value though.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

I think Nick makes a good point here, and clarifies by saying "not always so".

While we do not want to endorse anti-intellectual Zen, which sadly I have seen too much, as if Dōgen and other teachers didn't leave us a virtual Mount Sumeru of written teachings, we also do not want to encourage over-intellectualising either. There is a time to study and discuss and a time to sit.


As far as Chögyam Trugpa goes, I sometimes practice with a sangha that is led by one of Trungpa's students and, in my opinion, Trungpa left us with some of the clearest and most insightful writing on practice in the last hundred years of Buddhism. However, he clearly violated many precepts and his "Crazy Wisdom" was not just for the benefit of others. But as I say he gave us some great written teachings and several excellent students such as Pema Chödrön and Reggie Ray. But, none of that excuses his behaviour and harm.

This short piece summarises some of his life: https://boulderbuddhistscam.wordpres...ogyam-trungpa/


Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

I basically don't trust any anti-intellectual tendencies in religion. I only meant to be clear and terse that it always smells to me like the beginning of a bad recipe. When formally sitting there is no need to be thinking critically all the time but it it is an invaluable tool in the hands of monkeys with the apparatus of thought.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

Risho,

I am aware of that aspect to the story but I will definitely check out the text you mentioned!

Though a ruse, it can still be a rose of a teaching. Isn’t everything a bit of a ruse?

Gassho,
Nick

SatLah

PS: I always love a good reading recommendation!

Imo most Buddha stories are a-historical so whatever we may gain from them isn't from their historical veracity or even their pure lack of political motivation.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

Mahākāśyapa was clearly an important figure in early Buddhism, and is believed to have led the early sangha following the Buddha's death. However, many scholars feel that his qualities were considerably embellished in later records in order to instill within him the ideal qualities of Buddhism and the sangha itself. I imagine this would have been necessary to show that there were individuals of a comparable stature to the Buddha able to continue the tradition.

In Ch'an and Zen, the story of the holding up the flower is likely to be apocryphal but displays something important about about tradition and way of teaching which is, to my mind, more important that whether it is literally true or not.

This is also the case with the Sixth Patriarch, whose story in the Platform Sutra now seems to be near total hagiography rather than biography, written by one of his students in order to cement the place of his lineage as the true line of Zen against that of the 'Northern School'.

In the development of Ch'an (Zen) in China, there were many different Buddhist schools vying against each other for position so being able to establish a clear lineage dating back to the Buddha was important, and also establishing the authenticity of your own lineage.

However, I do think that dharma transmission is not a bad way of authorising new teachers and providing some degree of legitimacy, even if we know that can be abused sometimes. It also is, to me, a very lovely symbolic way of a teacher recognising the fact that you have grasped the great matter of life and death.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

Ideally dharma transmission would not be the equivalent of something like apostolic succession although it is funny that the ancient rationale seems similar. Given that there probably isn't an unbroken line of dharma transmitters anywhere that may put a monkey wrench in the notion that anyone today has such a derived authority. The idea of learning from someone who knew because they learned from someone who knew seems basically good nevertheless.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

Right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right samadhi can be summed up, one might say, as right action, a program of compassionate co-existence, underpinned by the right actions of mindfulness/samadhi.

When I noticed that while I am sitting in "silence" harm toward others seems to be reduced, I began to sit more.

Selfish/not selfish. _()_

gassho
shonin sat today and some lah